Removal from a car

[Geoff]

I'm wondering what is the preferred way of removing an uncooperative suspect from a vehicle? I have been shown a number of locks and come-alongs that seem pretty complex, although undeniably effective when applied by an expert. In practice though, these seem far too complicated. Without giving my expereince (limited though it is)and biases I'm wondering what has worked for people within the protocols most LEOs work under.

Geoff

[mt2k]

Try this one..
Open door. With your left open hand---palm up-- push/strike the chin and push his head to the right. Then with your right hand, grab his hair. With a push/pull motion, ease him out of the car.

[DaveB]

One method shown to me by a former officer and JJ pioneer, Prof. Hank Gowdy (always give credit to those that came before) was the use of a pencil. Place the pencil in your fist, eraser side up, grab his ear with your thumb and place the pencil behind the ear, squeeze and twist.

Dave Boylan

[Bob Steinkraus]

Reach around the back of his head with your right hand. Hook your fingers in his nostrils and pull.

[INFINOO]

Geoff you ask a simple question. My answer is hold on there cowboy, before you go grabbing someone out of a car, be very carefull and cover some of the infinite possibilitys . Extracting someone from a veihical opens the door to many unknowns.
Take for instances the mental state of the driver, are they pissed off? What are are his/size ?. Are there other pasengers in the car? Where in the car are they?. Where is the vehical? Is it nexted to a busy road. If so the possibility of the suspect getting out really quick and pushing you into traffic? Or are you on dark empty street at night?

Before reaching in and grabbing the guy/girl. Have you considered the "real" possibility of a weapon being drawn with hand hidden from your line of sight. Maby its hidden under the suspects leg? Hidden in the door, under the seat. If you reach into a car now your bent over with you face open for a clear shot/thrust.
Say you Grab his hand on the steering wheel and the other hand reaches down grabs a knife and cuts your wrist severing your tendons. Now what?
Can you get to your gun now ? or your radio?
Or even if you get a suspects hand in a joint lock where is that other hand? As he is being pulled out of the car? Are you alone or do you have cover , if so is he/she armed? Are they in the proper position to back you up if the sh*t hits the fan?.
Consider the car may be a truck and the suspect may be at a much higher elevation than you. One of my students is a vehical inspection officer and approaching big vehical poses special problems.
Or as my student says when they open the door "there foot is level with my face". :eek:
In this case we worked out a plan of him standing off to side and more to the rear to do interveiws. Not perfect but better than right in front of the door.
Other things to consider.Are you armed with and if so with what? Pocket stick, pocket knife, baton pepper spray, stun gun, gun? Are you trained to in there use.


"If you want to get a snake out of a hole use someone else's arm"

Regards

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

[George Ledyard]

Probably the most comon situation is the driver who holds tigh to the steering wheel and refuses to comply with your instructions. A very nice and not very difficult combination of technques is to apply a joint compression to either one of the fingers or to the thumb in order to break the grip on the steering wheel. Then shift into the straight wirst lock (aikido sankyo) nad lock the subject up tight. Instruct the subject to undo his seat belt, if he fails to comply use the lock for pain compliance. When he does undo the seat belt slip it up to your own arm and then regrip as you slip it off your arm. Then step back and draw the subject out of the car. If the subject by some chance draws a weapon wuth his opposite hand you can cause him serious problems with this lock.

[INFINOO]

George Ledyard: I like the part where you ask him to undo his seat belt. Very aiki.

Geoff: I didnt mean to come come across like a paronoid with all the talk getting pushed into traffic and so forth. Just be carefull. Have you looked into the humble little pocket stick and the tech to go along with it?.

Regards


Gregory Rogalsky

[sung ho cheung]

nah, simply drop a skunk/snake onto the miscreant's lap - and once they are out of the vehicle, then apply an 'attention-getting' nikyo / sankyo / yonkyo! ;)

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by INFINOO
George Ledyard: I like the part where you ask him to undo his seat belt. Very aiki.

Geoff: I didnt mean to come come across like a paronoid with all the talk getting pushed into traffic and so forth. Just be carefull. Have you looked into the humble little pocket stick and the tech to go along with it?.

Regards


Gregory Rogalsky
Actually I mentioned the seat belt because it is the place at which a lot of officers put themselves at risk by reaching across a subject that isn't complying. If the subject doesn't comply by undoinghis own seat blet he gets a big dose of pain compliance.

[Geoff]

Geoff: I didnt mean to come come across like a paronoid with all the talk getting pushed into traffic and so forth. Just be carefull. Have you looked into the humble little pocket stick and the tech to go along with it?.

No worries. I do carry a kubotan and have used it in a very basic way - as the driver was seated I held his shoulder with my left hand and placed the stick in his TMJ with my right. With a little pressure the guy came right out of the car. I posted the question though because I was reviewing an old incident with a buddy who just completed our state's DT instructor course. I cringed and he cringed at this story:

A drunk female has locked herself in a running car on pier at about 10:00am (with kids and tourists all around). I knew her from a previous incident and was sent to deal with her. Eventually things escalated (bad war story cut short here) and it ended up that I dove for the ignition from the passnger side so the car wouldn't go in the drink while my 300# boss reached around her thighs and ripped her from the car. Not pretty, not safe and not something I relish doing again.

As I recall that story I still cringe with embarassment. All of your comments have been helpful (with the possble exception of the secret skunk technique).

Geoff Wingard

[sung ho cheung]

Ah, the 'secret skunk technique' - yeah, my apologies for that. :rolleyes:


I do carry a kubotan and have used it in a very basic way - as the driver was seated I held his shoulder with my left hand and placed the stick in his TMJ with my right. With a little pressure the guy came right out of the car.

What's a kubotan? And what / where is a TMJ?

PS If these are secret techniques, I will understand if you can't reveal them! ;)

[sung ho cheung]

Okay, since discovered what a kubotan is...

Which leads to another question: kubotan vs. yawari stick - which is the preferred option?

[Geoff]

My understanding is that the yawara and kubotan are fairly similar. The kubotan was popularized by karate teacher Tak Kubota and usually has a keychain attached to one end. There are civilian and police training videos available, but most techniques seem to be common sense.

Geoff Wingard

[Carlos Estrella]

I've been following this thread with interest, since I spent quite a few years "removing" unruly U.S. Marines from vehicles as an MP in the Corps. I've seen references here to the use of kubotans (great tools, by the way) and pencils, etc. being used to assist in extracting people from vehicles, and I offer these comments:

Many departments (ESPECIALLY the U.S. Marine Corps Military Police) PROHIBIT using unauthorized tools, implements or techniques to apply force (which is what you are doing when you forcibly remove someone from a vehicle). If your department doesn't issue or allow kubotans, then you are forced to use either an empty handed technique, your baton or PR24, or a chemical spray.

Forgive my "court-induced" caution, but I know all too well the dangers of using techniques that are "unauthorized." It pays to play it safe, both technique-wise and court defensibility wise.

(Also, Mr. Ledyard... LOVED your idea on how to respond with what is THE ONE SITUATION I ENCOUNTERED THE MOST DURING DUI arrests that I couldn't get the subject out of the car (at first).)

Regards,

Carlos

[joe yang]

Never mind, I thought we were going to discuss how to get people out of the back seat. Too much time in Corrections. Sorry. :D

[UtahNinpo]

Which leads to another question: kubotan vs. yawari stick - which is the preferred option?



Have you heard of a pocket stick fellas? Someone mentioned it earlier in this thread. If you chave ever had a pocketstick used on you, you would quickly do just about whatever they ask if they know how to use it. It is used for PAINFUL joint locks (which do more than just hurt the joint), pinch the skin (extremely painful when used by even the slightly trained), striking KYUSHO (weak points and nerves), and of course for striking or throwing at the eyes or face. It is a weapon that is easily concealed (POCKETstick)and though it looks kind of funny, it is a very efficient weapon to extend from your martial art skills.

:D

There is no secret except in the mind of the seeker