???Kesagake/Kisagake???

[DCPan]

Hi all,

Was reading "Secrets of the Samurai" yesterday.

The term "kisagake" came up again. Saw the same term spelled as "Kesagake" in "This is Kendo".

What is "kesagake"? Alt term for "kesagiri"?

Also, could never find that scene where Mifune off 8 people with 5 strokes in the movie as described by "This is Kendo" around page 30 something...

Any one know?

Thanks! :D

[Meik Skoss]

It's kEsagake, not kIsagake -- Watti and Lestblook can't spiel for sour owl poop, and they know even less when it comes to swordstuff or. for that matter, budo in general. (In my UNhumble opinion).

The movie scene is in either "Yojimbo" or "Sanjuro," if I recall the scene correctly (I think it's the latter), almost at the finish of the movie. The little boy samurettes drop their jaws in amazement at his casual brutality and efficiency, becoming even more overawed with Mifune's character than before. It's an interesting comment upon the presumed "character" of the bushi and, I reckon, likely to be an accurate one.

A modern instance of this disconnect between image and reality may be the study of GI permormance in the Korean War, showing that less than 20% of the U.S. troops actually fired their weapons at the enemy. I would be very interested to see it the same was true of troops in Viet Nam and Desert Storm, with an all-volunteer force (in the latter case).

[DCPan]

Originally posted by Meik Skoss
It's kEsagake, not kIsagake -- Watti and Lestblook can't spiel for sour owl poop, and they know even less when it comes to swordstuff or. for that matter, budo in general. (In my UNhumble opinion).


:D Figured...so...what IS Kesagake???

I'm just reading because I paid for it and should check it out before selling it again at Half-Priced Books :D

:D

[renfield_kuroda]

kesagake is another way of saying kesagiri, or diagonal cut.
Here's the kanji for those who can display:
kesagake=ŒU?¾Œœ‚¯
kesagiri=ŒU?¾Ža‚è

Note how the first half, kesa = diagonal, is the same.
giri=kiri (kiru)=cut, gake=kake (kakeru)="to hang; to construct; to sit; to offer (as a prize); to put (one's life) on the line"

Sidenote: in Mugairyu Iaihyodo we have five standing (running) forms called hashirigakari (‘–‚茜‚©‚è) hashiri=running

Regards,

renfield kuroda

[Aozora]

Y'know... I just saw Sanjuro theother day and wondered the same damn thing myself. I had my copy of this is kendo all out and ready and never saw it. Must be in Yojimbo...

[Aozora]

Originally posted by Meik Skoss

A modern instance of this disconnect between image and reality may be the study of GI permormance in the Korean War, showing that less than 20% of the U.S. troops actually fired their weapons at the enemy. I would be very interested to see it the same was true of troops in Viet Nam and Desert Storm, with an all-volunteer force (in the latter case).

Actually, the same study provoked the military to look at ways of making soliders accustomed to violence. One of the ways was to expose them to violent television and movies, and they found that in Vietnam, the firing rate was closer to 40-45 percent. An army colonel, whom I can't remember his name or his book, wrote about this and noticed the same violence that soldiers were exposed to was the same violence that children were seeing on TV. While further studies have shown the effect is mitigated by other influences on children, the results were damning evidence against utilizing the TV and VCR as babysitters.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread...

[DCPan]

Originally posted by renfield_kuroda
kesagake is another way of saying kesagiri, or diagonal cut.
Here's the kanji for those who can display:
kesagake=ŒU?¾Œœ‚¯
kesagiri=ŒU?¾Ža‚è



Thanks for the kanji...that clears it up rather quickly.

So, why, in both books, do they describe it as a "whip-like" strike?

David :D

[renfield_kuroda]

Can't comment about anything other than Mugairyu Iaihyodo, in which we say kesagiri not kesagake, and it means a daigonal cut about 30 degrees off center, cutting from the base of the neck/shoulder down through the torse and out just below the ribs on the other side.

We also have many variations in different kata, a few examples of which are
* Ryoguruma: single-handed draw and cut at a very oblique angle (almost horizontal) across the face (or wrist if the hands are up)
* No-okuri: single-handed deflection and quick slice across the artery in the neck
* Inchuyo: single-handed deflection followed by a powerful double-handed cut at a fairly oblique angle across the torso

There are many more, including an okuden kata in which one is walking and quickly draws, turns, and cuts 'whip-like' an opponent behind.

Regards,
renfield kuroda

[Andy Watson]

It ain't in the standard release of either film. My karate instructor of old told me that Sanjuro was a lot longer when he first saw it in comparison to the recent television broadcasts of it.

One wonders if it has been severly cut.

[Gene Gabel]

Originally posted by Andy Watson
It ain't in the standard release of either film. My karate instructor of old told me that Sanjuro was a lot longer when he first saw it in comparison to the recent television broadcasts of it.

One wonders if it has been severly cut.
...............................................................

I don't know how long your tv versions are but the new Criterion Edition on dvd remastered is 96 min long. I have some Kurosawa books and will check for that fight scene and get back to you on it

Gene Gabel:smilejapa