PDA

View Full Version : always bujutsu..never budo..???



Kamiyama
28th March 2003, 07:08
When making a choice to train in the martial arts and the word bujutsu and budo come up which direction do you take?

When is it budo and when is it bujutsu?

What are the differences..in your opinion?

Photo of bujutsu training, jojutsu.

kamiyama, ralph severe

yoj
28th March 2003, 09:00
In my opinion? No difference at all, it's just a turn of phrase that have been fashionable at one time or another, now there _is_ a difference between koryu and gendai, but thats not the question is it?

Realistically, depends on the art, and the etacher as to what they are doing, and whether or not you could attribute it 'budo' characteristics, or 'bujutsu' characteristics, a differentiation which i gather really only exist in the minds of westerners getting far to esoteric over apparant subtleties in words....

Just my $0.02

:D

Kamiyama
28th March 2003, 09:42
a differentiation which i gather really only exist in the minds of westerners getting far to esoteric over apparant subtleties in words....


Jim, This is very different.. a wonderful point.
please tell me more about this human psychology feelings you have on westerners.

The prudence of our verbal expressions are mainly what we have to go on.

I was wondering if you are speaking out with personal feelings or have knowledge of this thing you have stated, "minds of westerners"?

Clearly there must be some difference in bu-do and bu-jutsu in mind, body and heart. These are Japanese words and come from different time periods in Japanese history. From what I'm known about training for war or warrior skills there is a major difference. It just can't be a westerners idea or can it?

But I would like to hear what you have to say. please...

kamiyama, ralph severe

yoj
28th March 2003, 10:08
Ok, lets bin westerners, "non-japanese speakers" shall we say?

" Clearly there must be some difference in bu-do and bu-jutsu in mind, body and heart. These are Japanese words and come from different time periods in Japanese history. From what I'm known about training for war or warrior skills there is a major difference. It just can't be a westerners idea or can it? "

Well, yeah, they did come from different periods in Japanese history, but then in the west we called 'x' pugilism and now boxing, they are very much just a turn of phrase.

The old chestnut of 'do' being so esoteric and 'jutsu' being badass is just not a clear delineation, the distinction between koryu and gendai is far more valid.

OK, theres a clear difference between Judo and jujutsu, kendo and kenjutsu, they are played under different rules for a reason, perhaps thats why they got different names? I dunno, but the whole i do "karate-jutsu and not karate-do" is just a few difference in syllables, it's really down to instructor/art etc.

Or let me put it this way, I used to do a 'jutsu' art, we were tough, we were training for fighting, not some 'do' stuff for moving meditation... But then everytime i went and played with decent aikidoka, they'd fold me up and break me.

The point is any art can be jutsu or do, just depends whose hands it's in. My point about being hung about semantics is that some geezer in Japan makes something a little different and decides to give it a new name, and to him, thats it, whereas we tend to read into stuff to much, analyze it and ponder, instead of just doing it....

And yes, I have "knowledge of the minds of westerners" - I have one, and I have a hard time shutting the damn thing up when i should be doing something for doing, not as a some intellectual activity....

Yours in Bu______ :D :D :D

Tamdhu
28th March 2003, 16:42
To me 'budo' is a fuzzier, more all-encompassing term which includes ways of thinking and living as a 'warrior', whatever that may mean to a particular person at a particular time, as well as the fighting aspects. Each person's vision of 'budo' will stem largely from his or her own experience and imagination, colored and styled with what they have absorbed in the way of historical Japanese warrior ways and philosophy. To my way of thinking there is no one 'dogma' of budo, but common threads run throughout most people's perception of the meaning of the word.

I see it as something that can't really be written down, but only transmitted through demonstration. For me, Hatsumi soke *is* budo.

I see 'bujutsu' as narrowing down considerably to focus on the physical fighting aspects of budo.

Strategy, (or 'strategery' as my favourite US president would say ; )perhaps, is what connects the two.

tenchijin2
28th March 2003, 16:46
From my understanding and research, the terms were quite interchangeable for a time. They have since become dicotomous, but at the time of their origins, it seems to have not been that big of a deal.

The best source would be some of the koryu researchers on this board, like Meik Skoss or Dave Lowry.

peachies
28th March 2003, 17:56
leave off the macho political posturing signatures at the ends of people posts. Bush AND Saddam are both war criminals. As for Budo/bujutsu I'd say think about it to much and one can lose the plot completely.

Oni
28th March 2003, 18:11
Originally posted by peachies
leave off the macho political posturing signatures at the ends of people posts. Bush AND Saddam are both war criminals. As for Budo/bujutsu I'd say think about it to much and one can lose the plot completely.

Peachies,

Folks have a right to put whatever they want in their signatures as long as it does not break any of our rules. Speaking of...please note it IS our policy to sign all posts with your full real name. If you want to discuss politics the Members Lounge is the place to do so.

Kamiyama
29th March 2003, 00:03
So if I'm reading correctly then there are different types of warriors of the bu-jutsu-do?

budo, One that studies history and rules and laws of the dojo, a way of living, moving meditation, kata, spiritual aspects, physical fitness and mental focus.

bujutsu, One that studies history and rules and laws of the dojo, a way of living, moving meditation, being a badass, kata, mental focus,
fitness, combative effectiveness, spiritual aspects and sparring.

Is this what I'm reading from your post?

ok..

What then is in the name if this is correct or is not correct?

Photo below is bujutsu.......or not?

kamiyama, ralph severe

Asia
29th March 2003, 12:20
Now these terms interchangeable but I think there is still a difference.

DO art forms goal tends to be the betterment of a person through training in warrior arts.

Jutsu art forms focus is combative skill.

A main point I make in my arguements that one does NOT need any moral code, spirituality, etc be a good MArtist is that the cirriculum of these two are mainly the same.

(ie what would be the difference in gyaku-tsuki if you were doing KarateDO or KarateJUTSU? Would you perform kata differntly? The answer NO.)

Granted this is a simplified version of my usual rant. I am not addressing some other factors here.

shotofan
3rd April 2003, 02:03
I feel that it is just words... I mean is, that a person training in a art with jutsu and not do going to be a real warrior. were as some one training in a do art like kend, akido etc is just pretending?
I don't think so.. I feel since there are no wars the teachers just added do to make the art more pleasing to people who wanted to stay in touch with the past but still be peaceful.... :p