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INFINOO
28th March 2003, 16:20
One of my new students is a video junky:D. In the last month he has lent me several tapes . One of the best IMO is a tape by Melissa Soalt. I just finished watching vlume one "Fierce and Female" Practical rape defense tactics for every woman.
There is some really solid material on this tape.
The tape is professionally shot and the lighting and sound are excellent. The tech and concepts shown are shown in the class room and than in a scenerio based situations full speed and full power. Parden the pun but this lady pulls no punches or in her case eye gouges, knees to the balls chops to the neck:eek:. I like the practical and realistic approach Dr.Ruthless has towards self defense. Although the tape is geared towards defenses for females, I think anyone could "glean" somthing usefull from the information. Im forward to watching volume two with the wife this weekend.

Regards

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

INFINOO
30th March 2003, 19:19
I just finished watching volume two from aka Dr Ruthless. First off, the fighting spirit of this women as a warrior is inspirational. In this tape Melissa Soalt address many aspects of raw aggression that women may face in a sexual assault. This tape deals with the reality of what happens in a rape and gives common sense and practical tech/concepts of how to survive. She clearly explains how to fake submission/compliance to gain the upper hand and counter attack. A good portion of the tape deals with ground fighting.
She starts off by explaining how to fall to the ground without getting knocked out and from there some coiled positions to kicks. Dr ruthless has a very solid base on the ground and in many cases she knocks over her "partner" with kicks to the chest/head/groin. Good thing he is padded up. From there she shows many escapes from the top the rear mounts.
I was pleasantly surprised at her execution of fundamental ground fighting in close combat. This lady really knows how to fight on the ground, up close and personal. Dr Ruthless stresses the importance of getting the legs in the fight and bucking the hips. She follows up the escapes with effective and devastating counter attacks. The sound and picture quality of the tape are excellent. On the tape it shows her web page as www.dr.ruthless.com. Although I got to watch these tapes for free, I for one plan on getting my own copys of these tapes for my own libray. The two volume tape set "Practical rape defense tactics for every woman" are really good tapes and would make an excellent gift for that special lady in your life.



Regards

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

MarieB
5th April 2003, 12:27
Originally posted by INFINOO
The two volume tape set "Practical rape defense tactics for every woman" are really good tapes and would make an excellent gift for that special lady in your life.

hopefully the women wont need to use the tactics from the tapes... ;)

Cady Goldfield
6th April 2003, 15:17
Gregory,

Sounds like her methods mirror those of Model Mugging(tm), a national organization in the US that gives 8-week anti-mugging courses for women. It's an all-out, reality-based program that covers all of the most typical assaults on women and the most effective ways to combat them.

I know women who have taken the course -- several times for refreshers -- and their responses have been interesting. One told me that it was "liberating" in that it was the first time she ever felt justified in yelling and cursing at a man (nevermind hitting and kicking him)! It fosters a complete attitude change in participants, both during the process and after they have attained a level of physical competency that makes them realize that they have the power to fight.

Arthur
6th April 2003, 15:33
It's an all-out, reality-based program that covers all of the most typical assaults on women and the most effective ways to combat them.

Its what they consider reality based and what they consider the best ways. Personally I think their are a lot of bad choices their and what they teach would only serve to help me attack them better.

The program has a lot of holes in it, but unfortunately they have a little politically correct press juggernaught going that keeps people from seeing or pointing these things out.

Arthur

INFINOO
6th April 2003, 21:36
Auther: Im not sure if Dr Ruthless material is the same as model mugging(thanks Cady) I will say, that the material presented in "Practical Rape Tactics for every Women" was intertaining and informative. Even my wife said about Dr,Ruthless "she is good, I would watch the tapes again" and for my wife that is high praise indeed. She generally has little or no interest in self defense tapes. Perhaps it was the fact that a 100 pound woman was putting the boots to guys for a change.
Keep in mind that the tech/concepts presented are primarily the "naked hand" approach to self defense(not my first choice).
If you would be so kind, perhaps you could share the "holes" and "bad choices" you speak about?

Cady: Does the "model mugging" deal with/teach the use of edge weapons in the course.

Regards

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Arthur
7th April 2003, 21:44
Auther: Im not sure if Dr Ruthless material is the same as model mugging

I don't have enough knowledge of Dr. Ruthless to comment on what she does. I was solely refrencing model mugging.


If you would be so kind, perhaps you could share the "holes" and "bad choices" you speak about?

I'm not sure if going over the physical problems in a public forum is a good idea, as much as I'd love to babble for a while on it. Let me think if I can find a way of saying stuff without being too specific.

The psychological aspects I have no problem writing about though. Hopefully I'll have a post up by tomorrow afternoon.

Arthur

Perry Hauck
8th April 2003, 23:51
Melissa Soalt used to be the head of Model Mugging in Boston, before she sold it. She IS pretty awesome. Now Boston Model Mugging is affiliated with IMPACT.

There is a LOT of difference from region to region, organization to organization & city to city with Adrenal based scenario training of the IMPACT/Model Mugging lineage. There are a lot of technique & philosophical differences between chapters, sometimes very striking ones.

Saying "Model Mugging" doesn't convey any more information than saying "Karate" and blanket statements usually just show that the person making them is not very knowledgeable.

BTW, Model Mugging as an organization no longer exists, though some places still use the term for name recognition purposes

Take Care,
Perry

Arthur
9th April 2003, 06:34
Saying "Model Mugging" doesn't convey any more information than saying "Karate"

Saying "model mugging" seemed to convey enough or you to recognize the reference and make a statement about it.

I'd have to disagree that saying model mugging doesn't convey more meaning than saying Karate though. Personally I think saying Karate conveys plenty of information. While there are certainly many styles of Karate and many training practices within those styles and variants across individual schools in the same organizations, most people, especially those on these boards, have a pretty good idea what I'm refering to if I simply say Karate. The vast majority of Karate styles have many things in common which sort of define our collective sense of what the generic term Karate is. So I think as general as the term Karate is, it also conveys a fair amount of information.

"Model Mugging", I believe conveys even more information than does the term Karate. Though it may be no longer, it was at one time a brand name. In addition to being a brand name it had a pretty good press portfolio with pieces done on it by most of the television news magazines. Its core tenets and what it wanted to show off have been beamed into millions of houses across the nation. Part of its success is surely based on the fact that the name "model mugging" does indeed convey a certyain idea to many people. after all, if it weren't so, why would "places still use the term for name recognition purposes"?



and blanket statements usually just show that the person making them is not very knowledgeable.

Is it being implied that I am not knowledgable because of the "blanket statement" I already made or because of the ones it is assumed will come?

Well concerning what I already said... I'll go one step further in making a blanket statement not only does model mugging have some holes, all martial arts have some holes.

Perhaps I was being unfair in saying it had "a lot" of holes though. So I will retract that part of the statement, and simply say... it definately has holes.

I don't think I'm prepared to write a response to any blanket statements I haven't yet made, so I'll wait on those.


There is a LOT of difference from region to region, organization to organization & city to city with Adrenal based scenario training of the IMPACT/Model Mugging lineage. There are a lot of technique & philosophical differences between chapters, sometimes very striking ones.


That's very interesting, and I'd really like to hear more. At this point we've already infringed on hijacking this thread, so why don't you start a new thread on "model mugging"/"impact" and tell us about the training and the differences from chapter to chapter, and I'll hold off on saying anything else until I've been better informed.

Arthur

INFINOO
9th April 2003, 14:43
Okay boys break it up, go back to your corner and come out swinging:p. Really, hijack away. And Perry welcome to E-Budo.
Im interested(so is my wife) in the training meathodolgies of the women self defense area, not just one person specifically. I wrote the mini reveiw about Dr.Ruthless because I wanted to A. expose the tapes to E-Budo. B. Hear what people had to say about the information in the tapes. C. Start a dialog about how womens self defense in general. The fact the men are generally bigger, stronger and more aggressive than women make it challenging to say the least.
Which is why I beleive and teach "my girls" that weapons(knives,impact tools) should be a major component in the equation.
My own personal experience in training Women in self defense is the area is getting women to "cross over" and make the "switch" is the key.
So like I said , hijack away

Regards

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

tmanifold
9th April 2003, 17:27
blanket statements usually just show that the person making them is not very knowledgeable.

Speaking about blanket statements, thats a good one right there. People make genrelizations that is normal. Don't assume that because some one was imprecise that they are incapable of being precise. Now all of you behave yourselves or I'll make you stand in the corner:D

Good topic though.

Perry Hauck
10th April 2003, 00:42
Well, a lot of different topics have been broached here. I didn't want my post to sound so (pardon the pun) "combative", but I do stand by the point that there is quite a deal of variation in the teachings of the adrenal based scenario training community.
I want to comment on one point in particular, at present, that is, the differences between chapters.

For those who aren't familiar, adrenal based scenario training of the type we are discussing is an "A-symetrical" training methodology. This is the methodology used by IMPACT, RMCAT, Fastdefense, Fullpower and others. In this training, one creates an adrenal state by working with instructors who don 40 pounds of protective body armor. This armor (including a large padded helmet) permits the instructors to offer reality based face-to-face real time scenarios.

Students, therefore, get the opportunity to actually feel what it is like to be in an intimidating moment and have the opportunity to practice their skills. This training includes exposure, familiarity and acclimation to the adrenal state. Trainers are able to create a learning experience that mimics the physiological and psychological conditions of the real-life situations in which the skills must be accessed.

However, the WAY each group does this differs. Physical techniques, the verbal skills, concepts of mental readiness, ways to process past trauma in the adrenal state (when & if it comes up)as well as the role of the "mock assailant" is different in each of the organizations I have experienced. Sometimes these differences are major sometimes they are more of emphasis than kind.

Although probably the least important area, people seem to like to discuss techniques because it is simple to do compared to emotional states, so I'll give some examples in the area of physical techniques:

At IMPACT in L.A. the "core" body weapons taught in a 20-hour Basics class, are the chin jab (heel palm), knee strike, elbow strike, eye strike, kicking on the ground (side thrust kick & Ax kick).

At Bay Area Model Mugging/IMPACT's 20-hour Basics class the only standing strikes are eye gouges,(rear )elbows and foot stomps(they don't teach the chin jab). With the rest of the techniques about the same.

At PREPARE/IMPACT in NYC, they have a very different de-escilation/ready stance than B.A.M.M. or IMPACT in L.A.. The rest of the physical is about the same a L.A., though they teach the Chin jab differently.

The "reversals" as we call simulated rape scnarios also differ. At B.A.M.M., they rely heavily on eye gouges & groin grabs to dislodge the assailant, while in L.A. their is more of an emphasis on using hip leverage to dislodge the assailant then attack the assailant. N.Y.'s philopsophy is about the same as L.A., though they use completely different physical techniques to get the assailant off of them.

Each chapter varies in each of the other categories mentioned above as well.

Take Care,
Perry

INFINOO
10th April 2003, 03:38
Perry, thanks for information. It sounds like you have some exstensive experieince with these groups and this type of training. Are you one of those guys that dresses up in the bullet man suits? :D. Or perhaps you an Instructor in one of these systems? Your own system?
If so maby you can tell me do all these groups have a link/connection to Peytan Quin sp? Just curious. Thanks.




Regards

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

Perry Hauck
10th April 2003, 18:27
Hi Gregory,

Yeah, I work full-time as a "bulletman" (or "Mugger" as we call them) for IMPACT Personal Safety in L.A.. I also been involved with instructor training at other chapters.

Work pays for me to travel around the country to self-defense programs, so I have gotten to experience a few purely as a student as well.

Peyton learned adrenal based scenario training from Model Mugging & IMPACT instructors. I belive first in Boston (Melissa Soalt, though to be accurate I don't think Boston was affiliated with IMPACT, but the former Model Mugging) then in Los Angeles. (Those instructors are all mentioned by name in his book "Real Fighting"). Also his video "Bliztkrieg Attacks: Knockout Blows from the Bouncer Trade" prominently features Mike Belzer (the guy who got me into it). Mike was a long time IMPACT Mugger in L.A. who now has his own organization with his wife Meredith Gold. Meredith writes a self-defense column in Black Belt Magazine and is the director of Women's training at Peyton's RMCAT.

Peyton also used to be on the board of directors of IMPACT/ The IMPACT Foundation years ago.

So yes, there is a lineage there.

Take Care,
Perry

INFINOO
11th April 2003, 18:27
Perry, Thanks for the information.

Arthur: I still would like to hear your thoughts on the subject.

Has anyone else seen the tapes in question?

Regards

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

Arthur
11th April 2003, 19:08
I'm away on a training trip. I'll write when I get back. Probably Tuesday.

Also Perry, thanks for expounding on some of those differences. Good stuff to know.

Arthur

Cady Goldfield
11th April 2003, 19:36
Very interesting to learn that history. Thanks, Perry.
I'm in Boston, and the women I know who took the course, between 10 and 15 years ago, did so at the Model Mugging program here. Dunno if Ms. Soalt had already sold it at that point.

I didn't seen the classes in person, but one of the women showed me the videotape from her "graduation" (when students go through a random mugging -- they are picked out at random by the "mugger" while watching others train, and must take him out). I have to say that it was intense.

In the program, the women must be able to literally take down their attacker. Even though he is wearing all that padding, they must be able to attack to the knee, throat, etc. and actually use enough force to make him go down -- and acknowledge that the force would have been adequate to cause a knockout in "real life."

Greg, I don't recall seeing knives or weapons used in the tape, but that doesn't mean that some schools don't use them. Maybe Perry has information on that. It's not something I would introduce in a basic course, though. Most women need to get used to unarmed assault and even just verbal assault before they're prepared to deal with weapons.

INFINOO
12th April 2003, 02:02
Cady:
Thanks for the reply. Im not a doctor but a strike to the throat or the knee can't cause a knock out. Or did you mean, knock them down and hit there head on somthing hard knock out?
Im really curious , why do you think women need to get used to verbal assault and unarmed assault before women are prepared to 'deal" with weapons in this case a knife? I guess we should clear up what you mean by dealing with means? By deal with do you mean learning repect for knives, safe knife practices, the introduction of training knives, How to carry, angles of attack, draws, cut, thrust, repeat...OO. Or is deal with in terms of the naked hand vs knife attacks.

Regards

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

Cady Goldfield
12th April 2003, 02:30
Originally posted by INFINOO
Cady:
Thanks for the reply. Im not a doctor but a strike to the throat or the knee can't cause a knock out. Or did you mean, knock them down and hit there head on somthing hard knock out?
Im really curious , why do you think women need to get used to verbal assault and unarmed assault before women are prepared to 'deal" with weapons in this case a knife? I guess we should clear up what you mean by dealing with means? By deal with do you mean learning repect for knives, safe knife practices, the introduction of training knives, How to carry, angles of attack, draws, cut, thrust, repeat...OO. Or is deal with in terms of the naked hand vs knife attacks.


Greg,

Yes, I meant that those strikes and kicks are meant to get the attacker down on the ground (and, you hope, hit his head) so you can stomp them from an advantageous position and then get away. Repeated kicks to the fronts and sides of the knees can mechanically disable or buckle them.

Actually, if you know how to attack the throat, it is a very vulnerable area. I have been able to get my grip around a partner's trachea, and could easily have crushed it. But that's an aside to this discussion. Such techniques are not intended for a knockout. But, I saw that throat punches and strikes were taught to Model Mugging students. At least, it was evident on the videotape I watched.

Concerning verbal assault, empty-handed assault and weapon assault: Many of the women who sign up for model mugging are individuals who have been the victims of rape, mugging, incest and other forms of abuse. The woman whose "graduation" tape I saw had been raped multiple times by male members of her extended family. She was raised in an environment of abuse, and was intimidated by words and gestures as well as actions.

For many women, all it takes is for a man to tell her what he is going to do to her, to get her to fall apart and be immobile. The first part of Model Mugging training seems to be to get them used to being spoken to threateningly and with the most impactful vocabulary imaginable. Graphic threats, vulgar language, the works.

Then there's the coverage of basic assault patterns -- the attack from the rear, attack when the victim is lying down as in bed, attack when the victim is cornered and other scenarios. The focus is on the kinds of attacks men most often commit on women, including the way they approach and initiate.

The fighting moves the women are taught are those that will work -- if programmed in -- even when the woman is in fight-or-flight mode. That is, the techniques are the most basic, gross motor movement. I know you are fully aware that in a high-duress situation, refined motor coordination goes right out the window. The basic skills have already been mentioned in previous posts. Keep in mind that most of these women have never hit or even raised their hand to anyone in their lives.

Weapons are a different territory, and I believe they aren't approached in the Model Mugging programs -- at least, not the original model -- because handling a knife-wielding opponent has many more variables to deal with, and the women are already absorbing so much new information with the other stuff.

Anyone who has trained seriously with knives knows that it requires a level of awareness and state-of-mind that exceeds what can be conditioned and taught in even a 20 week course. Sure, you can teach some rigid techniques, but I don't think you can really ingrain the intuition and skill for such defense without extensive practice. Not only that, but the gross motor movements the women are taught to disable an unarmed attacker, may put them in danger should they unleash the same responses on an attacker with a weapon.

It's more than physical training, it's psychological conditioning. Considering where so many of the students are starting from, it's just too much to cover.

INFINOO
21st April 2003, 04:49
Thanks for the response Cady. I have been meaning to respond sooner, and even tried to a couple of times, I just been really busy..OO. Anyways, my point about the throat shots is that it wont knock someone out , it "may" kill them , but not knock them out, "no". Can you imagine telling a judge after the fact. Ya your honer, I wanted to knock the attacker out so I gave him a "judo chop" to the front of his throat.
I bet that would go over real good :rolleyes:.

Before I get to the knife issue, I have to ask when you say, "anyone who has trained seriously with knives". Who are refering to, you, me, or your instructor, or maby someone else? And if so what kind of serious training are we talking about. Was that 20 week course comment a typo? If not please, elaberate. Thanks.



Regards

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives Internatioanl
Calgary Alberta Canada

Bruce Mitchell
1st May 2003, 08:19
okay,
I am sure that I will get jumped on for this, but I am fishing for contrary opinions to balance the view I have of model mugging which is this: It teaches women empowerment, not self defense.

I have watched a couple of Bay Area Model Mugging Graduations and the biggest problem that I see with them is that the "attackers" in no way create anything coming close to the intensity of a real street attack (I am speaking more of the psychological side of it here, I understand that there are real limits that need to be kept to maintain safety in any self defense course). While the attackers do use threatening and abusive langauge, it lacks the intensity of someone who has no qualms about doing what it takes to get what they want. I do think the scenerios are intense, but the attacks are not truely "violent".

I would also venture to say that in 90% of the scenerios, the women allowed the attacker to either close the distance or take them to the ground before the launched a committed attack. The strategies seemed geared to beginning self defense from this position. I would also note that in none of the scenerios that I witnessed, did the women disengage and make a committed attempt to seek escape after launching an initial attack, the training appeared to be geared towards maintaining the engagement to the bitter end.

Either way, this course, as do most self defense courses, seems to greatly underestimate the physical strength of the average male. I strongly believe that, as my cqc instructor likes to say, you must assume that your attacker is stronger than you, he is faster than you, he is smarter than you, and he is armed. Allowing the attacker to control the beginning of an altercation seems to be a great way of insuring the outcome, in his favor.

BTW, I believe that all of what I said above holds true for most men's self defense courses as well. Now, I am currently invovled in a course based off of the Fairbairn/Applegate systems, so I do have a bias. :)

I may be way off base here (I hope so for the sake of all of the model mugging students out there), and am interested in hearing contrary opinions.

INFINOO
1st May 2003, 18:04
Great Post Bruce. The attacker is bigger stronger faster smarter has been "drilled" in to me as well. I would also add, that the attackers also come with friends.
Which is why Im more than a little confussed about all this naked hand self defense nonsense.
Imagine if you where a general talking to the troops. " Well men, the enemy has us outnumbered is better armed, is bigger, stronger and will use surprise when they attack us , now go out there and engage them empty handed? Huh. How long would that army last in war?
The other issue I have is when "they" say (they know who they are;) ) that there tech/concepts will have to change if weopons like knives come into play. Personally, I beleive and teach that my pocket stick /knife concepts change very little if not at all from the naked hand tech. The angles of attack change not. The effective range if we are talking a 3-4 inch fixed/folder, are the same. And like it or not "the fight, is the fight for your life".
From my experience, there is only two things the bad guys understand 1. pain and 2. injury. The quicker and easier with less risk to yourself you hand out generous portions of both dishes when/if you come under attack the better.
I think the reason that women self defense courses arent taught street weopons like the knife or pocket stick for offence/defense from the get go is all about money. I know from persoanl experience its a much harder sell. And like "they" say, more sales, more profit.

Perry Hauck
1st May 2003, 20:34
"The other issue I have is when "they" say (they know who they are ) that there tech/concepts will have to change if weopons like knives come into play. Personally, I beleive and teach that my pocket stick /knife concepts change very little if not at all from the naked hand tech."

Yes. This is a very important point.

Ideally, one shouldn't have "punch defenses" and "knife defenses" (and "bludgeon defenses") they should, to the extent possible, be one and the same. Obviously, there are differences in what you can do against a guy with a club and a knife,that is a given. But as mentioned, the idea should be to make those responses as similar (or identical) as possible.

The supposition of people who take very different approaches to each type of weapon attack is that you will beforehand be able to see the weapon (or that he doesn't have a weapon in his hand) and then be able to select the "appropriate" response. Hick's law tells us that this this is just not realistic.

People often are simply not able to determine that they are even in a knife assault before they have to respond. Many times people just percieve someone swinging at them. They don't know if he has a bottle, knife, screwdriver, club or whatever. They just percieve the motion. They don't have time to determine what "category" of responses to choose from, they just have to react immediately.

For that reason, all attacks should be treated as potential armed assaults.

Bruce,

I generally agree with your post. Honestly, most of what you say is true. But also keep in mind, what you saw was a group of women, probably none with any martial arts experience or previous training, after a just a 20 hour class. Most of those women probably had trouble yelling "No" on the first day and had concerns about ever "hitting" someone, even if that person was hurting them. Men, generally, don't have theses concerns.

Most people who come to take classes at BAMM or any IMPACT affiliated Chapter are very average women like this. What they really get from the class is the understanding that they CAN defending themselves; that is even a possiblity; that they are not automatically helpless just by virtue of the fact that they are a woman. That, for them, is a HUGE revelation. And the first step in learning to protect youself.

Take Care,
Perry

Bruce Mitchell
2nd May 2003, 01:28
Thank you for your replies Gregory and Perry,
It is good to be reminded that people come into these classes with often little to no training, and/or incidents in their past that influence their behavior.

To clarify some of my concerns, one of the things which was explained and demonstarted was that the these women were trained for some of the "what if's", such as "what if your initial defense fails?". In theory this is not an unsound approach, but in practice, in every scenerio enacted, the first attempt always failed. My observatyion was that the women took a less than fully committed attempt at the initial defense, and were "saving it up" for the secondary defense. In effect, these women were trained to fail in their initial defense. I may be being a little harsh here, but I think it's better to sock it out over the keyboard than on the street.

Most statistics seem to support that victims who put up an initial committed defense fare better both physically and psychologically than victims who have not done so.

I do believe that these courses are signifigantly better than your average karate school self defense course, or YMCA course, but there still seem to be signifigant shortcomings.

I understand that many of the attack scenerios are based off of actual attacks taken from police reports. I would recommend that the instructor/assailant not only be able to re-enact an assault scenerio, but that they really understand the mindset of your average thug or rapist, and be able to bring that intensity to their role. Most of these individuals (not the instructors) are prison-population, serial criminals, and are truly savage in their actions/assaults. The difference is in looking into the eye of your assailant and knowing that they not only are intent are harming you, but may even be relishing the idea.

This may be too much to ask of a twenty hour course, but I don't know if I would send my daughter through a course that I did not feel adequetely addressed these things. Again, I may be wrong here and would be happy to hear otherwise.

Thank you again for the responses.

mt2k
3rd May 2003, 05:00
Iif someone, male or female, is looking for a solid, pratical, short term method of self defense, then they can do no better than the material presented in those two tapes by Ms. Soalt. Her methods are very similar to WW2 commando unarmed combat tactics.
I rate this tape series a 10.
Matt Temkin

Bruce Mitchell
3rd May 2003, 05:16
Thank you Matt,
I will look for her tapes. Overall they are receiving nothing but praise here so far. Thank you for the feedback.

mt2k
5th May 2003, 03:11
Her tape set, Fierce and Female, is available from www.paladinpress.com
Check them out.
Matt Temkin

mews
5th May 2003, 21:46
Originally posted by Bruce Mitchell
Thank you for your replies Gregory and Perry,
It is good to be reminded that people come into these classes with often little to no training, and/or incidents in their past that influence their behavior.

To clarify some of my concerns, one of the things which was explained and demonstarted was that the these women were trained for some of the "what if's", such as "what if your initial defense fails?". In theory this is not an unsound approach, but in practice, in every scenerio enacted, the first attempt always failed. My observatyion was that the women took a less than fully committed attempt at the initial defense, and were "saving it up" for the secondary defense. In effect, these women were trained to fail in their initial defense. I may be being a little harsh here, but I think it's better to sock it out over the keyboard than on the street.

Most statistics seem to support that victims who put up an initial committed defense fare better both physically and psychologically than victims who have not done so.

I do believe that these courses are signifigantly better than your average karate school self defense course, or YMCA course, but there still seem to be signifigant shortcomings.

I understand that many of the attack scenerios are based off of actual attacks taken from police reports. I would recommend that the instructor/assailant not only be able to re-enact an assault scenerio, but that they really understand the mindset of your average thug or rapist, and be able to bring that intensity to their role. Most of these individuals (not the instructors) are prison-population, serial criminals, and are truly savage in their actions/assaults. The difference is in looking into the eye of your assailant and knowing that they not only are intent are harming you, but may even be relishing the idea.

This may be too much to ask of a twenty hour course, but I don't know if I would send my daughter through a course that I did not feel adequetely addressed these things. Again, I may be wrong here and would be happy to hear otherwise.

Thank you again for the responses.

tmanifold
5th May 2003, 21:53
What was the point of just quoting what some one else already posted?

mews
5th May 2003, 22:15
Well, I screwed up that copy & paste, didn't I? I realized it - but was over the 15 min limit at that point.
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I understand that many of the attack scenerios are based off of actual attacks taken from police reports. I would recommend that the instructor/assailant not only be able to re-enact an assault scenerio, but that they really understand the mindset of your average thug or rapist, and be able to bring that intensity to their role. Most of these individuals (not the instructors) are prison-population, serial criminals, and are truly savage in their actions/assaults. The difference is in looking into the eye of your assailant and knowing that they not only are intent are harming you, but may even be relishing the idea.
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anyway - for many women, 'empowerment' _IS_ self-defense.

For most women, the assailant is someone they know, not a stranger-danger rape. Dealing with Step-daddy, the preacher, the professor, the slightly-too-drunk-boyfriend is more the reality than the assault on the street / in the parking lot / in the park that gets the heavy press.

Dealing with Step-daddy, the preacher, the professor, the slightly-too-drunk-boyfriend is a lot harder mentally than dealing with a stranger. We are taught to mis-read, to assume no harm, to question ourselves much more with those people. and therefore get in deeper tourble, faster. A stranger - it's usually more clear-cut, no moral or ethical feelings towards that person, etc... and they can't fire us if we don't go along, or trash our GPA, or tell Mom we were leading them on, or whatever.

mew

Bruce Mitchell
6th May 2003, 00:30
Fair enough Margaret,
I don't disagree with you, but my point was that these were not presented as date rape/ familiar rape scenerios. I would agree with you that empowerment is a critical part of the success of any self defense course. But if the techniques, or the strategy behind their deployment is unsound then there is a problem. I am not trying to pass judgement on BAMM here, I am just asking tough questions to get a more complete picture of the program.

I would also posit that an approach that was more focused on addressing the situational awareness so that the victim can take action before the assailant is on top of her, and making a committed initial defense still seems a more logical approach. Regardless of who your assailant is, a committed initial defense seems to be the best bet.

Should street defense differ from defense against a known assailant? I don't honestly know, and I am not going to pretend that I can ever understand the empowerment issues experienced by women. But I think that this is a worthwhile question and am curious as to what others with more experience in this field have to say.

INFINOO
6th May 2003, 01:35
Margret thanks for the input.
It kind of makes you wonder how smart it is to base your intire self defense scenario(attacks) off police reports . First of all, how many attacks are not reported, especially by women against men.
I will give you an example. I very good lady friend of mine was in a crowded bar in Vancover. At one point she went to the bathroom by her self. On the way there, a man grabbed her genitals as she walked by him. My friends response was to turn towards the attack, grab his neck pull him down and in and head butt his nose.
So at this point in the story, I ask her if she kneed him in the balls and finished with an elbow, you know finished him off:cool: She looks up at me with her black and blue eye brow(hey she was drunk) and says "there was no need". I go "what do mean no need". She says "blood was pouring out of his nose like a water faucet",and "He was just standing there holding his nose, he was done". His friends came and hustled him out of the bar. I wonder what his version of the story was to his friends?.

mews
8th May 2003, 16:32
Well, IMO that wasn't an attack by a woman on a man - there I'd say 'he started it, and she finished it.'

That was an attack, and a clear expression of contempt - 'after all, she's a woman, so I can grab her crotch and there will be no consequences.' There was a consequence, and perhaps [we hope] a re-ordering in his sodden brain of 'permitted public behavior towards female-type people'.

But no - that won't make a police report.
and actually, _most successes_ don't either - so the data is skewed.
From what I've read of studies interviewing women about what worked - ANY strong response - yelling, running, hitting - vastly improves the sucess rate.

Most attackers of women have such a low bar in their mind of 'what resistance they will meet' - that a strong response of some kind - trained or not - sends the script in their head off track.

Thus your friends comment about finishing him off - 'there was no need'. A good judgement call there. Yes, he was suffering from physical pain at that point, but most of all a severe re-ordering of his view of the world. The neurons were fried with severe cognitive dissonance.

mew

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Margret thanks for the input.
It kind of makes you wonder how smart it is to base your intire self defense scenario(attacks) off police reports . First of all, how many attacks are not reported, especially by women against men.
I will give you an example. I very good lady friend of mine was in a crowded bar in Vancover. At one point she went to the bathroom by her self. On the way there, a man grabbed her genitals as she walked by him. My friends response was to turn towards the attack, grab his neck pull him down and in and head butt his nose.
So at this point in the story, I ask her if she kneed him in the balls and finished with an elbow, you know finished him off She looks up at me with her black and blue eye brow(hey she was drunk) and says "there was no need". I go "what do mean no need". She says "blood was pouring out of his nose like a water faucet",and "He was just standing there holding his nose, he was done". His friends came and hustled him

Chinjab
15th June 2003, 14:28
Melissa Soalt's material is EXCELLENT. I don't care where it came from or if she worked it out in her back yard. It is simple, direct, and self evident.

Only someone with a "black belt" or a "PhD" would not "get it":rolleyes:

kenanderson
17th June 2003, 04:18
Melissa is a good person and a good instructor. I recommend anything she puts out highly.