dream to live in Japan [Archive]

Jody Holeton

8th April 2003, 05:28

There is also the Earlham Program. Most JETs I have known really have either HATED their jobs OR have really gotten involved in a Japanese hobby.

I know lots of horror stories!

It is a mixed bag of living here in Japan. You take the good with the bad..... Bad things CAN really outshine the GOOD here. I keep on thinking about the pay, the pay is good and I can goto Tokyo!

I would recommend that anyone who thinks about going to Japan do 3 things:

1. Get your finances in ORDER before you come (Japanese banks suck and you should have $2000 in cash in pocket)

2. Get the basics of the language

3. Live in or NEAR a big city (Tokyo, Osaka, and Kyoto)

rebelfilms

25th June 2003, 12:18

What is the Earlham programme? Is it like the Jet programme (i ask because i was also thinking of getting on the Jet programme when i finish my BA - do somthing different for a year.....

Jody Holeton

25th June 2003, 12:51

Earlham is just like the JET program.

I am quitting soon so you can have my JOB!!

Check them out. Same pay, same sh!t etc.

PM for more details!

Good luck, get out while you are young and ignorant!

Kobe

2nd July 2003, 15:19

the best advice, do not come to Japan. The world is very big, plenty of marvellous countries where you will not feel any discrimination for being indonesian(as you will face for sure in Japan).
good luck,

R.G.Rodriguez;)

Vapour

2nd July 2003, 17:50

From my experience, people who enjoyed staying in Japan did something which is meaningfull over there. Real job (which is hard if you don't have special expertise, your engineering degree might help but you really have to be PhD level) or attending proper university education or serious commitment to Japanese cluture/hobby (martial arts is often the case). Or ofcourse, getting married is another serious commitment. :)

Kobe

2nd July 2003, 20:19

I´m an expertise in a very particular field and I practice MA, still, I do not enjoy Japan. I have been living in diferent countries, Japan is the one(by far) where I enjoyed less.
To marry a japanese girl?? No thank you, I like women, not dolls with imposted voice.
And believe me, I came here with the rigth attitude, and plenty of respect for such a developed country, it took me few months to realise what its going on, no soul, no feelings.
To come to Japan and to see some interesting things yes, but no more that a couple of weeks, is more than enough.
And I´m european caucasian(the ones that japanese discriminate less)but if the foreigner is asian......he/she can be ready to bear many problems.
By the way, my field is human rigths, in that too, Japan is at the rear of the developed countries.
:mad:

Kimpatsu

2nd July 2003, 23:19

But living in Japan is still an experience, Rodriguez.
Besides, why wouldn't anyone want to visit the sun source of Japanese MA?

Kobe

3rd July 2003, 00:46

Yes Tony, a priceless experience, and if a person can handle Japan, well, then he/she can live in any corner of the world.
I agree with you about MA, if a person likes japanese MA, Japan is the rigth place, but as you know, the japanese teaching system is quiet strange(even in MA), its not very clear, not many explanations, sometimes questions are not very wellcome, and of course, 9 out of 10 senseis will not teach "everything" to a gaijin martial artist, besides that in some dojos foregneirs are not allow. Between 2 good senseis, one japanese and the other one western, I do not have any doubt.
One of the saddest thing I have seen in my life are those foreigners that for different reasons are trapped in Japan(cause they are married, cause difficulties finding job in their own countries, cause they already spend many years here and they feel they do not belong anywhere), Japan can be a jail, add to that the lepers issue, the burakumin, the 3rd or 4th generation of koreans, rape, suicidal meetings, discrimination.....a heaven, at list for my job!!!!

Kimpatsu

3rd July 2003, 01:05

No one said he was going to live here forever; trying to discourage him from even trying smacks of elitism. Don't forget the civilised aspects of Japan: you can even drink beer in the cinema! If you hate Japan so much, what brought you here in the first place?

renfield_kuroda

3rd July 2003, 02:44

Let's all remember that Japan, like the US or any other country, is very big and can offer many different experiences. While some generalizations are accurate -- Japan is racist, sexist, inefficient -- they are also accurate for other countries -- the US is racist, sexist, inefficient. No place is perfect. You may consider your home better than Japan, but a) that's YOU, and b) it's a tautology anyway: the place you ultimately choose to call home is by definition better than anywhere else, otherwise you wouldn't call it home and would eventually move on to someplace better.
So, while some (many? most?) Japanese women are airhead OLs, remember that's true for many other countries, too. While most of Japan is crowded and expensive, try Hong Kong, or Manhattan. Racism and sexism in Japan? How about the south of US if you're black, or the south of France if you're Nigerian? Or London if you're French?
Japan is not The Perfect Land of The Rising Sun, but the streets in NY aren't paved in gold, either.

Regards,
r e n

P Goldsbury

3rd July 2003, 13:19

I agree with Renfield, but would add that anyone coming to live here for a long time should make a very serious effort to learn the language?\and I do not mean just listening and speaking. You should not really be satisfied until you can at least 'decode' newspapers with a reasonable degree of accurate guesswork and also read some of the literature. The 2,000 joyo kanji should be a minumum. Of course, having learned the language, you might find that the natives do not say much of interest, but this depends...

Actually, we have just pushed through a rule here at Hiroshima University requiring research students coming to my faculty to have taken the Nihongo Noryoku Shiken and obtained at least 240 points at Ikkyu. This is not a passing grade, by the way, but is thought to be a minimum for coping with the classes here.

The pros and cons of staying in Japan have been endlessly debated in this forum, but I think the need for a fair level of language proficiency has not been stressed so much.

Best regards,

Meik Skoss

3rd July 2003, 15:40

Peter and Renfield are right. Social and cultural problems exist in *all* countries and Japan is no exception. Yes, it's most galling to realize that people cannot get past the obvious differences and persist in seeing you as "Other." It hurts. But there it is. If you've a strong purpose and are willing to do a little suffering to attain your goals, it will all be to your benefit in the end. A good sense of humor and a strong sense of perspective help immeasurably.

Peter's point about the importance of language proficiency is absolutely correct. I'd go a step further, however, and say that it is also essential for people to become knowledgeable about the cultural and social aspects of live in the country. Hnowing how to speak (*beyond* the minimum necessary for daily life) is one of the most important things one can do if the goal is to study budo. But if you want to *begin* to "understand" the martial art(s), it's important to go far beyond that. To know what the teacher says, to know why the teacher is saying it, and to what it means (not a very easy task in Japanese, by the way, the language and culture are purposely very vague).

Mr. Hananto is Indonesian, so he's familiar with this last aspect of the Japanese way of doing things (there are similarities between the cultures), but specifics differ. For one to "get it" in Japan, one has to put aside one's own cultural baggage and deal with Japan on its own terms.

Having said all of that, we (my wife and I) had a lot of fun there. I keep going back for more. Excepting Japanese breakfasts, natto, some attitudes, and that abominable sweet bean paste, there is not much I don't like about the place. Okay, the crowding and the noise in Tokyo is pretty hard to take, but all in all, a great place to live and train.

Kobe

5th July 2003, 02:14

Dear Friends,
I did not try to convince anyone, I was speaking about some particular problems in Japan and always under my opinion, which its not the only one and of course, for many people its not the best.
But, and with that I will end my intervention, its not that difficult to live in Japan with money and/or being american or european, try to ask to the thousands of peruvians or philippinos, or vietnamese, or.....some of them speaking impecable japanese.
And yes, I know racism exist in many countries, actually, I would say that Japan is improving in this issue, a few months ago the Kanagawa prefecture granted a citizenship to Tama chan, the seal. I was moved...........and the koreans 3rd generation too.
Best regards,

El Guapo-san

8th July 2003, 09:18

Well Rodriguez, if you have such a crappy attitude, then you'll never meet the Japanese who aren't bobbing head dolls. Please feel free to take as many Dutch women out of Amsterdam as you feel like so that we can replace them with Tokyo Fembots.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

Kobe

8th July 2003, 15:11

El guapo san(well, nice nick),
can you tell me why crappy? Cause you decide so?
Wheter you like it or not, I said facts, nothing less, nothing more.
More, what the h.ll you know about my attitude? I live a very nice life in Japan, nice house, a job that I really love it, travelling in and out of the country very often, meeting very interesting people.........no complains, not at all, specially cause I have been living in many countries and with that a person develop broader attitude, but, well, most probably you are not going to understand, it sounds you the word SOLIDARITY? Thats why I do not like many things of Japan, because I feel sympathetic with thousands of thousands of people that are suffering in this country, just because their origin, their skin, their ancestors or just they have been raped. But people do not know that, just the surface. And please, do not speak about Holland, US or any other country, as fas as I know, this forum is "News from Japan". And be careful with you wishes, may it come true and to be honest, such a pity for Amsterdam.
best regards.

Kobe

8th July 2003, 15:11

Joseph Svinth

9th July 2003, 02:36

MODERATOR HAT ON.

Let's keep it civil.

MODERATOR HAT OFF.

Jody Holeton

9th July 2003, 06:48

The Earlham Program is about to have quite a few job opennings. All of their schools are north of Tokyo.

Attitude is everything here in Japan. If you do come, expect to be stared at, talked about, ignored, etc. etc.

My advice to anyone coming to this country is find something to cling to; karate, a language goal, a life goal etc.

Japan's economy has become increasingly worse, there are lots of foreigners competing for work here (degreeless Canadians, Australian, etc. are the WORST) and Japan just keeps on getting more expensive.

If you are going to come, come now, while you are young. Have a good time, DO NOT expect to be accepted as anything other than an outsider, train hard and go home while its good.

Vapour

15th July 2003, 00:11

I'm not that suprised with Kobe's attitude. Hell, if you can't get on with someone, you just can't.

In my case, in my first 4 years in Australia, almost all my friends were foreigners (Asian and Pacific Islanders). I was in university so my English were probably better than Japanese spoken by most of foreingers in Japan. But to me, Australian were generally friendly to a point of exchanging pleasantly but I never related to them. Plus during early 90 Asian weren't that popular in Australia with usual crap about foreingers taking over economy (jobs, lands and so on).

That is a long time ago. Now living in u.k. almost all my friend are British. The thing is when you start to be able to relate to people (or at least the one you like), you don't bitch so much about the society in general no matter what sort of ugly stuff you see. Afterall, you don't have to be friends with everyone nor you have to like everythings. Hey, you probably could live in Apartheid South Africa and still enjoy the life over there if you hang out with right people.

You need three things. Language (probably takes more than 5 years minimum), Proper job/education (no eikaiwa-gakko) and right attitude. And in Japan, having lot of money or job would definitely help.

Kobe

15th July 2003, 02:47

Vapour, I really do not understand your point, maybe is my english, maybe is that japanese way to talk and to say nothing.
Just one question, why it seems that most of all the japanese living abroad are so happy with that, til the point that many of them do not want to return to Japan, and when returning they miss so much and start to looking for jobs related with foreign companies or traveling abroad?
On the other hand, is obvious that foreigners living in Japan do not feel the same(of course, with exceptions).
I have been living in different countries and I never saw that level of complaining among foreigners. Is everybody wrong?
Best regards

Striking Hand

15th July 2003, 03:28

Vapour.

I lived in South Africa both before and after the abolition of Apartheid.
Not that much changed really.

But I agree with you, if you can connect with the locals you will have a good time.

A lot of the foreigners I see complaining over here in Japan tend to be people that, IMO, lived a sheltered life back home and encountered racism against them for the first time.
Those same people also try to live the lfie from abck home over here and tend to be reluctant to readjust.
On average I see Europeans do pretty well over here.
Also plenty of their complaints are bordering on the ridiculous and absurd.

Seskoad.

If you want to come over here, feel free to do so. Don't listen too much to opinions.
Yep, there are plenty of bad things happening and plenty of foreigners bitching and moaning.
OTOH, there are also plenty of people that are having a great time over here and love it.

Come with an open mind and be willing to get away from the gaijin crowd and you should be ok.

Heck, when I came here I had to ask my Wife to translate for me at the hair-dresser, and bought salt instead of sugar as I couldn't read the writing.
One friend used to carry a photograph to show to the hairdresser that showed his favourite hairs-style.

It is all part of being here and CAN be great fun in retrospective.
Like I said come with a good dose af humour and a spirit of discovery and you should do ok.

IME, it is always the same type of people that bitch and moan regardless of where they are.

Cheers.

Kobe

15th July 2003, 05:27

Come on Peter, do not try to patronice, it seem you have been here for long time, do not tell me that you do not know what is going on. Life is much more than to go to the barber or make a mistake with the sugar, even the dumbest person on the earth can overcome that and much more, if you want to make the living in Japan that frivolous its ok, but you know very well that its not that way.
Do not tell me that you do not know that a foreigner can be ban is some onsen, that can be ban in some dojos, that a korean can be ban in some university, many jobs, that a burakumin can be ban to married someone if the family come to know the background..........
You can come with the rigthest attitude, with 100% respect for this country and their citizens, but understand that 90% of the foreigners are not white, with money and well educate and that people can not see the situation like you, in a ivory tower.
Its very easy to say, "come with the rigth attitude, try to know local people.........., but its not that easy to do it, specially when you have a vietnamese passport, and that, dear Peter, whether you like it or not, its a fact.

Striking Hand

15th July 2003, 06:03

Kobe.

Yeah, I have been here for a few years.

I haven't seen anything that I haven't seen anywhere else.
On top of that I have many "gaijin" friends here who are pakistani, chinese, korean and other nationalities that got a good live here.
My MA teacher(Shrfu) is chinese and been here for a long time and no regrets from him either.
He works full-time and teaches MA in the evenings and on weekends, wife & 2 kids.

Have I encountered racism personally here, yes, once or twice but neither in a way that affected me much.

I have lived and travelled through quiet a few countries on 4 continents and so far japan is NO worse nor any better than any of those, as did my japanese wife.
In South Africa she was considered a "coloured" which is ranged as the lowest form of humanity, lower than blacks by apartheid standard.

So do I care if I can't enter the public bath owned by one bigot, no because there are many where I am welcome.
Neither do I worry if I can enter a brothel, as my interest don't lie that way, even though I have often been invited by staffers to come in.

Do I have a good life here, yeah, I do.
Got a good job with great pay(Japanese Company), great apartment conveniently situated, permanent residence, son born here.

Problem like with many countries is that many with little qualifications try to come in and except to get a better life than back home.
I noticed that many years ago already in my home-country with immigrants no skills, hardly speaks local language but expects the same pay and treatment as a local worker.

Anyhuh, cheers.

Jody Holeton

15th July 2003, 06:06

Dear all,

Maybe I'm just a whiner and a b!tch but I have had some bad experiences and some good ones here and I am a white, male WITH a decent background in Japanese.

www.angelfire.com/super/j_holeton/

It has just been rough for me. I think Japan can be a rough place. The economy is tough, Japanese culture is WEIRD (looks matter most here BLAH BLAH) and blah blah....

Japan can be heaven or hell, I still say it depends on luck, money and LIVING in Tokyo (or Kyoto) with a great grasp of the language.

I think Japan will get worse. The English teaching markets are bottoming out, Japan has a love/hate relationship with foreigners and traditional Japan has gone BYE-BYE!!

But I am BURNED out and going home as are alot of other foreigners I know. To really live in Japan I think people need something to root themselves to....

Striking Hand

15th July 2003, 06:16

Jody.

I don't deny that Japan can be a rough place.
Especially if you are in a program like JET and get dumped basically into the deep end.

Maybe it was easier because my japanese wife(married before we came) smoothed out quiet a few bumps for me, maybe also because I came with a mind of settling here for a long time.

So far I reckon 95% of the japanese I met been very friendly and helpful, somehow they seem to accept me.

Granted we got a few lucky strikes. I also think that the big cities are a bit easier to adjust too.

Cheers.

Striking Hand

15th July 2003, 06:27

Kobe & Jody.

Here is my history in japan.

Came here 7yrs ago with my japanese wife, luggage and some money.
No jobs arranged, no japanese on my side and no apartment, had spouses visa.

1st night we spend with a friend of my wife.
2nd day we went looking for an apartment, found one within 3 hrs (record time) moved in next day.
After 2 month I found a job in a company that does programming consulting, they had quiet a few "gaijin" there, mostly chinese.
After 1 yr I changed my job to my current company, where I do consultation and development for our japanese clients.
About 5yrs ago we moved to current apartment, again found one in a very short time (2 hrs), again no hassles.
We were even allowed to pay deposit over 2 months. Landlord insisted on Apartment being in my Wifes name though. No biggie.

Immigration so far has been a dream, no probs, no hassles. Got permanent residence quickly.

Never been stopped by a cop nor was ever asked to produce my alien registration card.

Maybe I am one of the lucky few.

I know that my previous employment record in the IT industry helped me get 2 good jobs, with the only problem being low japanese ability.
Some of the offers I got I turned down for a variety of reasons.

Cheers.

Jody Holeton

15th July 2003, 06:30

Might be becaue I am in the English teaching racket!!

I am considered walking, talking entertainment BABY!!!!

WHOOOOHOOOOOOOO!

I am stopping my biatchin and goin home before I freak out even more!!

Kobe

15th July 2003, 06:33

Peter, I respect your opinions altough I do not share it. You can not compare Bananan Republics with the second largest economy in the world. I understand you do not have complains as you have the 3 "must"(Money, white, education) but, unfortunately not every one that comes to this country are in the same situation.
I´m consider myself lucky because I can see both Japans, the one for us, with the 3 "must" and the one for the rest, not only foreigners.
Koreans 3rd generation speaks better japanese than many japanese, still, Tama chan got the citizenship and they do not.
Burakumin are japanese, but for 99% of japanese people burakumin are less than human.
If a girl have been rape, better not to do anything, it will be worse and her family will lose face in the society.
Until 1996, lepers were confined in a kind of concentration camps.
Japanese are the biggest number of sexual tourism in the world.
There are more pearls, plenty of it.
But as I said, I understand your point, we can live a very nice life in Japan ignoring all these facts. Now, lets go back to our ivory tower and keep on saying who nice Japan is..........for us.
best regards,

Striking Hand

15th July 2003, 06:37

Jody.

Forgot to mention that I am currently training in the 2nd Dojo over here.

Left my previous Dojo to take up lessons under my current Sifu, both are T'ai Ji Quan.

Before you leave have a look at other job opportunities somewhere closer to the big stink.

Cheers.

Striking Hand

15th July 2003, 06:43

Kobe.

Let's face reality, japan is japan and there is no matter how much we bitch and moan that will change it.

It is not a question of ignoring the facts or not, but a question if we can do something about it. And the answer is not likely.

Can I do anything to change the plight of "gast-arbeiters" in europe, no I can't.

So, yes, I have a few advantages but less than you think:

Money - got some less than I would like.
White -Yes, but not of the superior US stock. Americans are still considered higher than other whites.
Education - Lets see started working at 17 in the IT-Industry, no high school diploma or equivalent, never been to university.

My ivory tower ain't that spotless.

Jody Holeton

15th July 2003, 06:51

Now I remember why I used to want to fight with you!!!

I was so jealous of you!!! :p

DAM!!! I still am!!!

Oh, I have looked at jobs in Tokyo. Tooooo expensive, toooo much compettion and the whole English scene here in Japan is going belly up. And I am sooooooo depressed and unhappy.

Fight the good fight Pete! I got my e-ticket, handed in my letter and I am going home!!!

Striking Hand

15th July 2003, 07:00

Jody.

I don't know many english teachers over here that are happy, most of the guys I know work for companies and are married to japanese.

I agree that the english teaching scene is getting bad, but than I think some blame also goes to the english teachers.

Article (http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/waiwai/0307/0714teachers.html)

Kobe

15th July 2003, 07:10

Yes Peter, I agree that we can do just a little, but at least we can avoid to say to the 4 corners of the world how good Japan is.
Sorry, I did not understand "gags.arbeiters", my english is not that good.
Anyway, a pleasure to discuss in this forum. I´m learning a lot.

Jody, are you leaving Japan?

Best regards.

Striking Hand

15th July 2003, 07:14

Originally posted by Kobe
Yes Peter, I agree that we can do just a little, but at least we can avoid to say to the 4 corners of the world how good Japan is.

Neither should we paint it as the black pit that many want to make it out to be.
The only way Japan will change is by more foreigners coming here and leaving positive impressions not less.

Sorry, I did not understand "gags.arbeiters", my english is not that good.

No problem it is german, my mother tongue, and bassically means "visiting workers" a term used for middle easterns & asians that come and work illegally.

Jody Holeton

15th July 2003, 08:18

Dear Kobe,

YUP!! Goin home!!
I have a whole list of problems BUT thats more p!ssing and moaning.

I have been here more than a year, I have taught ALL my classes, created the curricilum and materials for ALL my 18 classes. High school and junior high.........

I am sick of being ignored, hassled, getting no help, HELL way back in November when I was sh!tting blood the director of my private school (one of Japan's biggest) pointed in the direction of the hospital......
I have more stories.........

Long story short: I am sick, tired and depressed= I am going home.

Dear Peter,

Great article, every ALT should read it but from being an ALT (I also went to the JET interview and know quite a few JETs). ALTs are supposed to be ASSISTANTS, not TEACHERS or PETS or ENTERTAINERS.

I have my MA in TESOL! Yeah, we can do songs and games but sometimes LEARNING isn't about FUN.

Practice, practice, practice...........
No wonder ALTs just go home. I am, if I would have gotten support, taken around town, had my "TEAM-TEACHERS" help me out with lesson plans..........

I gotta go to the docs.... bye!

Vapour

15th July 2003, 09:13

Originally posted by Kobe
Vapour, I really do not understand your point, maybe is my english, maybe is that japanese way to talk and to say nothing.
Just one question, why it seems that most of all the japanese living abroad are so happy with that, til the point that many of them do not want to return to Japan, and when returning they miss so much and start to looking for jobs related with foreign companies or traveling abroad?
On the other hand, is obvious that foreigners living in Japan do not feel the same(of course, with exceptions).
I have been living in different countries and I never saw that level of complaining among foreigners. Is everybody wrong?
Best regards

Wow, More than 10 posts in less than 12 hours. Did I say something to set this off?

As a assistant warden in a student hall, I have to deal with people who are having trouble with their neighbour. Their compaints is often very legitimate sometimes not. Funny thing is that when I advice them to change room, occasionally, they refuse because they think their neghbour ought to move out. Rather than making their life easier, the seem to feel that they have to be somehow vindicated. I try to tell them it's bit pointless but.....

Well my point is, when you can't get on with people, you just can't and your life suck and you bitch a lot. Maybe, if you are not happy you really need to find new direction. Most of people do eventually and usually sooner the better.

If you have some issue with human right, I really like to know which countris is below your standard and which country are acceptable. Obviously India would be out because you brought up burakumin. Racial ranking (white->brown->black) things is pretty common everywhere. If you are white in nonwhite country, you get patronised a lot. Hey, do I dislike American because U.S.=Evil. Hmmm, not really. Do I have to endorse ¤¤¤¤ stuff in U.S. because I have a frien who happened to be American. No.

Presonally, I met people who had (or were having)great time in Japan both here in u.k. and while I was back in Japan. Few of them call Japan their second home. General trend I see is that many of them had ability to drink quite a bit and act plain silly. :)

I also know those Japanese who longed to go back to europe or north america. Something I noticed about them is that their life in Japan were going nowhere and they didn't make much out in term of language, education or career over here. When you do start to make *real* life here, you realised that you have to get on with same ¤¤¤¤ of life which they escaped from Japan.

Btw, I do agree on one thing. Working in eikaiwa gakko do suck.

P.S. is there any other Japanese in this forum?

Vapour

20th July 2003, 00:12

Originally posted by seskoad
Guys, I am still student,the end of next year I will graduate (Bachelor degree of civil engineering) from swinburne university Australia and Indonesian citizen. Any idea how to live in Japan either work or study? well i'd prefer work,hate study study and study. Language, well this one I will start next year, wont be problem since indonesian tongue easy to pronounce any word. :>

The thread went off topic.

I had a chat with a Japanese lecturer. If you are a science major, you could get an scholcarship for a post graduate course which could be quite financially rewarding. You get about 170000/180000 yen a month and I think for your fist year, you get to stay in university student hall which is quite cheap. Plus you have to work with other Japanese postgrauduate in lab so your social life won't be culturally isolated as, say, working as English teacher.

If you are still interested let me know. The application process for such scholarship can be complex.