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Cody
2nd April 2003, 03:57
I am not familiar with the samurai arts, so I am hoping someone will enlighten me.

I have had some kendo trainings a few years back. My impression was that it's just a sport/ game, and so I move on to look for other arts.

4 years later I find myself back at iaido... and I keep getting corrected about my cuts - you don't push forward in iaido, you reach up and out with the tip and draw it back in to make a big circle.

My question is... if both kenjitsu (predicessor of kendo) and iaijutsu are tools for making of samurai, why are the fundamentals so different? My instructor says kendo never was a martial art, it's just a sport ment to be played on smooth hardwood floor, and so you don't have to be aware of the environment (feel the ground, make sure you don't ram your katana into objects around you when you swing it etc).

Is that "the truth"?

My god, I am definitely on a defiant mode lately, I have to question every thing my instructors say... >_<

-C. Chu

Ric Flinn
2nd April 2003, 05:25
Originally posted by Cody

I have had some kendo trainings a few years back. My impression was that it's just a sport/ game, and so I move on to look for other arts.


Well I certainly feel, along with many others here, that this is an incorrect assumption. But when I was first learning about these arts I made that assumption as well. I'm very glad my opinion has changed.

If it's being taught the way it is intended to be practiced, kendo is most certainly a martial art first, and a "sport" second.

You ask about kendo, kenjutsu, and iai; all three of these, I feel, teach a different but equally valuable part of swordsmanship as a whole.

Kenjutsu teaches you numerous techniques and applications (through kata) of dealing with an opponent, possibly armored, or weilding a different weapon, while you're using a wooden sword.

Iai teaches you the fundamentals of handling a live sword, and using it to defend yourself in day-to-day (for a samurai) situations.

Kendo puts you against an opponent who's main goal is to kill you before you kill them. You don't know how they're going to react. The target areas may be limited, but that just means you have to have that much more control. Kendo, above the others, also teaches you to focus every ounce of your spirit on killing your opponent, no matter what.

Each of these arts has its own niche that it fills. Kendo in itself might not be realistic fencing, but it's no more or less realistic than kenjutsu or iai. Don't be too quick to dismiss it as a sport or a game.

Just my opinions, of course.

pgsmith
2nd April 2003, 20:49
Hi Cody,
You are trying to over-simplify things. You wrote ...
My question is... if both kenjitsu (predicessor of kendo) and iaijutsu are tools for making of samurai, why are the fundamentals so different?
It all depends upon the schools involved. You say that you are being taught to reach up and out with the tip to make a big circle. I can think of a couple of schools off the top of my head that say that is incorrect. I can also think of several that advocate that kind of cut. You see, there are many different schools of sword still existing. Each of them will have a slgihtly different philosophy and way of doing things. To examine how things are done in kendo, you have to go back to it's origins as well as its current philosophy. Likewise with iaido.

Bear in mind that what your instructor tells you to do is the correct thing for the style you are learning. It may have zero bearing on another style. It also may not make much sense to you until later. Don't get impatient.

Cheers,

DCPan
3rd April 2003, 02:05
Originally posted by Cody


4 years later I find myself back at iaido... and I keep getting corrected about my cuts - you don't push forward in iaido, you reach up and out with the tip and draw it back in to make a big circle.

My question is... if both kenjitsu (predicessor of kendo) and iaijutsu are tools for making of samurai, why are the fundamentals so different? My instructor says kendo never was a martial art, it's just a sport ment to be played on smooth hardwood floor, and so you don't have to be aware of the environment (feel the ground, make sure you don't ram your katana into objects around you when you swing it etc).



Treat the cut as an ellipse.

In Kendo, you obviously can't cut THROUGH someone. So, at the point of the contact, your cut has reached the ZENITH or the APOGEE of the ellipse.

In Iai, you don't have that problem, so you can finish that part that happens after the blade passes the point of maximum extension.

There...conflict resolved.

As for not being aware of the environment, if you are not, you will be very unpopular in a crowded dojo when your cuts land on your partner next to you instead of the partner IN FRONT of you.

Or, in my case, being taiataried into fold-up chairs by the sensei.... :D

stevemcgee99
3rd April 2003, 07:23
In the same dojo, one sensei demonstrates a cut as you describe: tip up, big circle, etc. (of course, you must stop at the target). The next sensei shows me more of a "pushing" action. I get inconsistent directtions on most evrything.

As a beginner, I could not say which I should try to do. In fact, probably both. If you don't understand the technique, there is likely to be much that you aren't doing correctly. THen, each time someone gives you advice, they may be targeting a specific problem. You shouldn't assume the techniuqe can be summarized in a single sentense.

Even with the most thorough, well-explained coaching. the beginner probably won't understand the directions fully anyway. Only experience, a personal series of trial and error, can get you closer. I recommend watching those with proper technique closely, especially when they're focusing on doing it "perfectly" as a good way to learn.

Here's another thought: spelling bees aren't a sport. They are meant to challenge the student to practice what they've learned under pressure, and include competition (you can win the spelling bee) in order to eventually master th language. Kendo seems the same to me. Shiai is the pressure the kendoka needs to perform the technique naturally, and competition can be the motivation to keep practicing when you're tired or The Simpson's Halloween Special is on TV.

Dan Harden
3rd April 2003, 14:20
Cody

There are many ways to cut with a sword. Most people who know nothing can cut with one.
Cuttng something with a blade is the least of your worries. There is much more to learn in body mechanics, technique, mental assessment and preparedness. I can show you two very competent cutters who cut things with completely different styles. It is-far more complicated than simply cutting.
As for your comparison-some people would fall down laughing at the notion of an Iaidoka referring to ANY other sword style's "artificiality." That is truly rich. And then again some Iaidoka will tell you they are the Japanese version of the quick draw artist, the every-ready samurai.
Its all ho-hum all around.
I know people who can cut with their hips barely moving at all. and engage a counter cut with little motion and much rapdidity. Others take big open swings with much dedication of hip and shoulders with the chest spread, which makes the idea of a counter cut a slower affair. Both will talk to you of viability till you fall asleep, some will talk to you of irrelevant minutia such as turning your foot 5 deg. and lifting your wrist above or below blade angle yadda yadda.. and then try to convince you it all makes a world of difference. Men take simple things and turn it into a higly complicated affair.
Have fun winding your way through it all.
Most martial artists suck. They dream of an ability they will never know or own. Just keep training. In the end you too will suck and never know it-or be self effacing and suck- or you may become fairly able. And no one will ever be able to tell you or convince you otherwise. Then you can come back here and debate the nonsense of it all with the best of them.
If you want to train with someone -do what they tell you. Years later you may or may not learn it was merely stylistic dogma, or it may have been technically relevant and irreplacable skill....or it may have been more Japanese martial art non-sense.
You won't know for years.
Good luck
Dan

Charles Mahan
3rd April 2003, 16:15
Wow Dan. You are in truly rare form today.

T. ALVAREZ
3rd April 2003, 19:07
Dan,
Now that's my kind of post:)

Big Tony
Senpokan Dojo
Bugei Trading Co.

Walker
3rd April 2003, 20:26
Hey! I represent that comment Dan!

Oh, and I SUCK way more than you do. So there!

:moon:

Gene Williams
3rd April 2003, 21:43
Damn, Dan. I find myself agreeing with our post. You are a bit cranky today, though.:D Gene

Cody
3rd April 2003, 22:05
Originally posted by Dan Harden

.
.
.
Have fun winding your way through it all.
Most martial artists suck. They dream of an ability they will never know or own. Just keep training. In the end you too will suck and never know it-or be self effacing and suck- or you may become fairly able. And no one will ever be able to tell you or convince you otherwise. Then you can come back here and debate the nonsense of it all with the best of them.
If you want to train with someone -do what they tell you. Years later you may or may not learn it was merely stylistic dogma, or it may have been technically relevant and irreplacable skill....or it may have been more Japanese martial art non-sense.
You won't know for years.


Thank you, I didn't realize how much I have to ... umm... "look forward to". Thank you for enlightening me :eek:

BTW, in response to those who suggest this might just be a matter of different school / style doing things differently:

I actually studied Kendo and Iaido from the same instructor. That's partly what's so baffling about it. I have to unlearn something taught by the same instructor a few years ago, in order to learn a different sword art taught by the same man! But I think I get the picture, even within kendo/ iaido, there are many different ways to cut. From the above responses, I can assure you I am fully convinced that a beginner like myself will benefit much from willful ignorant. I will content with doing whatever my instructor tells me to w/o questioning from now :o

Budo
-Cody

Charles Mahan
3rd April 2003, 22:11
Oh it's worse than you imagine Cody. Not only are there different ryu of Iaido that advocate different forms of cutting, there are different groups within the same ryu that cut somewhat differently in terms of how big that circular motion is and the shape. There are even differences within the same ryu-ha. As my instructor is fond of saying. Do it this way, but file the other way.

Ric Flinn
4th April 2003, 00:17
I agree with you there, Charles. Everybody does things just a little bit differently, even in the same art. It's just a fact of life; train with five different instructors, and you'll do things five different ways.

But I don't think it's that difficult really. I train in iai, kendo, kenjutsu (as well as jo), and each art does its cutting action in vastly different ways, but I don't have much trouble switching between them. Now, I didn't start them all at the same time; I had the kihon down in each before adding the next, but now I can switch modes pretty quickly.