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luar
11th April 2003, 15:08
I was recently contacted by someone in St Petersburg who saw an embu demonstration and was asking about how different our Ukemi is from other martial arts such as Judo and Aikdio.

I could not answer this guy's question but is there any reason why we don't slap the ground after a throw and instead cushion the throw by landing on one foot? By chance, I started to learn this technique last week and was surprise how little the impact was.

My best guess to my question is that I when learned this ukemi it came after I attack the defender with a two handed grab to his wrist and he flipped me while holding both of my hands (ryoute oshigote). So I guess what I am saying is that it looks like the "slapping" method only applies for predictable throws. I can also see how slapping would also prevent us from fully completing a roll (mae ukemi) and onto feet or a prepatory stance (fukko gamae)

Enlighten me.

tony leith
11th April 2003, 16:27
I am not the world's foremost ukemi expert, but I think it's fairly important to draw a distinction between ukemi waza and nage - to be sure, both are about controlling the kind of impact you get when you hit the ground, but from somewhat different conditions. The use of the feet to absorb the initial impact in nage waza is presumably because by and large if you're being thrown from a standing position your hands are not free - flipping your body over to get your feet (or foot) down first is then prety much your only option (apart from having joints go ping), while bridging slightly on impact so that the next point of contact is hopefully the more muscular upper back and shoulders rather than the kidneys...

for ukemi waza, for example mae ukemi, while you might not be going over voluntarily, the ability to get your hands down first does seem to imply more control over the situation. From what I've seen, the main difference between kempo and aikido type breakfalls is that in kempo ukemi the arms are supposed to absorb the momentum of the fall, allowing you to control the subsquent roll ( hence the momentary holding of fuko gamae afterwards to demonstrate this control). The reason for this as first explained to me seemed fair enough - if you were called upon to do this outside the dojo being able to stop quite rapidly could be very useful. Likewise, slapping the ground might be a valid technique on the mat, but the consequences on concrete don't really bear thinking about. Apologies to any aikidoka reading this - I've attended about two aikido classes in my life, so my impressions of aikido breakfalls might well be misleading. Hope this helped rather than hindered...

Tony leith

David Dunn
11th April 2003, 17:26
Tony - the distinction between nage and ukemi is that nage means `throw' while `ukemi' is something like `protecting the body'. So nage is something that is done to you, or that you do to someone else, while ukemi is something you do yourself.

You can make a 'flying ukemi' (tobi ukemi?) to release the pressure of a nage waza. I think the main reason for taking the main impact on the ball of the foot is to enable aite to perform nage waza on an unmatted floor.

I believe that Shorinji Kempo's mae and ushiro ukemi are very similar to those of Aikido, except that both hands are used in the most basic version of the Shorinji Kempo ukemi. The Aikido version leads with one hand only, and has the palm facing away from the floor I think (correct me if I'm wrong). Very similar to a way Kawashima Sensei demonstrated for improving your ukemi after getting the hang of the basic method.

I also think that the flying ukemi of each method are very similar: the foot lands first and the arm can come into play after that, as well as the other foot (again correct me if I'm wrong). You should not flip yourself so much as relax and not resist the technique.

The purpose of ukemi is partly to look after yourself, but also to enable aite to practice the waza properly without you collapsing in an undignified heap, possibly head first.

Just my tu'pence ha'penny worth.

cheunglo
23rd April 2003, 09:24
I practiced Judo for 2-3 years before Shorinji Kempo. The Judo break-fall is a completely different technique to the Kempo forward roll. They are useful in different situations against different attacks.

In simple terms, classic mainstream Judo techniques, like Ippon Seo Nage, differ from their Kempo counterparts in that there is body contact almost from thigh to shoulder. In contrast, many Kempo Juho techniques have arm-to-arm contact only. When you are thrown by a mainstream Judo technique, you are rolled over your partner's body to hit the ground almost vertically on your back. The only degree-of-freedom you have to break your fall is to slap your free arm on the ground so that your body does not hit with quite so much force. I consider these throws to be gravity-based techniques. Once your feet leaves the ground, the laws of Physics take over.

In constrast, when you are thrown by Gyaku Gote, there is hand-to-wrist contact only. The key differentiator, however, is that this is a pain-based technique on a weak point. If you were able to control pain, you could choose to have your wrist broken! If you choose not to have your wrist broken, you have a lot more freedom to move: you could choose to fall to the ground or to cart-wheel over your wrist and break your fall by landing feet first in the classic Kempo Nage.

In other terms, the main difference in application between Judo break-falls and Kempo rolls in the amount of horizontal momemtum. Kempo rolls need horizontal motion in order to work, Judo break-falls do not. If you do not believe this, have two of your colleagues hold you flat a couple of feet of the ground and then letting go.

tony leith
23rd April 2003, 12:13
I have gone to a couple of aikido classes out of interest (which hardly constitutes much of a knowledge base, I'm fully aware), hence my observation that there is a difference between aikido and kempo breakfalls in terms of the arms absorbing much of the momentum you have on initial contact with the floor (in mae ukemi) and actually slowing you down appreciably. The commments on judo breakfalling are interesting - as a matter of further interest is this technique intended basically for use on the mat only (this wouldn't be a criticism, it'd be fair enough).

nage waza is an element of Kempo which I personally am not too keen on because of what the shock of repeated landings might do to my less than robust knees - you might perfectly well retort that I should learn to do it properly. My response is that unfortunately is that I have a finite amount of knee cartilage with which to learn, as well as do all the other things I want to to do until I die (like walk, for example...)

Tony leith

Tripitaka of AA
23rd April 2003, 12:37
Learn to do them properly!

Tripitaka of AA
23rd April 2003, 12:41
Unlike me!


I used to land on part of the back of my pelvis as I rolled, every damn time. I ended up with a sensitive spot that would just ache permanently. It has gone now, but it lasted for ages. I reckon it was a combination of banging the bone, and sciatica. Wish I had learned to roll properly in the first place... but I was glad when I was allowed to Nage instead, as it was less painful :)

David Dunn
23rd April 2003, 12:50
nage waza is an element of Kempo which I personally am not too keen on

It is difficult for your partner to practice some of the waza unless you can make a good ukemi. I think in some cases the easiest way to receive a nage waza is to just relax and see where you go. Sometimes this is up and over, particularly if Mizuno Sensei makes the irresistable kuzushi :D

tony leith
23rd April 2003, 14:52
Ha. yes, I remember once I had people standing around applauding after Stuart Tatlock threw me at a one day seminar - "brilliant nage" I was told. All I'd known about it was delivering chudan gyaku zuki, then looking up at the ceiling and wondering how I'd ended up prone on the deck. That was definitely an instance of being thrown. I agree that some of the later waza - katate nage - it does become quite difficult to execute them if you can't nage well. On the other hand, I do remember Aosaka Sensei saying at summer camp (I think) that the practical application was basically just to take the opponent (partner if you prefer) down - he wasn't quite saying that nage waza is showbiz, but he did seem to be saying that one of its purposes is display...

BTW Dave excellent article on hokei on the BSKF website - exactly the sort of things that deters me from submitting my less scholarly musings on such subjects to George (any excuse, eh?)

Tony leith

George Hyde
24th April 2003, 16:53
A few random thoughts on ukemi in nage waza...

There is a tendency to suggest (as was above) that full tilt nage ukemi is just for show - and that's understandable given the fact that it's a damn site easier to learn how to fly through the air than it is to learn how to MAKE someone fly though the air.

This is how I see the progression of ukemi in nage waza...

Step one: as the recipient of nage waza (e.g. gyaku gote), we first learn to comfortably accommodate the technique by gently rolling (almost sitting) to the floor without our partner actually applying the technique fully

Setp two: once we're able to do this without too much discomfort or risk of injury, our partner is then able to apply the technique with a little more realism

Step three: we learn how to execute full nage-ukemi properly and safely via a variety of controlled exercises, usually in pairs, out of context

Step four: we learn how to incorporate what we learned in step three in context, i.e. co-operatively, with our partner taking the same approach as for step one

Step five: Our partner is now able to apply techniques fully, safe in the knowledge that we can avoid joint damage with a dynamic ukemi that won't result in other kinds of damage when we land

For most of us, the fact that we learn how to be thrown and don't yet know how to make someone fly gives the impression that nobody would REALLY fly through the air like that. Well, I've been thrown around enough times by Mizuno Sensei and Yasue Sensei (a woman half my size) to know that a) it IS possible to make someone fly, whether they like it or not, and b) had I not learned nage-ukemi properly I'd have been in a bit of a mess.

As a side note - I actually didn't have the luxury of learning this way and (as a 4th kyu) found myself having no choice but to respond to a fully applied technique with full nage ukemi. I can only assume that I didn't injure my joint because I allowed the technique to fully take its course and allowed my body to respond naturally to avoid injury. As for the landing is concerned, I had the benefit of seeing how it was supposed to be a few times - the rest is down to luck I suppose. The really strange thing is that this was also kote nage from Stuart Tatlock... hmmm... The advice he gave prior to the technique was, "Just let your head fly towards the floor!" And I DID??

Later,

David Dunn
24th April 2003, 17:09
I pretty much agree George. Sensei's way of making kuzushi involves making aite's head go down and leg leave the floor to a point higher than the head - quite a difficult position to just fall over from. You probably remember him saying this was a successful application. It was the same day he said "there's no such thing as kagite shuho". Hmm.

By the way...


"Just let your head fly towards the floor!" And I DID??


Edited on request by the poster.

tony leith
24th April 2003, 17:47
Slightly unexpected lowering of the tone there from Dave, given the usually elevated nature of his discourse.

I confess I still have problems with nage waza. I don't question George's logic of how to progress through learning nage waza, nor the suggestion that you basically let it happen, or accept that you don't have a lot of choice about it and let physics take its (their?) course. George's claim that your body knows how to protect itself may well be true of innately well coordinated individuals, but I have to say I have my reservations about just letting my body 'get on with it'. More or less everything I can do in Shorinji Kempo has been the result of an extended learning process. On the other hand, about the most catastrophic thing I've ever done with ukemi waza was consciously thinking half way through a 'superman' mae ukemi "now, how do you land again"... crash and burn.

I also remember conquering my initial scepticism re. ippon se nage, when Sensei just had us try it at Brixton without benefit of crash mats, paramedics on standby etc. Afira did it, went up effortlessly and landed deftly on her feet, but then she is one of these innately well coordinated individuals. I only started to get the hang of it when I realsied that basically the throwee's only contribution was to arch their back slightly as they go over. I still don't see me attaining the level of being able to apparently decelerate in mid air, which I've seen people do.

I'd also be interested in George's comments on the question I raised earlier (assuming he reckons it worthy of dignifying with a response, that is)

Tony leith

Tripitaka of AA
24th April 2003, 19:47
I mentioned in another thread some time ago about Takemori sensei (then General Secretary of WSKO) who visited for a BSKF Gasshuku at Kent University. A rather large round gentleman who, as a late replacement for Arai sensei, had to use Ippon Se Nage to catch our attention. He was demonstrating with a Busen student, quite young and skinny (aren't they all), and told him to "throw me". The spectators were sympathising with the busen kenshi, wondering just how heavy Takemori sensei could be. He flew like a butterfly and on landing he despatched the busen into orbit. Cue a collective buzz of approval from the audience and everyone leaning forward to concentrate on the rest of the demo.

I got a similar reaction from the audience at Poole Sports Centre one year when they hosted the Annual Taikai. I landed a nage with one leg folded underneath me and out at a scary angle. People thought I must have dislocated knee, hip and ankle all at once, but fortunately that is just the way my legs go :D. Freaked out my partner a little, and nearly had Mizuno sensei on his feet ready to put me back together, but we carried on and all was well.

Aaah, such happy memories. And Kadowaki Yasue sensei was a favourite visitor to the Abbey Dojo, who had us round at her house for several celebration meals. I send her my fond regards and so does Yoriko (my Mrs who was lucky enough to train with Yasue sensei quite often due to their similar heights, despite the gap in grades. Yasue sensei was brown belt at the time and Yoriko would have been no higher than green).

George Hyde
25th April 2003, 14:19
Originally posted by tony leith
George's claim that your body knows how to protect itself may well be true of innately well coordinated individuals, but I have to say I have my reservations about just letting my body 'get on with it'.

Not quite ready yet to be making 'claims' yet but I am in the process of investigating the nature of pain in techniques. The common perception that pain is 'the body's way of protecting itself' is gradually being proven to be a bit of a narrow (though not wholly incorrect) definition.

It all comes down to proprioception. This amounts to a massive network of sensory receptors and coded responses which function below the level of consciousness, essentially it's the body's awareness of itself. Receptors on muscles and tendons give out signals that trigger automatic responses so that in the case of a joint reversal for example, the dropping of the shoulder is not an entirely conscious decision - its an appropriate response to the degree of stress registered in the tendons and muscles - the more severe and intense the stress, the more severe and less conscious the response. Note that this need not amount to what would be described as 'pain' - simply the fact that the mechanics of the body are being put through movements or stress that exceed normal operating standards necessitates the appropriate response.

When it comes to effective nage waza, we are dealing with a much more subtle function of proprioception - that of balance. In the simplest of cases the taking of balance results in a step to regain balance and prevent a fall. By taking balance in the correct manner, we can prevent the step and instigate a fall - a fairly 'low level' technique. In advanced application this means instigating a proprioceptive response which makes the opponent leap from the ground. In essence, the experienced practitioner is essentially instigating proprioceptive responses over which the attacker has no conscious control. Learning effective nage-ukemi ensures that when this takes place we minimise the possibility of damage on landing.

Obviously, with experience we can learn to resist and explore other responses which override the proprioceptive ones, but in doing so we are risking damage. In the case of katate nage for example, at the moment of action the body is screaming out for us to leap from the ground. However, our graduated familiarity with the mechanics of what's involved, coupled with our training partner's tendancy toward NOT wanting to cause damage allows us to hinder the appropriate response (whilst weighing up the pros and cons of joint damage versus crashing to the ground at high speed) and ends up giving the impression that nage-ukemi is always a choice and therefore not very realistic.


Originally posted by tony leith
I'd also be interested in George's comments on the question I raised earlier (assuming he reckons it worthy of dignifying with a response, that is)[/B]

Remind me of the question and I'll see how much dignity I can spare :)

Later,

tony leith
25th April 2003, 22:07
Now this is interesting stuff - if this is where your autodidacticism is taking you in terms of applying psychology (or the science of perception) I'm all for it (I know you'll be happy to have my endorsement). It occured to me some time ago that a partner's 'mental map' of what is going on in any given situation is key to breaking their balance - I see Mizuno Sensei's calm assertion of a couple of years agop that 'there is no kagite shuho' in this light (said to the dull clang of jaws hitting the floor all around him). If we can get to a more rigorous understanding of what's going on it can only be helpful. I have thought for a while that we should be more prepared to be receptive to the insights of sports science/physiology/hell neuroscience if it comes to it as far as our training is concerned.

Tony leith

David Dunn
27th April 2003, 14:55
Slightly unexpected lowering of the tone there from Dave, given the usually elevated nature of his discourse.

Yes, sorry about that. I guess if you are familiar with Clueless Joe you'd realise that he is in fact the product of an elevated discourse concerning the dumbed down contributions to much internet discussion. He has a letter published in the Face this month (I haven't seen it).

Regarding George's comments about proprioception (I confess that this is the first time I've heard the expression), they make much more sense in an actual training environment. He and I were discussing such matters yesterday in Brixton, and it is clear that you can make the human body react in certain ways without any pain or power at all, including the loss of being upright. I guess developing this latter point into a SPECTACULAR loss of balance is to begin to understand juho properly.

Tripitaka of AA
27th April 2003, 19:47
... now you wouldn't be talking about anything paranormal here would you ;)

We wouldn't want a Reiki attack on the Shorinji Kempo board :eek:.


(I'm still trying to find time to read all those pages on the Reiki threads, just to catch up on the gossip. Anyone who hasn't seen them should take a look, if you're wondering why Kimpatsu hasn't posted for a bit).

David Dunn
28th April 2003, 14:47
... now you wouldn't be talking about anything paranormal here would you

Of course not David, just something very difficult to emulate :)


We wouldn't want a Reiki attack on the Shorinji Kempo board

Heh heh. My girlfriend was offered a Reiki treatment by a friend of hers at the weekend. Her synopsis was that it made her feel like she needed a massage. George and I were solicited for our opinions of the said practice over dinner that evening. I think we managed to temper our skepticism (a bit) :toast:

Tripitaka of AA
28th April 2003, 20:09
Does Mochizuki Isamu still train under Mizuno Sensei? He was a second dan back in 88 if I recall correctly, probably about ten years older than me.

Through an odd connection I found myself knocking at his door when I was taking Yoriko for a treatment for a shoulder injury. He had been recommended by her boss, and I didn't recognise the name until he opened the door. I sat and watched him do what I thought was Chinese medicine (yes, I know, he's Japanese), but perhaps it was what is called Reiki, I don't know.

We were impressed by the results, although not remotely interested in discovering what mysterious forces had been used to achieve it. There was very little hocus-pocus as I recall and I would probably suggest him to friends who needed similar help.

I wonder if Kimpatsu knew he was training with a "charlatan, con-artist".