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hobbitbob
12th April 2003, 05:24
Hello all. I'm hoping some of you with far more knowledge of Kata origins than I posess might be able to satisfy my curiosity. Having switched recently from Shotokan to Seibukan, I was wondering if anyone knew what tradition the version of Chinto used in Shotokan/Wado-Ryu comes from? Apparently the Seibukan and Matsubayashi Chinto is derived from Kyan, Chotoku. Is the other version (which I've taken to calling "Funakoshi Chinto") from the Itosu lineage?
Thank you.
Robert L. Welch
Denver, CO.

Rob Alvelais
12th April 2003, 05:44
Wado's Chinto is similar to Gankaku of Shotokan. This makes sense, given that Ohtsuka was a student of Funakoshi.

Gankaku follows very closely the Shito Ryu Chinto. Not that it come from shito ryu, but the kata are similar. Our lore, in Shito Ryu is that the kata comes from Itosu. I've got a video of Frank Hargrove (Nakazato's student)doing Chinto and it's almost the same as our Chinto. So, I would guess that Funakoshi's chinto comes from the Itosu lineage.

Rob

shisochin#1
12th April 2003, 13:25
I beleve there are 2 basic versions the straight line one I belive from itosu we refer to it as shuri chinto and the dianganel version wich i belive has its roots in tomari ? I am no expert on this but it makes sense to me . Dont know if this helps but I hope so . I too would like to know more about the 2 different kata from what ive seen they are very different in the feel of the kata.

Victor
12th April 2003, 15:04
I've seen several different versions of Chinto.

Those from the Itosu lineage (Funakoshi came from there) do their Chinto in a straight line to the front and back. Starting to 12 o'clock.

Those from the Kyan lineage (Matsubayshi Ryu, Seibukan and Isshinryu for example) do their Chinto on a 45 degree line. Starting to 10:30 o'clock.

Those from the Tomari tradition do their Chinto on a line side do side. Starting to 9 o'clock.

Now while the line or embusen of the form is different, the overall technique sequence is rather related between the differeng versions.

One could surmise there was a root Chinto which was varied by different instructors as time passed. But good luck trying to figure out which was first.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

hobbitbob
12th April 2003, 20:14
As I continue in this theme, several of us were discussing the variation of Rohai at teh "post class class (Old Chicago Pizza!)" and I mentioned the Shotokan version, "Meikyo." Note to readers: Attempting to demonstrate Meikyo in Old Chicago Pizza will generate strange looks from non-karateka diners! :) How many versions of Rohai are extant?

Rob Alvelais
12th April 2003, 21:00
Meikyo, to my eye, looks like a shotokanization of an amalgam of Itosu Rohai Nidan and Sandan.

I remember back when I was doing Shotokan, and learning Meikyo. The Shotokan Lore was that it came from Rohai, but the Rohai I had seen the Shito Ryu guys do was Matsumura ha Rohai. Later on, after I had changed to Shito Ryu, I learned (and then forgot) Itosu Rohai Shodan thru Nidan as well as Matsumura ha Rohai (didn't forget that one).

Rob




Originally posted by hobbitbob
As I continue in this theme, several of us were discussing the variation of Rohai at teh "post class class (Old Chicago Pizza!)" and I mentioned the Shotokan version, "Meikyo." Note to readers: Attempting to demonstrate Meikyo in Old Chicago Pizza will generate strange looks from non-karateka diners! :) How many versions of Rohai are extant?

Gene Williams
12th April 2003, 21:42
We do the Kyan version of Chinto, which is what you will find in Nagamine's book, "The Essence of Okinawan Karate Do." It is done on the diagonal, and looks nothing like what the JKA guys do, which we always heard them call "Gankaku." I have seen Shogo Kuniba do a version of Gankaku that had neko ashi dachi, mae geri, and other more Okinawan looking features. He spoke of it as "another version" of Chinto. Perhaps this is the Shuri version that was mentioned. The one he taught was usually the Nagamine version which, I believe he said, he learned from Nagamine. I have never seen the side to side version...that should be a trip! Chinto (Kyan) is a fine kata, with lots of really useful applications and some fundamental moves that have many possibilities. It feels like Bassai Dai after too much espresso and done on the diagonal:D Gene

hobbitbob
12th April 2003, 22:01
Originally posted by Gene Williams
We do the Kyan version of Chinto, which is what you will find in Nagamine's book, "The Essence of Okinawan Karate Do." It is done on the diagonal, and looks nothing like what the JKA guys do, which we always heard them call "Gankaku." I have seen Shogo Kuniba do a version of Gankaku that had neko ashi dachi, mae geri, and other more Okinawan looking features. He spoke of it as "another version" of Chinto. Perhaps this is the Shuri version that was mentioned. The one he taught was usually the Nagamine version which, I believe he said, he learned from Nagamine. I have never seen the side to side version...that should be a trip! Chinto (Kyan) is a fine kata, with lots of really useful applications and some fundamental moves that have many possibilities. It feels like Bassai Dai after too much espresso and done on the diagonal:D Gene
My first night at the Seibukan Dojo we did Chinto and Bunkai, and like a hungry trout, I was hooked! :) This has become my newest "favourite Kata."

Gene Williams
12th April 2003, 22:16
Robert, Don't do the kata too fast, a common problem, and if you are losing your balance you aren't "sitting" into the stances enough;) Gene

hobbitbob
12th April 2003, 22:29
I'm in no danger of doing Chinto too fast! I'm still in the "which direction do I go now," phase. :) The thing that is proving more difficult than it probably should is staying on the 45 degree angle.

shisochin#1
12th April 2003, 23:18
The thing that is proving more difficult than it probably should is staying on the 45 degree angle.

I can agree wiht that it has proven to be a proablem with me as well as maybe trying to do it to fast(as im sure shihan Williams is shaking his head as he reads this ) . However I like this kata alot it has a different feel to it then other kata .

hobbitbob
12th April 2003, 23:25
Seibukan (and Okinawan karate in general) has a different 'feel' to it than Shotokan. IT feels more 'combative,' and (although I hate this word) 'effective.' I'm having to learn to move differently. I love it! I'm not too old a dog! :D

Victor
13th April 2003, 00:22
The Isshinryu Chinto derives from the Kyan version, and is likewise done on the 45 degree angle.

My instuctors used to impress a 'story' version describing a kumite on a narrow bridge or path. While the story being true or not is irrelevant to the kata performance or usage, it has a useful note.

The concept of doing the kata on a narrow bridge (or path) is you have to keep focused to stay in the center, elsewise you could be forced off. The used to put two bo's on the floor in a parallel 45 degree lane and you and to work the kata between them.

Over the years when I was teaching in Scranton, we used to do the kata on a narrow bridge over a culvert in McDade Park outside of town, and the bo's were a useful training device in that instance.

These days we have a narrow pathway near my house, between bushes and provides a very nice course to see if you can run the turns of Chinto in the middle.

This isn't a 'story' exercise. Chinto is the art of turning, and use of turns in defense. The tigheter you can execute those turns, the more specific your application ability. So the story has a defined use.

From an applications standpoint, you can find incredible similarity between BaguaZhang technique and those in Chinto. Likewise almost the entire Aikido vocabulary can be found in Chinto. And from Tai Chi Chaun's Da Lu drill, it is also contained within Chinto. And all the above are intergrated with Chinto's striking and kicking too.

So I find any of its versions great challenges for us.

The comment about speed is quite telling. There's something about the Kyan based Chinto that makes us want to cruse through it at high speed.

Great topic,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

And for Rohai, if you've ever seen the Tomari Rohai it is quite different, done in one lengthy line forward on the whole.

Gene Williams
13th April 2003, 02:26
I used to put a piece of tape on the floor at a diagonal to shomen and call it the "Chinto tape." Victor is correct, it is all about turning in tight little circles and staying on line. When you do the take downs, the tighter you turn, the harder they fall:D Gene

21st April 2003, 15:22
Check out this book on Chinto, it is very good..

Isshinryu Chinto Kata, Secrets Revealed
by Javier Martinez

Even thought it is Isshinryu, the info and principles in it apply to all styles of Chinto. Look it up at Amazon.

fuwafuwausagi
24th April 2003, 06:57
It was written:

Check out this book on Chinto, it is very good..

My reply:

If you don't have somehting nice to say...

regards,

Sanseru
27th April 2003, 19:13
Well I guess I will be the one to decent here and stick my neck out.

The final two postures in "Nanshaolin Wuzu Quan", on pg. 409, illustrations 67-1 & 67-2 are shown for Chen Tou or 'sinking the head' are reminiscent of the opening of the Tomari Chinto kata.

In Kinjo Akio's research, he did NOT say that the two kata were the same, but simply speculated that there MAY be a connection. He simply stated that there is a similarity in the opening and closing postures of the two forms. i.e. The opening posture of the Tomari based Chinto kata and the final move of 5 Ancestor Chen Tou are analagous, nothing more - nothing less.

Given there is a strong Fujian chuan'fa root in most, if not all Okinawan karate, then it is worthwhile to examine what connections and
relationships there may or may not be between Okinawan based kata and
Fujian xing. I believe this is what Kinjo Akio was doing.


Regards,

Mario

Sochin
17th May 2003, 19:24
We do a version we call Yabu chinto that is mostly on the45º and makes an x. It starts by skipping back on the angle.

i tried to learn Gankaku years ago from Funakoshi's book, To-De but when it got me spinning around and blocking back in the same direction I was facing before I spun, I quit, deciding that I was doing something very wrong and not understanding the move at all!! Too funny. :)

We also do Itosu Lohai Ich, Ni and San, and this is the first I've heard of other Rohai, very interesting... I assume, since it's from Itosu, these are the Shotokan Lohai.

Gene Williams
18th May 2003, 02:15
No, no, no...Itosu did not do Shotokan...that was Funakoshi's little expriment. Rohai is a Tomari kata done by Shorin and Shito schools primarily. Shotokan has no connection with Itosu other than Funakoshi studied under him. Rohai is about as far from anything JKA as anything I can imagine. And, shame on you for trying to learn kata from a book:p Gene P.S. Rohai Ni and San are latter day kata. Stick with just plain old Rohai and forget the JKA version.

Rob Alvelais
18th May 2003, 15:23
The Rohai that one typically sees us Shito Ryu guys doing, is Matsumura Rohai. Itosu created 3 more kata called Rohai and they're known as "Itosu Rohai" shodan thru sandan. So, if you're really, really old, like Gene and complain about those kids, Itosu and Higaonna messing with things , then Itosu Rohai are latter Day kata. ;)

Or Gene, did you just forget to capitalize the "L" there and you meant that the Itosu Rohai were somehow associated with Joseph Smith or Brigham Young?

Rob


Originally posted by Gene Williams
No, no, no...Itosu did not do Shotokan...that was Funakoshi's little expriment. Rohai is a Tomari kata done by Shorin and Shito schools primarily. Shotokan has no connection with Itosu other than Funakoshi studied under him. Rohai is about as far from anything JKA as anything I can imagine. And, shame on you for trying to learn kata from a book:p Gene P.S. Rohai Ni and San are latter day kata. Stick with just plain old Rohai and forget the JKA version.

CEB
18th May 2003, 15:40
The tribe I practice with sometimes that does Rohai has three of them also. Rohai Sho, Rohai Dai and Rohai Chu. Are these same forms with different naming convention. The one I can remember looks sort of like the Rohai that Shito Ryu kids do at tournaments except what they do looks more Japanese. I THINK this one is Rohai Chu.

Gene Williams
18th May 2003, 16:43
O.K. Ed, get Nagamine's book, "The Essence of Okinawan Karate Do," and look in the kata section at Rohai. That is Rohai. Rohai Ni has hooking blocks at the beginning and some elbows, I think...I don't do the thing, being an OLD GUY, Rob, and think it is kind of unnecessary. Rohai (Matsumura) is one of my very favorite kata, so when you do it, do it right:mad: Pushups:D Gene

TimJurgens
27th May 2003, 16:17
Hello all,

I had originally learned the Matsumura Shorinryu version of Chinto from Alan Griffin and Tony Sandovol Sensei. I have within the last 6 years or so relearned the kata from Hiroshi Akamine Sensei who's lineage involves influence from Funakoshi Shorinryu by means of Taira Shinken Dai Sensei. The Kata are very similar but in the Funakoshi version the one legged kick is now a side kick (makes turning particulary interesting), the initial jumping double front kick goes straight but lands at a 45%, and the okustu dachi turns are done clockwise instead of counter clockwise. Lastly the final punch to the rear is emphasised a little more to make it seem a bit more like some of the Sai kata that we do.

I really enjoy both versions and have been doing the kata since 1986. A good kata is like a good friend. The more you spend time with it the more you get out of it.

Regards,

Tim Jurgens