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meat
15th April 2003, 13:31
Hi guys, I'm in my 2nd year of Japanese at university, and at the moment I feel like I'm just going nowhere. I'm picking up grammar alot more easily now, but as for vocab and kanji, it seems like the more I learn the more stuff I already know gets pushed out. Did anyone else go through this? Any advice/tips?

Meik Skoss
15th April 2003, 22:25
Use the language every day. Not just in class. For real. I've never studied the language formally, but it only took me eight months to pick up enough to understand/converse with people and, since then, I've learned a little bit every day. Even now, back in here in the U.S., it's possible to continue learning bit by bit.

The problem is, of course, it's all too easy not to use Japanese in one's own country. And it's hard to lose the accent (Ockers have a particularly strange one, when it comes to Japanese, let alone in English!) unless or until you use the language in real-time. The best way, natch, is via training and apres-geiko suds 'n spuds. If you can't do that, well, get yourself one of those ikiteiru jibiki, but be careful not to pick up the wrong locutions (I met a guy who did that once and it was waaaaay strange!).

Hope this helps.

Don Cunningham
15th April 2003, 22:50
I agree that constant use is the best way to hone your language skills. I picked up my limited Japanese language skills on the fly while living and working there. I don't recommend this, though, since it was often quite difficult and even led to many embarrassing situations. I tried the classroom route later, but I didn't personally like it much. I also found that what is taught in the classroom versus what is used in actual conversation can sometimes be quite different. This is especially true for those learning English as a second language, by the way.

I don't get much practice now, but I do try to participate in the local college's roundtable discussions. It's a chance for Japanese exchange students to learn conversational English while Japanese-language majors get to practice their Japanese skills in return. You might look around your campus for something like that or start your own. Another thing which helps is that I watch a lot of Japanese dramas on VideoCDs or VHS tapes. Some I buy and some are traded with friends still in Japan. It helps my comprehension abilities, but doesn't do much for my own speaking skills, though I occasionally learn a new or interesting colloquial phrase.

As far as your concern about forgetting as much as you learn, this is a common anxiety when studying most any complex subjects. You might be surprised to find how much you have actually retained, though. I wouldn't worry too much about that. It's still there when you need it.

Earl Hartman
16th April 2003, 00:57
What Meik says. Speak, speak, speak.

You'll make mistakes and get laughed at a lot, but that's how it goes.

The best way, of course, is to move there and try to avoid contact with people who speak English (total immersion method). When I first went to Kanazawa (a provincial capital about the size of San Francisco) I didn't know anyone who spoke English, and so I was forced to learn, making doozies along the way that had 'em rolling in the aisles.

If you can't do that, maximum exposure to Japanese media (TV, movies, anime) and snagging Japanese friends to exchange language lessons with is the only other route.

The key, in any case, is to find a way to use what you know as much as possible and grow a really thick skin.

Daniel Lee
16th April 2003, 02:28
Thought I'd chime too in with some ideas on comprehension/vocab:

When I started studying Japanese, the only mass media that we had access to were two month old newspapers the local Japanese embassy had kindly donated to our university. We'd read and re-read those papers and magazines people would bring from Japan whenever available. I also got into as many Japanese martial arts books as possible, trying to decypher the lingo with a dictionary. Getting into a topic you like, and want to know more of, is a great way to build your comprehension and kanji/vocab.

After I graduated from my bachelor course, the internet hit in a big way. I think it's an excellent tool for polishing your language. For example, you can access Japanese (including martial arts) sites, as well as, if you're so inclined, you can read the news in Japanese on a site like www.yahoo.co.jp, then re-read it and check your vocab in similar/identical stories at www.yahoo.com/www.yahoo.com.au.

Get into it!

Daniel Lee
16th April 2003, 02:59
Originally posted by Meik Skoss
And it's hard to lose the accent (Ockers have a particularly strange one, when it comes to Japanese, let alone in English!)

You Yanks are just jealous of our excellent linguistic skills - remember, a nation where 1 in 10 of the population studies Japanese can't be wrong! :D

Koujin-teki ni iwaseitei itadakeireiba, souna koutou noi tou omoouimasu kedou! Hatsuoon nou doukou ga hen da tou omouwaremasu deshou ka?! :p

Cody
16th April 2003, 03:16
Whoa, slow down on the romaji! :D

Great advices. I had never been to Japan, and while I had some limited classroom experiences... I learnt majority of my Japanese from watching anime and reading comics.

I totally suggest downloading anime with subtitle. Keep watching the same show over and over again until you can remember the plots and what is being said. You will be surprised how many expressions you can remember! (Make sure you pick a show that you like though...)

Comics are also nice, cos usually they also give you the pronounciations besides the kanji, so it's not as overwhelming.

Once you have picked up enough slangs type expressions, some contemporary novels are also great. Akagawa Jirou has a serious of books called "mikke neko ho-muzu". It's a huge serious, and the main characters stay same. So after plowing through the first couple of books and become familiar with the characters, you will find it very easy to catch on with the story line. Akagawa sensei likes to use a lot of dialogues. If you can follow animes, you can follow his novels.

Good luck to your studies! I always get amazed by "gaijin" 's dedications! I already know Chinese, so learning Japanses is no big thing. But to tackle Japanese and Chinese at the same time... you have my applaudis!


Oh, a question for you veterans out there: is there any similar budo resources that's Japanese language based? Thanx!

-Cody

Meik Skoss
16th April 2003, 03:51
Dan, enough with the stupid u at the end of a long o already. You aren't you one of those Jordan clones, are you? If so, I've friends who can slap some sense into you quickly (Chad? Tony? Alex?). It just looks stupid, not to mention being unnecessary, to use that sort of stuff. (In my UNhumble opinion...)

Cody: "I totally suggest downloading anime with subtitle"? "cos?" What is that supposed to mean?! Dude, at least get stuff like the spelling or subject-verb agreement thing down, huh? I mean, like, you sound like a frickin' doofus with the Kidspeak. Or are you that young, dumb and full o' ...? (I leave it to you to fill in the blanks.)

This hearkens back to something I wrote on another thread. Like, fergawdsake, people, at least get a sense of English grammar or (and?) spelling before you post, huh? (Yeah, yeah, I'm getting old and cranky, but I mean, really...)

Cody
16th April 2003, 03:58
Sorry Meik, I've only spoke English for 6 years, although I am 22 year old.

I still don't understand what's wrong with the sentance. Maybe you can help me out?

-Cody

Daniel Lee
16th April 2003, 07:09
Meik, just having a laugh at my own plethora of mistakes with Japanese pronunciation to date, but thanks for the reality check. :)

Joseph Svinth
17th April 2003, 02:58
You have to be careful, though. For example, I've known several fellows who learned their English from Canadian and American GIs following WWII. You know exactly what they mean, but as with Marine DIs, it never occurs to them that f*** might not represent the universal word.

meat
17th April 2003, 08:22
Many thanks to everyone for the advice :)
:smilejapa

P Goldsbury
17th April 2003, 14:54
Originally posted by meat
Hi guys, I'm in my 2nd year of Japanese at university, and at the moment I feel like I'm just going nowhere. I'm picking up grammar alot more easily now, but as for vocab and kanji, it seems like the more I learn the more stuff I already know gets pushed out. Did anyone else go through this? Any advice/tips?

Is there no 'year-abroad' scheme at your university? We have about 900 overseas students here, some of whom are Japanese majors at home and spend a year fleshing out, or correcting, what they have learned in their courses. To be immersed in a culture like a university is a great way of learning the language at all levels, from stuffy, formal meetings, to participation in student clubs, to using the local 'ben' at the okonomiyaki shop. Hiroshima University has agreements with some 100 overseas universities and it is easier for students from these colleges to come here. Have you thought about this? If you are majoring in Japanese, I find it hard to believe that your university does not have tie-ups with some colleges in Japan.

As for actually learning the language, my major is Greek and Latin classics, and I spent years (decades, in fact) learning Latin and Greek grammar and composition and I can still recite stretches of Homer and Vergil I learned at school. I learned the kanji in much tha same way, by rote, much like Japanese children learn them. I myself have strong reservations about the methods espoused by James Heisig in his books. However, a friend of mine used Heisig's methods and learned pretty the entire joyo-kanji, but he forgot everything after he returned home--which was a pity, since he intended to work as a translator and consultant.

Best regards,

meat
18th April 2003, 05:34
I'd absolutely love to go to Japan as part of an exchange student, but the problem is that there are only a few spots within our uni to go and it is VERY competitive. Most of the students in my class have previous experience in Japanese(I don't), and then theres the students doing higher levels, so my chances of getting in are pretty much zip. I've taken some peoples advice from here and put it into practice, as well as a few ideas of my own, so here's hoping.

Jody Holeton
18th April 2003, 07:35
Go to JCMU!

The Japan Center for Michigan Universities!

Intensive Japanese, it's right outside of Kyoto, sign up for a year and you wont regret it!

You can get scholarships and finacial aid, it is worth it and don't forget you can work on the side.

BE FOREWARNED!!!!
Japan is not for the weak or the poor!

There are other places in Kyoto, Tokyo etc. BUT JCMU has a nice setup!

Cody
22nd April 2003, 10:11
here is an article to read :D

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~thoureau/japanese.html

Meik Skoss
22nd April 2003, 13:56
GREAT article! And absolutely spot on! This guy nailed it; I haven't laughed so much in weeks. I think serious budo websites should have a link to it, it's that good.

Jody Holeton
22nd April 2003, 13:57
Cody....

That article has some truth to it.

If I were young again I would put my hard earned money into CHINESE lessons.


China's population is HUGE!
America's and Europe's corps are going there in droves!

Japan's economy is in tatters and might not recover, especially with China sucking up the business and being more gaijin friendly.

Japanese has also a...
too complicated reading system (which may take you YEARS to learn)
a rigid caste system which being a foeigner EXLUDES you from a variety of things...
a foreigner complex which pushes outside things (like baseball and fashions) but is killing off Japanese traditional goods.

I say that while you are young DO an intensive year in BOTH countries. LEARN CHINESE AND JAPANESE and get your BA and have a company pay for the rest!

Find what you like and go for it!
Do it while you are young and something is left!
Hurry! Its disapearing in Japan!

Cody
22nd April 2003, 15:05
Hello Jody,

I am sure there is some truth to it. From my very limited knowledge in Japanese, I think it's no more than a minor stretch of the truth with a liberal pinch of "creative translations" thrown into it.
Chinese is actually my mother tongue, I can read fairly well, but I speak more Cantonese than Mandarin. I just hope I can learn enough English and maybe some Japanese to put them in my resume in job hunt. I don?t know if it really matters though, I want to work in Law Enforcement, so I can?t think of many positions that require multiple languages...

Meik,
Actually, I am considering suing the author, I laughed so hard my back is still hurting!

Earl Hartman
22nd April 2003, 20:35
An article which could only have been written by someone who really KNOWS. Very, very funny and very, very perceptive.

That being said, I would like to say that I think Japanese is a wonderful, subtle, expressive language, and kanji are wonderful, mysterious, glorious things, packed chock-full of layers and layers of meaning. Whoever invented them was a genius. I cannot imagine Japan or Japanese culture without kanji. They are hard to learn, yes. The Japanese use them in, uh, shall we say, creative ways (at least according to the Chinese people with whom I have spoken, who find the Japanese way of using kanji to be very amusing, to put it kindly). They convey meaning in an immediate and direct way that is not possible with letters. However, you can break your brain learning them; the on-yomi, kun-yomi thing is maddening; etc., etc. However, if you study hard enough for them to give up their secrets to you, you will be well rewarded indeed. The more I know about kanji the more I like them. Also, the unique (and, yes, downright peculiar and befuddling) combination of kanji, hiragana and katakana give Japanese a chameleon-like flexibility that allows it to shape-shift in very creative ways. Practical? No. Interesting? You bet.

Also, it is possible to make your livng with Japanese if you put your mind to it. I have made my living as a technical writer/translator-interpreter for almost 25 years and put two kids through college with it. All of the electrical engineers, field service guys, and managers in my high-tech company have been laid off. Of my department, I am the only one left.

Why? Because I work for a Japanese company and I speak Japanese, so I can work with people in their own language.

However, as far as the future is concerned, learning Chinese is probably a better choice.

However, if you are REALLY interested in budo in a serious way, you MUST learn the language if you plan to study in Japan. All of this "you don't need words to convey the essence of the art, you can learn directly mind-to-mind" nonsense is just that: nonsense, complete and utter booshwah. If you can't talk to your teacher, how can you expect to really learn anything?