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Charlie Kondek
15th April 2003, 15:53
Hi, guys. I have a quick question - if this has already been discussed elsewhere, can you point me toward some search terms to find the thread?

My question is this: I come from a kickboxing background, and I notice some styles (many styles?) of karate keep the hands lower than a boxer would, who always keeps his hands up.

Why is this? Is it to generate power into the blocks? Am I even correct in saying karate practitioners fight this way?

Thanks in advance!

Sochin
15th April 2003, 20:26
I notice some styles (many styles?) of karate keep the hands lower than a boxer would, who always keeps his hands up.

Why is this?
Thanks in advance!
Charlie Kondek

I do that when I think I will have to deal with a lead off kick and I want to come under it to catch it, or whatever.

Boxers don't worry about kicks. Kick boxers aren't (generally) allowed to catch a kick.

hector gomez
15th April 2003, 20:40
Cause sensei say's so?


Hector Gomez

Rob Alvelais
15th April 2003, 21:18
Most things, of this sort are optimized for the arena that they're utilized. Sometimes the high guard of a boxer can be used against him, when outside of that arena. Kickboxing and boxing utilize gloves that make grabbing virtually impossible. In Karate, the grabbing of one of the hands of the guard and utilizing it to turn the opponent so that it's hard to puch with the free hand, is a possiblity that largely doesn't exist in boxing, say. So, the hands have to change their position, so to minimize that threat. As with most things, it's a trade-off with risks and benefits, however that's why *I*, at least have my hands lower than one finds in boxing, typically.

It's interesting to note, that in the days of bareknuckle fighting, the guard was of comparable height to that seen in karate.

Rob

CEB
15th April 2003, 21:24
I keep my hands up. If I have to block kicks I use my legs. I was recently told by a dojo mate that as I continue to age and my bone mass deteriorates I should rethink my methods. I really don't my computer to get knocked offline. I protect the head. If I lose consciousness its game over. I'll eat a body shot especially if it puts me in close. But that is me. Your mileage may vary.

hector gomez
15th April 2003, 21:30
Yes,but even the evolutiion of bareknuckle fighting today has evolved case in point...I doubt you will find any fighter's in brazils world vale tudo events with their hands by their waist,ofcourse unless it is for showboating or inorder to reel or draw a fighter in.

Hector Gomez

CEB
15th April 2003, 21:31
Against a high front kick bring the elbow straight downward on top the kicking guy's foot or shin. That is fun.

hector gomez
15th April 2003, 21:34
Good one ED

Hector Gomez

Rob Alvelais
15th April 2003, 21:42
Hi Hector,

I believe we're in agreement. These sorts of things, as you illustrate with the vale tudo, evolve to be optimal for the arena in which they will be employed. As the rules changed from those of Jack Dempsy's early career more modern times, all sorts of strategies, tactics and hand positions evlolved to exploit the "rules" in effect for that arena. I think the key is to understand why it is that you're doing whatever it is that you're doing, as well as the competitive environment that you're in and adapt.

Rob



Originally posted by hector gomez
Yes,but even the evolutiion of bareknuckle fighting today has evolved case in point...I doubt you will find any fighter's in brazils world vale tudo events with their hands by their waist,ofcourse unless it is for showboating or inorder to reel or draw a fighter in.

Hector Gomez

Machimura
16th April 2003, 02:05
Try and protect the entire side of your face, head and neck by using a boxing guard without gloves. Think about it. Parries and dodges are better for the street, and defenses against tackles and kicks (as mentioned) are a part of the reasoning behind many MAs "on-guard" postures. Using your fist close to your jaw is just stupid in the street, You're asking for secondary impact or broken digits with contact. REMEMBER THER IS NO PADDING AVAILABLE IN REAL LIFE. YOU CAN'R SAY WAIT LET ME WRAP MY HANDS. BONE-ON-BONE RULES IN THIS SITUATION.

Also, what karate out of the hundreds of styles are you taliking about? There is no generic karate fighting stance. So no gloves and wraps=different strategy. More than punches above the belt=different approach. Make sense? Have a great one!

Bryan Cyr

Goju Man
16th April 2003, 03:38
Think about it. Parries and dodges are better for the street, and defenses against tackles and kicks (as mentioned) are a part of the reasoning behind many MAs "on-guard" postures.
Bryan, you should know that if anyone in the fighting world prefers parrying and dodging, it's the boxers and kickboxers. There is no age uke or yoko uke or anyother uke. It's the karate ka who "blocks".

Using your fist close to your jaw is just stupid in the street, You're asking for secondary impact or broken digits with contact. REMEMBER THER IS NO PADDING AVAILABLE IN REAL LIFE. YOU CAN'R SAY WAIT LET ME WRAP MY HANDS. BONE-ON-BONE RULES IN THIS SITUATION.
Bryan, I am amazed by these comments coming from someone who has said to have boxed. If you use that technique, with or without gloves, you're going to be in trouble. Dennis Alexio knocked a fighter out many years ago with his own hand blocking. In boxing and kickboxing, it is not the hand that does the protecting, it is more the forearm and outside bicep together, like the motion performed in Sanseru kata. You will notice the when in that "gaurd" their gloves are usually above their temples.

CEB
16th April 2003, 04:27
Originally posted by Machimura
...Parries and dodges are better for the street, and defenses against tackles and kicks (as mentioned) are a part of the reasoning behind many MAs "on-guard" postures. ...

Bryan Cyr

This reminds me of a story. In town we have a man named Randy. He is a good boxer and a local coach. He works a lot with area kids and is a good friend of our dojo. He stops by and says hi from time to time. He has not had time to really take up another art but has been curious about we do and we would share an exchange of ideas from time to time. Once he asked us what we thought would be the best way to handle a boxer. One of our black belts thought closing and wrapping the arms and either going in for a tackle, takedown or using knee strikes would be good, after all you have disabled the boxers weapons, his fist. Well it seems that isn't necessarily the best strategy. Randy demonstrated to the suggestor of that idea how boxers spend much time practicing how to fight out of clinches. All Randy did was back peddle away from the would be grabber and pepper him with a lot of punches.

This isn't an argumentitive post with anything Bryan posted. His post just reminded of this story of how something that seemed plausible on the surface turned out not to be such a good idea in practice. What Randy did have trouble with was kicks to the shins. It seems boxers don't bang shins too often. hehe

Charlie Kondek
16th April 2003, 14:14
Thanks for the responses. The answers make sense! Of course, I didn't think there was one set karate stance, so was asking for generalizations.

Last night I got to dialogue with a friend on the subject. He's san-dan in Tang Soo Do, so not the same thing as what we're talking about here exactly, but he showed me his stance (right side lead, L-stance, right fist at shoulder height, left fist over middle, sort of like the bare-knuckle stance Rob mentioned) and suggested the reason hands drop is to chamber blows.

Now that's bringing up two different things, isn't it? The guard, and the chambering of blows.

I wish I could be more specific, but to pick one style would be misleading. I'm thinking of the old strong-side iron horse stance I was taught many moons ago, for example. Left leg lead, left fist horizontally over heart, right fist at hip. Always seemed weird to me when I morphed into a 'merican kickboxer, but I believe there's method to it!

Bustillo, A.
16th April 2003, 14:42
Ed,
Your suggestion to block ...excellent.

Nowadays, perhaps one of the main reason some schools don't practise with their hands up to protect the head--the control and decision making center of the body-- is due to the fact that most schools don't practise some form of full-contact. For the most part, schools teaching the hands by your side method train pulling their punches and kicks to the head.

However, the karate styles practising full-contact do train keeping their hands up tp protect the head; among others, Kyokushin, Seidokan, Shidokan, Ashihara and Enshin.
Futhermore , the excuse of grabbing kicks or to throw is not the best arguement to keep the hands low. The aforementioned styles train and emphasize on snatching kicks to sweep their opponent.

Goju-Ryu
16th April 2003, 15:46
I practice Goju-Ryu and I've always been told to put my hands up in order to protect the head, and to put my elbows in to protect the ribs, especially when you're fighting real close... where everything happens very fast ;)

If the distance between the fighters gets bigger, then you can let your arms come down a little so you can kick more efficiently and evade more easily...

17th April 2003, 00:11
How about- casue for so many years karate sport competition keeps fighters apart when they close the long-range gap to the in-fighting gap, then the center ref says "stop"!!! And they are separated to start all over again.

Not many karate fighters have had to over the years worry about elbows, body shots, uppercuts and the like. Thank God attitudes are changing nowadays and you see much more realistic exercises starting to show up in some dojos!

Goju Man
17th April 2003, 02:40
Most things, of this sort are optimized for the arena that they're utilized. Sometimes the high guard of a boxer can be used against him, when outside of that arena. Kickboxing and boxing utilize gloves that make grabbing virtually impossible. In Karate, the grabbing of one of the hands of the guard and utilizing it to turn the opponent so that it's hard to puch with the free hand, is a possiblity that largely doesn't exist in boxing,

I must disagree Rob. Anyone who thinks you can't grab in kickboxing should watch a few muay thai matches. They not only grab, but sweep while grabbing the kicking leg, not to mention grabbing the opponents head and kneeing him, sometimes ending in a knockout. I think watching events like K-1 and muay thai will show a lot.


How about- casue for so many years karate sport competition keeps fighters apart when they close the long-range gap to the in-fighting gap, then the center ref says "stop"!!! And they are separated to start all over again.

Nothing is changing Angel, at least not significantly in Karate. Tournaments are still being run that way today with the exeption of full contact tourneys like kyokushin, sabaki, etc. You'd be surprised how many big time tournament guys do nothing but kata. They are not even reaping the few benefits from tournament fighting.


Not many karate fighters have had to over the years worry
about elbows, body shots, uppercuts and the like. Thank God attitudes are changing nowadays and you see much more realistic exercises starting to show up in some dojos!

I don't know which ones. You'd never know it by some of the posts you read on here. ;)

Gene Williams
17th April 2003, 02:49
Hi Manny, I agree. In the few significant fights I've had in my life, after the first punch or two, everything was close in or on the ground. That's why I never really got into tournament sparring after the first few years, Hell, I beat people on points that I knew would kill me in the street, and people beat me who couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack. Gene

Goju Man
17th April 2003, 03:05
I agree.

Goju Man
17th April 2003, 03:17
You know, a big problem in these types of discussions is that you have individuals making an authoritative statement about an art without having trained enough to really know. Hector has made the statement to which I agree, if you want to have a clear idea of what an art is about, you have to be willing to train extensively, at least a year with a qualified instructor. To do that, one needs to have his or her ego in check, for it is not easy to strap on a white belt and start at the begining. Many people are into the rank and staus of the martial arts. I have known people come from arts that were not traditional, to where they achieved high rank, then got into a traditional organization and start bad mouthing where they came from. Funny thing though, I don't see them giving back the rank. It's very easy to talk about muay thai, boxing, bjj or whatever sitting in your living room couch than it is to go do it.;)

Gene Williams
17th April 2003, 03:41
Where I grew up, we say people like that, "have got above their raising.":D Gene

Goju Man
17th April 2003, 12:35
:D

Rob Alvelais
17th April 2003, 15:40
Hi Manny


Originally posted by Goju Man

I must disagree Rob. Anyone who thinks you can't grab in kickboxing should watch a few muay thai matches. They not only grab, but sweep while grabbing the kicking leg, not to mention grabbing the opponents head and kneeing him, sometimes ending in a knockout. I think watching events like K-1 and muay thai will show a lot.


I've seen some pictures of the K-1 bouts, and it looks like they wear different hand gear than the Kickboxing that I was thinking of.
I seem to recall that Thai Boxers and Kickboxers wore the standard boxing glove. From the ISKA rulebook:
RULE 13: CUES
Gloves shall be WPKA approved, and shall be leather and of the regular boxing type. No karate type hand gear or any hand gear that does not fully cover the hand shall be allowed. The glove weight shall be 10 ounces, except for the Super Cruiserweight division and above which require a 12 ounce glove. Gloves shall have a wide contact surface.

You can grasp with those gloves? I don't mean cupping the head, as one sees thai boxers do when kneeing, say, but grasp an arm and tug it? I wouldn't have thought that you could, but I'll defer to someone with more experience with those gloves.

No matter, reading further in the ISKA rulebook, I find Rule 34: Fouls Grabbing or holding onto any part of the opponent’s body (leg, foot, head, arm, etc.) with one hand or arm and hitting or kicking with the other hand, elbow or leg.
So you can't grab anyway.

The main point in my previous post was that tactics and srategies, to include where and how you hold your hands, evolve to exploit the rules situation in the particular venue in which you're participating. I don't think that's disputable.

Rob

Goju Man
18th April 2003, 01:48
Hi Rob, I think the rules definiteley always play a part in what ever sport you practise. It is true that ISKA has those rules, but, for example, the fights we had here last week were sanctioned by ISKA. There are three divisions in ISKA: full contact, freestyle and oriental rules. In the oriental rules, there is grabbing allowed for up to five seconds, and knees to the body are allowed. Kicks to both the inside and outside part of the legs, where as in freestyle, only the outside is allowed. But back to hand positioning, apart from the gloved sports, full contact fighters such as sabaki or kyokushin keep their hands up as well. If you see either pride or ufc fighters, they also keep their hands up, and they are in the position to have to defend takedowns.

Pirahna
22nd April 2003, 05:09
The rules of Muay Thai have changed since the 1920's to incorporate gloves and you will find that many western practioners are used to utlising this equipment however there are still events held yearly which incorporate only the use of wraps (ie no gloves) with no limit to blows struck nor is any target off limits. If you wish to see any of these several sites in the UK offer videos of Thailand vs Burma and are extremely exciting. As an example of the broad spectrum of techniques in last years event there was a broken arm from a counter-to-a knee throw, numerous elbow knockouts, climbing the vine (stepping on the lead thigh and launching a leaping knee to the side/back of the head)used for a disabling blow and of course a hell of a lot of kicks and punches. Two referees are used in the middle of the ring to control the action with at times it being confusing if the ref is involved in the fight such is the pace. Visit Suryothai.com for more info.


I would have to agree as a former goju practioner and now Thai fighter for the last seventeen years - hands up at all times. When they are not your face is exposed and what part of the body is guarded by your elbows - thin air?



Paul Smith

Goju Man
22nd April 2003, 17:25
Even in the dojo, we were stressed about hands up, and you can always hear me barking "keep your hands up".

RobertW
23rd April 2003, 17:14
I tend to use a hands up approach to Jissen Kumite, but when faced with regular in class Sundome Kumite, I tend to follow the approach that it is good to protect the whole upper body, and we use our legs to block low kicks. This invariably leads to the high hands approach. For orthodox, left hand out slightly, and of course, elbows in...

diogene
30th April 2003, 18:35
Bonjour,

Is it also a question of hikite ?

Shitoryu Dude
30th April 2003, 19:22
I've spent some small amount of time sparring with people who have had extensive boxing training. The one thing I came away with is that if you keep them at kicking distance you can beat them. The last thing you want is let one of those guys close with you so he can start nailing your guts with jabs.

Boxers do keep their guard way up - making it easy to launch kicks into their midsection between their elbows. Nor do most of them seem to ever expect sweeps, groin kicks, elbows, backfists, arm captures, tripping, throws, or having someone follow up on an attack after knocking them on their ass. With your guard high and a pair of big gloves you can block one hell of a lot of punches to the face and body - the fighting style evolved to suit the rules and equipment used. Boxing is a sport, and while usefull against those with no better or more comprehensive training, in my opinion it typically doesn't hold up against comparable karate training.

:beer:

RobertW
30th April 2003, 20:18
One point, though, in all Ryukyu's full contact and Kyokushin, the hands are up and the elbow and forearms are used to deflect or trap. This is a good marriage of the two. In any full contact art one learns quick about protecting the face. I have seen lots of boxers do away with karateka quickly. Although, it is correct that these also were vulnerable to Mae and Soto/Yoko geri. A quick spinning back kick will work on a boxer sometimes as well. The full contact Karate practitioner, however will usually deflect these techniques with a quick relaxed parry. Ideally of course. We all get hit.... sometimes.

-Robert Washington:p

Shitoryu Dude
30th April 2003, 20:29
Hmnmm, makes me wonder about how much devotion do boxers put into their sport and practice. Boxers are typically all or nothing types, while martial artists come in a great number of flavors on the subject. I've totally lost track of the number of 6-month karateka I've seen, or the brown belts who have never done kumite - ever. As we all know, a half-assed MA "expert" is likely to get his butt handed to him in pretty short order against nearly anybody. I imagine a boxer who spends several hours a week in ring is going to have an even easier time of it as getting hit and closing will be taken as a matter of course.

:beer:

RobertW
30th April 2003, 22:23
Well that's it I figure. If you get hit ALL the time then a medium or weak shot is a joke. Although it is kind of like one of my full contact teachers says "No heet een face - No good. Brain een head become stoopeed! Boxa somtime become slow een head. No good. Very bad."

-Robert Washington:p

Goju Man
1st May 2003, 03:36
Boxers do keep their guard way up - making it easy to launch kicks into their midsection between their elbows. Nor do most of them seem to ever expect sweeps, groin kicks, elbows, backfists, arm captures, tripping, throws, or having someone follow up on an attack after knocking them on their ass
That may be true, but only because they don't train against ANY kicks of any kind. Give him a couple of months with a good trainer and that will change very fast.;)