Daito-ryu Saigo-ha Shodokai / Shukikan (Sogawa Kazuoki)

[Justin Campbell]

Does anyone have information on the Shodokai group? I have seen their Intro tape (shows a variety of their techniques) and was wondering what their lineage is.
Thanks.

[Nathan Scott]

For those not familiar with the "Saigo-ha" or the "Shodokai", they are a group who claim that they transmit an alternate line of Daito ryu, as taught by Saigo Tanomo. Interestingly, the "Takeda-ha/ Takeda ryu Aikijujutsu" group also claims earlier transmission ties to these Takeda/aizu methods (as transmitted previous to Saigo Tanomo), but that is for another discussion.

Saigo Tanomo was an elder of the Aizu-han, and is said to have passed the Aizu "secret" methods to Takeda Sokaku.

Saigo Tanomo had a son named Saigo Shiro, who became famous for popularizing judo (see the movie "Sanshiro Sugata"). It is claimed by some that Shiro used Daito ryu techniques - "yama arashi" in particular - when engaged in judo/jujutsu bouts to bring fame to the then new art of judo. These daito ryu techniques supposedly were taught to him by his father Tanomo.

The problem is that there are no records extant of Tanomo having taught anyone (that we know of at least). Judging from the interviews in Mr. Pranin's DR book, Daito ryu oral tradition apparently maintains that Sokaku learned the aizu methods from Tanamo, and John Stevens states in his book "Invincible Warrior" (pg. 18-19):


Tanomo was also the only remaining elder of the aizu clan capable of imparting the secret oshiki-uchi techniques.

(snip)

Some researchers believe that the oshiki-uchi techniques mostly emphasized samurai etiquette (the literal meaning of oshiki-uchi is "within the lord's castle") and that Tanomo was not a martial artist at all. However, Sokaku kept a number of impressive scrolls (which he could not read) cataloguing martial arts techniques in great detail and tracing the lineage of the oshiki-uchi system back to the emperor Minamoto (Genji) Yoshimitsu who lived in the twelfth century - Sokaku himself was listed as the thirty-fifth grand master of the tradition - and it is likely that these elaborate documents came from Tanomo. At any rate, Sokaku began teaching a system, which he called "Yamato" and then "Daito" ryu. The Daito ryu system was a combination of classical jujutsu and practical fighting techniques based on Sokaku's unsurpassed experience in hand-to-hand combat and his facility with deadly weapons.

<font size="2">While Mr. Steven's writing has been heavily criticized as being overly embellished, much of this quoted section does seem to concur with what is believed to be true regarding Daito ryu history. I seem to recall a section in this book about how Sokaku had carried a large bag full of these scrolls with him everywhere he traveled, but that he had apparently lost it at some point (can't find the reference right now).

Also worth noting is the idea that "Daito ryu" as a name may be relatively recent, and that perhaps Sokaku combined the aizu-han methods with the jujutsu etc. he had learned elsewhere, calling the system collectively "Daito ryu". I've seen this alluded to elsewhere as well.

If this is true, then anyone claiming to be teaching "Daito ryu" as passed down through Saigo Tanomo is being untruthful, since the term "Daito ryu" ("great east") may have in fact been coined by Sokaku, and not used by Tanomo at all.

But more importantly, the Saigo-ha is apparently not able to produce any conclusive evidence of such a lineage or connection. Even the techniques shown in the many books members of Saigo-ha have produced look suspiciously like (for the most part poorly executed) aikido tachi-waza and perhaps Takumakai ne-waza.

Kondo Katsuyuki Sensei stated in his interview to Stanley Pranin ("Daito ryu Aikijujutsu"; Aiki News):</font>


Pranin: Recently, articles featuring a group in Kyushu that calls itself Saigo-ha Daito-ryu aikibujutsu have been appearing in Japanese martial arts magazines. The most problematic point for me as a historian was a chart, printed in one of these articles, tracing a continuous Daito-ryu lineage within the Aizu clan from Tanomo Saigo, through Shiro Saigo, to a certain Yamashita Shihan and finally to the present Sogawa Shihan. Would you give us your opinion on this subject as the soke dairi of the main school of Daito-ryu?

Kondo Sensei: Properly speaking, there is no connection whatsoever between the Saigo-ha and Daito-ryu schools. They should not call themselves Daito-ryu because there is no relationship at all between Daito-ryu and the version of history they are offering.

http://www.daito-ryu.org/kako3.html

<font size="2">Those that may come across any of the numerous technical publications in Japanese about Daito ryu will invariably find that they are written by members of the Saigo-ha.

For your reading pleasure, following is a page hosted by John J. Williams called the "Official Saigo-ha Daito-ryu homepage" at:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4856/

This is also an interesting site regarding the Saigo-ha:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/2175/history.html

Any further comments or questions regarding the Saigo-ha welcome!

Regards,</font>

"Any further comments or questions regarding the Saigo-ha welcome!"

Regards,

__________________
Nathan Scott



Well........ I've seen Mr Williams and his Saigo-ha in action.

My recommendation is........... pass.......... quickly!

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Stanley Pranin of Aikido Journal (http://www.aikidojournal.com) wrote a commentary about this issue specifically. Please have a look:

-What is Saigo-ha Daito-ryu? (Daito ryu in Transition editorial) (http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000013.html)

Very enlightening.

Regards,

[JimmyCrow]

I purchased a Daito-Ryu Book today entitled Aiki No Hiketsu by Sogawa Kazuoki. I was wondering if any of you have ever heard of this book or know the lineage of Mr. Sogawa Kazuoki. I'm pretty sure his lineage is printed in the book but I can't read Japanese and the first few pages are not translated. What I would really like to know is if he is affiliated with the mainline Daito-Ryu (Kondo) or the group that claims to be the mainline group (I'm not sure who heads the other organization) or one of the other Daito-Ryu groups like Roppokai, or Sagawa-ha.

I looked through the book at some of the techniques and they look a lot like very hard Aikido. I have seen Daito-Ryu demonstrated before (mostly on video) and these techniques look somewhat like the techniques I have seen before. They look like they work well, but I don't know enough to say they do for sure.

I have attached a pic of the front cover of the book. Any information that any of you can add would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You in Advance :smilejapa

[Arman]

Mr. Crow,

I don't know very much about this group, and of the tiny amount I have read, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the info.

It seems that Kazuoki Sogawa is the head of an alleged Daito-ryu group called the Shodokai. I don't know who he claims to have studied with, or what licenses, etc. he claims to hold.

What I do know, however, is that he does not have an affiliation with the mainline DR school headed by Kondo Sensei. In fact, I do not believe that the "Shodokai" is even generally accepted as an authentic branch of DR (I had never heard of it, in truth, and came across it by accident).

Perhaps others may also be able to shed some light on this.

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

[Walt. V Kopitov]

Why are they wearing the obi on the outside of their hakama?

Walt

[Nathan Scott]

The group is called "Saigo-ha", and are a group that makes unsubstantiated claims to a line of Daito ryu originating from Saigo Shiro (son of Saigo Tanamo).

All the ligitimate Daito ryu groups do not acknowledge their claim to lineage, and the techniques they publisize in mass do not help their case. As mentioned, they appear to be aikido standing techniques with Takumakai-style leg locking ground controls.

Mr. Sogawa (not to be confused with "Sagawa") is the "headmaster" of this group, and he and his students have produced the vast majority of all "Daito ryu" books and videos on the market in any language. Mr. Sogawa is fond of creating pretty black and white illustrations of human/cosmic relationships that do not make much sense.

If you don't know what your buying, chances are it is Saigo-ha or some obscure little-known line of Daito ryu. You may pick up a few interesting tricks here and there, but I'd recommend saving your money for books/videos by those who are respected in the art.

Also, I'd recommend doing a forum search for a subject before posting. We have at least one thread open for discussing the Saigo-ha. In fact, I'll merge this thread with that one a bit later.


Why are they wearing the obi on the outside of their hakama?

Umm... I dunno. Maybe the ancient samurai wore colored judo belts outside their hakama?

Regards,

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Umm... I dunno. Maybe the ancient samurai wore colored judo belts outside their hakama?

Now that I think about it I believe that I've seen Hakko-ryu folks do that too (purple belts, if IIRC). No idea why, though...

Best,

Chris

[kenjgood]

Know nothing about the individual or book in question.

As far as the obi "issue":

Kuroda Tetsuzan and his students wear their obi's on the outside of thier hakama.

He and his students are no slouches....

For more on Kuroda Tetsuzan see: http://www.bugei.com/kuroda.html

I believe the reason they do, is to allow the saya maximum freedom of motion to maximize drawing options.

Hiya guys,

Ken posted:

"Kuroda Tetsuzan and his students wear their obi's on the outside of thier hakama."

Ken is correct but it should be noted that Kuroda's method and manner are completely different from Hakko ryu or these Daito ryu guys. I believe the Kaishin ryu practitioners actually wear two obi's. One under the hakama as is commonly done and another one (the name of which escapes me just now) is worn outside the hakama very loose. It's primary use is to stabilize a katana. This type of obi is frequently seen around the koshi of yoroi and was worn with yoroi when carrying a katana instead of a tachi.

Practitioners of Hakko ryu do wear a modern Judo style obi on the outside of their hakama. Interestingly some of them wind the obi inside the hakama on the back side to stabilize the koshita and hera. I'm not sure the reason for it being outside in the front other than a demonstration of rank, but this adoption is obviously more modern. Although in description they may sound similar, the method ascribed to Hakko ryu & Daito ryu is not really associated with that of the Kaishin ryu.

Toby Threadgill

[Nathan Scott]

Not to get too much further off topic, but the method of wearing the sword as demonstrated by Kuroda sensei is a unique exception to the rule, and as stated, is not the same as many people who wear their judo style kuro-obi over their hakama (done to make sure everyone knows their rank).

BTW, I was under the impression that Kuroda sensei wore his sword in that fashion for the Tamiya ryu iaijutsu art - does he use the same method for his Komagawa Kaishin ryu as well? Didn't think to ask him this.

Also, the obi I've seen worn with yoroi looks to me to be much longer and thicker than the soft obi worn by Kuroda sensei. The soft obi looked like the casual type worn by men when wearing casual kimono or yukata. Are you sure about this?

I don't know what Hakko ryu does, or for what reason. But I can say that I've never had any problem doing any of the traditional arts regardless of weapon while wearing a standard kaku-obi. Wearing a judo belt on the outside of your hakama is obviously a newer practice by some people.

Regards,

[kenjgood]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott

Wearing a judo belt on the outside of your hakama is obviously a newer practice by some people.


Agreed.

Toby & Nathan, as you know I am a babe in the woods on these issues.

One of Kuroda sensei's students sent me a soft, wide obi that his Grandfather gave him. Vey nice quality, color and style. I use it occasionally when practicing the Kata and Iai that he showed us.

My only small point was, just because group A or B doesn't wear the clothing like group C, can you conclude group C is out to lunch.

Although in this case, Group C looks like they are quite possible stuffing their face..

Nathan,

I was under the impression that Kuroda used the loose obi in both Tamiya ryu and Kaishin ryu. You could be right though, maybe he only uses the loose obi in iaijutsu. ( My knees were in so much pain during that weekend that it's affected my memory.)

Ken.....I didn't get no obi......I guess telling that one guy that he looked like a Japanese Harpo Marx nixed my chances huh? Ahhhhh the magic of sake!

Tobs

[kenjgood]

MORE SAKE!!!!

That was a great night...the boyz from Texas were in rare form.

I think the reason that I received an obi and not you is that Sato-san realized that I was limping more than you and the obi would double as a leg wrap in a pinch. As Kuroda liked to remind us: "Happy Pain" :laugh:

Seriously, I was blown away at his generosity. A great reflection on him and his teacher. Great group of guys.

[Nathan Scott]

Hi Ken - of course your right about jumping to conclusions to quickly. But in this case I was pretty confident of the history. I have seen a couple of cases where an additional "belt" (more like strap) was worn over the hakama. But it is not my impression that this was for functional reasons.

Most traditional ryu-ha followed similar rules of "sashikata", regarding the logic of placing the swords in the obi - though TSKSR seems to approach it differently than the norm.

I've been wondering how Kuroda sensei/Tamiya ryu exponents deal with quick body movements. The sword seems as though it could slip through the loose sash so easily, though obviously Kuroda s. was not having any problems with it.

I would think that the saya would be bouncing off your leg while walking normally, or especially running or wearing armor. I'd be surprised if the same method was used in KKR.

We'll have to look into this...

:)

[Richard Elias]

The soft wide (usually white) belt you are reffering to is called a shigoki and is, as I understand it, worn on the outside to be representative of how a sword would be worn with armour. It is not the same as those worn in Hakko ryu, and has nothing to do with rank. It is most often worn by practitioners of Kenbu.

Hey Rich,

Thanks! I went nuts looking for the name of that obi. "Shigoki" ...I need to write that down somewhere.

I'll see ya Saturday. Stay out of trouble......until I get there. :)

Tobs

[Nathan Scott]

Thanks, I'll have to look into it further.

[RobNyc]

So does this guy:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/1235/
or
Click Here (http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/1235/)

Is He real?

He says"There is much confusion about the names "DAITO-RYU" , "SAIGO - HA", "YAMATE-RYU". "OMOTE ", USHIIKIUCHI" , "SHINTO-RYU" , " GOTEN-JUTSU" or "TAKEDA-RYU" . but it is not really that complicated at all ! These are popular family or clan names going back several centuries used to describe a branch of this traditional martial art whose modern versions were derived through Tanomo Saigo and the various followers of that lineage. "

?

[James Williams]

Gentlemen,

The obi worn on the outside by Komagawa Kaishin practioners is for practice. In the old days the obi was worn in the traditional manner as was a short sword.

Regards,

James

[RobNyc]

Originally posted by James Williams
Gentlemen,

The obi worn on the outside by Komagawa Kaishin practioners is for practice. In the old days the obi was worn in the traditional manner as was a short sword.

Regards,

James

Yea.;)

[James Williams]

Gentlemen,

For those interested Kuroda sensei will be teaching a four day seminar at the Dojo of the Four Winds in San Diego the 18th through the 21st of July. This is a rare opportunity to work with an outstanding swordsman in an intensive workshop. More information is available at http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/kuroda_seminar.html

Regards,

James

PS The dojo is two blocks from the beach.

[RobNyc]

Thanks James! :D

Is this thread discussing if "Saigo-ha Daito-ryu" is real or not?

Because I just read a interview in the honbu dojo from 1992, that Saigo-ha and Daito-ryu in no way have any connections, that they are not suppose to call it Daito-ryu. Anyone can help me out>?

[Neil Yamamoto]

This has been discussed several times, check the aikijujutsu forum with a search going back to the begining. This was also discussed in the past in the bugei.com forums with much the same conclusion.

I don't recall anyone with much positive to say about the group, and I have nothing good to say either from the little I've seen.

[RobNyc]

Thanks:)

[Walker]

Plus there are at least three Saigo-ha groups and they’re not even talking about the same Saigo in all cases. :|

[Brently Keen]

Among my friends in Japan, including some who have trained with Sogawa, his Saigo-ha is definitely referred to as imitation Daito-ryu. Although some consider his jujutsu to be fairly good, it has a fairly strong aikido flavor as opposed to Daito-ryu.

John Williams' Canadian group is not really related to Sogawa's group at all, and has absolutely nothing to do with authentic Daito-ryu. The lineage is pure fiction as is half of the contents of his web site, the other half is mostly plagiarized from other sources.

Brently Keen

[Nathan Scott]

I agree with Brently's analysis.

Even if some of the methodology being taught at some of these schools is reasonable, do you really want to affiliate/train under a group that is dishonest and without integrity? How might this choice of values affect you someday?

Not to draw this thread too far off topic again, but it back to the shigoki obi - is anyone under the impression that it serves a practical function? Wearing one might keep the swords/koshibuki more firmly in place, but from what I've seen of them on NHK jidai geki, they seem to be mostly ornamental. Any thoughts?

Regards,

[Richard Elias]

When wearing the shigoki it should be used to wear the swords instead of puting them through the kaku obi under the hakama.

As stated before they are representative of how the swords were worn with armor. When wearing armor you do not wear a kaku obi, only the shigoki. Some schools that do techniques in armor do not always wear the armor in daily training and some not even when doing demonstrations, (because it can take away from/obscure the techniques being demonstrated) but they still may wear the shigoki so that they are wearing their weapons in the same manner.

[RobNyc]

Yea, Saigo-ha is fishy.

[Nathan Scott]

Interesting, thanks Rich.

The kind of obi I'm used to seeing with, gendai gusoku at least, is a thick cotton obi (sarashi perhaps) wrapped several times around the waist. This is wrapped in a different fashion that the shigoki sometimes seen worn without armor, and is much more substantial for actually wearing daisho/weapons. Here is a a picture of what I'm talking about (Obata Sensei):

<center>http://www.shinkendo.com/images/armour.jpg</center>

Here is some info that poped up on a net search (though shigoki may be a bit of a generic term for this type of soft obi):


This wedding set also comes with a "shigoki". The shigoki is a cloth (similar to an obi) worn around the waist. It's 11 feet and 8 inches long by 12 inches wide.

Photo from web page:

http://www.moto-ya.net/pics/317e.jpg

I couldn't find any photos on the net of a man wearing one, but here is a photo of Angier Sensei taken at a seminar in 2000 wearing a shigoki, for those that do not know what we're talking about (w/ Toby relaxing on his shoulder blades):

<center>http://www.pacificnet.net/~nscott/angier.jpg</center>

I reckon I could just ask Obata Sensei too, huh? I'll let you know if I remember to ask him and if he gives me an answer.

BTW, if you think about it, email me your phone number please. I've got someone that contacted me that I'd like to ask you about.

Regards,

[Richard Elias]

Yes they are worn differently without armor because, well, they don't have armor on. But my understanding is it's not that much different. But, I could always be wrong.

The shigoki also is used in a number of different activities, not always associated with martial arts. Some forms of festival and dance dress/costume as well as some forms of taiko also use them.

Incidentally, Don is not wearing a shigoki in that picture, those are just white straps on his hakama. The shigoki is usually worn very low on the hips.

As an aside, the word shigoki can also mean hard or severe training, with different characters of course.


Here’s a picture of some kenbu practitioners wearing shigoki. As you can see they wear them rather low, below the knot of the hakama.

[Nathan Scott]

Thanks for the correction and photo Richard. I hadn't looked very closely at Angier Sensei's hakama himo, and am not familiar with the wearing of shigoki in general.

Interesting concept.

[O'Neill]

Here are some sites in Japan from the Aikijujutsu shodokai. I wish that I read Japanese as i want to read some of the captions by their historical photos. Can anyone gather a date of birth for Sogawa?

http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~saigouha/
http:plaza18.mbn.or.jp/~daitouryu/
http:www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/_saigouha/

There are other sites devoted to this. On one there are supposed pictures from their history. They have some nice pics.

[O'Neill]

There is another Aikijujutsu Shodokai site. There is another one that is very extensive but i must find the url for it. By the way Del Cueto sensei of the Rengokai is very close to this group, they are friends.

[Nathan Scott]

Erin,

Your last two url's are messed up. You might try copying and pasting them to avoid making mistakes. Here is the second one - don't know what the third one was:

http://plaza18.mbn.or.jp/~daitouryu/

I looked at this page and related pages, and found that all of them were basically advertisements for their products. Links to products talked about what kind of information you would find in them.

Those curious about the Saigo-ha should have a look at this page:

http://plaza18.mbn.or.jp/~daitouryu/page/syuppan.htm

It shows all the stuff they publish. It is really amazing that this group still lands publishing deals, but I guess this is a reflection of their sales. Bad for Daito ryu, good for them.

BTW, Mr. Sogawa is famous for his interesting looking diagrams and renderings. I've translated some of them before in the past, and found that they are presented more as eye candy to sell the books than as a supplement to any high-reaching principles being discussed in the text. In other words, from what I've translated I've found that the pretty black and white renderings are not supported much by text explaining why they are there.

A clue to consumers - don't by books because of eye catching renderings and dynamic looking photos. Find out who the author is, and what makes them qualified to publish something on the given subject. Don't waste your money on Saigo-ha publications.

The best Saigo-ha page though, as everyone knows, is that of Dr. John J. Williams. Have a look at that one!

Also, we already have a thread for the Shodokai/Sogawa, as well as a Rengokai thread (no surprise that they are friendly). I'd like to merge this with that one if you don't mind.

Regards,

[MarieB]

i like the pictures :p

[Nathan Scott]

A friend of mine just lent me a 5 tape series produced by Sogawa Kazuoki called "Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu A to Z", published by BAB. I'm not sure what year they were produced, by they look kind of old. Each tape is about 30 minutes long.

My analysis of the techniques previously in this thread were based on the various books Sogawa has published, but until now, I had not seen him move before. I know this is no suprise, but he is DEFINITELY aikido trained - formally or informally - and in one of the post-war aikikai lines. The taisabaki and techniques are unmistakably aikikai aikido. On the upside, his level of ability at aikido is pretty average by aikido standards, complete with students taking falls for him just like in modern aikido. As such, training in Saiga-ha might not be a total loss, but it definitely is not Daito-ryu (IMO).

Regards,

[Tatsushinden]

Hi there,

Who has read this book http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=16496?

I've ordered it,and googled the name of Kazuoki Sogawa,whose lineage is unverified according to some people.

what is your opinion on the book,and is their representation of aiki-no-jutsu correct,or is it just some softer Daito-ryu shoden?

Thanks in advance,

[Flintstone]

I really care little about his lineage, but I enjoyed the book and learn a couple of things from it.

Call it Daito Ryu or call it Aikido, it was of good help for me (an Aikido guy).

[John Connolly]

Kazuoki Sogawa of Saigo Ha Daito Ryu demonstrates the aiki no jutsu level of Daito Ryu techniques in this volume. Heavily illustrated.

hmmm.

[knghtazrael]

Kazuoki Sogawa of Saigo Ha Daito Ryu demonstrates the aiki no jutsu level of Daito Ryu techniques in this volume. Heavily illustrated.

hmmm.
Did I miss something in your post? what was the hmmmm for? Not trying to be rude by anymeans I'm just genuinly curious as to what you might find wrong.


________________
Ray Bellville

[Ron Tisdale]

Do a search on Saigo ha Daito ryu...the posts you find will give you a very good clue.

Best,
Ron

[Tatsushinden]

Well,it's generally accepted that the man is a fraud,but the more fun it could be to see what understanding he has of a subject like aiki-no-jutsu;especially if he's self-taught or something..that's what i'm interested in,if he's compareble to Okamoto for example(however i doubt that)

[John Connolly]

Me? I have never experienced Okamoto's technique. I just wanted to flag the obvious Saigo Ryu name.

[knghtazrael]

Me? I have never experienced Okamoto's technique. I just wanted to flag the obvious Saigo Ryu name.

Is this a problem with what people now are calling Saigo Ha or all of it in general? As far as I could tell doing research online about aiki jujutsu I obviously know it links to the Takeda clan but came across a lot of places claiming that it was also known as Saigo-Ha, Takeda-Ryu and then Daito-Ryu. Some even claim it goes back to Emperor Senwa Tenno. If this is an incurect history could someone please point me to somewhere I can find better information. I take Aiki Budo classes and would like to learn more about the history.

________________
Ray Bellville

[John Connolly]

Ray,

If you do a quick search of e-budo for Saigo ha or Takeda ryu, you will find much to be disappointed about.

[Tatsushinden]

I received the book yesterday and i do find the title of the book misleading,since it contains no aiki no jutsu at all;it's foremost a jujutsu book.It does depict interesting locks and diagrams though,and contains some pressure-point stuff as well.

So it's a nice book if you like intricate and sometimes artfull locking an throwing,but not aikijutsu

[Mekugi]

There's another, bigger book out there as well called "Daito Ryu Hiden Daikan." It has pretty much everything you ever want to know (or didn't want to know) about Saigo ha Daito ryu.

[morpheus]

I have read a number of threads regarding the questioning of his lineage as well as a number of threads on the various products (books/videos) he has offered. I have seen comment on a few occasions that his waza looks like aikido. My question is has anyone ever experienced his waza? Or does anyone have any suggestion as to where his skills base and curriculum come from?

I don't think this is beating a dead horse but if it is I apologize.

Thanks
Jeff

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

I haven't felt his techniques, but I've seen his videos and books, and would say it is founded in or at least heavily influenced by Aikikai Aikido. Although I haven't felt his techniques, I can make a pretty educated guess what they would feel like based on what I've seen, and my guess is it feels like fairly average aikido. He has added ground locking techniques, and made various other changes and additions, but the taisabaki is distinctly aikido (which is almost nothing like what I've seen of Daito-ryu).

I'm going to merge this with the exising thread..

Regards,

[Nathan Scott]

Those interested in this subject, please see the following thread with my post from 08-27-07:

Saigo Shiro (aka: Shida Shiro) / "Yama arashi" (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=449856#post449856)

Regards,

[john_lord_b3]

I have one of the Sogawa sensei's Daito-ryu seminar video, and I think I saw Omiya Shiro (famed author of "Hidden Roots of Aikido") in it..

[morpheus]

Here is a clip I found on youtube of the group in questions. There are a couple of other clips posted by the same Youtube user.

Jeff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDnTFL5rZmg

[someguy]

I'll say this the guys Uki seems very good and he just keeps getting up and coming at the guy , I'm impressed with just that.

[kenkyusha]

Not so much with the connection based on that clip.


I'll say this the guys Uki seems very good
Floating or did you mean uke:(?

Be well,
Jigme

[Shudo]

Hello all,
I thinking of purcasing a set of DVD's titled "Head of Saigo Ha Daito Ryu Aikibujutsu, Kazuoki Sogawa covers all aspects of the Daito Ryu Saigo Ha Shukikan curriculum in this 5 part series". Purely for research purposes and to add to my collection. I was wondering if anyone has viewed these vids and what their opinion of them is? I was also hoping that someone could verify that they are coming from an authentic Daito Ryu source, or are authentic Daito Ryu techniques. I am aware that there appears to be some issues relating to the lineage of this school, however this does not concern me as lineage seems to be an issue in many schools, not least my own. Many thanks in advance.
Sean Halpin

[DDATFUS]

Here's a link to a previous e-budo thread discussing that group:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1856

The consensus opinion seems to be

1) no one can vouch for their history
2) their techniques look a little bit off (I think in one post Nathan Scott describes it as looking like standard Aikido with a few of the Takumakai's leg lock techniques grafted on).

I was thinking about buying some of their stuff just to round out my collection, but a senpai whose opinion I trust advised me to save my money.

[Shudo]

Thanks for the information, I think I will pass on the DVD's. Sorry for ressurecting this.
Sean Halpin

[Grant Periott]

This one crops up from time to time - don't feel bad about asking about it, at least you know how controversial this group is now.

[Shudo]

I have managed to view some of the material from this series, without purchase and I have to agree, that there is nothing there that I could not find in many Aikido Dojos and Aikido media. Does anyone have any recommendations on quality Daito Ryu media?
Sean Halpin

[Grant Periott]

I have managed to view some of the material from this series, without purchase and I have to agree, that there is nothing there that I could not find in many Aikido Dojos and Aikido media. Does anyone have any recommendations on quality Daito Ryu media?
Sean Halpin
I think that Kondo Sensei's series on Mainline Daito-ryu Ikkajo series would be of value to you.
http://movies.become.com/daito-ryu-aikijujutsu-dvd-by-katsuyuki-kondo--compare-prices--sc596093772

Depends what you want - there are some good demonstration videos of all Daito-ryu styles that give you a bit of an taste of each. But for instructional video, Kondo sensei's series is the definitive. I practice Takumakai Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu and this group does not release video footage as a general rule. It may be that there are other groups that similar in this respect.

[Shudo]

Thanks very much Grant, this looks very interesting, I have managed to Look at some of Kondo Sensei's videos on youtube and it looks more like what I had envisaged.
Sean Halpin

[newtmonkey]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread!

I have studied with this group (once with the founder, who came to visit our class one weekend). I had to drop the class due to my work schedule, but enjoyed it a lot.

I actually have the Daitoryuaikijujutsu AtoZ series on DVD, as well as all the books he's put out (including the massive hardcover which was mentioned earlier in the thread, with the dragon on the cover). I prefer the DVDs to others I have seen, and having watched them and having trained with this group for about a year and a half, I would be willing to wager that no one is throwing themselves for him in the videos.

I found it to be a very practical style and compare to other styles I have trained in while living in Japan (Hakkoryu, Roppokai), we trained with a lot more aliveness.

Having said all that, the lineage is suspicious (and so is the founder, from my limited interaction with him) and that is a huge problem, especially for a group that are alleging to teach a koryu art.

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Mr. LaPrade,

Don't hesitate to resurrect old threads. We treat this forum as an ongoing archive, and I specifically am looking to consolidate information under searchable thread headings.

Glad you had a good experience with Saigo-ha. There are surely people out there teaching arts with dubious lineages that have something practical to offer. That being said, people have a right to know what they are signing on for, and should not be mislead when such an investment of personal time and money is at stake. You only have one family, and life is short. Especially the period in your life in which you have the ideal combination of time, maturity, and stamina available to begin the study of such vigorous arts. It's a shame to waste that period studying an art that you thought was something else, and find yourself starting over as a beginner years later in the art you were really looking for. I've heard this story many, many times!

On the other hand, you generally learn something of value, even if they are only life-lessons.

Regards,

[newtmonkey]

Mr. Scott, thank you for the comment. I agree with you, and I guess it comes down to what one is looking for in martial arts. The technqiues we studied were definitely Aikido and traditional Jujutsu stuff, we didn't do much work with aiki/ki or what have you (especially comapared to something like Roppokai).

As for me, before I joined the class I did a little research, checked out their official site (HUGE site with tons of information ranging from martial arts to Japanese occult to new age medicine) and went and bought the founders Irimi-Nage book, so I knew what I was getting into. I don't care much about lineages or anything (from my limited experience in Japan no one does, or at least no one dares to ask teachers about it), and it was a fun introduction to traditional Japanese jujutsu. I've compared the techniques we were taught to manuals from other styles and they are accurate as far as I can tell. It is just too bad they have to present their lineage as something it isn't (as far as I know). It's a nice system, and a good contrast to Aikido or even other Aikijujutsu systems.

Regardless of the shady history, I think I would still be attending the class if I could.

[muden]

Mr. Scott, thank you for the comment. I agree with you, and I guess it comes down to what one is looking for in martial arts. The technqiues we studied were definitely Aikido and traditional Jujutsu stuff, we didn't do much work with aiki/ki or what have you (especially comapared to something like Roppokai).

As for me, before I joined the class I did a little research, checked out their official site (HUGE site with tons of information ranging from martial arts to Japanese occult to new age medicine) and went and bought the founders Irimi-Nage book, so I knew what I was getting into. I don't care much about lineages or anything (from my limited experience in Japan no one does, or at least no one dares to ask teachers about it), and it was a fun introduction to traditional Japanese jujutsu. I've compared the techniques we were taught to manuals from other styles and they are accurate as far as I can tell. It is just too bad they have to present their lineage as something it isn't (as far as I know). It's a nice system, and a good contrast to Aikido or even other Aikijujutsu systems.

Regardless of the shady history, I think I would still be attending the class if I could.

Do you have any experience with Takumakai Daito Ryu? The Saigo-ha seems to have taken their Aiki no jutsu techniques directly from the Takumakai.

[newtmonkey]

Sorry, I am not familiar with Takumakai. I searched around and they don't have a presence in Nagoya sadly, as far as I can tell. There isn't much for Daitoryu around here- there is a Roppokai group but the style doesn't interest me at all. There is also a group studying Yamamotoden, which I would love to check out but due to my work schedule it's impossible to get out there.