goju ryu bunkai

[BDW]

Does any one know of a paticuler goju ryu kata with lots of joint locks and throws (nage waza)if so can you tell me what kata and where the locking throwing techniques are located in terms of bunkai

domo arigato goziumusu
Ben Wallace

[Gene Williams]

Well, Ben, they are all through the kata. This ain't a virtual dojo, and you probably need to talk to your sensei. Seipei is full of them...are you that far along yet? Gene

[BDW]

Yes I learned sepai a while back I know that there is throws and joint locks at the following sequince

1.before you drop down in shiko dachi for a double punch you do a sweep this is against a front kick and you take out the supporting leg

2.just after doing your low block kakyukai combination you plant your foot and do a 180 degree turn and do what looks like to pressing blocks but is you barring your attackers arm and reinforcing with your other hand

3.the second last move the (mawashi uke) is a juji nage (scissor arm throw)

thank you for your time
Ben Wallace

[elder999]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Well, Ben, they are all through the kata. This ain't a virtual dojo, and you probably need to talk to your sensei. Seipei is full of them...are you that far along yet? Gene

I think what Gene meant is that they are all through ALL the kata...
and, yeah, you need to talk to your sensei.

[Goju-Ryu]

All the katas in Goju-Ryu have throws and joint locks... :rolleyes:

[CEB]

Hello Ben, I don't know what particular Goju tribe you are from but I thought I would mention this one thing. Some of us do kata bunkai which are 2 man exercises. This isn't oyo and these I don't believe are necessarily 'true' or 'secret' meaning of the the forms either. But the 2 kata bunkai do give you a good feel for the forms. You won't find much nage waza in the kata bunkai because it ruins the flow of the exercise having to wait for you partner to get up off the floor. Some goju folks didn't receive these exercises in the course of their training, some did. But I wanted to mention this incase you are thinking in terms of kata bunkai being "the bunkai" you won't find any throws there because that sort of defeats the point of the exercises IMO.

FYI, for any non-Goju infidels :) Kata Bunkai is an exercise where 2 people bow. One person runs the kata and the other person is the opponent and they act out the entire form. Then bow again. It is essentially 2 man kata. The embussen is completely different, they are mostly ran back and forth on a straight line and sometimes there are steps are different and the turns don't exist so the tai sabaki lessons kind of go out the window. But I think it is still a very good training exercise. I find it especially useful for novices learning Geka Sai. They don't find it as boring as Kihon Ido. There are no breaks in kata bunkai like you have in the demonstration of one's bunkai oyo.


I will assume you are asking about bunkai oyo. I've come to the conclusion,(for now) that a lot of oyo is what ever a particluar karate man brings with him. All my oyo seems to have a throw. But then again I am an old Judo and Jujutsu player. My first and long time Goju teacher also did alot of throws. For instance the step toward the rear in Shisochin in you execute what looks like a double hiji-ate, Tomoe Nage. I thought that took quite a bit of imagination myself but my teacher learned that from his teacher who is Mr. Chinen and he was a student of Mr. Miyazato and both those gentlemen were very good Judo-ka. My assumption is this interpretation came from Jundokan teachers having involvement with Judo. I started something here on the forum a year or 2 ago by asking if this kind of thing is correct in the context of karate study. I think I called it reverse engineering. My question was if it is productive or correct to steal techniques from other systems and disguise it as bunkai oyo then call it karate.

I don't know your current experience level. If you are learning Sepai I would think you would be somewhat experienced so I don't want to want sound condescending. I post a lot of stuff for lurkers out there that may be less experienced and are faced with similar questions. But in terms of approaching the study of Oyo I believe you need a basic framework. The best explanation on this subject I ever received came from Kimo Sensei a few years ago. He broke bunkai oyo down into 5 components. (blocking, striking, kicking, grappling, everything,)

Lets take the first move from Geka Sai which is tai sabaki then upper block.

First move we will do blocking bunkai, lets keep it simple. Lets assume an overhead strike and we will block with upper block.

Next lets do striking bunkai. After the block what on your partner is open. His tummy is open so punch him in the solar plexis.

Next the kicking bunkai, Whats open? What can you kick? How about kicking the mother in the shins, sounds fun to me. So kick him in the shin.

Next the grappling bunkai. After the overhead block postion a shoulder throw my be good so let throw him with a seionage then stop his head.

The 5th step is put it all together. Have your partner take an overhead swing at you. Then counter with left upper block followed by simultaneous right punch to solar plexis while along at the same time you kick in the shin with a low right front kick and then follow with a shoulder throw and a stomp. What you have now is bunkai oyo for the first move in Geka Sai which is a left upper block. Now move to the next move the right high punch.

This gives you a structured approach to bunkai oyo. I'll stop now. I think I hit my e-budo daily keystroke limit.

Gambatte Kudasai

[BDW]

ceb are you refering to the rensiko kumite for the goju ryu kata

[BDW]

Just for clarification I already know the bunkai for some of the kata I was asking to see what other ideas people had for bunkai which in fact would be oyo. Just to clarify one more thing as I listed on a previus post I am only a brown belt and my knowledge and experience are very limited I have only been training for 5 1/2 years and have a very long way to go therefor the reason I understand some of these concepts is because I have an outstanding instructor and by no am I at the same level of experience then most of the people on e-budo

[BDW]

I train in okinawin Jundokan goju ryu

[Gene Williams]

I don't teach Seipei to brown belts, shodan either;) Gene

[BDW]

I was very fortunite to learn sepai at my level and that is why I ask questions about it so I can gain as much knowledge as possible

[CEB]

Originally posted by BDW
ceb are you refering to the rensiko kumite for the goju ryu kata

I don't know. You have to ask your teacher on that one. The kata bunkai I described is renzoku kumite but, whether or not it is your renzoku kumite I don't know. Renzoku just means consectutive or one right after another, (boom. boom, boom, no breaks). The tricky thing with these terms is different people use the same words for different things. To some people renzoku waza just means a combination of techniques whether prearranged or not. To others it may mean something more. I am not competent in the Japanese language. Maybe some of the guys who can speak the language will jump in this one. Maybe Mr. Posselius or Mr. Cook are lurking out out there.

[CEB]

Originally posted by BDW
Just for clarification I already know the bunkai for some of the kata ...

Oh I'm sorry Ben I'm not going to be much use to you. You appear to be already beyond my meager level of knowledge. Don't let Mean Gene get you down. It doesn't hurt to ask questions. I don't know if it will be any help but I don't think it will hurt. There are all levels of practitioners on this forum. Have fun, make some new friends and keep on training.

[CEB]

Originally posted by BDW
I train in okinawin Jundokan goju ryu

I saw you posted that you train with George Parluski. Does you Jundokan training come from Mr. Van Lenten. Just curious?

[BDW]

As I mentioned earlier I train in the Yudansha kobu jitsu karate doh federation which Yamanaka shihan formed and because of my membership in this federation I have the honor to train at many seminars the one i trained with Parulski sensei at was a winter camp in Markam Toronto

ben wallace

[BDW]

The training I recieved from Parulski sensei was in ju jitsu and aiki ju jitsu I get my jundokan training from Menei sensei and Hichiya sensei of okinawa they pass the waza onto my teachers who in turn pass the waza onto me

Check ou this excellent book on seiunchn bunkai. Opens up some ideas:

Seiuchin Kata, Secrets Revealed
by Javier Martinez

it Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0965008533/ref%3Dpd%5Fsr%5Fec%5Fcs%5Faps/102-0595072-8011322

[Markaso]

Mr. Boyd

:toast:

Great point about the Oyo!!!

[BDW]

what is the diffrence between oyo and bunkai ? As far as I know oyo is your own personal interpetations and bunkai is the formal application but I am not totally sure.

Ben Wallace

[Markaso]

Mr. Wallace -


Mr. Boyd had a good point about Oyo earlier in this thread. My view from what I have learnd in the past is that the Bunkai of a Kata, to make things simple, is the basic applications of the moves in the Kata as where the Oyo is more of the hidden meaning of the Kata as to the applications. For example you, might feel the one motion, as you were taught, was the only meaning. This might be the Bunkai. But as I learned, the Oyo is the othe meaning of the Kata's motion.

Mr. Boyed brought up a good point that these Oyo could be brought into the Kata by the teacher from other teachers, as well as, I think from, other styles. I think that both Bunkai and Oyo are important learning tools.

[Gene Williams]

I think Ed's post covers a lot. I have always understood oyo to be individual interpretation of kata moves. I do not encourage students below nidan or sandan to play too much that way...there are certain standard bunkai (the more obvious ones) that they need to practice first. For seniors, I encourage them to experiment and learn from other arts and other ryu, as long as the application makes combat sense (flashy stuff and high kicks, etc. are not combat wise), and to be sure the bunkai is "in the spirit of the kata." This, I am aware, can be very subjective, but I think sometimes people reach a bit for the bunkai they come up with. Simpler is always better in combat. The most complex I ever saw my several sensei get were things like shiho nage, uchi mawari, and a couple of shime waza. Karate is primarily atemi; most of the blocking, maneuvering, trapping, etc. is to get to that one devastating gyakuzuki or oi zuki or mae geri ( no higher than the waist, please:D) If things get to grappling, choking, and complex throws, things have gone wrong. But, you still need to know how to do those things. The best thing we ever did was ask an aikido instructor to let us put on white belts and come train with them for about six months on weekends, with one of his seniors visiting our dojo in between. We didn't want rank in aikido, but we wanted to understand the art a little and also look at applications from their perspective. It changed our view of a lot of stuff, and improved our ukemi and footwork greatly. We have mostly lapsed back into karate footwork, but the fine points took. I encourage everyone to visit an art that is different from your own. Wear a white belt...if you go into an aikido dojo or a jujutsu dojo wearing a dan, you will be treated as one. Unless you can do ukemi at their level, you are in for a long afternoon:D Gene

[Machimura]

Originally posted by BDW
what is the diffrence between oyo and bunkai ? As far as I know oyo is your own personal interpetations and bunkai is the formal application but I am not totally sure.

Ben Wallace

Oyo bunkai and kihon bunkai are terms I've heard used. The first term denoting the situational (specific) application of a technique and the latter meaning the basic movement and explanation/interpretation or application of the technique.

Something like that...

Bryan Cyr

[BDW]

I do live in Canada yes