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BDW
17th April 2003, 21:26
does anyone have an aiki ju jitsu waza that they prefer over all there other techniques and if so what attack is it countering

domo arigato goziumusu
ben wallace

O'Neill
18th April 2003, 16:04
I don't have a favorite but Ippon dori is vitally important! I like how it has influenced my understanding of ikkyo.

don
18th April 2003, 18:24
Originally posted by O'Neill
I don't have a favorite but Ippon dori is vitally important! I like how it has influenced my understanding of ikkyo.

How's that? (Many aspects of DR practice have enhanced my understanding of aikido a lot, too, btw.)

BDW
19th April 2003, 18:45
My personal favorite actually two personal favorite aiki ju jitsu waza are koto gaishi (wrist twist throw) and ude osai (arm restraint). I believe that ude osai is the same technique as ikkyo but I am not sure. I like these two techniques because they are flexible and can be done from almost any attack

ben Wallace

Brently Keen
21st April 2003, 22:53
While kotegaeshi, ude osae, and ippon dori are all fine techniques that contain various important teachings, and are both useful and important to know - they are all jujutsu techniques.

I don't think aikijujutsu is characterized by any particular techniques (kansetsu or otherwise) nearly as much as it is by the soft application of "aiki" together with sound principles in accordance with the circumstances.

IOW I think it's more the method of application (using aiki) that characterizes ajj, not any particular techniques like kotegaeshi, etc... A Daito-ryu AJJ practitioner would perhaps favor using aiki or ajj because of it's efficiency over straight jujutsu, but depending on the circumstances (and your objectives) you do whatever presents itself as most appropriate.

The whole notion that ajj consists of certain particular techniques to be used against certain attacks is completely anti-thetical to the nature of authentic aikijujutsu (imo).

IMHO the most important aikijujutsu techniques would be aiki age and aiki sage.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

Brently Keen
22nd April 2003, 16:49
In Daito-ryu, aiki age and aiki sage are not merely principles, they are particular techniques/waza.

As with all tactics/techniques, their proper application is going to involve or adhere to various principles. Likewise the careful study of specific tactics and/or techniques in application may very well illustrate various principles (btw, I think that's one of the primarly purposes of kata in koryu).

What do we mean when we say principles?

Principles are the underlying assumptions, axioms or natural laws that govern the working of tactics and techniques in their application.

It's often said that techniques are the application of principles - and I used to say that too, but if you really think about it, we don't actually "apply principles" do we? No, we apply tactics/techniques that adhere to (or align with) principles.

Now obviously poor tactics/techniques will not adhere to or align with true principles (duh) - and that might be the fault of the practitioner having poor skills, or not properly executing techniques, or it may also be the fault of some martial art styles being based on bad principles, incorrect assumptions, etc..., or a combination both. However, poor tactics, crappy techniques, lousy practitioners, and bad systems/styles are all still subject to sound principles.

There is still a persistant myth or misnotion that aiki (more or less) equals principles, or that "certain principles = aiki". But this is incorrect (imo), because aiki is not merely a "concept" or an "abstract ideal" (at least in DR). In Daito-ryu aiki no jutsu consists of concrete or specific techniques, whereas principles are more abstract - they're assumptions, maxims or rules that govern the working of techniques, behavior or nature. Aikijujutsu is likewise, the more concrete (as opposed to abstract) joining or combining of jujutsu (soft, supple techniques) with aiki no jutsu (techniques of aiki).

In Daito-ryu we can and do apply aiki, but we don't really apply principles per se, rather we align with them, or adhere to them using various methods - tactics and/or techniques. We may also take advantage of certain principles in the sense that we may choose which principles we're going to align with in the application of our techniques, but we're still applying techniques not principles. It's a subtle but important distinction (imo).

For clarity, I think these practical definitions might be helpful to remember:

Tactics refers to "the science of manuevering forces in combat" or "the skill of using available means to reach an end".

Techniques are "the methods, or manner in which details are treated, or physical movements are used.

Principles are the fundamental assumptions, axioms, rules, or laws of nature that govern the workings of tactics and techniques in their practice and application.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

Walker
22nd April 2003, 17:52
So, is aiki a “tactic” or a “technique”?

Brently Keen
22nd April 2003, 18:30
So, is aiki a “tactic” or a “technique”?

:nono: :nono: :nono: :nono:

Ssshhh!! Doug, don't tell everybody, it's supposed to be a secret!

:smilejapa

Brently Keen

MarieB
23rd April 2003, 00:11
like Doug, i still dont know the difference between a tactic and a technique :p

Walker
23rd April 2003, 16:45
Oops! OK, mum’s the word...:smilejapa

don
23rd April 2003, 18:06
I was just watching (again) Aiki News' 1st Friendship Demonstration (http://65.119.177.242/catalog/productdetails.php?code=t74) and noticed Sunadomari's remarkable control of his UKEs (critically, as always--I want to take that UKEMI!). I have some exposure to AIKI AGE, but I haven't experienced AIKI SAGE in DR, yet. My exposure to DR in general is still meager so I was wondering if any DR have seen this segment and what they think of Sunadomari's technique.

Thanks.

Cady Goldfield
23rd April 2003, 19:26
Aiki age is the other side of aiki sage. We're talking "up" and "down". ;)

I don't see them as techniques in and of themselves (although each has a distinctive sequence of action); rather, they serve as a setup to seize control of uke so that a "technique" can be applied.

don
23rd April 2003, 20:23
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Aiki age is the other side of aiki sage. We're talking "up" and "down". ;) (1)

I don't see them as techniques in and of themselves (although each has a distinctive sequence of action); rather, they serve as a setup to seize control of uke so that a "technique" can be applied.(2)

1) Er, someone who's fallen off a ladder, experiencing gravity, hasn't yet had the experience of lift, right? ;)-back! I got the distinction; I haven't taken the UKEMI, though.

2) OK, I haven't experienced them it as setup. How does Sunadomari measure up?

Thanks.

Cady Goldfield
23rd April 2003, 21:47
Don, I didn't mean to sound like I was yankin' your chain. Was just tossing in my $.02 (in a bad economy) on aiki age and aiki sage. :)

I didn't see anything in Sunadomari's demo that would be representative of aiki sage as I know it.

Have you watched the Gozo Shioda tape? It's your basic demo fare, but he does sneak in some nifty little moves now and then.

don
24th April 2003, 23:30
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
I didn't see anything in Sunadomari's demo that would be representative of aiki sage as I know it. (1)

Have you watched the Gozo Shioda tape? It's your basic demo fare, but he does sneak in some nifty little moves now and then. (2)

1) Hmmm...

2) Not for a while. He was a pretty nifty demonstrator.

Thanks.

BDW
24th April 2003, 23:37
first of anyone who has taken a proper aiki ju jitsu waza mostly nage waza will now what aiki feels like wether you have good ukemi or not it will make no diffrence in how hard you hit the tatami. I myself have been on the recieving end of a throw by many a good martial artist with very strong ki and my ukemi did very little to coshion my impact with the tatami.

yours in budo

Walker
25th April 2003, 18:12
Yeah, but if your ukemi sucks every throw is a hard throw beginner or expert (although the expert might take pity and try to lessen the blow.) :)