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Steve Williams
18th April 2003, 01:16
Loads of questions related to sleep

So what do you need personally?
What is considered healthy to get?
Is it different for men and women?
Does it change with age?
Is it different for different sized people?
How long can you survive with "less than required"?

Steve Williams
18th April 2003, 01:19
The reason for asking?

I find that I often go to sleep late (because training then logging onto e-budo, and other bb's) so sometimes only get about 4 or 5 hours a night.
I am realy tired in the morning, but if I "force" myself up I feel fine, and seem to suffer absolutely no ill efects.

Is this going to be a potential problem? Or just let my body decide for itself?

meat
18th April 2003, 05:14
I think 6-8 hours a night is considered healthy for most adults. I tend to need more sleep than most people, who tend to average 5-7. I train 5 days a week plus working 18 or so hours plus university, so I need sleep for my mind and body. I'm usually best with 8(9 is even better), but can survive on 7 for about a week. If I go more than a couple of days with no more than 6 I get really cranky and fatigued.
I'm no doctor, but if you are literally forcing yourself to get up every morning, that doesn't sound too godd. If it was 1 or 2 mornings a week, no problem, but continually depriving your body of the sleep it needs is not a good thing. Any doctors or med specialists out there with some advice?

Tripitaka of AA
18th April 2003, 20:14
For the last 20 months I have been working Nights for five days a week. I have two toddlers (3-year-olds) and I will take care of them when my wife is busy. My shift is from 10pm to 6am. I sleep from around 07.30 until 09.00 then later I grab a snooze from around 16.30 until 18.00. I make that about three hours per day. Some days it shows, some days it doesn't. On my days off I sleep at night, from 00.00 until 08.00 but sometimes interrupted for a couple of hours in the middle.

Judge from my posts whether it has affected my judgement, keyboard skills, general well-being.

On the other hand, I've had irregular and short-duration sleep patterns for around ten years now (don't ask, it's complicated) but I don't suffer from insomnia and can usually get to sleep within sixty seconds.


So as an example of extreme self-abuse (;) ) I can show that it is quite possible to survive on limited sleep. It is just a matter of conditioning. Mind you, there are periods of the day when I am called "the walking dead" by my family and I have fallen asleep into my dinner plate on more than one occasion (seriously!).

MarieB
19th April 2003, 01:53
im similar to Peter...

to answer the questions...

1) i need about 7-9 hours
2) its considered healthy to get 7-8 hours
3) i dont know if its different for men or women. my personal opinion is that men need more sleep than women do.
4) i think the need does change with age.
5) i dont know if 'size matters' :D
6) i can only survive for about a day with 'less than required'. after that, my body gives it what it wants :)

Bruce Mitchell
19th April 2003, 06:10
There was an interesting program on the NPR a while back that discussed sleep debt. I seem to remember that the body can go for extended periods of time on little sleep, but for each hour that you miss, you eventually will need to make it up. I remember that the program also mentioned that you can put away extra sleep time for a rainy day so to speak.

In the studies conducted there were clear links between performance and sleep. Most signifigantly, memory has been shown to improve when new learning is followed up by eight to nine hours of sleep. The study was done using college students.

For six of the past eight years I was averaging five hours a night, but I now find myself needing seven to eight. Started right around the time I became a dad, go figure. Who knows, maybe I would be X degree better at martial arts if I had gotten that extra sleep all along.

Joel Simmons
19th April 2003, 13:32
Aloha,

I usually get about 5-6 hours per night, however, I know for a fact that I need about 8-9. Part of the reason I don't get enough sleep is that I force myself to stay awake finishing work that I didn't complete during the day. Also, posting on BB's and answering email is time-consuming.

In the past, I suffered from severe insomnia. I never would go to the doctor for it. I'm a firm believer that chronic illnesses of that sort are purely pyschological, and no little purple pill will really "fix me." For several months, I would go with only 3 or 4 hours per night, or sometimes I would go without sleep for 2 or 3 days at a time. I blame being a Religion major for that. You know...all those "big" questions rolling around in my head. Sometimes, you just gotta let it all go. Well, after several months of that (usually by the end of the semester) I would just shutdown. Once classes were completed, I would go back to my parents' house and just crash. I would sleep for 12-15 hours per day for maybe two weeks or so. Of course, by that point my Dad was getting on my case for being a lazy-a$$, and it coincided nicely that my summer job wouldn't start until about that time.

One thing I noticed lately, is that since I've been engaged and now I'm married, I tend to get more regular sleep than I did when I was single. Its kind of like my wife and I are trying to match sleep patterns and merge them into one sleep pattern to serve the both of us. I still tend to stay up a little later and wake-up a bit later, but we're roughly on the same schedule.

I remember reading somewhere that you need more sleep as a young adult than you do when you're at middle age. Similarly, elderly people need even less than middle-aged persons. Of course, infants need the most. Seems to decrease with age. Also, I think men naturally need more sleep than women do, however, I think the reality is that women generally get more sleep than men do.

Also, I can attest that sleep deprivation has health consequences. During the times I had insomnia, I would find myself getting sick more often. I would be more susceptible to colds, sinus infections, sore throat, etc. Nothing big, but just enough to make me realize I wasn't at 100%, not even 75%.

aloha,
Joel

luihu
20th April 2003, 11:32
Hi!

I've read something about sleeping and asked around a bit, but what is below I just wrote from my memory without checking the actual numbers. So there might be some mistakes.

I belong to the majority, that have to sleep 7-8 hours a day. I've tried sometime in past to drop it till 6 hours and managed to do it, until I got lazy and dropped the habit of waking up.

In the army we had to do whole weeks with 2-4 hours of sleep per day, but that really didn't feel good and I can remember the fuzzy feeling when you walk back to barracks thinking is this real, or am I dreaming in my tent.

I've understood that the amount of sleeping you need is completely personal. Age has something to do with it and so has your training. We all know that elderly peole sleep just couple of hours a day. On the other hand small children have to sleep really long times and take naps. This is because of growing. Similar pattern works with heavy training or working. After physical training you'll have to sleep longer to let your muscle to recover. Those who train to be fitness champions have two important things.
1. Eat enough
2. Sleep enough

Amount of sleep needed in whole population resembles the Gauss-pattern (not sure of the english term, sorry) so that there is about 2 percent of us, who don't need anymore than 2-3 hours of sleep. On the other hand there is this other 2 percent who'll have to sleep almost 11-12. Most of us (60 percent, if I remember this thing right)drop between 6-8 in optimal circumstances. With optimal circumstances I mean that the effect of heavy training or growing is not noted in the numbers and people tested have been healthy adults.

As far as I know size doesn't have effect on the amount of sleep you need neither iss your gender.

How long do you manage without sleeping? Again I remember that I've read from somewhere that two weeks is the limit without any sleep, after that comes collapsing emotionally and physically. On this too I might be wrong. I dunno if someone have tested clinically what is the minimum time to keep you operative continuously. I'll bet armies have some numbers on this subject.

If you don't sleep enough it has immediate effects on your capability to react and think. Estimate is that effect of night without sleeping is in same class as 1-1,5 promilles alcohol in blood. You aren't drunk, but your reactions are slower. One of the major causes of car crashes is lack of sleep.

József Pap

StanLee
1st May 2003, 13:34
I train 10hours a week, work a 38hr week and tend to get around 6 to 7 hours sleep during the weekdays.

But at weekends I always try to make it up by sleeping 20hours. IMHO, I feel that to train better and learn quicker, one must have sufficient sleep and rest. This will depend on different people and lifestyles, but I have read (in one of those women's mags) that the body will automatically wake up when it has had enough sleep and rest.

So on my days off (especially the last bank holiday in england here) I managed to notch up 40 hours over four days!

I was well rested, but may I also suggest the use of ginko bibloa or ginseng related products. They tend to increase blood circulation (helping the brain) but it also helps to keep me awake and alive longer.

Stan

Jonathan Webber
5th May 2003, 13:25
I once watched a segment of a documentary on sleeping habits of humans, yes the internet and video games are right up there as sleep inhibitors, so are infants and work hours.

But surprisingly, there are a lot of people in china wh meditate for an hour at the start of their day and an hour at the end of their day every day and apparently only need 2 - 3 hours sleep each night... strange yet it somehow makes sense, all the chinese interviewed appeared fit, calmed and healthy so that would also come into play...

Chiburi
15th May 2003, 21:50
Man, lack of sleep really gets to you and all you do after a couple of days. Recently I attended a seminar on the subject by a sleep professor. Although I had only slept for about 4 hours the night before (I was dozing off in the back row :) ) , I remember a few points he made. A lack of sleep (<5 hours for the average, if I remember correctly) only for a couple of days straight already effects your daily life by reducing your ability to perform simple tasks, decreases your ability to think logically and to apply your knowledge in unfamiliar situations (solve problems) etc. By sleeping for <5 hours and getting behind the wheel increases your chances to get hurt in an accident by 4000% (four thousand) from 1 to 40, if you think that after 8 hours of sleep the "bid on your life" is 1.00.
If you sleep for <4 hours and drink one bottle of beer with only a few percent alcohol (anyway the mildest type we have here in Finland), it will have the effect of a six-pack.
And..unlike it was believed before, new studies show that a lack of sleep actually causes an increase in weight.
Of course you all know that a lack of sleep also increases the amount of the stress-hormone cortisone in the brain (not good) and decreases the amount of transmitter substances that are important in the function of especially the frontal lobe (what makes us human) and decreases the ability to store things in long-term memory. Interestingly, there was no effect in remembering and applying learned knowledge (i.e. studying for an exam and sleeping a. 8 hours or more b. less than the normal hours of sleep needed for this individual) the next day, but the individual who had slept for only the minimum didn't remember what he'd learned when asked later (i.e. the next exam), but the other person did.
It's pretty basic knowledge that a 24-hour lack of sleep is equal to an alcohol level in the blood of 0.1%.
A useful advice is that say you're nervouse the night before a job interview. You might think that forcing yourself to sleep would be better because you will look more rested the day after that and the employer will hire you. But this will only result in "restless" sleep in the sense that you don't reach a deep level of sleep. Instead, you should do something that calms you down (i.e. read a book in bed) and when you start feeling tired, go to sleep.

The one-hour lecture included everything for the correct diets to hobbies, but I don't remember even half of it. You see! ;)

Cheers,

joe yang
16th May 2003, 03:50
I've been sleep deprived for about the last four years. My wife went back to school. I worked all night in jail, served warrants all morining, took care of the kids, who are older, thank goodness, made supper, then got five or six hours sleep most nights. If that wans't bad enough, I would pull 36 and 48 hour stretches once every couple of weeks. Oh and teaching two nights a week, training besides. I ended up in the hospital a few months ago, my blood pressure was off the charts, doctor thought it was a heart attack.

Everything is good now. Wifes working. I quit serving warrants. GM's son took over my classes. I'm still working midnights, but I sleep eight hours straight, take Ambien if I have to. I'm off all other meds and my blood pressure is normal. Lack of sleep can kill you.

Shadowronin
19th May 2003, 13:28
The amount of sleep recquired to function properly varies, and is dependant on a lot of factors, such as diet, environment and age.

I'm 25 and need 7-9hrs per night. My 8 yr old nephew sleeps about 10, and my 59yr old mother sleeps 5-6.

Whilst I can do with 3-4 hrs, if I don't catch up I develop quite serious headaches in the morning, and although they dissapear by 11am, my judgement and decision making skills are seriously compromised.

Never underestimate the power of a good lie in!

bruceb
24th May 2003, 14:40
I have been thinking about this, since the thread was posted, and it didn't become clear to me, until today.

In my personal experience, sleep is needed to compensate for the level of physical recovery, or for the level of anxiety.

I know, due to stress, which is part of my Meniere's condition, the anxiety sometimes gets so bad, over the examination of the last forty years, that I have only been able to sleep for a couple of hours for a week or more, or due to physical exhaustion I have slept for 36 hours straight. It kind of makes the question of " how much sleep at night " an open ended subject that can only be measured in light of the surrounding conditions.

At one point in my life, the going out years of my twentys, I would easily survive on five to six hours of sleep for weeks on end, but then, out of the blue, sleep for twelve hours during a dreary rainy weekend. The body needs what the body needs, and if you don't get that rest for physical conditions that appear, sometimes changes in personality will come with stress and anxiety.

7-9 hours of sleep, under normal circumstances, seems to be the tried and true formula, but maybe that is too simple in light of the stress level, or high anxiety? The more keyed up a person is, the less sleep is needed as the mind is unable to relax to allow sleep to occur.

I do know, we surround ourselves with things we want or need, and we either confront or ignor things that give us stress. If you don't get enough sleep the body responds with a variety of warnings such as bags under the eyes, shakes, shivers, mood swings, irritability, and a variety of health issues, so ... as long as you get enough sleep, while monitoring the warning signs for lack of sleep, what ever it takes to find the balance for you is what ever it takes.

Right now, 9-10 hours seems to be what I need for this period of life, 45-50 years old, at least that is what it has been for the last five years or so.