Ninjutsu Koryu or Gendai?

[Sam17]

What is the general opinion of groups such as Mr.Hatsumi's. Are they Traditional or Modern. What do they claim to be? Are they right or not?

Thank you:)

[poryu]

marvelous article that is.

not that I would take that as 100% fact.

[poryu]

tyhe problem with that article is that they have chosen the arts that have had 20(ish) soke in the past 300 or so years, but they have ignored the arts that claim more than that in the same period.

The article could be rewritten ignoring arts such as kashima ryu jikishinkage ryu etc and use only arts that have say 25+ soke in that time period then the article would be pro hatsumi.

Ninjutsu history today is very open to discussion and I doubt we will solve the riddle, but what everyone else fails to notice (except Dr Karl Friday in the article) is that the bujinkan for instance has only 3 ninja related arts.

the rest are not Ninja arts.

Take the Kukishin ryu and the Takagi Yoshin ryu. Both have a proven history and I do believe some of the other branches of the Takagi are members of the Koryu groups and demonstrate at the annula demos.

Not being a member and not taking part at the demos does not automatically prove you are old or new.

I wonder what sources the Koryu article is based on with regards to Hatsumi's schools.

[Sam17]

That sig is a joke, mate.
I had seen that article but I just wanted to know what ninjutsu people thought on the matter. But it’s good to know what fellow koryu practitioners think as well.

Cheers

[John Lindsey]

If people accept the fact that Kukishin is koryu, then what if there were elements of ninjutsu found within the Amatsu Tatara scrolls? We know that Takamatsu Sensei was considering developing a "kukishin-ryu ninpo system, based on the Ryu Sen no Maki. For some reason, he dropped the project and probably added these elements to Togakure-ryu.

I feel that Togakure-ryu is koryu, but was a loosely based collection of knowledge that was systemized by Takamatsu.

[Joel Simmons]

Aloha,

Does systemizing a loosely based collection of knowledge attest to something being Koryu or not? Or, does it testify to the resourcefulness and creativity of a particular individual? Maybe the credit should be given to Takamatsu/Hatsumi for the creation of Togakure ryu?

aloha,
Joel Simmons

[Eric Baluja]

In an early newsletter (sorry, don't have it here at work), Manaka Sensei (of the Jinenkan) came out and said that sometime in the 1960's the decision was made to use the name Togakure-ryu because of its recognition value. Read into that what you will.

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by hawaiianvw67
Maybe the credit should be given to Takamatsu/Hatsumi for the creation of Togakure ryu?

I'm not sure when Togakure ryu was created, but I would definitely say that it was not Hatsumi sensei. Takamatsu sensei also taught this school to Fukumoto Yoshio and gave him menkyo kaiden.

[poryu]

Hi

what manaka sensei is refering to is not the creation of the togakure ryu in the 1960's but rather the collective use of the name. at that time the bujinkan did not exist. they chose to use the Togakre ryu to represent all 9 ryu, this was later replaced it with the name Bujinkan.

They used Togakure ryu because it had more soke than the others. I also guess Ninjutsu was a selling point more than say Kosshijutsu.

[Eric Baluja]

"...selling point..." Interesting...

[JIGOKU]

Hi there,

As I see it the term Ko ryu is used for arts that are recognized by two major Kobudo organisations of Japan.
The fact that neither Kukishin/ Kukishinden Ryu nor Takagi Yoshin Ryu/ Hon Tai Takagi Yoshin Ryu are apparently recognized as such - but both have a proven lineage that would make probably an recognisation possible - shows one more time that most of the organisation in any field (not only Budo) function the same way; put more then two people together and there will be some sort of disagreement etc.....

Despite this fact I would never claim that Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (as we call our art today) is Ko ryu.
We have many Ko ryu elements but we should never forget that the essence that makes Bujinkan is based on the training Hatsumi Sensei recieved by his teachers - and that wasn`t only Takamtsu Sensei. I am sure the training with Ueno Takashi, Nawa (dont remember the name, the guy from masaki ryu) etc... left their traces in Hatsumi`s Budo.....
So we have a mixture of Ko ryu elements and Gendai parts and parts that have no proven history ( Gyokko Ryu and Kotoh Ryu)

The basic taijutsu concepts are found in two arts that claim to be from China - as far as I know and was told over the years there are no writtend documents that prove a lineage in those two ryu ha further back than Takamatsu......and Takamatsu was in China and those two systems have strong similarities with southern chuan fa styles like wing chu, pa kua and hsing I........

Well as long as we dont have full insights in all of Hatsumis Sensei documents and as long as I am not fluent in Japanese I can only present assumptions and mind games :=)))

so long

[Just some guy]

Eric,
I have to chime in here. I have the artical in question in front of me right now and I'm afraid I can't see anything about them creating the name Togakure Ryu. It does say that they studied only Togakure Ryu however. It is a bit oddly worded I guess.
I wanted to end with saying that I agree with something someone said earlier, You can't call the Takamatsu arts Koryu, really. Somethings have no documented history (i.e. Togakure, Gyokko, and Koto Ryu) while other things with a proven history (Kukishin Ryu Takagi Yoshin Ryu ect. ) most likely have Takamatsu's spin on everything. So if everyting does go before Takamatsu then we would be doing Takamatsu Ha blah blah blah. Kind of like Takamura Ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu for example.
This isn't really bad. There are plenty of Koryu that are nothing more than Japanese Dance classes now while many Gendai arts are also not worth anything. I can't say for the other groups but Manaka Sensei doesn't use the term Koryu anywhere and doesn't call hiis martial art Koryu either. As long as people are honest about the whole history or the possible history that's all that is important.
Tschuss,

[ghp]

Hi Jason,
Privately, many of these same teachers and headmasters often end up at his house requesting his assistance.

Wonder why... If your statement is true -- and I have no reason to doubt otherwise -- then I would venture to say, "perhaps because they do not recognize ninjutsu as an authentic style in its own right, but they do recognize a legitimate budo behind the name." And as most people -- rightly or wrongly -- consider "shinobi arts" as ninja-gokou they would not want to be associated or -- if a very well-known visitor -- to seemingly lend approval or recognition.

By saying "style in its own right," I mean as a separate ryu; I do not mean the elements of shinobijutsu extant in arts such as Shinto Ryu in which are taught as techniques, not as a "ryu."

As an extreme analogy, I could create my own style and call it Berzerker-jitsu, saying it was a Viking koryu art (consists mainly of gnawing one's shield and running around in a bear skin). However, people still might come to me because my knowledge of Toyama Ryu & Nakamura Ryu are legitimate and documented.

Please do not read my response as being dismissive, combative, or antagonistic (easy to do when discussing ninja topics). This is merely my attempt to answer to your question.

Regards,
Guy

[Meik Skoss]

No, that's not the same ryu. The swordwork is his own stuff, and the shuriken is derived from Negishi-ryu.

The guy in the picture is named Kono Yoshinori. He's a bit of an odd duck: a former Aikikai regular back in the '70s (very much a follower of Yamaguchi Seigo's teaching), he also did a bit of the variety of Kashima Shin-ryu taught at the Shiseikan Dojo in Meiji Shrine, and Negishi-ryu shurikenjutsu. I've trained with him on a number of occasions. I can honestly say that, while I do not think much of his taijutsu or swordwork, what he does with a shuriken has to be seen to be believed. He's *got* to be one of the best people alive with this weapon, hands down.

Like I said, though, an odd duck. Kind of a macrobiotic bushi, with a touch of strange thrown in. But then, I'm not exactly the most unprejudiced observer...

[Mekugi]

edited as per Russ' request.

[Peter Carlsson]

Originally posted by Mekugi
edited as per Russ' request.

But there is also another side of the coin...the teacher of Mr X, was acknowledged by the ryu's family head, because he helped to bring back the knowledge of martial art into the familytradition. This is also stated on the website, where you most probably did get the information about that the certificate in question. What can be guaranteed is that Mr. X was a student of this teacher, who in his turn had very good contacts with the family.

As this have been stated on the website mentioned above for a period of time, bringing it up here just to start a flamewar in not very constructive. If you on the other hand, had done some serious research, went to Mr. X and seen the certificate yourself, read it, got the stamps verified etc., so that you could bring some new information into the debate, then you would have helped to sort ot the situation of different opinions...or at least clarified the different opinions.

Best regards

Peter Carlsson
Malmö Taijutsuklubb - Bujinkan Dojo
Sweden

[Mekugi]

edited as per Russ' request.

[Peter Carlsson]

Originally posted by Mekugi
edited as per Russ' request.

You most probably have your opinion made up. But the people who have seen the certificate in question, with the stamps from said family head, may have another opinion.

Nothing can be won with your statement, unless you actually want to restart this flamewar, and why would you like to do that?

And if it now was a blank (with the stamps of the family head), then it might be that this person had full confidence in the instructor's choice of the person to receive the certificate...not? And then it would be legit anyway...exactly the same as when I order diplomas in blank from Mr. X, and those students who receive them are legimately recognized as holder of that diploma and grade...because of the confidence between Mr. X and the instructors under him...

Best regards

Peter Carlsson
Malmö Taijutsuklubb - Bujinkan Dojo
Sweden

[Mekugi]

edited as per Russ' request.

[El Guapo-san]

There are some interesting new lineage charts up on the site.

My burning question is how did that Anglo get to be included in the last demonstration?

Elvis Sensei's sideburns do look pretty cool in any case.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by El Guapo-san
My burning question is how did that Anglo get to be included in the last demonstration?

Because he is a member of the ryuha. BTW, the name listed on the website is not his real name. It wasn't intentional, just an accident. I do know who it is, but I'm not sure if he wants his name posted. He is a member of E-Budo and if he wants to mention it, I'm sure he'll post.

[El Guapo-san]

I don't really care who he is, just kinda cool that whoever he is, he's there. (WHAT, not WHO.) Beyond that, it's just a point of interest.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

[Mekugi]

Thanks George! Appreciated!

-Russ