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CEB
22nd April 2003, 16:27
We have covered similar issues in the past. But I don't think we covered this in how it relates to The Boxer's break.

The fist as seen in Goju Ryu has the thumb pulled over and covering the first two fingers. This makes the fist feel tighter. But the increased tightness is actually focused on the bottom (pinky side of the fist). There are other factors involved in this fist method in addition to the applied striking method but I want to concentrate on the effect on striking surface and fist strength first.

My Shorin Ryu friends only cover the first finger (pointer finger) with their thumb. This acutally tightens the fist in the area of the striking knuckles (index finger side). If you train makawara try both methods and you should see what I mean. The Shorin fist feels better on the makiwara to me.

Most common fist injury is boxer's break which occurs in the bottom portion of the fist. My question is: Does the Goju fist do more to prevent boxer's break than the shorin fist since the fist is tighter in the lower portions of the fist?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gene Williams
22nd April 2003, 16:44
Thank God! I thought this was going to be a kinky sex post:D We make the Shorin fist, index finger extended along base of thumb and thumb covering index finger, little finger squeezing tightly. This fist is much stronger than the modern, JKA type fist, which is more like a boxer makes. I always thought Goju did it just like us...learn something every day. The fist we make is noticeably tighter and stronger, to me, than any other I have tried. I have never had a student break a hand, and neither have I. I do not do a lot of board breaking, but when I have in the past, the fist goes through two boards with no resistance at all, three without hurting me, and yes, I have had to hit three boards more than once to get the break :p Like most Okinawan styles, upon completion of the punch, the fist is at a diagonal rather than flat with respect to the floor like in JKA. This saves on elbow hyperextension and, in my view makes a stronger punch. Thanks, Gene

Goju Man
22nd April 2003, 21:24
Classic Goju fist is all I've ever used. Didn't realise that there were so many different ways to make one.:p

CEB
22nd April 2003, 22:03
Originally posted by Goju Man
Classic Goju fist is all I've ever used. Didn't realise that there were so many different ways to make one.:p

Basically the only difference is the placement of the thumb. The classic Goju fist seems to increase the isometric tension in the forearms when doing Sanchin but I didn't know if the increased tension in the bottom portion of the fist had any bearing on preventing a boxer's break because it is the small bones in the back of the hand usually between the pinky and ring finger that usually fail.

We had one case of boxer's break recently. The dans usually don't wear fist protectors when we spar each other. Two guys went to punch each other at the same time and punched each other in the fist. The tougher fist won.

Goju Man
22nd April 2003, 23:59
that's where you know who's been hitting the makiwara.:D

Hank Irwin
23rd April 2003, 15:56
Our fist, the tip of thumb extends all the way to the ring finger, making the middle and foreknuckle slightly protrude. When hitting the makiwara, the ring and little finger don't touch the striking surface. I have broken those little bones many times on both hands, they are a pain to heal up, but with good Zing Gu Shui they heal faster. Shuto's to metal pole will sometimes break yo' bones.Hahaha!

Do you guys/gals use conditioning Jow before you hit maki? I have come to learn over the years it helps greatly with the soreness and stiffness, and WILL help to heal. Finding a good conditioning/healing oil is not easy. The China Districts are full of good apothacaries. I have heard so much regarding full extension punches being harmful, hyperextension and such. I have been punching through my targets for as long as I can remember. 34 years to be precise, no problems as of yet, may happen sonner or later, but at this rate, later in life. Just like you take care and protect your Buki(weaponry) from the elements, you must do the same for your body, especially your extremeties. We do a lot of hard conditioning. Koreatay is utmost important. Good technique is one thing, but if you can't take contact, you are in deep trouble. :cool:

CEB
23rd April 2003, 17:07
Originally posted by Goju Man
that's where you know who's been hitting the makiwara.:D

I don't know if the makiwara will condition the hands in a way that will help prevent a boxer's break from occurring. I'm not saying it doesn't. I am saying I don't know. It will condition the hands in a way that gets the hands used to hitting and less sensitive to impact. Kind of like iron body training in Goju. No woo woo science involved, you just get used to being smacked and eventually it doesn't bother you. If your fist hits something hard, especially if your alignment isn't just right something could break. The makiwara will teach you proper kime and proper alignment and proper striking surface and those things can help prevent injuries. But in terms of 'conditioning' bone to be less suseptable to breakage a good calcium supplement may be of more value.

Do boxers do impact conditioning with their fist? I know Roberto Duran used to be reffered to as having 'hands of stone'. Boxers rely 100% percent on their fist and they fight with gloves and still suffer from breaks. A karate teacher I know who was a boxer back in the 50's told me that boxers today do not have hands that are as heavy or as hard as they used to have. He said they don't do heavy bag conditioning without gloves like they used to. I don't know if there is anything to this or not. I think there may be a natural tendency to think that the younger generation is not made of as stern of stuff as your generation. I know I catch myself thinking that with the younger karate guys but in my case it is the gosphel truth of course. ;)

CEB
23rd April 2003, 17:15
nevermind.

Hank Irwin
23rd April 2003, 22:10
Punching the maki will not strengthen those little bones, I agree. Conditioning them will. Strikes with the little knuckle are dangerous, you can break both bones on impact if strike doesn't hit proper target. We use a fist like that, striking with the little knuckle, it comes from Kise Sensei. It has it's restrictions though. Boxing was the first fist art I encountered as a kid. We worked the heavy bags only with wrappings. My Sensei's two first knuckles look like one, and when he hits you just lightly, it goes straight through you to your spine. It has taken him years and years of conditioning to reach this pinnacle. I have always been in awe of his punching ability, and it seems the older he gets the harder. My students say the same thing of me, but I know I still have a long way to go. I'm still punching the maki and rocks, he punches rocks and steel. No big ugly knukles either. Jow! yow!yow!


The most important thing about conditioning is that you do it slowly, otherwise you risk danger of permanent injury. The worst part about that is, it will change your thinking about how important it really is, and you will eventually stop conditioning. Big mistake. I have had some pretty good injuries over the years, most of them being in class. Street scurmishes I don't count, but have had some nasty one's there, without conditioning I wouldn't have made it. Many schools do not indorse conditioning, but it's your reasons for studying martial arts that is the motivation. Many just want physical fitness, some want sport, some even venture into martial arts as a hobby, these are esoteric to a degree. But for those who want reality, it's a condition of the mind, body and soul. What's that old saying? Slow and steady wins the race? Is same with conditioning. :)

CEB
24th April 2003, 16:20
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
Punching the maki will not strengthen those little bones, I agree. Conditioning them will. ....

How do you condition your fists? We condition our bodies a lot. We do a lot of arm banging and shin banging and we line up across each other and punch each other in the bellies. When doing leg stretching and we are lowering our head to the middle we slap our wood floor alternating palm side and backside. We tell beginners to take this easy. I don't know if this conditions the hands to prevent breakage or just makes us less sensitive to pain from impact. We do this because sensei told us to and one day sensei was gone but his methods remain. There wasn't always a lot of verbal explanation.

We of course do Shime training in Sanchin kata but that is a different animal all together. Sanchin kata itself helps you take a punch and makes you stronger but the purpose of shime is to simply help you do more than you can do alone.

I cross-trained in an ecletic sort of Jujutsu school about 20 years ago that was an offshoot of Danzan Ryu. The teacher also had an instructor certificate in Wing Chun. He felt every one should train in some sort of boxing method so he taught what he knew of Wing Chun. He did an Iron palm training set that used jow and these bags of beans. Is this the type of training that you use to condition the fist? Thanks for your input.

Hank Irwin
24th April 2003, 17:04
Ahh, very good! That is one form of conditioning the fist. The sand and pebble buckets also. Do not forget massage also. Always rub hematomas away from the heart no matter what the conditioning. This can be painful, but, beneficial to healing. Our very first exersise(after bow in and brief maksool/meditation) is in push-up fashion on first two knuckles, 1 fist distance between, belly towards the floor, feet together. For at least 10 minutes. This is very good conditioning exersise. Helps push protruding knuckles down and helps harden them and strengthen them. Strengthens the arms,lower back,shoulders, and conditions the toes. Advanced applications are bouncing on first knuckles, striking floor with big toe to pass time, hahaha!, and dragging yourself from one side of the dojo to the other. Strengthening the fingers also makes the fist stronger, finger stands/pushups and such. Takes a little getting used to though, try it sometime and see how long you can stay before submitting, knuckles up, ich, ne, sam, che, go, go, go! :D

CEB
24th April 2003, 17:51
We do push ups on our primary knuckles. Then from the up position we lift on fist in the air then strike down to the floor alternating right and left. I never knew if this kind of practice strenthens bone or just makes us numb.


From what gather in your your exercise your fist are under your belly. I've never done that. Interesting about the compacting the knuckles down. I met a man who moved here he does Wing Tsun. Basically same thing as Wing Chun except his knowledge is greater than what my old Jujutsu teacher was. They punch with the full front face of the fist. He can hit hard with it. He showed me how by punching the concrete floor of his garage. The fist is held loose and collaspes on its self and tightens on impact. I've tried it but I can't seem to do it because my first two knuckles are too big and no matter what I do they hit the floor first. The Wing Tsun fist is about impact disbursement. I think it would be bad to try to use that method if your hands won't allow true disbursement of energy so I quick abandoned the concept but the pak sau, taun sau drills I like a lot and I still work them from time to time with a fellow goju guy who is my main training partner that I taught them to.

I guess my understanding was we wanted the large striking knuckles to hit with. Plus they are scarry looking.

A hand training device we use called tama. They are steel balls. A pair of 2 inch steel ball bearings work. A few select MA suppliers sell them. This is something that you could probably get into if you don't use them already. I prefer to take any further discussion concerning tama offline.

Thanks for the info.

Shitoryu Dude
24th April 2003, 20:52
One thing to remember while you are "toughening" up parts of your bodies is that you are actually damaging them quite a bit if you follow some of the very old practices. Quite often the end result of making your shins, hands, etc "tough" is severe arthritis at a minimum. Look to your future - unless you plan to be dead by age 40 you are most likely not doing yourself any favors if you go to the extreme on this.

:beer:

Hank Irwin
24th April 2003, 22:21
Yeah, big knucles are not the goal. The knuckle ups I talked about will help. The way you actually position yourself is as follows:after meditation, from seiza(sitting on shins,feet under) measure from knees 3 fists(bottom of hand against knee) distance up,place fists(thumbs in), go into pushup position, belly down, you will feel tension in arms but try to relax. That will put your fists close to belly. After finishing, keep fists clenched and return to seiza. Fists at hips te-uke(palm up) Breathe in as you raise fists up closer to armpits, breathe out slowly, naturally, as you extend out to spearhand strike at neck level(hands close and palm down). Extend fingers all the way out, flex them 3 times, repeat slowly 2 more times, then with speed for 10 total repetitions. Doing koreatay is ver important. Maki, everyday yes,knuckle-ups everyday, arm, leg and body 3-5 times a week no less. The beginner may be only able to take once a week. After 6 months improvement starts and muscle/tendon change begins to occur. This is when an Instructor with herbology experience comes in handy. If you are going to study serious MA's you have to know how to heal wounds and injuries of all kinds, not just bruises. The Masters once they hit 70 or so did not have to condition as much because of the shape they were already in. Besides, at that age it is not good to do too much conditioning because the calcium production starts to dwindle in later life for most of us. The conditioning I feel, is what got them there. :D

Hank Irwin
24th April 2003, 22:28
I adhere to these training principles also, and train everyday. Have been for 30 years, and have no problems playing my gootar, or painting, or anything movement-wise. I will be 48 in Oct. But I do know others that have paid a price for wanting too much too fast, or improper healing techniques.:D

CEB
24th April 2003, 22:46
Never had any problems with my hand dexterity yet but I'm about 10 years behind Mr. Irwin. No problems with my piano playing yet, I still get paid.

Had a lot of trouble with my feet and ankles. I thought maybe it could have been due to training methods or wear and tear from Judo. I finally went to the doctor and it seems I have had diabetes for sometime now. Now feel better than when I thought I felt good. The funny thing about the diabetes is that it crept up on me in a real slow way that made me just kind of chalk up my deterioration to being age and mileage related. I'm training every night now with an energy level I have not had in probably 8 years. I guess I should have went to the doctor sooner.

Hank Irwin
25th April 2003, 02:17
One of my students, Jeffsan, has had diabeties since childhood. He is 43 know. He has been a student for almost 7 years. It is unfortunate, but he needs both kidneys and pancreas tranplant, and has been on list for 2 years now. He also does dialysis twice a day at home. He also has a line inserted into his stomach to dispense insulin since it is not longer manufactured through his system. This makes for big difficulties when it comes to training. But I trained him the old way and I wish I had 10 more like him. But I have to keep him down for his own sake. I remember when he first started training, his wife hated the idea and didn't care much for me either because of it. But one day in Piedmont Park Jeffsan and his wife were accosted and Jeffsan whipped his ass Hahaha! She called me immediately to express her gratitude for teaching him. He also had a bad accident when he was 17 and has partial use of his left arm and left leg. It was amazing when she told me what happened. EdSan, take real good care of yourself, diabeties is a nasty disease no one should have. Listen to your Doc's, eat the right foods and EdSan, you don't have to worry about the exersise, that's for sure. We need to be good to ourselves. Heiwa & sue me no sai.

Goju Man
25th April 2003, 02:52
Ed, my mom has gotten now at eighty years of age. The most important think I can say is check your blood sugar often, and follow your diet. I guess that's two things.;)

Hank Irwin
25th April 2003, 13:54
Mannysan is right, sugar levels are important. Jeffsan would come to class around 135 and be down to 40 half way through class. This was when it started to get bad for him, he went off his diet for some stupid reason. Do not end up like him, shunt in the arm all the way up into his neck. I have an aunt that died from diabeties, self inflicted, 12 pack of Pepsi a day. Have an uncle going the same way, except with Coca-Cola, except he is closer to a case a day. He was having trouble with his feet... He woke up one night, to his dog chewing his big toe off!! He lost the foot 3 months later. We have to be good to ourselves.