Difficulties in translating (do we have to learn Japanese?)

[David Dunn]

Dave excellent article on hokei on the BSKF website - exactly the sort of things that deters me from submitting my less scholarly musings on such subjects to George

Thanks Tony. The MO is as follows: submit something to George, who tells you that it would get a reasonable mark in a kyu grading exam, take it back and spend a lot more time with it :rolleyes:

I think those that can actually read the Japanese should do some more scholarly writings for us. For example, who can explain the difference between `ichinyo', `funi' and `ittai', which are often all translated as `unity'? My Japanese colleague here had a go. `Funi' he said implies should not be separated. `Ittai' means are part of the same (human) body. But ichinyo is likely to have specific zen meanings. Can anyone confirm/deny/elucidate? There's masses of scope for lots of little pieces like this.

With nage waza, there are some on our syllabus where simply falling down is far less comfortable (not to say ungainly) than making a decent ukemi - something I've yet to be able to do consistently despite Sensei reminding me frequently that my attempts are, er, not so good.

[tony leith]

Interesting stuff of the nuances of what the terms usually translated as 'unity' are translated. I have to admit that my desire to comprehend Shorinji Kempo philosophy stops a little way short of wanting to learn Japanese. Arguably this sets me at a profound disadvantage given that this is the medium it was originally articulated in, and admittedly any translation is imperfect, but I am also a little uncomfortable at the idea that there are some profoundities that can only be thought about in Japanese. Arai Sensei was talking quite movingly at Honbu recently about Shorinji kempo needing to transcend its origins and to become a worldwide movement. Do we have to accept that if you can't speak/read japanese there are just fundemental limitations on your ability to understand the philosophical content of Shorinji kempo - if so, what are the implications for its future globally?

Tony leith

[David Dunn]

I don't reckon Kyohan is ever going to be translated, so probably the only way to be able to read it is to learn Japanese.

[Anders Pettersson]

_||_
Gassho.

I've took the above post away from the Ukemi thread (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18446) because I thought it was off topic and deserved a thread of its own.



Originally posted by David Dunn
I don't reckon Kyohan is ever going to be translated, so probably the only way to be able to read it is to learn Japanese.
Actually Hombu have decided to translate the Kyouhan and the work are being planned.
However do not expect it to be done quickly, it is a massive work.


Concerning the need to know Japanese, I think that in order to understand many finer nuances of Shorinjikempo there is some need in actually understand some Japanese and meaning of kanji.

What I know about Japanese is more or less what I have learned during visits in Japan, last few times I have usually spent some weeks living in my Sensei's house (or actually in his small office in the dojo that are connected to there house), which is great since his grand children only speaks Japanese and that is one way to learn apart from regular practice.

As for kanji I mostly know the kanji in our kamokuhyo (made a Swedish translation of it that also include Japanese and the pages that are missing in the official English version Hombu made if compared to the original Japanese).

From there I moved on to try and translate parts of the Kyouhan. Not very easy but today I manage to read most of the explanations of the Goho. Juho tend to be a little more complicated in their explanation. :(

Anyway I recommend those of you who can to get a copy of the Kyouhan (you need to be nidan or above) to do that, even if you don't know Japanese that gives you a reason to start and learn some.

/Anders

[Indar]

From observation, it does seem that those people who have an interest in Japanese language and culture are also the people who gain a deeper understanding of Shorinji Kempo; certainly when I visited Japan my views changed, and it seemed to me that both my technical and philosophical waza improved. Other people also commented on this.

It's also the case that this doesn't have to be all or nothing; I've seen people start to learn both spoken Japanese and Kanji, only to give up after a few months. My knowledge of Kanji is very limited, maybe half a dozen learnt over a number of years, but still worthwhile.

Indar Picton-Howell

[George Hyde]

From my kenshi (ever helpful in such matters) Melita...

fu-ni = literally means "not two" - therefore a pretty objective, simple
statement: cannot/should not be separated

ichi-nyo = "oneness" - implies a much more spiritual element; perfection

ittai = "one body" - one object; the character for body is that to show
a physical entity;

She goes on to note that by translating them all as "unity" all the above, carefully selected kanji nuances are lost.

Personally, whilst my Japanese is far from good, I have found that knowing the origins of the kanji used (and their various non-kempo applications) is a significant aid to understanding their meaning, and more importantly, their application to what we do.

Re: kyohan - Arai Sensei confirmed that the cost of the translation has been accounted for in the 2003 budget. However, as Anders pointed out, I think it will be some years before we see anything. In addition, whatever we end up with will inevitably be an interpretation of the original and NOT the original in English. A subtle but important difference - the ONLY way to grasp the original intent is to learn Japanese - and probably a fair amount of Japanese history - and anthropology - and buddhist/zen teachings - and...

Question: Can anyone put a date on when the kyohan was first published and when the syllabus was first formalised? - I can't imagine that either happened over night.

Later,

PS: Melita is currently working on a very comprehensive Japanese vocab for the UCL web site, which I predict will be excellent!