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sauth
4th April 2003, 05:17
I've been looking around on google and through these forums, and I'm not finding a great deal on juttejitsu schools. I don't want to do, say, SMR (interesting as it'd be) for years and years just to learn jutte techniques mostly against swords.

Does anyone have suggestions on styles where I might get to use a jutte in a reasonable amount of time?

Are there styles that have a pretty strong jutte curriculum primarily for subduing unarmed or lightly armed attackers?

Would I be better off looking for more modern keibojutsu/taihojutsu schools? I'd prefer to work with a traditional jutte, but if the techniques are close enough, I couldn't complain.

I'm in the USA now but hopefully headed to Japan to do the JET Program next year, so schools in either country would be of interest.

My thanks if anyone can chime in with helpful info. These juttejutsu books online are looking awfully tempting, but I want to avoid that route if at all possible.

Don Cunningham
4th April 2003, 17:45
For traditional jutte, you don't have many options. Yumio Nawa sensei with help from his senior students is still teaching Masaki-ryu in Tokyo. Daniel Lee is an Australian who trains in Masaki-ryu and might be able to get you in touch with them. E-mail me at don@e-budokai.com and I can give you their address, but unless you're fairly fluent in Japanese it won't help much. Your best option is to contact Daniel. He posts frequently here on e-Budo.

Tanemura sensei of the Genbukan also teaches some authentic traditional jutte waza in his curriculum. I would avoid any of the other ninja groups, though. I've seen their jutte techniques and they have very little in common with koryu and appear to be fabricated.

There are some Shibakawa-ryu practitioners training somewhere around Kyoto, but they're sort of difficult to find. Like many other martial arts styles, Shibakawa-ryu originally included a lot of jutte waza. I don't know if they still practice with jutte, though. Most of the other styles discontinued jutte training sometime after the Edo period and it is very rare to even find current instructors still familiar with their own jutte curriculum.

Rick Polland in Maryland has often brought instructors from Ikkaku-ryu for seminars in jutte kata. I've also heard of another Masaki-ryu instructor, John Quinn, in Maryland-Virgina-DC area. He's a former student of Charles Gruzanski, the author of Spike and Chain. If that's close, send me an e-mail and I'll give you his address, too.

We've tried starting a jutte study group here in the Chicago suburbs in conjunction with our sport judo club. Other than a couple of clinics, though, I haven't been able to generate much interest. If you're interested in history of jutte, I recommend my own book. However, it is not suitable for "how-to" study. Good luck and let me know if you find any other options.

Walker
4th April 2003, 19:09
There is jutte in Shinto Muso Ryu, but I would expect that there is a lot to learn before one got to that section of the curriculum.

Don Angier has a video of Yanagi Ryu tessen and jutte techniques. Like the other Don’s book it’s not really for study. Angier sensei did a seminar last year on jutte, tessen and hojojutsu and has been know to show a few things in other seminars.

sauth
4th April 2003, 20:08
I'm in the New Orleans area for the time being, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing like what I'm looking for anywhere around here.

I speak only a little Japanese at this point, just under two semester's worth.

It's not even possible to get to Tokyo via JET, alas. Kyoto is possible, but hard. Commuting would be somewhat of a hassle. Where's my dang ancient Japanese guy in a Shinto shrine in the middle of nowhere?! ;)

The number of results I had involving ninja wasn't exactly comforting, but it's good to hear that at least Tanemura-sensei and his people are decent. That word sets off lots of warning signals in my head.

I saw various books and videos online, including yours and Hatsumi Masaki's Hanbo/Jutte/Tessen book. I might get some of that eventually... but I've got ~2 years of empty hand work under me and some minimal weapons stuff, so I at least know enough not to try to teach myself from books... unless I just get really desperate/bored.

Where do you get your jutte, by the way? I've been drooling over various pretty but expensive ones on the net (Bugei, Kris Cutlery.)

Thanks for all the help!

Don Cunningham
4th April 2003, 21:01
Where's my dang ancient Japanese guy in a Shinto shrine in the middle of nowhere?!
Funny you should mention that. I learned a few jutte waza from a Shinto priest in Sasebo who had studied it as part of his family's martial art. He mainly teaches Zen Nippon Kendo Renmai at the local community dojo, but showed me the jutte techniques because of my interest. We were staying with his family for some time before returning a tsuba. It was all arranged by the Sasebo City Council and the Nagasaki Shimbun.

I openly apologize to Don Angier and his students. I have a copy of his videotape, and the tessen and jutte techniques demonstrated are excellent. It merely slipped my mind when posting before.

As for where I get my jutte, I've bought some antique ones on eBay or from private collectors and dealers, but the best ones I've found were in Japanese flea markets. Many of the shrines in Japan host flea markets on alternate Saturdays. It's sort of like treasure hunting. You have to dig through a lot of junk, but the occasional find makes it all worth it.

As for modern replicas, I think the Paul Chen version sold by Bugei is probably the best value. Very well done and makes a great display piece. I've found a few others from various suppliers, both here and in Japan, but they can often be nearly as expensive as the authentic antique ones and not nearly as well made. For practice, I recommend using one of the really cheap chrome jutte, usually available for around $20. I wouldn't want to damage one of my antiques or even more expensive replicas, so these make good practice implements for both unarmed and armed defense.

New Orleans is one of my favorite cities to visit. Of course, tourists are always welcome here in Chicago, but I don't recommend visiting during the winters.

poryu
4th April 2003, 22:02
Hi

I beg to differ at what Donn may say regarding some of the ninpo groups jutte waza.

The Bujinkans jutte originates from the Kukishin ryu and can be found in the Genbukan and jinenkan. In the Jinenkan Manaka sensei give credit for his jutte to kukishin ryu and Masaki Ryu.

The kukishin ryu has an old and proven history and as such I doubt the kata are made up. Some people who perform them may not have advanced skill with the kata and may look like they are making it up which is unfortunate. With out doubt the 5 Jutte kata in the Kukishin ryu can be found in other branches of the kuki Ryu-ha that are not associated in any way with the ninpo groups

sauth
4th April 2003, 23:11
I made the comment because I was amused by the disparity between what I perceive to be the popula view and the response I was getting... and the way technology and all that is effecting everyone. Senseis in Tokyo with a web site, and all that.

I guess the old way ain't quite gone yet, though, thank goodness. I've grown somewhat dependent on this new fangled internet garbage, but chances are I should just see if I even end up in Japan and do the footwork wherever I end up.

Still, if anyone knows of a good instructor who's not going to want to make me wait forever to play with jutte, I'd love to hear about it. Especially as part of a JJJ or aikido system, since then I'd probably be as interested in the preliminary training as the jutte stuff.

Yeah, I'd definitely want to start off with a cheaper jutte to play with and mess up, but some of those pricier modern ones look very nice indeed. Ahh, temptation. I'll have to watch myself when I get near authentic jutte for sale.

Don Cunningham
5th April 2003, 16:49
The Bujinkans jutte originates from the Kukishin ryu and can be found in the Genbukan and jinenkan. In the Jinenkan Manaka sensei give credit for his jutte to kukishin ryu and Masaki Ryu.
Paul,

You're welcome to your opinion and I respect it. However, my comment referred to jutte waza presented as practical koryu bujutsu. Without going into all the old arguments, the bottomline is that the ninjutsu styles you cite are not generally recognized as koryu martial arts. Refer to Ninjutsu: is it koryu bujutsu? (http://koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html) for more details about koryu versus gendai martial arts.

I've seen the jutte waza as presented on videos by the major ninjutsu teachers. I've also seen jutte kata performed by some of their students. (I have to agree with your comment that many of the latter lack skill.) I have also extensively researched Edo period history, especially as it relates to arresting arts and implements. I will have to stand by my original comment.

With the exception of Nawa sensei and Tanemura sensei, what I've seen certainly appears to be more modern fabrications rather than based on any valid historical information. I did not mean to imply they have no merit or that they are without practical application, just that they do not appear to have basis in koryu style waza.

poryu
5th April 2003, 18:38
Hi Donn

I agree with you that nawa sensei is maybe one of the best representatives of Jutte. I have never seen any vidoe of Tanemura sensei doing Jutte so I can not comment.

I recognise your knowledge with the jutte, as mentioned by my self before in another thread I have your book and have read it.

However. The Kukishin ryu that is found amongst the different Ninpo organisations is not ninpo and never has been. It has a traceable history going back to the sengoku era. Just because a ryu is not a member of some organisation of various does not mean it is not Koryu. I dont think this needs discussing further as it willa s always just turn into a flame war.

I am familiar with the Koryu article. I wont post my person thoughts on that article.

My suggestion is your your after jst a Jutte art then the masaki ryu is the best best

sauth
5th April 2003, 19:30
Thanks for the advice!

I definitely plan to shop around for a teacher/school that "feels" right. Better to have pointers to good areas than to one school/teacher that one person happens to like.

As I said above, I'd much rather just get into the jutte, but I can see how doing it as part of an entire system would be required, and probably a good idea anyway.

If I'm still interested in the jutte when I actually get there, I'll see if there's anywhere that suits my needs and happens to teach it.

cheers,

BDW
17th April 2003, 19:45
Is there any information that I would be able to get on the Jutte. A example might be info on history uses etc etc. The info can be from anywhere a web site or some one on this forum thats all for now

domo arigato goziumusu
Ben Wallace

Jack B
17th April 2003, 20:09
Buy Don Cunningham's book, "Secret Weapons of Jujutsu". You may want to PM him.

Don Cunningham
18th April 2003, 04:48
If you just want an overview, here's an online article I wrote:

Jutte--Weapon of the feudal Japanese police (http://www.e-budokai.com/hibuki/jutte.htm)

If you want to see some actual photographs, here's an online site about my recent exhibit:

Arresting arts of the samurai (http://www.e-budokai.com/exhibit/index.htm)

You can also e-mail me at don@e-budokai.com if you have any special questions. My web site at e-budokai.com (http://www.e-budokai.com) also has other information about jutte and the feudal Japanese police.

BDW
18th April 2003, 19:55
sensei
Its an honor to finnaly talk with you your jutte skills come highly recomended in my dojo

ben wallace

Don Cunningham
18th April 2003, 21:01
Thank you for the compliment, but I am not a sensei of jutte waza. I'm just a regular person otherwise obsessed with the history and applications of this rather esoteric arresting implement.

Sochin
19th April 2003, 03:08
Try Jutte; japanese power-of-ten-hands waepon by George Kirby, a 1987 Ohara publication.

At 255 pages, it should compliment Don's stuff a lot.

BDW
19th April 2003, 18:40
My knowledge of the jutte is very limited but as far as I know it was used in partnership with two other martial arts one of the arts being being body arresting art, (taiho jitsu) and the other art being the art of binding your opponent in combat (hojo jitsu). I believe that the jutte was used to strike at vital points and de arm katana, tachi, etc, It is also my understanding I have yet to determine if this statement is valid that in Feudal Japan you were not allowed to seriusly injure your prisoner I say prisoner because the jutte was used by the Police.

domo arigato goziumusu
Ben Wallace

Richard Elias
20th April 2003, 01:45
"...in Feudal Japan you were not allowed to seriusly injure your prisoner..."

You could injure him but not kill or "mortally" wound him. In addition to "vital points" the jutte was also used to strike bony areas such as the wrist, clavicle, and shins, (which would sometimes break) and also in joint locks throws and controlling techniques. These all may be used to disable the bad guy without killing him.

The jutte was also used in groups, that is, several jutte wielding persons surrounding a swordsman, and in combination with other tools such as the mitsu doju. Though many were never intended to be used or were carried by those who had no training in their use. They were sometimes carried as symbols of their rank and authority. The different colors of tassel, and sometimes wrapping on the handle, denoted different ranks.Some even concealed single shot pistols and stiletto-type daggers.

In addition to the books mentioned above, Don Angier produces a video on the history and use of jutte and tessen as taught in Shidare Yanagi ryu. (and also two on the aforementioned hojojutsu)
These are avaiable through Bugei @ www.bugei.com

BDW
20th April 2003, 02:38
on average how long was the jutte because I dont see how it could be used for joint locks-come alongs-pain compaince. because in my experience yet again limited I learned that you need a lever to lock someone up

Richard Elias
20th April 2003, 05:05
I would say the "average" was around 1 shaku, just less than the western foot. Thus they fell under the category of tetsu-shaku weapons. But, I have seen examples ranging from about 8 inches to 3 feet long.

As far as joint locks, come alongs, and pain compliance techniques, you can use something as small as a mag-light or a pen to apply such things. Ever heard of the "kuboton" that was popular a few years back? It was only 6" long.

My teacher has the habit of carrying a pen clipped to the inside collar of his t-shirt, which he seems to be able to use to good effect.

There are many types of "locks" and not all require large levers or movements. Some are virtually imperceptible until they make you fall. It all really depends on the repertoire of the style you do.

BDW
22nd April 2003, 23:00
I have trained with the kobaton and happen to carry mine around with me every day. The only joint compression techniques I learned were an arm bar and wrist lock. I personally have never seen nage waza done with this tool.

Richard Elias
23rd April 2003, 04:51
Keep an open mind.

Because one doesn't know it, hasn't been taught it, or hasn't seen it, does not mean that is doesn't exist.

BDW
24th April 2003, 03:46
has anyone on this forum ever seen throws done with the kobaton ?

Richard Elias
24th April 2003, 15:55
I suppose you mean other than me, right?

Seen them... done them.

Using a kuboton, jutte, tessen, kobo, police baton, even a knife are all related (depending on the system you practice) and if you can do a technique with one you can, presumably, also do it with one of the others. In our system we have throws done with all of these.

Of course, I am not talking about the standardised techniques in the kuboton training manual.

Don Cunningham
24th April 2003, 16:14
I've only read a couple of books on the kubotan and have looked at some research on the use of yawara-bo, so I am not an expert. However, I think most of the throws using these short implements are based on using them to grip. For example, there is a throw sort of like judo's sasae-tsurikomi-ashi. The foot work is the same, but instead of tori gripping uke's sleeve or lapel with the pulling hand, the yawara-bo is used to hook behind uke's neck. Once hooked, uke is pulled forward and off-balance while tori blocks uke's foot. Of course, tori uses his left hand to grip uke's other sleeve or arm.

I've seen some variations on kote-gaeshi, too, in which the yawara-bo is used to lock uke's wrist. We don't do much kote-gaeshi in judo, so I am not all that familiar with the throw.

The following comment may not have much to do with the original post, but I am just tickled pink and felt the need to share. :D I just received a great Edo period jutte with a fantastic tsuba from a dealer in Japan this morning. I've been looking for a good one of these rare type jutte for years. The ones I've found previously were either way too expensive or in terrible shape.

If anyone is interested, I could post some photos. It will definitely be in my next book, too.

Walker
24th April 2003, 17:06
Yeah, jutte photos of course!

Another theory on the use of the kobotan and other similar instruments - presented here just for contrast for those who don’t believe in all of that complex stuff (i.e. jujutsuing is hard :p ) - is using it to bash the opponent silly then pushing them over when they’re out of it. :D

John Anderson
25th April 2003, 01:04
Originally posted by Don Cunningham
Tanemura sensei of the Genbukan also teaches some authentic traditional jutte waza in his curriculum. I would avoid any of the other ninja groups, though. I've seen their jutte techniques and they have very little in common with koryu and appear to be fabricated.


Don,

Something doesn't add up here - if you think that Hatsumi Sensei should be avoided because his art is fabricated, why did you try to get him to write the foreword to your book?

Don Cunningham
25th April 2003, 15:52
John,

I first became interested in jutte over 20 years ago. Back in 1983 or '84, some of my judo friends suggested I see Hatsumi performing a demo. I think it was at the American Club in Tokyo, but my memory is a bit fuzzy. Anyway, I talked to him for about 30 minutes afterwards, explaining my new found interest in jutte. He told me some things and discussed his own collection. I've since been able to confirm the historical accuracy of most of that from other independent sources.

I also read his book in Japanese on jutte. There is also a book he colloborated on about stick fighting that includes some jutte waza. This all appears, in my opinion, to be historically accurate. In 1999, I wrote to Hatsumi, explaining my book project and asked if he would be interested in providing a short introduction. After publication, I sent him and others a complimentary copy. I never heard back from him in either case.

Since then, I bought a copy of his video on jutte. For the most part, the techniques shown in the video have no basis in practical koryu bujutsu. Many of them are more similar to that seen in chambara. Although entertaining, chambara is about as historically accurate as our own popular Westerns television series. I don't think Texas Rangers rode about the Ol' West wearing masks and using silver bullets, either. The premise of his video is even ridiculous. There is no historical evidence supporting the idea that ninja carried jutte.

Although the video is entertaining and serves the intended purpose, that is, marketing to those with adolescent ninja fantasies, it appears to be mostly fabricated techniques. Even at that, it's still better than jutte techniques I've seen presented by some of his students and the followers of other ninjutsu groups.

My opinion on the validity of the jutte waza is based on my own historical research and I stand by that. My opinion of Hatsumi's character is more subjective and has been more influenced by recent disclosures. I've met many of the Bujinkan members on this and other forums, and with a few exceptions, I've found them to be morally bankrupt and rather immature. I've also heard some second-hand information that Hatsumi expresses support for xenophobic and racist sentiments. There are rather convincing allegations that the Bujinkan has dubious associations with other groups. Hatsumi has obviously sanctioned the head of Juko-Kai, International, to open their own Bujinkan division, for example.

I find their employment of cult-like control techniques to be particularly disturbing. It is based around one central charismatic individual who defines their reality. Members are obviously not allowed to question or doubt the organization's leadership, much less examine any critical information. Like many cults, it attracts addictive and codependent members who share similar traits. After joining, they are indoctrinated to the point they rationalize or accept otherwise negative influences.

Hatsumi's followers frequently speak of him with undeniable reverence. His strongest proponents display obvious paranoid behavior, viewing outsiders as enemies, especially anyone critical of their leader's viewpoints or their own distorted historical outlook.

Did I offer to include a few introductory words from Hatsumi in my first book? Yes. Would I do it again, knowing what I know now? No.

On a side note, I have also purchased a video by Tanemura sensei. He presents several jutte techniques, although many of them have been slightly modified. The really important part is that the video is presented as modern baton, specifically expandable baton, self-defense techniques, not as koryu bujutsu.

Walker
25th April 2003, 18:42
Yes, I was having a bit of fun with the idea of modern military combat gutter pen - especially the mock presidential “Jujutsuing is hard” which I still think is hilarious (say it to yourself with a bad Texas accent for full effect.)

poryu
25th April 2003, 19:43
Hi donn

interesting comment regarding ninja carrying Jutte. It is quite possible that you are most correct here. But who really knows.

I have a few questions for you based on your post.

1. having muself just now finsihed listening to the whole video and going through translation on paper of the video, I found I could not hear any mention of ninja anywhere on the video. My question her eis who says this video has anything to do with ninja and that hastumi is portraying the video as ninja video techniques

2. Are you a practioner of any form of Koryu jutte

3. are you familiar with any of the forms Hatsumi and his students demonstrate on that video and are you familiar with the background of any of the ryu these forms come from

4. Can you please identify for me (and everyone else) at least one jutte kata on that video that anyone in the Bujinkan would regard as a 100% ninja jutte technique.

Thanks in advance for your time in answering these questions

Don Cunningham
25th April 2003, 21:06
Paul,

We may not be discussing the same video. The one I referred to was by Quest videos and included English subtitles. The opening and closing sequences showed Hatsumi dressed as a ninja and fighting off a number of swordsmen at night. During the entire video, he wore a shirt with the words ninja or ninjutsu on it. As for historical accuracy, the techniques showed a number of ways of concealing a jutte before employing it. Yet, the Edo machi juttenin were required to prominently display their implement of office when making an arrest. There were a number of other flaws, but I don't care to make a point-by-point critique. Finally, why would ninja carry an implement indicating they are Tokugawa shogunate representatives and inspectors? (Please spare me any nonsense about some sort of ninja disguise, etc.) There are many who really know, this is not just my opinion.

As for my own background and familiarity with various ryu that incorporate jutte, I covered all that in my book. It is also mentioned on the Amazon.com web site and many other interviews in magazines, online articles, etc. I expect a lot of heat from the Bujinkan members of this forum for expressing my opinions, but I refuse to get involved in a flame war over this.

Peter Carlsson
25th April 2003, 22:44
I usually don't post on this forum anymore, but Don Cunningham has certainly done what he could to deserve some heat...

You are entitled to have an opinion on the juttejutsu of Hatsumi sensei. I don't object on that, but since you start to write that most of the information you received during your first encounter were proven more or less correct, then it might have been a good idea to get some additional info when you noticed that the video was not what you had expected. I can hardly imagine that Hatsumi sensei did forget everything he knew about jutte and juttejutsu in those years. I'll leave that because that's up to you. What I did react on was the following:


Originally posted by Don Cunningham
My opinion on the validity of the jutte waza is based on my own historical research and I stand by that. My opinion of Hatsumi's character is more subjective and has been more influenced by recent disclosures. I've met many of the Bujinkan members on this and other forums, and with a few exceptions, I've found them to be morally bankrupt and rather immature. I've also heard some second-hand information that Hatsumi expresses support for xenophobic and racist sentiments. There are rather convincing allegations that the Bujinkan has dubious associations with other groups. Hatsumi has obviously sanctioned the head of Juko-Kai, International, to open their own Bujinkan division, for example.


This is a bunch of unfounded slander and has nothing to do with the topic of juttejutsu (and since the moderator has let it go, I hope my post will be left standing too). You have had some negative experience of some people in the Bujinkan. Ok, but to start mudslinging like this, against the whole group? That is what I call immature.

First, your little love-affair with the Juko-kai. There has been a lot of people trying to tell you that it's a one-person affiliation. That one person in Bujinkan in Canada has a personal relation to the head of Juko-kai, and that he managed to get a honorary degree or diploma for the head of the Juko-kai. I can tell you that most of the Bujinkan people I know, feel very embarassed over this, especially since the television show at Discovey was shown, and we were starting to get phone-calls about how we could have an affiliation with that lot. And you know what? Most of the people referred to your statement at e-budo about the affiliation. They had not heard about it any other way, so thank you very much for creating a problem for us who do not recognize this affiliation (which, for what I know is the most part of Bujinkan outside the Canadian Brotherhood).

Second, you bring up "second-hand information" that Hatsumi sensei supports racism and xenophobic ideas. It has nothing to do with juttejutsu, and should have been left out of this discussion completely. This is the most serious slander you have done. If you would have taken the time to read the Bujinkan rules on www.bujinkan.com, you would most probably understand that this is the most false rumour that has ever been stated about the Bujinkan. The guidelines says the following:

"7. The tradition of the Bujinkan recognizes nature and the universality of all human life, and is aware of that which flows naturally between the two parts:

•"The secret principle of Taijutsu is to know the foundations of peace.

•To study is the path to the immovable heart (fudoshin)."

Recently, the Bujinkan has become truly international. Just as there are various time zones, so exist various taboos among the world's peoples and nations. We must respect each other, striving to avoid such taboos. We must put the heart of the warrior first, working together for self-improvement and for the betterment of the Bujinkan."

Hatsumi sensei has always been very openminded towards all kind of people, races, sex etc. etc. etc. He states in the guidelines that you are not supposed to make problems for the Bujinkan in Japan, and I can understand that, since one of my friends had to sit on a person a whole night and then help bring the person to mental hospital in Japan, because this person had a serious breakdown. Unfortunately this kind of things have happened, people visiting Noda-shi in Japan have misbehaved and caused a lot of problem for Hatsumi sensei. More than once, the police have called Hatsumi sensei in the middle of the night to "inform" him or get his help to handle people, because they know the foreigners are there to train with Hatsumi sensei.

Third, you asked Hatsumi sensei to write a foreword for your book. Unfortunately, I have not read your book, but I will the first time I get the opportunity. I can only say that, the experience I have from visiting Hatsumi sensei, he gets buckloads of mail, requests etc. every day. It might have slipped past his attention. Tought luck, but why start having personal grudges because of that? I have written persons without getting answers, but I don't start to hate them because of that...

You are of course entitled to have an opinion about Bujinkan too, and even dislike it. I don't care about that. But to slander with lies, half-truths and personal grudges, just to make the whole Bujinkan look bad. That is way over the limit. You have explained that you don't like the Juko-kai, but still you continue to disregard Bujinkan-people, even if they try to explain that they do not have any, nor want any affiliation with the Juko-kai. You write about second-hand information but don't even check out first hand information about actual rules and guidelines. Please, if you want to write negative about Bujinkan...do so, BUT do it with fact and not with personal opinions!!!

Best regards

Peter Carlsson
Malmö Taijutsuklubb - Bujinkan Dojo
Sweden

Alex Meehan
25th April 2003, 22:56
Hi All,

I am not that keen to get involved in another epic public Internet brawl concerning Mr Cunningham’s ideas about the Bujinkan. That said, I would like to draw attention to the following quote from Mr Cunningham, taken from his post above:

“Since then, I bought a copy of his video on jutte. For the most part, the techniques shown in the video have no basis in practical koryu bujutsu. Many of them are more similar to that seen in chambara. Although entertaining, chambara is about as historically accurate as our own popular Westerns television series. I don't think Texas Rangers rode about the Ol' West wearing masks and using silver bullets, either.”

“Although the video is entertaining and serves the intended purpose, that is, marketing to those with adolescent ninja fantasies, it appears to be mostly fabricated techniques.”

I would like to point out that in personal correspondence to me via e-mail, dated April 18th 2002 Mr Cunningham made the following allegation:

“I did see the jutte video that Hatsumi sensei produced and many of the kamae and techniques are unique and directly from Masaki Ryu.”

So either he was lying when he accused Hatsumi Sensei of stealing Masaaki Ryu techniques, or he has dramatically reassessed his opinion of Masaaki Ryu in the year since he wrote this.

While we are on the subject, the Jutte waza in the Bujinkan come directly from Kukishinden Ryu, a school with multiple branches in existence widely accepted as koryu. These techniques have nothing to do with ninjutsu or Ninpo, other than they are taught alongside these ideas and waza in the Bujinkan Dojo.

“I also read his book in Japanese on jutte. There is also a book he colloborated on about stick fighting that includes some jutte waza. This all appears, in my opinion, to be historically accurate.”

Mr Cunningham seems confused either way. I would also like to draw attention to the following quote:

“I've also heard some second-hand information that Hatsumi expresses support for xenophobic and racist sentiments. There are rather convincing allegations that the Bujinkan has dubious associations with other groups.”

To Mr Cunningham I ask this: you have said that at one point you derived your living as a journalist. Would you be comfortable publishing this in print under your by-line? Would you like to be accused of racism from an unnamed second-hand source?

I presume as a fellow member of the media that you understand the importance of confirming stories from at least two additional sources if you don’t have incontrovertible documented evidence don’t you?

In the legal jurisdiction I live in, these are libellous allegations. You are sure about this, aren’t you? If so, you will have no problem providing proof that would satisfy a third party. If you do not have proof, you should retract this upsetting statement immediately.

As to the substance of your allegation, to quote again “Hatsumi expresses support for xenophobic and racist sentiments” What are you talking about here, anyway? Do you really think Hatsumi Sensei is a racist? We are talking about a man with a martial arts organisation that has far more foreigners in it than Japanese. The very senior ranks are occupied by as many westerners as Japanese – is this the kind of policy you would expect from a bigot?

To John Lindsay, I would like to ask the following. Are you happy to have allegations of this nature made on your board? As a publisher, you are responsible for the content that you allow to appear here, and if this was a printed publication in the legal jurisdiction I live in, you would be dangling over a precipice right know

Mr Cunningham, you are entitled to your opinion on the Bujinkan, but as a fellow journalist I have been horrified at the lack of professional standards you have displayed in your character assassination of the Bujinkan. I would have been fired multiple times if I displayed the sloppy attitude to factual analysis that you have.

Alex Meehan
Bujinkan Shidoshi

Don Cunningham
25th April 2003, 23:33
If I can get this file to attach, here's the photos as promised.

Rennis
26th April 2003, 01:13
Originally posted by Don Cunningham

There are some Shibakawa-ryu practitioners training somewhere around Kyoto, but they're sort of difficult to find. Like many other martial arts styles, Shibakawa-ryu originally included a lot of jutte waza. I don't know if they still practice with jutte, though. Most of the other styles discontinued jutte training sometime after the Edo period and it is very rare to even find current instructors still familiar with their own jutte curriculum.


Shibukawa ryu still does jittejutsu. About three years ago I saw one of those typical Japan late night tv variety shows where they were trying figure out how to actually use a real jitte. They ended up at a Shibukawa ryu dojo, had a demonstration of techniques from the ryu and then put one of the "tarento" in a Frankenstein mixture of kendo, football and hockey armor, gave him a bokuto and had him attack one of the of Shibukawa ryu guys armed with a jitte. The Shibukawa ryu practitioner's kiai alone almost scared the guy from the show to the point where he couldn't move. The last contact info I can find for them shows a couple dojo in Osaka, although the info might be out of date by now.

For what it is worth,
Rennis Buchner

Walker
26th April 2003, 09:02
Cool. Nice find.

George Kohler
26th April 2003, 10:45
As requested by Paul and Alex, thread was restored to original state.

Alex Meehan
26th April 2003, 10:56
George,

I did not request that the thread be reinstated. I asked was it right that Mr Cunningham be allowed to make the allegations he did without being held accountable. That is not the same thing.

By deleting the thread without explaining why, you let him off the hook. That was my point. I don't wish to see the original allegations left intact.

Alex Meehan
Dublin, Ireland

Don Cunningham
26th April 2003, 16:59
I was asked why my opinion had obviously changed. That is what I responded to here. I am certainly entitled to my opinion, and that is exactly what I posted. Nothing posted in response has changed that. If anything, it only confirms my original concerns about his strongest proponents paranoid behavior, viewing outsiders as enemies, especially anyone critical of their leader's viewpoints or their own distorted historical outlook.

Nothing I've written here has been slanderous or libelous. As a former journalist, I am quite aware of the difference between legitimate criticism and libel. On the other hand, the unfounded comments I've seen posted in this forum by Bujinkan members about me being a liar, coward, etc., are definitely libelous. Funny how they like to throw accusations out when they feel free to do exactly what they complain about against others.

I agree that many of the jutte techniques in the video appear to be from Masaki Ryu. No wonder, Hatsumi and Nawa sensei are friends and I believe Hatsumi trained with him for some period. That doesn't mean the many other jutte techniques shown, especially the ninja stuff, is historically accurate or based on any koryu. The Juko-Kai affiliation is self evident. Instead of telling us how it is not true, why doesn't the Bujinkan demand Juko-Kai retract their public statements of being sanctioned by Hatsumi?

Again, I refuse to get involved in more name-calling tactics.

Regarding Shibakawa Ryu, I may have been mistaken about them being based in Kyoto. Osaka does sound right. I've only seen demos, but have not been able to directly contact any Shibakawa Ryu practitioners for the same reasons stated previously. If they do practice jutte jutsu, I believe they may be the only legitimate koryu martial art style. Ikkaku Ryu was incorporated into Shindo Muso Ryu, I believe, and although they have a jutte kata, very few SMR practitioners still teach it.

Alex Meehan
26th April 2003, 17:31
Mr Cunningham,

Can you please explain how Hatsumi Sensei can be reasonably described as a racist, given that so many different nationalities train in the Bujinkan?

Alex Meehan
Dublin, Ireland

TehPeoplePesron
26th April 2003, 17:32
Dear Don:

I remember a while back, I attended one of your seminars on ancient weapons. In this seminar, we covered Japannese traditions, mainly Samurai traditions. Jutte: its techniques and history. And another tool I forget the name for. It was the police tool for binding. It was the rope bound in the middle, and in and approxamite "figure 8". I was wondering if you could kindly refresh my memory of the name of this tool and if you know of any sources of information (ie: books, videos, websites) on it.

Many Thanks

Don Cunningham
26th April 2003, 20:33
The item you described is referred to as a torihimo (arresting cord) or torinawa (arresting rope). It is one form. Torihimo can take many different forms and lengths. Some used barbs or hooks in one end. Some used loops in each end. The reported lengths vary from around 9 feet to 27 feet, depending on the style and school. Even the type of rope used is variable. Some used hemp, while others used silk, although there is some thought the silk ropes were more for practice since they apparently are easy to slip knots.

The only books I know of on the subject are in Japanese. Don Angier sensei has done a series of hojojutsu videos, although I don't think he uses the shorter torihimo. His videos are excellent. If anything, there's too much detail presented. I had trouble keeping up with all the different techniques he shows. I think the videos are still available through Bugei.

There is also a video available from BAB on the Tenouchi. The instructor uses a torihimo connected to a yawara-bo. The video is in Japanese, but it is quite understandable. I've seen it sold on eBay or through Tozando. E-mail me at don@e-budokai.com if you have trouble locating them.

As regards the Bujinkan and their leadership, I refuse to get into further discussions on this subject. If you don't want to read my opinion, then you shouldn't ask for it. I hold no grudge against the Bujinkan or their members, even though many of them have resorted to unsubstantiated personal attacks and name calling tactics on this forum. Many others have proven to be upstanding individuals. I guess the bad apples are just more vocal.

TehPeoplePesron
26th April 2003, 22:57
Many thanks Don

sepai 85
26th April 2003, 23:39
I am going to have to go with don and Briggs on this one guys. I know don has many years of training and experience and is one of the more respected and recomended historians on the use of the jutte in Feudal Japan as well as knowing a fair bit about body arresting techniques. As for the Buginkan and Hatsumi sensei I dont see how we need to debate its relevance to jutte jitsu at this present time considering there specialty is ninjitsu.

George Kohler
26th April 2003, 23:54
Joe Somebody,

You need to sign your posts with your real full name. It is E-Budo policy. If you continue to post without your real name, your posts will be deleted.

John Anderson
28th April 2003, 01:04
Originally posted by sepai 85
As for the Buginkan and Hatsumi sensei I dont see how we need to debate its relevance to jutte jitsu at this present time considering there specialty is ninjitsu.

No offence is intended here, but the above statement shows that you have little understanding of the Bujinkan and of some of the issues here.....

It is a fact that Hatsumi Sensei is the Soke of Kukishin Ryu and as such, he is head of an authentic Japanese Ryu which has as part of it's curriculum Jutte Jutsu. Don is well aware of this fact too which is why he tried to get Hatsumi Sensei to write the foreword to his book, presumably, in the hope that the association with Hatsumi Sensei with his book would result in more sales. Despite this knowledge, Don feels fit to come on a public forum and state that Hatsumi Sensei does not teach "authentic" Jutte.

If you look back through the thread, you will see that Don was the first person to refer to Hatsumi Sensei and when questioned about his comments, he also went on to launch a personal and apparently libelous attack on him based as he admits himself, on second hand rumour. When he was then asked specific questions about his slander Don then stated that he refused to discuss the Bujinkan any further, despite the fact that it was he who brought the subject up in the first place. This to me smacks of somebody who cannot defend their position - hardly the actions of a "respected" researcher/historian.

Don's comments about Hatsumi Sensei's Jutte Jutsu are contradictory. By his own admission, he states that the information which Hatsumi gave to him in conversation has been verified as accurate, he also states that Hatsumi's books are accurate. However, Hatsumi has released a video called "Jutte Jutsu for martial artists" which, rather unsurprisingly, is an introduction to the Jutte for martial artists. Now this video does not claim to show Koryu Jutte techniques (although it does show some Kukishin ones), in fact, it is made clear by the way that the tape is presented that it mainly shows variations of unarmed Taijutsu techniques done with the Jutte. Despite the fact that this is made pretty explicit on the tape, Don choses to ignore this and call Hatsumi a fraud because a tape which was never intended to show Koryu Jutte techniques doesn't show Koryu Jutte techniques. Yet when Mr Tanemura apparently does the same (Going by Don's account as I haven't seen this tape) he is held up by Don as an good example to us all - this is an amazing line of logical arguement for a "respected" researcher to take. His attacks on this tape contradicts themselves further as he claims that the techniques demonstrated are based on Masaki Ryu and yet at the same time, he also claims that they have absolutely no basis in Koryu Bujutsu! Can someone please explain to me how technique which Don claims are based on a Koryu can have no basis in Koryu techniques? Logic doesn't seem to be his strong point.

This brings us to the reason why Don keeps on whining about the Bujinkan. Personally, I believe that it stems from the fact that he feels personally snubbed by Hatsumi Sensei. The history of this incident, from Don's various accounts is as follows. Don writes a book and he wants Hatsumi Sensei to write a foreword for it. Now you can make up your own mind as to why he would want Hatsumi Sensei, a teacher with which he has no real link to write a forword but I think the obvious reason is $$$$$. So Don writes a letter to Hatsumi asking for a foreword. In the rules of the Bujinkan, it states clearly that all communication with Hatsumi Sensei must be in Japanese. The reason for this is simple, it's his native language and the only one (as far as I am aware) that he is actually able to read. Now Don claims to be quite fluent in Japanese and he's writing to a Japanese speaker to ask a favour, so what language do you think he would use out of common courtesy? Wrong, he writes to Hatsumi Sensei in English, presumably expecting him to go to the trouble of getting it translated himself. Ask yourself what you would do if you received an unsolicited letter from someone you didn't know, in a language you couldn't even read. Personally, I would throw it in the bin but Hatsumi didn't, he gave Don a second chance by passing it to one of his English speaking students who then wrote to Don explaining the rule about Japanese communication and it seems, offering to translate the letter for a standard translator's fee. This, to me seems fair enough, as English - Japanese translation services can be quite costly and Don was not even a Bujinkan member. Indeed, his whole reason for writing to Hatsumi in the first place seems to be motivated by the possibility of the financial gain from more booksales. However, Don seems to have taken the fact that Hatsumi couldn't be bothered to go to the trouble of arranging to translate this letter from someone he doesn't know as a snub and it seems to have really hurt his ego. The extent of this hurt is obvious from the fact that Don feels compelled to attack Hatsumi, a man who it appears, he had preciously held in some esteem, at any opportunity he gets.

Don knows full well that the reason he didn't get an answer to his letter is simply that Hatsumi was unable to read it and yet he choses to present the situation, even in this thread as being Hatsumi's fault. It's ironic that as part of his slanderous attack on Hatsumi, Don calls him a xenophobe when Don's own actions demonstrate that he clearly has no respect for a member of another racial groups' own language and culture. So much for the respect due to Don.

Brently Keen
1st May 2003, 00:15
Nice find Don, thanks for posting the pics, I'm really feelingly envious now.

Brently

Brian Dunham
1st May 2003, 00:58
Here's my best jutte.

Don Cunningham
1st May 2003, 01:47
Nice! ;)

It's hard to tell much from the photo, but it looks to be in such good shape, I'm guessing this is a fairly recently made jutte.

Brian Dunham
2nd May 2003, 17:12
Yes,it is a modern reproduction, but nicer than most of the antiques I've seen. I got this from Mark Brecht before he vanished from E-Budo.

John Lindsey
18th November 2003, 23:23
http://www.budoshinjujitsu.org/JutteFeb2001.html

For your review.

Steve Delaney
18th November 2003, 23:52
Oh for the love of all that is holy!!! :rolleyes:

ghp
19th November 2003, 04:37
http://alcyone.cc.uch.gr/~kosmas/pics/bill.gif
Akkkkkk!!!

For those who don't know -- these kanji
http://www.budoshinjujitsu.org/Ju-Te-Characters.jpg
read: "Ju-te" and mean "flexible/soft hands."

The proper kanji are ?\ˇč , meaning "10 hands" [these kanji probably won't display properly when I post this message].

--Guy
"With soft hands like these, you'd never guess I wash dishes."

Steve Delaney
19th November 2003, 05:18
With Mild Green Fairy Liquid!! :D

Earl Hartman
20th November 2003, 01:08
Jutte - $50

Katana - $100

REALLY bad budo?

Priceless.

Mike B. Johnson
20th November 2003, 07:10
Guys,

Did you check out the rest of the site?

Oh my God!

BJ.

Steve Delaney
20th November 2003, 07:26
Yup, it's quite dire.

MarkF
20th November 2003, 09:34
How can you go wrong with O sensei Harold Brosius.


Mark

Soulend
20th November 2003, 11:36
BWAHAHAHA...that site is a riot from beginning to end!

Steve Delaney
20th November 2003, 14:04
I just saw the reast of that site

*Puts head in hand and shakes head*

Earl Hartman
20th November 2003, 19:30
I looked through the rest of the site, but all I saw were a bunch of group photos and kids walking on peoples' stomachs.

Seemed pretty harmless, if dumb, but I didn't see any really egregious nonsense (other than the 11th dan shihan thing and stuff like that).

MarkF
22nd November 2003, 12:30
Yes, you can look at it like that. That particular site isn't bad, nor is the person behind it all, George Kirby. Some people believe Kirby to be "the end" when it comes to weapons knowledge and you will find his name in footnotes or his books mentioned in others' bibliographies.

On the other hand, go the http://budoshin.com , read the entire site including the "store (where you by your membership)." Prices seem hardly out of sight, but as you read, you will end up spending thousands on all the merchandise Kirby has on sale. His books, I'm sure, are required reading, as are his video tapes (and I suspect, CDs, DVDs too, these days).

He was recently (less than two years ago) graded to 10-dan. Now if you are wondering how someone or something could grade someone to 10-dan in something he created, he was given the 10-dan by the AJA (American Ju Jitsu Association). For a time, we had the same teacher, Jack Seki (real name, Jack Haywood, taking on the name, Zanzo Zeki [Seki], as he was hapa).

That was more than thirty years ago, and it lasted for one year, for me, but it was at that time that Zeki, a member of Nanka Yudanshakai, and legitimate credentials as a sandan in Kodokan judo, and he was good when he centered on that and that alone. I mean he "centered."

At around that time, Kirby was setting up his own jujutsu school and eventually his own style (Budoshin) of jujutsu, or ju jitsu). George is a very nice man, he now teaches at my high school alma mater, US Grant High School in the Van Nuys area of Los Angeles County. Next door was Valley Jr. College (San Fernando Valley JC), where Seki once had his dojo. He said he taught ju jitsu, was national ju jitsu champion for fifteen years straight, but not one technique he taught me was not found in the judo syllabus. He just taught them in a different order, ukemi was learned on one's own, or before class from senior students (many of his BBs were pretty much thugs).

Back to the 10-dan and the AJA awarding it to George. The strange thing here is that he is the CEO and Chairman of the Board of Directors of the AJA, an organization in which membership is mandatory, I think at sankyu.

He will teach by audio/video "if there is no legitimate ju jitsu dojo near you" but one must attend, I believe, a minimum of two seminars per year where your grade will be made permanent. This means he will grade you based on a video, but he does want to meet you, but at a price. This is where the bucks start adding up. He also sends an audio tape or CD criticizing/teaching the correct way of doing the waza you sent him. It is all in the handbook, another item in the store. He claims the video is just a tool, but if you have a dojo, and there are many more around the country and the world (The AJA is associated with the JJIF), I suppose teaching just doesn't pay the bills anymore.

That's pretty much all you need to know, you've probably seen "the best." I do separate Jack Seki from George Kirby this way. In the year I spent training with Seki, the cost was five dollars per quarter year, or twenty dollars per year. If you just wanted mat time or to take a class from time to time, he charged $1.25 for it. That's it, no cost, no entrance fees I know of for tournaments, because back then, the only organization I had heard of was the CBJJF or "California Branch: Ju Jitsu Federation." Shortly after I started training there (my dojo had closed, and at the time, I lived across the street), Jack announced he was godan, toward the end of my time with Seki, he claimed 8-dan, and I was gone.

My next judo teacher was my first teacher's teacher. His English was broken, having learned nearly all of it, by ear, but Ota Tokuo "Bob" Sensei put it just like this when I said I had been training there with Seki: "He is nathing. You sandan here, you sandan there. You no sandan here, godan there, you sandan, you sandan." I didn't even want to bring up the hachidan thing at that point. Understand, this man, Ota Tokuo was Japanese. He didn't mean "He was nothing." He wouldn't say that about anyone. He was speaking only of his, Seki's, rank inflation plus he had never heard of the CBJJF. He was Nanka through and through, a godan when I met him, who knows what when he passed away, but recently at a Jr. National Tourament here, most of the upper ranks of the USJI, knew him, and knew him well. He sure kept that a secret, except that he worked nearly every tournament I ever entered, as shinban, mostly.

Anyway, that is the biggest difference between Seki and Kirby. Kirby is in it for what he can get while maintaining a nice guy appearance. I'm sure it was real, I'm just not sure of a lot of things he says. Seki, perhaps the hachidan was the most important thing to him, and Kirby says he died as a 9-dan "Hanshi." It is almost surely a post-mortem award, the 9-dan and Hanshi, and the 9-dan is certainly possible, though he had to retire in 1980 due to smoking-related illness; emphysema. He passed away in 1998 in a nursing home. Many of his students built web sites in his honor, and he was generally a tough man on the mat. Off the mat, however, he was a funny, nice and humble man which really throws you a curve, as he doesn't talk about any of the questionable stuff afterward, only during a class or other event he sponsored.

This will be the last thing I say online about George Kirby, but considering his main teacher, the rank is understandable, but the expenses and grade are not. As I indicated, the items, all by themselves, are not expensive, but considering most students will buy nearly everything, at least those who have been with him for more than a year will.

As Earl Said, it could be a lot worse (or he intimated that), it isn't all that bad, certainly not the worst you will ever see, and of 10-dan and Soke, his is a whole spot better. It still leaves many questions to answer, and if you do question his motives, you will get it back in kind. In fact, we had spoken various times a couple of years ago, and had decided that he couldn't convince me of the value of video as a tool (this was based on long-distance teaching, the use of video can help one along if one has a good teacher as well. That wasn't in question), and I couldn't convince him that long distance teaching is, for the most part, useless. My claim is that there are people out there who will sign up with him because all they have to do is produce a video now and then instead of going down the road to the judo dojo, or other gendai jujutsu dojo near them with a dojo and everything, will be wanting that video taught earned grade of shodan (I forgot, he does charge for the long distance grading, more than if you were at his dojo).

So we agreed to disagree, but I sometimes wonder the personality of his graded students and he has a lot of them.

OK, now I've said all I'm ever going to say on George Kirby. I've said enough. I won't comment further, but I knew him then and I know him now.


Mark

[apologies for the length of this post]

Jonathan
5th December 2003, 05:18
Originally posted by MarkF
Yes, you can look at it like that. That particular site isn't bad, nor is the person behind it all, George Kirby. Some people believe Kirby to be "the end" when it comes to weapons knowledge and you will find his name in footnotes or his books mentioned in others' bibliographies.


As Earl Said, it could be a lot worse (or he intimated that), it isn't all that bad, certainly not the worst you will ever see, and of 10-dan and Soke, his is a whole spot better. It still leaves many questions to answer, and if you do question his motives, you will get it back in kind. In fact, we had spoken various times a couple of years ago, and had decided that he couldn't convince me of the value of video as a tool (this was based on long-distance teaching, the use of video can help one along if one has a good teacher as well. That wasn't in question), and I couldn't convince him that long distance teaching is, for the most part, useless. My claim is that there are people out there who will sign up with him because all they have to do is produce a video now and then instead of going down the road to the judo dojo, or other gendai jujutsu dojo near them with a dojo and everything, will be wanting that video taught earned grade of shodan (I forgot, he does charge for the long distance grading, more than if you were at his dojo).

So we agreed to disagree, but I sometimes wonder the personality of his graded students and he has a lot of them.

[apologies for the length of this post]

Thanks for the info. I have been wondering about Mr. Kirby since perhaps the late 80's (?) when BB Mag had an ad of his with the caption; "Correspond with Mr. Kirby and earn you black belt in jujitsu." His personal skills are probably, relatively good - but how can you master a grappling art via video? As far as I know, he was the first of the video testers.

There is one group that uses video testing well, or at least the couple I've met who've been in the system are proficient and that is the Karate Connection. They teach a simplified Kenpo karate system. However, I must say that the two I met were already black belts in karate before beginning the program and did not test via video for bb, rather in person. They chose the system to expand their horizons and give them a more flexible organization to run their school under.

I think this (Karate Connection) is one of the few exceptions. Most "rank by video" org's are diploma mills. Also, learning a striking art via video, particularly if you are already a bb in a striking art, has got to be much more realistic than learning any type of grappling system by video.

khameleon59
28th January 2009, 23:51
I am a big fan of the JUTTE. I am in no way a professional in using the Jutte. I have never trained with a SAI before. I would assume that the techniques or the uses would be similar.
Which do you prefer and why?