PDA

View Full Version : Pure Shotokan and the clinch



RobertoK
27th April 2003, 14:18
I may be one of the few BJJ stylists that truly admirer Shotokan karate's ability to score explosive KO's fast and effectively. The direct-line approach makes this style devastating, in my opinion, for big powerful guys yet is lacking for the thin, feeble types like me. Now my question, if the Shotokan fighter somehow misses in his truck-like forward approach to score a KO and the opponent closes the distance and latches to him in a takedown-potential clinch, what does the karateka do? Also, I have witness that when a Shotokan fighter somehow sweeps or drops the opponent to the ground, he just tries to finish the fallen man by a single punch or kick yelling "kiaiiii"...do you guys think this is actually effective at all? I mean the fast KO's by closing the distance are great and all but what about the clinch and ground game. Is there a side of Shotokan I havent seen? Thank you.

Harry Cook
27th April 2003, 17:48
I think if the karateka goes to the ground and he has little or no experience there then he is in trouble. As for your second question " Also, I have witness that when a Shotokan fighter somehow sweeps or drops the opponent to the ground, he just tries to finish the fallen man by a single punch or kick yelling "kiaiiii"...do you guys think this is actually effective at all?" let me tell you about an actual case. A few years ago I was teaching in the Republic of Ireland with a few of my dan grades along as assistants. During an otherwise peaceful evening out one of the local lads decided that the young lady accompanying one of my nidans was his for the choosing. This led to some heated words, and the local took a swing. He was instantly swept and stamped on. One of my other dan grades (a policeman) then said "I think he's dead" as there was no movement or activity from the attacker. a few minutes later he came to and everything was Ok except one of his friends decided to join in and he was grabbed and removed from the premises by the bouncers.
Going to the ground and grappling has its place, but in the kind of scenario I've mentioned above, it could be foolish, if the man you are grappling with has friends who decide to join in. Gaining the top position and all that kind of thing may mean that you get a chair, boot, or bottle wrapped around the side of your head. From my experience of Shotokan the intent is to get it over with as quickly as possible. It is also interesting to note that people like Fairbairn and other military close quater battle teachers taught a similar approach; ground fighting in a battle was seen as too dangerous. leaving you vulnerable to attack.
however I think that karateka should practice against being dragged to the ground, especially female karateka. They need to learn how to escape and get back on their feet. I stress biting, gouging at the eyes and groin, bending fingers etc., in order to break free and escape.
Yours,
Harry Cook

Jay Vail
28th April 2003, 11:06
He was instantly swept and stamped on.

Harry, this is an interesting and useful story. Just a point of clarification: when you say "stamped" I assume that the finishing technique was with the foot. Is that correct? And what was the target?

JV

Goju Man
28th April 2003, 20:50
Harry, I think the scenario you wrote is an ideal scenario no matter what the style. Myself being a striker first, definitley don't want to be on the ground gtrappling. It is not a good situation to be in. Most of the time, a good stand up fighter will have his way, however, There are situations when the knoledge aquired from grappling will help you get out of a jam. I have a friend who is a bouncer at a local place, and though he is not a "grappler" he has a working knoledge of how and where to be and how to get out of there. I think it definitley can round out a fighter.

Ron Tisdale
28th April 2003, 21:24
I train in aikido with a 2nd dan in shotokan...I never want to be on the ground around him...in some informal practices, I've experienced the pound, sweep and stomp. Its not fun when you're on the recieving end. Now, he is a large and powerful guy...so maybe someone his size wouldn't find it as intimidating as I do. I'd prefer to run, myself.
:)
Ron Tisdale

PS I've heard tales of him handling 300 pounders (about 50 pounds over his weight), and he used aikido there...go figure.

RT

Harry Cook
29th April 2003, 10:00
Dear Mr. Vail,
it was with the heel of the foot landing on the chest.
Manny, I totally agree with you, it is very important to have a working knowledge of grappling, as the best laid plans...In fact we practise grappling quite a bit, but not to become grapplers. More to find ways to minimise a grappler's skills, especially for the women and girls I teach, and the lighter built men. If a strongly built man pulls a light girl to the ground her striking skills are almost totally neutralised - that is why I teach them to go for the eyes, bite the face, attack the groin etc, it may be the only chance they have.
Yours,
Harry Cook

Jay Vail
29th April 2003, 10:45
it was with the heel of the foot landing on the chest.

Harry, Thank you. A good place to strike. In our practice, all stamps have been to the head, which is a bad place to hit someone when they are down, legally speaking.

Jay Vail
29th April 2003, 10:49
If a strongly built man pulls a light girl to the ground her striking skills are almost totally neutralised - that is why I teach them to go for the eyes, bite the face, attack the groin etc, it may be the only chance they have.

This is sound advice for the smaller, weaker person on the ground. I would add the throat as well (probably included in the etc. :) !).

Harry Cook
29th April 2003, 16:33
Stamping on the head is a good battlefield tactic or when faced with something nasty like a knife or bottle (I am thinking of the likely legal outcome), but it could be counter-productive in a typical civilian self defense situation. In 1992 in the north-east of england a karate dan grade knocked out his attacker with a singler punch, but then grabbed his head and banged it on the ground. The attacker died and the black belt faced a charge of murder.
I agree that the throat is a good target if the attacker is relaxed to some degree, but a strong neck can be difficult to hurt. I prefer to concentrate on those targets which are difficult to condition such as the eyes, ears, fingers etc, but of course all targets of opportunity should be attacked.
I don't want to give the impression that I dislike grappling as such, but all sporting events (including UFC and similar) are predicated on a one on one situation, whereas we know that when a fight starts in can quickly escalate to involve friends, family, strangers etc etc. The best chance you have is to be mobile, which means staying on your feet.
Yours,
Harry Cook

RobertoK
29th April 2003, 21:21
Ive seen some Vale Tudo events where "soccer kicking" a downed opponent on the head was legal. Im talking about full penalty shot type of kick on the head. Many KO's came through this technique so I see how a strike to a downed opponent may end the fight BUT I have also seen Shotokan practitioners delivering a punch to the face, while yelling KIAI, and consider the match finished. Also, many unskilled fighters tend to "tackle" their opponent as soon as they perceive a fight comming on. I have seen this in Peru where a regular Joe went straight for the tackle and dropped a Karate brownbelt in a fight. The karate guy looked shocked when he hit the floor and didn't respond very well there. The karate guy got hit a couple of times in the face and the fight was stopped. I asked the unskilled guy if he did wrestling or any MAs and he said nope, never stepped on a mat or dojo. So here is another question, as the brownbelt may have lacked techniques only blackbelts and above know, what is a good shotokan response when taken down?

Harry Cook
29th April 2003, 22:57
It all depends which brand of Shotokan you look at. If you talking about the JKA instructors group and you looked at someone like Mikio Yahara then he would "punch, kick, bite, butt, gouge, and grapple" as Dave Hazard said of his time at the JKA.
However most Shotokan outside Japan does not make use of this approach, and many shotokan practitioners would be at a disadvantage on the ground, if they had never trained this way. Acquiring resonable grappling skills is not that difficult, especially if you concentrate on the going for the eyes, fingers, pulling hair, biting, gouging etc mentioned above.
Harry Cook

Jay Vail
30th April 2003, 09:53
I agree that the throat is a good target if the attacker is relaxed to some degree, but a strong neck can be difficult to hurt.

Can't disagree with anything you've said. On attacking the throat, however, I had in mind the trachea, which is unmuscled and vulnerable even on a big person to a simple finger poke, which I used more than once on the ground as a kid to escape. The hollow above the sterum is especially vulnerable. Pressing there is often like pressing the release on a seat belt. :)

adroitjimon
4th May 2003, 05:18
I am 8th. kyu in shoto kan and also 30 years of age,
5'9" ,160 lbs. I find it rediculous to use oizuki
shudan or godan in a real street fight as im not
that good of a puncher unless its for points.

This is my perspective on the clinch.

# 6 of Master Funakoshi's 20 precepts is
It is necessary to let KOKORO free ,(the mind).
Take a few hits just to see how hard they can hit,
because 9 times out of 10 the attacker will strike at the
head. So, if you ball up into a "Tornado drill" position
like a turtle you can actually take a break to plan an
effective counter attack. Another technique I use is
if they break what they use to attack with, their attack
is less effective .

In Shotokan the most important tools of self defense are
the twenty precepts of Master Gichin Funokoshi and the
Dojo Kum. In these you will find the wisdom to handle
every situation that comes your way.

Also in closing ,having a certain belt or rank in any
style does not guarantee the outcome of anything.
You either have it or you don't. adroitjimon...

Kimura
4th May 2003, 05:45
Being a former shotokan practicioner myself,I can honestly say that superb speed & dynamic exposiveness is this styles big forte.


Here is the catch22,we must all have a back up plan in case this does not work and we end up in a clinch.

A lot of good shotokan guys,especially in japan have a good background in judo and a great understanding of tai sabaki and kuzushi(off balancing)therefore sweeps along with takedowns can be added into the mix.


Although,I don't know how many "pure" shotokan guys address the issue of continuaction in grappling on the ground if a drag down occurs.


Hector Gomez

adroitjimon
4th May 2003, 05:50
OOPS! I mean straight face lunge punch and
straight lunge punch to the solarplexus,sorry.
adroitjimon...

Jay Vail
7th May 2003, 10:54
Harry said: Acquiring resonable grappling skills is not that difficult, especially if you concentrate on the going for the eyes, fingers, pulling hair, biting, gouging etc mentioned above.

Interestingly, the Codex Wallerstein, a 500+ year old European fighting manual, recommends dislocating the fingers when you are down on the ground and unable to escape or do another trick.

Goju Man
15th May 2003, 01:58
Can't disagree with anything you've said. On attacking the throat, however, I had in mind the trachea, which is unmuscled and vulnerable even on a big person to a simple finger poke, which I used more than once on the ground as a kid to escape. The hollow above the sterum is especially vulnerable. Pressing there is often like pressing the release on a seat belt.
That is always a good idea, but you still need good fundamental techniques in standing and grappling which will put you in a position to do it.