Taiso

[David Dunn]

Following from comments in the previous thread, my questions are as follows.

0) what is the purpose of junbi taiso?
a) how much time should be spent on junbi taiso?
b) how much energy should be spent on junbi taiso?
c) what kind of exercises/stretches should be done during junbi taiso? (kentate, sit ups, static or moving stretches etc).
d) do different age groups need different types of junbi taiso?

I know there are a lot of kenshi out there with some developed theories of taiso, so I won't comment yet.

[jonboy]

Hi Dave,

We have discussed this many times since your move to Bristol, but here are my thoughts for everyone esle to see.

Above all I see the purpose of junbi taiso as being one of injury prevention for the rest of the time we are training. However, if you have read any papers/articles on stretching you might find one or two that say a warm up only lasts for a maximum of 15 minutes. This does not mean that, if you were having a purely kicking kihon, that you should warm up your legs every 15 minutes because obviously you are staying warm whilst doing the exercises. It does mean however, if you are doing say half kicks then half punches, that it is a waste of time warming up the parts of the body that are required for punching (and not kicking) until after you have finished with the kicks.

This obviously CAN be impractical during a lesson, but does suggest that the answer to 'how much time should be spent on junbi taiso?' depends on what you are planning to do in the session. Also on how long the session is.

In terms of how much energy I think that warm up should be the amount necessary to prevent injury and we should be getting tired doing SK in kihon. We are there to learn SK after all.

As for the type of exercises I am no expert, but am led to believe that static sretching has the ability to destabilise joints and should be kept until the warm down. Pre-SK taiso should be spent doing the same things we do in class, just at a slower speed and then gradually building up.

Do different age groups need different taiso. I would say yes, because similarly different age groups need different types of training.

There is so much to say, but I'll stop there for now....

[Tripitaka of AA]

Speaking as a fat lazy slob who does no decent exercise of any description, I will say that the taiso required for you ultra-fit experienced Kenshi who are training regularly could probably be way shorter than the twenty minutes that I remember.

The mixture of beginners and experienced Kenshi, Old and youthful, heavy and light, etc. makes choosing an ideal warm-up more difficult. For many people, mastering the movements used during Taiso can feel just as baffling as learning the Shorinji Kempo techniques (I often felt that the basic Taiso movements were copyright to Shorinji Kempo until I saw staff in a Japanese Bank doing the same moves prior to opening in the morning). Understanding how to warm-up and stretch relies on an ability to recognise the messages that are being received from your body. People who are unfamiliar with exercise will take time to get used to the new feelings. Being able to distinguish a stretch from a strain, or an increase in respiration from an impending coronary failure :). All these feelings are new to the beginner and the Taiso will need to be at a more plodding pace, just to allow them to keep up.

I hardly ever saw Jee Sensei doing any warm-up or stretching when he was instructing at the Abbey Dojo. I remember being quite startled when I saw him warming up at Stockwell, as it was something I couldn't remember seeing before. The same would be true for Mizuno Sensei I imagine. You guys at your peak must remember the fat lazy slobs who can't make their left foot move without looking at it... like me :D

[tony leith]

I would agree that taiso shouldn't be so extended as to take an undue amount of time from technical practice, or to leave students so knackered that they aren't capable of getting much out of the rest of class. However, being adequately warmed up is essential to train a)well and b) safely. I've opined on this subject before, but the purpose of taiso is to prepare the body for what it's going to be doing during the class. The model I personally use now is basically the fruit of somebody else's labours, specifically a Glasgow club instructor who did a sports science degree and who came back with some specific observations about common practice during Kempo warm ups.

First and probably most important is that static stretching per se is not a warm up exercise, and in terms of readying the body for the kind of movements that are required during kihon for example can be actively counterproductive. The reason for this is that you need the muscles around your joints to be in condition to help recoil from kicks and punches before reaching maximum extension, and stretching them is to put it mildly not ideal (stretching can still be done at the end of kihon or of the class as a whole). Typically, you can start with joint mobilisation, basicaslly working up from the feet/ankles up, then do the usual kind of cardiovascular stuff to get the heart rate up, follow with active rather than static stretching exercises.

I'm not suggesting that the foregoing is the only acceptable way to do a warm up, but I have seen warmups that just do not fulfill the basic requirements to constitute a warm up. I would aslo have thought that given that we're engaging in a specific type of activity it shouldn't be too hard to get a definitive sports science take on what the optimal type of warm up would be..

now dismounting hobby horse

Tony leith

[jonboy]

it shouldn't be too hard to get a definitive sports science take on what the optimal type of warm up would be..

It shouldn't be no, but there is actually very little (none that I've found) useful information in the literature. My Sensei and I were doing some research about this while back and it is remarkably hard to find any info.

The problem is that there is lots of info on stetching, but usually for sports/exercises in which the participants don't use their muscles to the same extremes (of motion that is) that we do. For example they have done studies on army recruits because of the number of available participants they can have. Colin Linz, on Budoseek (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2840), said that the Australian institue of sport did some research in which their soccer team dropped stretching during warm up’s and replaced it with sport specific foot drills. The effect of this was an increase of average hip flexibility, and a reduction of injuries of around 50%.

I think therefore that we are prehaps even more prone to injury from static stretching then the above people. However, I have no actual evidence to back that up....

[John McCollum]

Originally posted by tony leith

now dismounting hobby horse



Boy, will I pay for this one...

As I recall, static stretching is fine - as long as you don't follow that by punching and kicking thin air for an hour. That kind of activity won't do your joints any good anyway, but throw in static stretching and the consequences are pretty messy.

I've been told by the same Glasgow instructor of sports science fame that static stretching is ok provided it is followed by hitting pads/do/other kenshi. It goes back to the recoil idea mentioned above.

But hey, I only really mention this as an excuse to post the following :p

[tony leith]

-Boy, will I pay for this one...-

yes you will. There are people grown up enough to be magnanimous about this sort of thing. I am not one of them.

Actually fair point though about the punching/kicking thin air thing vs static stretching. Given that kihon will probably involve some form of tan en practice I think the general point holds though, especially as most clubs are not as fortunate as we are in Glasgow in terms of availability of equipment like Thai pads, dos etc. This is just one of the reasons I am not a fan of tan en practice taken to XS, partially because of the consequences for my creaking joints but mostly because I think sotai practice is incomprably more useful.

until our next meeting Mr. McCollum. Heh heh heh.

Tony leith

[cheunglo]

If you go to Google and do a search on "PNF stretching" (use quotes as well) you will get back in excess of 100 hits of sites providing info on all forms of stretches including:
1. ballistic stretching
2. dynamic stretching
3. active stretching
4. passive (or relaxed) stretching
5. static stretching
6. isometric stretching
7. PNF stretching (Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation)

In any event, use the right tool for the right job. This applies to stretching as well. Static stretching will help wherever body movements will reach the envelope of body flexibility. Punching motions rarely reach this envelope. Soto geri will reach the envelope of hip flexibility and so the box splits will be useful.

[David Dunn]

I think therefore that we are prehaps even more prone to injury from static stretching then the above people. However, I have no actual evidence to back that up....

What comes to mind is the amazing lack of injuries that occur in Shorinji Kempo. I am struggling to recall anyone being injured during tanen kihon. I once pulled my hamstring, first lesson back from Christmas - I arrived late and didn't warm up at all. Every other injury I've had has been bruises (caused by impacts), cuts (usually caused by another kenshi's long nails), and joint injuries caused by juho. None of these can be ameliorated by altering taiso (can they?).

Sensei spent a great deal of time on Saturday explaining how tanen kihon is designed to both generate power, and minimize the risk of strain injuries from over-extension (sokuto geri, and opening the foot is particularly salient). Injury would seem more likely to be caused by reckless practice, by which I mean not being aware of your present condition, and not following the instruction to tense your arm or leg fully, and only at the moment of impact (i.e. before maximum extension).


We have discussed this many times since your move to Bristol, but here are my thoughts for everyone esle to see.

This is a subject that I've thought about a lot, probably because it is where we have the least guidance. It is also the part of a lesson that varies most from dojo to dojo, and I've heard many different theories. It differs from the cursory gentle 5 minutes of the Busen Bekka, to up to half an hour of hard exercise in other dojos. It also varies enormously within each dojo, depending on who leads it off. My feeling, and again like most I have no evidence other than experience in Shorinji Kempo, is that it doesn't particularly matter what kind of taiso you do, as long as you loosen up, and practice kihon properly.

One purpose of taiso that seems to get overlooked is mental preparation. I can see that static stretching might not be physically optimum, but I do think that breathing control, and consciously trying to relax prepares you well for kihon; in my opinion you should feel the same as you do after chinkon gyo. Being sweaty and out of breath is counter to this. (Sitting quietly for a couple of minutes if you are late serves the same purpose). Kihon itself, if you do it properly, will develop your strength, fitness and flexibility enormously.

I'm just going to put a tin helmet on before the last point.
I rather suspect that most of sports science is really about extracting extra fractions of percents for top athletic performance. For us, I believe that we can choose anything we like, from the busen approach, to the other extemes, and it won't make much difference in the long run. I've been doing (mostly) the 5 minutes of jumping/star jumps, followed by 10 minutes of static stretching since I started training, and a fair appraisal is that my joints are far stronger than before I trained. I had a dodgy knee for years after playing football on a very muddy pitch. I turned, my boot didn't. I've had no trouble from it for a long time now, and I put it down to kamae, keri and seiza having strengthened my knees no end. Wrists? Now that's a different matter.

[jonboy]

sports science is really about extracting extra fractions of percents for top athletic performance

I would agree, but disagree with the thought that it doesn't matter what we do. The reason I think it does matter is more for our beginners. For seniors who can 'probably' :) control their limbs a little better I think it makes little difference, but we cannot expect beginners to be able to do so (even if we tell them what to do). They will naturally allow muscles to extend beyond their natural flexibility until they have learnt how to control their limbs properly.

Personally I have always felt that it is the exercise part, rather than stretching, that's more important. I.e. blood pumping round the muscles, warming them up and thus becoming naturally more flexible. The stretching then comes from doing controlled motions in kihon. But I would never teach this or claim it is so, as it is not backed up in any way.

I think the danger of doing only 5 minutes of exercise before stretching is that you tend not to be exercising every muscle that you are strecthing afterwards. Hence the stretch is less (if at all) effective.

A bit scrambled (the thought pattern in my brain), but there you go...

[Gary Dolce]

Gassho,

I think I have a similar perspective to David's. I have also been hearing a lot that static stretching at the beginning of practice is bad for you. But at the same time, I have been starting practice with the same basic approach David described (a short period of jumping followed by static stretching) for over twenty years and have been very impressed by the lack of injuries (knock on wood!) both to myself and others over that period.

I try to experiment with new things and not to be too set in my ways, but in this case, I still need to be convinced a change is needed. Especially for evening practices, the stretching we do at the beginning of class feels great after sitting in front of a computer all day. It is usually when I arrive late and don't spend as much time stretching that I feel like I am going to hurt myself.

Of course, I realize that sports science may contradict what I am saying, but I am having trouble reconciling personal experience with what the sports science people say.

Any thoughts?

Gary

[jonboy]

Any thoughts?

Many :) but I don't think anybody has said static stretching is 'bad' for you. It just might not be the optimal approach. I do agree about SK being relatively injury free. In fact I'm not sure if I've ever seen an injury that was warm-up based.

The problem I have is the attitude (I hate writting attitude, it always sounds so offensive - I don't mean it to be) 'If it's not broken then don't fix it'. For instance - why don't we tell honbu to stop refining techniques? Seems a bit extreme I know, but all they are doing is making them better. In this same way why do we not attempt to make stretching better/more efficient/etc.

I accept the need for a more authoritative voice on the subject, but I think it is fairly well known that other forms of stretching can be more beneficial than static streching, both in injury prevention and flexibility. The danger of course being we are not trained in their use, but I wonder how much scientifically based knowledge on static stretching is around in SK either.

[George Hyde]

Hi All,

Based very much on what Mizuno Sensei showed us, my approach is fairly simple and draws on little more than my own sense of what feels right...

ONE: start by rotating all the major joints slowly through a full range of movement (ie - don't start leaping around straight away)

TWO: start getting the blood and air moving with very gentle rhythmic exercises such as star-jumps, twists and alternate 'knees-to-elbows' skips.

THREE: run through the above 3 or 4 times increasing in speed each time until you reach a fairly hectic pace for the last set

FOUR: slow everything down for stretching with emphasis on relaxation and use of breathing to assist the stretch - at this point I frequently make it clear to everyone that taiso is for loosening and warming up NOT for improving on existing levels of flexibility - such efforts should be left for after training.

FIVE: pick up the pace again as for TWO above and finish of with a few bursts of sprinting on the spot

For me this recognises that taiso is exercise in itself and should therefore be approached gradually. The objective is to get the blood flow and muscle temperature up with natural movements BEFORE you start expecting your body to do anything more complex or demanding.

IMO, taiso is not and should not be a keep-fit session. Yes I realise that keeping fit is an important part of self defence and that an average session may not be as demanding on those of us who are already quite fit. For those who are looking for a work-out, there's plenty of opportunity for that during kihon and if that's not enough, then a gym is the more appropriate source. The way I see it, we have 2 hours for shorinji kempo training, and that's what we should be doing.

Later,

[David Dunn]

For instance - why don't we tell honbu to stop refining techniques? Seems a bit extreme I know, but all they are doing is making them better. In this same way why do we not attempt to make stretching better/more efficient/etc.

Jon - there is much logic in this. The top Shorinji Kenshi, the busen academy at hombu do a quick five minutes stretch, followed by kaisoku dachi meuchi and kinteki geri for taiso :)

Seems that there are two threads to the debate a) what type of stretching should we do and b) how much `exercise' should we do?

To b), my approach is unsurprisingly similar to George's, since we've trained in the same dojos, and discussed the issue at some length. Taiso is simply a precursor to kihon, not part of the Shorinji Kempo curriculum as such. There are another 164 hours in the week for other activities. However, I think Sensei's approach may have changed over the years. He may have said that 6am running at summer camp is `bloody silly', but wasn't it his idea in the first place? :confused:

To a), I just find it hard to reconcile the amount of debate over safety with the actual number of injuries. I think Cheung is right in saying that a lot of the movements don't push the body to the limits anyway. The hokei are designed to protect you, not hurt you. Most injuries seem to be caused by pushing yourself a bit hard, having a partner apply a technique too strongly or training beyond your ability. Compared to most people's sporting hobbies, I think Shorinji Kenshi expect very few injuries beyond a bit of innocuous bruising.

Finally, Gary alluded to another useful point. The time of day/year is important too. After a day in work, a good stretch might be what is needed, but if you train in the morning then perhaps you need something to help wake you up. Also a cold January day might call for a different ambience than a sunny August evening. Same goes for kihon and kamokuhyo.

[David Dunn]

ps: Tony, I meant to ask, given the expertise and amount of thought that has gone into this subject in Glasgow, could you run through a typical junbi taiso, and any other not specifically SK exercise that you might do in a class? How long are junbi and seiri taiso?

Does anyone think that we might benefit from seminars by some of the obvious experts in the BSKF?

[tony leith]

Again, the thoughts I've put forward about kihon are down to somebody else's exposure to sports science (Guy Wardrop's, for those of you who know him). I buy into them because in the months since I've stopped doing static stretching during taiso (and I haven't been doing it even at the seminars I've attended) my perennial problems with dodgy knee joints have eased somewhat. I strongly disagree that sports science is only applicable to elite level atheletes looking to improve their performance marginally - the human body is what it is, and while opinions on the best training regimes will vary from person to person and activity to activity I still think there's a bit too much of the public school 'never did me any harm' ethos in our approach to taiso. The point about static stretching I was making was not so much about the risk of sudden catastrophic injury, but culmulative damage/wear and tear to knee and elbow cartilage primarily, over prolonged periods.

You will subject the body to wear and tear through any reasonably strenuous activity of course, but why run the risk of sustaining unnecessary harm when - and this is the point - a relatively minor adjustment can obviate that risk. In terms of the question Dave asked about how taiso in Glasgow would differ from taiso down south, the answer is not very much. The basic structure (in the classes I take anyway) wouldn't be very different from that set out by George. the main difference would be that I would prefer to do active stretches - for example, instead of static stretching of hamstrings etc, stretch out the legs by moving from side to side with a slow count rather than holding a stretch for a count of ten, similarly with box splits have the hands on the floor in front of you and walk them (and the hips) forwards and back to the count, mobilise the back and shoulder muscles through active movement (loose punches from zenkutsu dachi emphasising full body turn, then shuffling forward and back as you punch, mobilise the lateral muscles by reaching up and across a la uwa uke, the lower back by twisting dowm to touch the hand to the opposite foot while allowing your head to turn and look up to the ceiling). Partner work that gets the heart rate up - light randori tag, lightly kicking a partner's body as you move forward then swapping roles - can be useful too, and in my opinion can actually be a better preparation for actual training.

In terms of the time all this should take, no more than about ten minutes. This is a fair raction of a class, but seems a reasonable investment of time to me in terms of ensuring people can train safely.
I repeat, I have been subjected to warm ups which are not warm ups. I might also add that what can end up happening at seminars where people are sitting down for prolonged periods and then attempting to get up and resume an activity that requires explosive movement is also contrary to common sense (you can take me out and stone me to death as a heretic if you like, but it's true...)

PS George the cheque is about to go in the post. Sorry for the delay.

Tony leith

[David Dunn]

Thanks Tony, much appreciated. I am interested in finding out what the best methods are. I have experienced Guy's taiso several times. Trouble is you need quite a lot of exposure to commit it to memory. The bottom line for me is that taiso should serve the purpose of preparing for kihon. I think 10-15 minutes is as long as it takes, and I totally agree with George that it should not be a keep-fit session.

There is mileage in the static stretching 'never did me any harm' argument because it seems to hold water in most cases. The strains I have in general are in the wrists, and in any case there is no certainty that Shorinji Kempo has much to do with that. The amount of daily typing, and perhaps congenital joint problems are likely to be more important. Cause and effect aren't always so obvious. Blood pumping and the muscles warmed up seems to be the prerequisite to avoid injuries, and Mizuno Sensei's approach is pretty standard.

No one has commented on my argument that the good chosoku during stretching is good mental preparation for kihon.

[tony leith]

I don't suppose any rigourous quantitative research has been done on this, but I actually don't think it's that uncommon to hear people complaining about joint problems as result of doing SK, and other martial arts for that matter. Some of these problems are undoubtedly due to deficient technique - overextending into punches and kicks being probably the most common cause - but the physiological argument about the problems caused by stretching muscles round a joint which you're then going to rely on to prevent overextension during kihon do seem pretty compelling to me.

From a purely selfish point of view, I suppose I shouldn't be all that concerned, because the 'train at your own level of physical ability' aspect of SK means that I feel entitled to implement harm minimisation strategies for myself when I'm training. I just don't feel it would be responsible for me as an instructor (however junior)to encourage people to train in a way that I believe in the long run could do them harm, especially when as I say the means of avoiding this do NOT require some radical deviation from the normal structure of a kempo class. I can't help but feel that there is a cultural component in people's attachment to 'the way it's always been done' over and above the actual merits of the arguments. BTW, I am not arguing that there is no place for static stretching - it can be done at the end of class as long as people aren't too tired. If we're serious about applying scientific principles to our training, that should apply to how we train as well as to the techniques themselves.

Tony leith

[Tripitaka of AA]

Tony Leith, you have my support. (Please send it back when you're finished with it, washed please ;))

I'm going to re-read your descriptions of exercises, because I got lost on a box splits that walks... are there any sites that you know of that would describe these exercises with pictures?

If I understand you all correctly, the taiso is something you see as the warm up and preparation for Shorinji Kempo. Not the time to try and get that leg wider than last time, or to struggle to get nearer to the floor than ever before. As a fat lazy slob with ever-more distant memories of training, I do recall that the Taiso stretches (and end-of-class warm-down if Sensei Graham Nabbs was visiting) were the only proper stretches I ever got around to. Improving my flexibility was something I considered to be one of the most visible and rewarding challenges (this is speaking as a beginner/intermediate). When techniques would come and go with seemingly no enlightenment, the steady improvement of joint flexibility was a constant spur to remind me that I was improving, even if I still felt like the clumsy coward of the first class.

I suppose that leaving the stretches until the end of class might be a very good way of retaining this slight but nevertheless worthwhile aspect of training.

Failing that, we could always find a Yoga class in which to develop the flexible body we'd love to use for Shorinji Kempo. Anyone remember the episode of the BBC1 series "Way of the Warrior". Not the one about Shorinji Kempo, the other one, about "Kalari Payit" the Indian art. First six months of training consisted of daily massages from the senior students, walking all over your back and sliding down your legs, covered in oil. No training until Master thought you were soft and bendy enough. :eek:

[tony leith]

The 'box split that walks' is actually not that complicated - from standard box splits position you just have your hands down to support yourself, and to a slow count you just walk your hands forward and thus bring your hips closer to the floor, then walk back - it's pretty much like doing cat dips, but a bit less arduous.

The thing about flexibility is that (for me certainly) there is a necessary trade off between this desireable goal and joint stability. Again, this is probably a more long run thing, but if you train on the one to the exclusion of the other it's probably not good. I have to admit I was initially sceptical about warm ups without static stretches, not being the most pliable person in the world, but if you're adequately warmed up and mobilised you can still do everything that's required of you in a kempo class.

I've mentioned this before, but one of the reasons for my knee problems is that most of the time Kempo puts some strain on the muscles on the outside of the thigh, causing them to develop disproportionately and gradually cause the knee joint to go out of proper alignment. Again, this is something that can be fixed by doing exercises which work the opposing muscle groups - I've seen Sensei Peter Moore do exercises like this in taiso. Maybe some members of the Technical Committtee in the UK could put their heads together and come up with some recommendations about best practice (originally suggested by Dave in an email to me).

Tony leith

[Tripitaka of AA]

Aaah, got it now, thanks Tony :)

[colin linz]

Hi All,

I’ve written on this subject a number of times, but I’m no sports scientist. My information comes from various coaching courses that I have participated in. During these courses I have had access to some of Australia’s top coaches, physiotherapists, and sport scientists.

Due to research at the AIS (Australian Institute of Sport, this is the government body that trains most of our elite sports people), they now believe static stretching should be avoided during warm up. That does not mean there is no use for the stretching technique, it is good for increased ROM (Range Of Movement). The problems encountered stem from a the loss of strength during an excentric contraction of around 7% post stretch; this can lead to injury at a latter time during physical activity.

Any warm up for any sport must be sport specific, so the movements must relate to the movement of the sport. It is OK to stretch during the warm up but use another method like PNF or Dynamic techniques, these also lead to greater control as they provide a strength element to the stretch, this leads to greater control throughout ROM. My warm ups these days include a general limbering up phase, during this phase I will use some PNF and or Dynamic stretching. However I now think of basics as a chance to provide a sport specific warm up period, as well as technique training. I still use static stretching, but I dedicate a session for this on its own after training. I find static stretching to be particularly good for relaxing, so I also include dedicated sessions at home during the week.

Warm ups must also take into account the participants, for instance warm ups during a children’s class can’t be the same as an adults class. They have different attention spans, and physiology, for example they can’t control their body heat as well as adults. When teaching kids I like to include some games as a warm up tool, this helps to develop some enthusiasm that lasts long after the game stops.

I am also of the belief that the warm up should be just that, not an aerobics session. Some martial arts that I’ve seen or taken part in use much of the training to develop fitness. I like to spend as much time as practical to learning Shorinji Kempo, if someone wants to improve their fitness to a greater level than would happen during normal training they can train at home or at a gym.

[David Dunn]

Colin,
sorry I didn't reply sooner. I've been relaxing in sunny Greece. Thanks for the input.


However I now think of basics as a chance to provide a sport specific warm up period, as well as technique training.

This is an interesting point. Is tanen kihon suitable Shorinji Kempo specific warm up? If so, should it be done slowly at first? I guess 'limbering up' sums up my feeling about taiso too.

[tony leith]

Tan en kihon can be used as part of the warm up, but there are problems with it (IMHO) if you're going to be going at it full tilt. If you're going for full extension, I'd certainly go for the "tai chi' type approach (for example Mizuno Sensei on a couple of occaisions at seminars up here has done the tenchiken kata very slowly for a warm up - I would personally have preferred to have got mobilised a bit first, but I'm just a stiff old fart). Something I've been experimenting within kihon is doing at least part of tan en exercises at that kind of speed. Let's face it, if you can't do it correctly like that, you're not going to be able to do it properly at speed. I think gong straight into full speed full extension practice is where people tend to overextend themselves, and be susceptible to injury. I basically think that should mostly be reserved for sotai or pad work, where you actually get to contact soemthing which orevents locking out to full extension.

Tony leith

[jonboy]

I don't think that anyone is suggesting you start off at full tilt (which is definatively difficult to do tan en anyway :) ). The point is, yes, tan en kihon is perfect (after joint mobility exercises). The idea of sport specific warm up is that you start off slowly and gradually build up to full speed. You can go full extension, but Tony is right, it has to be very slowly indeed for obvious reasons.

I also agree with Tony on the point that it gets you to practice form during the warm up. Actually I started training at 7:45 this morning (not trying to get kudos here, just the point being I was not remotely warm when I started) in a room with mirrors on two walls. After some joint rotations I did the tenchikens to warm up and was able to study my form at a slow speed in the mirrors. I followed this with some punches and kicks whilst moving down the dojo and I considered myself good to go.

However, I am a firm believer that it is how much exercise you do rather than strecthing that makes you ready. For instance the height of my mawashi geri does not SEEM to differ with amount of stretching but is determined by how warm (physical temperature due to exercise) my body feels.

Food for thought...

[David Dunn]

Another old thread to resurrect. What do the newbies think?

[edit] p.s. the original thread I referred to in the opening post is located here (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18722&highlight=taiso)

[Steve Williams]

Originally posted by David Dunn
However, I think Sensei's approach may have changed over the years. He may have said that 6am running at summer camp is `bloody silly', but wasn't it his idea in the first place? :confused:



Heh heh......

Yes Mizuno sensei did instigate the 6am run at summer camp, then Jee sensei took it on........
Then I took it on........ then everyone complained :eek:

Probably because they are lazy ******* (insert expletive)..... and they are too scared to say so to sensei? ;)


Now we have reached a compromise, and the morning run is "optional".........
Sensei is happy, and the people who manage to get up are happy, those lazy [expletive's] are happy.......

In sensei's own words...... "yes I did start the morning run, and then stopped doing it, Steve is so stupid that he carries on......" (he loves me really :D )


But doing it this way is consistant with the ideas stated here, it does not interfere with the "training time" but gives those who desire it the option to include a little extra fitness training........


And this year, how many "managed it"??
First morning, 35 (including ALL the sensei's!!)
Second (post party) morning, 14 (including Fujimoto sensei and Yoshinaga sensei, they put the rest of you to shame......)

[David Dunn]

Steve, it isn't laziness. I get out of bed at six most mornings these days, and go to the gym. It's the fact that it means you're whacked before training even starts.

[Steve Williams]

I get up early for the gym as well....... in the week. :eek:
At weekends I get a little lie-in.... (work saturdays, train sundays, so up at 8 anyway both those mornings).

So you should be used to getting up early, not such an issue??

But there is always an exception to the rule....... and I still say you are lazy ;)

[jonboy]

Steve, I agree with Dave. It's not laziness. It's the fact that it is morining exercise. Before you say that's just being lazy, I played tennis on both Friday and Saturday evenings after training.

Evening exercise is where it's at... (says the student).

[Pinkshinpads]

Gassho.

May I only add to the learned debate that few things beat what has now become known as the "Georgie Shuffle" - George Hyde Sensei's ingenious and contemporaneous jumping/twisting of hips/loosening of wrists exercise that has inspired much enthusiasm in kenshi lucky enough to experience it. :wave:

It genuinely makes for a great warm up!

(boy will I get a kicking for this.....)

Kesshu.


Mani Radjai

[sean dixie]

And thanks to Sammy from Mayfair for coming up with the name. Surely the exercise of the future?

[tracey fuller]

Yes I too enjoyed the Georgie Shuffle in a slightly unco-ordinated way, though I was slightly anxious about getting carpet burns off of that floor.
Something that struck me from earlier on in this thread was this comment by Tripitaka

For many people, mastering the movements used during Taiso can feel just as baffling as learning the Shorinji Kempo techniques

I remembered finding the basic stretching very difficult when I first started SK and practising it at home so I didn't look so stupid in the dojo. I have found SK very beneficial from the point of view of flexibility which seems to have solved an old back problem.

By the way didn't do the morning exercise, might be lazy but don't care. As the mother of a young child, first lie- in for a year, oh heaven!
Regards Tracey

[Tripitaka of AA]

Originally posted by tracey fuller

Something that struck me from earlier on in this thread was this comment by Tripitaka

For many people, mastering the movements used during Taiso can feel just as baffling as learning the Shorinji Kempo techniques




You see! I have this knack for putting myself into the mindset of the absolute beginner... almost like I know nothing at all about Shorinji Kempo... err, that's a good thing, right?:(

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by jonboy
Steve, I agree with Dave. It's not laziness. It's the fact that it is morining exercise.....

I didn't say that Jon. It's the fact that it's pre-training exercise that puts me off, and only because it detracts from training itself.

[jonboy]

I didn't say that Jon.
Dave, my post was badly written. I meant I agree that it's not laziness.