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O'Neill
29th April 2003, 15:41
When looking at the present leaders of daito ryu, it is evident that they all began studying from 1959 to 1963. I am wondering who studied with these two teachers in the 40's and early 50's.? We never hear of these people. Who were the seniors of Okamoto sensei, Mori sensei, and Inoue sensei? Considering the dates that Horikawa Kodo sensei trained with Takeda sensei, he must have had students that were around at least 25 years before the current leadership.

thomasf5
30th April 2003, 06:32
I can't speak to the others, but Okamoto S. told me his was Horikowa S. Okamoto didn't start study until he was in his 30's (can't remember exactly) and he's 77 now. The rest of DR AJJ's luminaries are dizzying to me: too many with similar names, changing names, etc., to keep up with.

O'Neill
2nd May 2003, 15:09
Is there anyone else who may know the names of the earliest students of Horikawa Kodo and Takuma Hisa? Perhaps early students of Yammaoto and Hosono sensei, I know that Kondo sensei studied with Hosono sensei.

don
2nd May 2003, 18:36
Originally posted by O'Neill
Is there anyone else who may know the names of the earliest students of Horikawa Kodo and Takuma Hisa?

I'm out of my element here, so take this with a grain of salt. I think of Kawabe and Amatsu under Hisa, but I don't think these go back as far as you want, right?

I might have a source to answer this question if you want to email me privately.

Nathan Scott
5th May 2003, 20:42
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Jake McKee
13th May 2003, 01:56
Hi Erin,

Takeo Nishikido was also a long time student of Kodo Horikawa. I don't know the exact dates, however if you click here, you can see a video on ebay of Nishikido which includes rare footage of Kodo Horikawa himself:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3326725785

Best,

Jake McKee
www.budovideos.com

Daito
13th May 2003, 07:54
One of early students was Mr.Nishikawa (now deceased), but I have completely lost his first name. He left the Kodokai early to establish his own group (or maybe there wasn't even the Kodokai, yet, but he studied with/under Mr.Horikawa Kodo and his father). Mr.Nishikawa's techniques were similar to the Kodokai. His group name was Hokkaido Aiki Renmei (or Aikido Renmei/Rengokai/Kyokai - noone is sure about this point). It was a very small, private group I believe.

Paul

Nathan Scott
13th May 2003, 18:13
[Post deleted by user]

Jake McKee
13th May 2003, 19:04
Greetings Nathan,

Japanese names aren't the easiest thing to translate, but I'm fairly certain his name is read 'Nishikido'. The first kanji is 'nishiki' and the second is 'dou'. You can see his name (in hiragana also) and profile here:

http://babu.com/~ikkukan/nishikido.htm

Nishikido studied Daito Ryu in Tokyo for 15 years before settling in Hokkaido to train exclusively under Kodo Horikawa. Now he lives in Fukuoka. Nishikido's technique is very mysterious, but then many styles of Daito Ryu look that way! If you've seen footage of Horikawa, Nishikido's style is not much different. Horikawa's line also spawned Okamoto sensei's Roppokai, who also does similar aiki techniques.

Something I find very interesting is why do these various lines of Daito Ryu look so different? What exactly was Takeda teaching to Horikawa and was it really so different than what he taught to Ueshiba?

Horikawa's line of Daito Ryu talks about various kinds of aiki - Head aiki, chest aiki, knee aiki, etc. Did Ueshiba ever speak of aiki in terms of various body parts? Not that I know of. However, in many old films of Ueshiba, he can be seen holding back many of his deshi while they are pushing on his head or his knee. When Ueshiba does these kinds of exercises, I am reminded more of Horikawa.

http://host30.ipowerweb.com/~budovide/images/screengrabs/209/209-3.jpg   http://host30.ipowerweb.com/~budovide/images/screengrabs/211/211-4.jpg

This pushing on the head, knee kind of exercise seemed to end in aikido with Ueshiba. Why? I recall reading an article, perhaps written by Kishomaru Ueshiba where he told his father to stop demonstrating those kinds of techniques. I'd be grateful if someone could find that article.

As for Nishikido, I go to Fukuoka once a year so maybe I'll try to stop in next time and see for myself!

Best,

Jake McKee
www.budovideos.com

Brently Keen
13th May 2003, 19:58
Nathan and all,

If I'm not mistaken, Nishiki-san was only 4-5th dan before he went and started his own group. I think that he may have learned mostly from Okamoto sensei while he was teaching at the Kodokai under Horikawa sensei's direction. I'm not sure if he actually trained very much with Horikawa sensei directly though, although he apparently did get a few private lessons from him.

The ukes on the Gasuru Aiki video reminded me a lot of the Shin Taido folks I've seen (they used to practice in the dojo across from us). Some folks think "aiki bunnies" are a funny breed - check out Shin Taido! Anyway a few of Nishiki's basic techniques are more or less the the same as Kodokai/Roppokai as far as I can tell from the video, the "more advanced" techniques are pure suggestion/reaction if you ask me - if you look carefully you can see there's not much real connection taking place between his movements and the ukes. That indicates more skill on the part of uke than tori (imo). IOW it's not liable to work consistently on average people, much less skilled opponents because it requires your ukes be extremely jumpy - it also helps if they have an unusually strong interest in and sensitivity to meta-physics, "ki", etc... I've never felt his techniques though - only seen the video.

Sun worship you say? That could explain a lot!

Jake,

I think he may refer to his practice/art as Nishiki-do, but I'd always thought his name was Nishiki as Nathan said.

I can't really say if Takeda did or did not teach Ueshiba the same way he taught Horikawa. It's fairly well documented that Sokaku taught different individuals and groups differently though. Sokaku himself was known to say that he'd not finished teaching Ueshiba all the techniques.

It is rather clear that Ueshiba did not teach aikido (even the prewar stuff) much at all like aiki is taught in the Kodokai and Roppokai. Although the photos you posted are similar in appearance to some DR Kodokai and Roppokai waza they are demonstrably quite different (imho), as aikido (although clearly derived from and influenced by DR) is also quite different from Daito-ryu - the aiki/ajj anyway.

Regards,

Brently

Ron Tisdale
13th May 2003, 19:59
Gozo Shioda Kancho was known for performing techniques like the picture on the right. Of course, it is said that he continued training in daito ryu even after he stopped training with Ueshiba Sensei.

For what its worth,

Ron

Brently Keen
13th May 2003, 20:35
Ron,

It's certainly worth noting. Shioda sensei did do techniques like the one Ueshiba is shown doing on the right. AFAIK he received a little more training in DR briefly (a few weeks, a month?) with Horikawa sensei, but was admonished to return to Ueshiba. My understanding was that Horikawa sensei respectfully did not wish to be seen "stealing students" from other students of Sokaku, and since Ueshiba was already Shioda's teacher - he recommended he return to and stick with aikido in respect to Ueshiba.

Personally, without making a value judgement either way, I think that careful analysis and comparision of both Ueshiba and Shioda sensei's demonstrations of the technique pictured above will reveal fundamental differences in their waza as compared to those of DR though. Ueshiba and Shioda's waza are similar in timing, but are both projections (not unlike many Chinese internal arts), Daito-ryu's technique is essentially aiki sage - they're completely different.

On a few other techniques it does seem that Shioda may have picked up a few principles from Horikawa sensei, that added to his own understanding/skills - you can clearly see that influence in some of Shioda's demonstrations - specifically I'm referring to a few characterisics I've not seen in films of Ueshiba or his other students.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

Ron Tisdale
13th May 2003, 21:15
Good points Brently...

Ron

Nathan Scott
14th May 2003, 21:13
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Jake McKee
15th May 2003, 23:22
Brently,

Anyway a few of Nishiki's basic techniques are more or less the the same as Kodokai/Roppokai as far as I can tell from the video, the "more advanced" techniques are pure suggestion/reaction if you ask me - if you look carefully you can see there's not much real connection taking place between his movements and the ukes. That indicates more skill on the part of uke than tori (imo). IOW it's not liable to work consistently on average people, much less skilled opponents because it requires your ukes be extremely jumpy - it also helps if they have an unusually strong interest in and sensitivity to meta-physics, "ki", etc...

Do Nishikido’s students respond much differently than other Kodokai or Roppokai students? I haven’t had any personal experience with Kodokai or Roppokai, but just by watching uke’s reactions on videos, I wouldn’t say that Roppokai students respond all that differently, would you?

There has already been a thread on Kondo & Okamoto, but one big difference between Horikawa’s students and other Daito Ryu groups is the control of breath. Roppokai and Kodokai instructors talk about controlling the breath of uke to the point where uke has difficulty breathing – sometimes when nage isn’t even touching uke! Being a Roppokai student, have you experienced this?

Nathan,

As far as the photos go, I'm starting to think twice about making too many assumptions based on still photos of Ueshiba S. Stan posted that photo of Ueshiba with 3-4 guys "pushing" his bokken. After someone spent a great deal of time analyzing the photo, it seems clear that what you assume from looking at the photo is not what was actually being performed.

Basing everything on a still shot can be misleading, but I posted the screen grabs with a presumption that most of the posters here had already seen the source videos as they are very well known.

From my recollection, the kinds of things that Kisshomaru S. was objecting to with his father were the "aiki stunts", like that in the photo posted to the left (pushing the head from tatehiza). This gag, along with the unbendable arm, etc, are principle based "stunts", that some instructors use to fool the public into thinking they have mystical powers. After watching Don Angier go through most of these aiki stunts, explaining the simple physics behind each one, you end up feeling a little stupid.

My guess is that such "exercises" were used by various instructors, including I believe Sokaku S., as "physical koan" for teaching important principles. But it is one thing to use such a koan to challenge your student, and quite another to use them as publicity stunts. I believe Kisshomaru S. knew that it would be a matter of time before people figured out his father's "mystical power", and then he would be looked down upon with suspician instead of awe.

I presume you’re referring to Koichi Tohei, but I never thought of him as using those kinds of exercises as gags or stunts. A gag, indicates a joke, or something meaningless. As someone who has felt Tohei’s techniques and spoke to him personally, I didn’t find anything about his teaching “mystical” or fake. Things like unbendable arm, pushing on the head, etc, can be explained through physics, but they can also be explained through hara, or correct breathing and posture. I suppose it depends on which approach you prefer.

Best regards,

Jake McKee
www.budovideos.com

Nathan Scott
16th May 2003, 00:20
[Post deleted by user]

morpheus
12th September 2006, 21:14
What Daito ryu groups in the US are affiliated through Takuma Hisa. I know of the Takumakai but I believe there are splintered groups as well who have their DR connection through Hisa. Also where are these groups located?

Thanks
Jeff

don
13th September 2006, 21:57
What Daito ryu groups in the US are affiliated through Takuma Hisa. I know of the Takumakai but I believe there are splintered groups as well who have their DR connection through Hisa. Also where are these groups located?

Thanks
JeffDavid Walter in St. Pete, FL trained with them in Japan. His site is http://www.essential-acupuncture.com/about.html .

morpheus
18th September 2006, 21:57
Don,
Thanks for the response.

Jeff

Ames
25th September 2006, 03:56
What Daito ryu groups in the US are affiliated through Takuma Hisa. I know of the Takumakai but I believe there are splintered groups as well who have their DR connection through Hisa. Also where are these groups located?

There is also the Hakuho-Ryu led by Okabayashi Shogen, who is a Kyoju Dairi under Hisa and was a senior instructor for many years in the Takumakai. He left the Takumakai in the 90's. He was also granted Menkyo Kaiden in Ono Ha Itto Ryu kenjutsu by Tokimune Takeda.

There are Hakuho dojo's and study groups in Michigan, Penn., N.Y.C. Montreal and Southern Ontario.

More info on this organization can be found here:

http://www.koryukan.com/hakuhoryu.html


--C. Ames

morpheus
27th September 2006, 14:32
Chris,
Thanks for the response.

Jeff

Mateo
29th September 2006, 22:14
To what appears to be a present direct connection:

http://www.yushinkan.org/takumakai/

Though I think officially a study group rather than a branch dojo...but their status may have changed.

I believe that Okabayshi established his own branch of the Takumakai which was called the Hakuhokai in the mid-90s, still teaching within the larger umbrella of the group, and it was not until late in 2002 or early 2003 that there was an official break with the parent organization at which time Okabayashi-sensei renamed the new organization the Hakuho Ryu.

But it seemed clear that there was greater and greater estrangement from the parent organization from the mid-90s on.

The source of the estrangement seems to have beem Okabayashi-sensei's desire to increase the amount of influence of the material from his training with Takeda Tokimune on the curriculum. At first this was tolerated and he brought the 'basic/fundamental waza' of the Headmaster back to the Takumakai and it was integrated into the system as whole (see Pranin interviews with Mori-sensei). This was not a welcome change for many who were dedicated to the existing approach based solely upon the teaching of Hisa Takuma. Okabayashi eventually felt that it would be better to establish his own organization to preserve the teachings of his two teachers in his own way.

This was my understanding when I was training with them in Kyoto/Osaka.

When I was there in 1991 Thomas Hargrave and Patric Kell were training there as part of the Takumakai. Okabayashi and Kawabe senseis were the most active senior teachers. In the mid 1990s, when I visited, the Hakuhokai had been established. When I was there from 2000-2001 (October) they were the Hakuhokai branch of the Takumakai and shortly after I left I was told they officially separated from the Takumakai and the Hakuho Ryu organization was established.

Regardless of details, the teachings of Hisa Takumakai are sure to have greatly influenced all members of the Takumakai, Daibukan and the Hakuho Ryu.

Takumakai
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DE6S-UMI/index.htm

Daibukan
http://www.daibukan.com/

Hakuho Ryu.
http://www.hakuhoryu.com/index.asp, http://www.izzy.net/~dsharp/hakuhoryu/