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seskoad
1st May 2003, 17:42
I am new in my dojo and affraid to ask my shihan. My dojo is Goju kai organization which is under gosei yamaguchi and the dojo run by Shihan iwan pranation. My question is:

- What is all breathing (like sanchin) for? My experience in my own country in Indonesia, we have so many ryu in traditional art (silat) like merpati putih, panca daya, etc. The training is used breathing, but it has purpose to build your inner energy and sixth sense. So when you fight for example merpati putih, the opponent can blow away (jumped on other way) without even touch the guy.

- Was there any breathing method in shotokan? I did shotokan when i was a kid, and I never see shotokan people do breathing kata.

- What was the effectiveness when you doing kumite by small jumping? i don't know how to describe it properly in English. If you see kumite tournament the moving was like repetitive small jumping. In my dojo, when we do kumite we didn't do that jumping. what we did more, well I mean not too stiff when you have opponent. The dan holder in my dojo usually open the kumite with 'cat's stance' (I forgot what it is called in japanese) and I found that way more comfortable rather than small jumping. I got more exhausted when do kumite with small jumping.

thanks and I hope you understand what I mean.

Rob Alvelais
1st May 2003, 18:13
You're afraid to ask your Shihan? You need to quit, and find another dojo. You're not going to be able to learn and develop, if you're in an environment that fosters fear and intimidation, instructors that won't answer your questions or you've got too many hang ups to ask questions.

BTW, I know Gosei Yamaguchi. He was my wife's first instructor. He's a lovely man, who is very kind and happy to answer questions. So, if the top guy in your org is so approachable, why should anyone underneath be less so?

Rob
(a shihan, btw)

CEB
1st May 2003, 18:49
I am new in my dojo and affraid to ask my shihan. My dojo is Goju kai organization which is under gosei yamaguchi and the dojo run by Shihan iwan pranation. My question is:

- What is all breathing (like sanchin) for? My experience in my own country in Indonesia, we have so many ryu in traditional art (silat) like merpati putih, panca daya, etc. The training is used breathing, but it has purpose to build your inner energy and sixth sense. So when you fight for example merpati putih, the opponent can blow away (jumped on other way) without even touch the guy.

Don't be afraid to ask a question like this. I can't speak for your teacher because I don't know him. But personally I love to recieve a question like this from a student. It demonstrates a level of interest that is very rewarding to see in a student.

I don't really follow what you mean by the sixth sense stuff. I am not familiar with Indonesian martial arts. Sorry.



- Was there any breathing method in shotokan? I did shotokan when i was a kid, and I never see shotokan people do breathing kata.

Yes, but at later levels. Hangetsu kata contains these types of techniques.



- What was the effectiveness when you doing kumite by small jumping? i don't know how to describe it properly in English. If you see kumite tournament the moving was like repetitive small jumping. In my dojo, when we do kumite we didn't do that jumping. what we did more, well I mean not too stiff when you have opponent. The dan holder in my dojo usually open the kumite with 'cat's stance' (I forgot what it is called in japanese) and I found that way more comfortable rather than small jumping. I got more exhausted when do kumite with small jumping.

I don't know. I don't do that either. It seems to be a waste of energy. There are times I move the upper body around. I feel like it helps me maintain a certain looseness. Sometimes movement sparks a reaction in your partner that you can try to work with. Sometimes I just stand very very still. I do all kinds of strange games with free sparring. Depends on my mood or my thinking process at the time. A game I play sometimes is I pretend of my partner's hands has a knife. I make it a priority to try to control that hand then counter with striking and or grappling. So I'll try to grab and control it sometimes and a cost of getting pinged by some other blows. The funny thing is my partner don't usually know I'm doing this. I don't put as much stock in free sparring as I do prearranged sparring but I do find some good uses for it.



thanks and I hope you understand what I mean.

thank you and same here.

Shitoryu Dude
1st May 2003, 20:21
The dramatic breathing in Goju kata was explained to me as an attempt to instill proper breathing techniques into new students. Breath control is quite necessary to truly understand and effectively perform a kata at an advanced level, so it is something that most, if not all, advanced students receive instruction in. The version of the story I heard was that the soke of Goju wanted his students to learn the proper breathing from the beginning and exaggerated it for effect. Only problem was that some of the students never learned to "internalize" the breathing exercise and now Goju is renowned for its dramatic breathing. I got this from my instructor when we had a Goju student transfer in and he performed his version of one or our kata. Needless to say, the dramatic breathing caused heads to swivel all over the dojo.

I think the "hopping" is keeping light on your feet and ready to move. I see it quite often - lightly bouncing on the balls of your feet so that you are ready to move in an instant.

:beer:

seskoad
2nd May 2003, 05:15
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
You're afraid to ask your Shihan? You need to quit, and find another dojo. You're not going to be able to learn and develop, if you're in an environment that fosters fear and intimidation, instructors that won't answer your questions or you've got too many hang ups to ask questions.

BTW, I know Gosei Yamaguchi. He was my wife's first instructor. He's a lovely man, who is very kind and happy to answer questions. So, if the top guy in your org is so approachable, why should anyone underneath be less so?

Rob
(a shihan, btw)

Well my shihan is approcable. I am Indonesian, my culture is when you meet your senior you respect them and sometimes you become affraid to ask because too respect. One more thing, I had this habit because I grown up in military family. No I am not affraid due to anything but respect.

Rob Alvelais
2nd May 2003, 07:06
Originally posted by seskoad


Well my shihan is approcable. I am Indonesian, my culture is when you meet your senior you respect them and sometimes you become affraid to ask because too respect. One more thing, I had this habit because I grown up in military family. No I am not affraid due to anything but respect.

I can certainly understand that. So ask the question, respectfully.

Rob

Harry Cook
2nd May 2003, 10:47
If you look at the Chinese systems that Goju may have been influenced by (White Crane, 5 Ancestors, Preying Mantis etc) you do not see really harsh brething. From a Chinese perspective such breathing is counter productive. In my opinion one of the reasons the breathing was made louder was to assist the instructor - if a student holds his breath he/she might create problems with blood pressure (the Valsava effect). In time this became over emphasised. No one breathes this way when they fight. I think it was Kanbun Uechi who told his students just to breath naturally - this seems like good advice to me.
Harry Cook

seskoad
2nd May 2003, 11:14
Mr. Harry cook

So I assume that the breathing in karate does not have anything to do with building your inner energy like indonesian martial art do. Inner energy i meant here that you can create wave from your breathing and can attack people without touching them, well i saw it in my country. They use that also use the method to hit thick concrete slab. So then I assume breathing in karate to make your body healthier, stronger and relax in mind, hmm.....that's fair enough.

I also remember a traditional doctor told me that in your life you won't breath properly all the time, he advice to do taichi too. Well, thank you for answer and thanks to other guys who answer this thread.

I also remember one of goju ryu sempai in Indonesia told me the story when Gogen yamaguchi hanshi came to Indonesia. He invited 10 dan holder to fight to him at once. The sempai told me that "the cat" fight like dancing so smooth while the opponent attacked him without hesitate. "the cat" even had someone to sing japanese song while he fought. And he just won easily. The sempai told me, that was the result of breathing training properly. That's why I asked this forum about the usefull of breathing in Goju ryu.

Other question, Can you achieve good result in doing breathing if you are smoker? I don't know the result yet since I am still white belt in goju, so my breathing won't sound like the other guys in my dojo. And I am the only one white belt in my dojo. :>

CEB
2nd May 2003, 15:16
Originally posted by Harry Cook
...From a Chinese perspective such breathing is counter productive. In my opinion one of the reasons the breathing was made louder was to assist the instructor - if a student holds his breath he/she might create problems with blood pressure (the Valsava effect). In time this became over emphasised. ...

Not only that but we have specific patterns of breath in our forms. The best way in know to teach that is to make the breathing loud enough so the students can hear it then they emulate the loud breath. If the students breathe audibly it is easier to tell if they are doing the inhales and exhales in the correct sequence. Doesn't mean they are breathing correctly however. Example from Geka Sai dai Ni. We teach no breath on the mae geri then a quick continous inhale through the Uraken/ Gedan Barai then exhale on the Gyaku Tsuki. On the 3 back to back kake uke techniques we inhale half way through the first kake uke and exhale on completion of the block kind of like middle block in Sanchin. The second kake uke is quicker and is an inhale through the whole technique and the third kake uke is quick also but the breath is exhale. Breathing loudly is easiest way I know to convey these kind of breathing patterns to novice students.

Rob Alvelais
2nd May 2003, 15:20
I remember taking a class on Sanchin Kata, taught by the Uchiagi's (father and son). They advocated a soft breathing. Much like when one attempts to fog a mirror with the breath.

Rob