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Michael Neal
2nd May 2003, 16:51
No offense intented to those who believe, but I think it is a figment of people's imagination.

Walker
2nd May 2003, 17:26
Originally posted by Michael Neal
I think it is a figment of people's imagination. That would make it something, wouldn’t it? ;)

Michael Neal
2nd May 2003, 17:31
I guess you proved me wrong :D

Joshua Lerner
2nd May 2003, 18:54
I think the subject is much more complex than that. I don't think you can really talk about whether or not ki/qi "exists", any more than you can talk about whether or not love "exists". You can't see love itself, you can't measure it, and everyone has a different definition. Everyone talks about it, though, and you can use the word as a form of shorthand for a whole bunch of thoughts and sensations. Problems occur when you are using the word in a conversation with someone else who uses the word differently, or not at all. Saying "Love doesn't exist" is really a shorthand for saying "the word 'love' has no meaning for me, and is not useful for me to describe my experience". Depending on the tone of voice, it can also mean "anyone who uses the word 'love' is lazy and naive".

The only way to discuss the issue in a way that seems to have any value would be to ask whether or not describing your experience in terms of ki is useful for you, or whether or not thinking about your experience in terms of qi allows you accomplish things that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to accomplish. Once you step outside of that, you start to get on shaky ground.

The topic comes up quite a bit in Chinese medicine circles, since Chinese medicine is based on the concept of qi. After you spend a certain amount of time using the concept in practice on a daily basis, and seeing the different ways that the idea has been used for several thousand years, you can come to the conculusion that the term does express something very important about our experience of the world that we don't normally get to express with the way we use English. The question of whether or not qi is "real" stops making sense after a while.

So I think it is more of an issue of language, and of how our language and ideas affect our experience of the world and our ability to affect the world, than it is an issue of what is "real". It is also an aesthetic issue - there is a type of abstract sensation of pleasure that comes with using the word, just as there is a type of pleasure in playing the role of the pragmatic rationalist. In both cases, you are using language in a way that satisfies and expresses some part of you.

I hope that doesn't sound like I'm avoiding the issue.


Josh Lerner

Vapour
2nd May 2003, 19:20
Is love figment of our imagination? :p

P.S. Opps, I didn't read previous comment.

Michael Neal
2nd May 2003, 19:31
I know this thread I started is a bit trollish, I just felt like saying what I thought after reading Bruce Baker's rant about Ki.

If Ki is just an emotion or state of mind then fine I can accept that it is real but if you think that it is some kind of magical force that can be used to repel attackers then I think you are nuts.

bruceb
2nd May 2003, 20:04
What is your observation?

Really .... do you have an observation of a condition, or physical manifestation, or are you merely trying to explain a feeling for an action or thought?

Maybe that is why the word Ki covers too much ground?

There is no such thing as Ki because you are using it for the wrong thing or in the wrong way?

Ki is kind of like grouping, if we call a pig a horse, or a horse a pig, we may be wrong, but they are still animals. Sizes, shapes, variietys, and the details may be just as important as the general use of the term Ki.

If I say I need a car and you come back with a limosine that can not navigate narrow streets, it is a car, but it is not right for my use at that time.

You want to make of Ki, fine .... just be careful when you practice someone does not make fun of you by using ki because they have studied the the intricate uses of body and mind to find a more effiicient means of practice. They might be using something that does not exist, but then one must ask, " what is it they are using?"

I call it efficient use of forces available, and others call it Ki.

Go figure it out for yourself

I have given more than enough clues on how to make what is taught better than it is ... and nobody wants to play with me ...

Oh well.

tmanifold
2nd May 2003, 20:21
Josh, That was an excellent parallel to draw. Ki or Chi or Aiki can mean what ever you take it to mean. Some people think it relates to the amount of oxygen in your system. Or it can mean a total economy of movement that lends power to strikes. Or it can mean I hieghtened sense of awareness that seems to allow you to divine your attackers actions. Depending on your cultural, mythological and religious background it could be explained any way you like.

I don't think it matters. Practicing Chi gung is good for you, why I don't know but it is. The one inch punch (and similar things) work. Great aikidoka can sense an attackers movements and avoid them. Does it really matter why they can? Believe what you want to believe, if it works, enjoy.

Hanna B
2nd May 2003, 21:28
Originally posted by tmanifold
I don't think it matters.*nod*

Michael Neal
2nd May 2003, 22:04
Josh, That was an excellent parallel to draw. Ki or Chi or Aiki can mean what ever you take it to mean

So I guess I can take the view that Ki is actually a hamburger.

Joshua Lerner
2nd May 2003, 22:16
"So I guess I can take the view that Ki is actually a hamburger."

No one's stopping you. Go for it. See what happens.

Josh Lerner

Michael Neal
2nd May 2003, 22:19
Ki tastes very good

Gene Williams
2nd May 2003, 22:42
ki is a good single malt scotch. Gene

Joshua Lerner
2nd May 2003, 22:45
For anyone who wants to undertake the difficult but rewarding task of attempting to understand what the Chinese and Japanese mean when they use the word ki/qi, there are two books that would be of immense help -

"Communicating with Ki: The 'Spirit' in Japanese Idioms" by Jeff Garrison and Kayoko Kimiya, published by Kodansha in their Power Japanese series.

- this is a short book that lists and explains about 225 idioms that use the word ki in Japanese. I used it when I was teaching Japanese to a few acupuncturists, so that they could get a feeling for what the word means outside of its medical uses.

"A Brief History of Qi" by Zhang Yu Huan and Ken Rose, published by Paradigm Publications.

- a first of its kind, though far from perfect. A historical and linguistic look at the word qi, including sections on its use in terms of medicine, martial arts, visual arts, and other topics. It also includes a list in one chapter of about 100 modern Chinese idioms that use the word, like in the first book, though it doesn't explain them in any great detail. Still, very informative and mind-broadening. There are problems with the book, but overall it was well-done.

I would recommend these books both to people who "believe" in ki and to those who do not.

Josh Lerner

Joshua Lerner
2nd May 2003, 23:16
"Ki is actually a hamburger"

If you have enough ki, over time it becomes easier to "keep weight underside" and develop a big hara so you can "keep one point" ...

"ki is a good single malt scotch"

... and if you "extend ki" to enough people, it becomes easier to "relax completely"...

Josh Lerner

Joshua Lerner
2nd May 2003, 23:20
Now that I think about it, that explains the abilities of a number of aikidoka I've practiced with in the past ...

Josh

tmanifold
2nd May 2003, 23:46
So I guess I can take the view that Ki is actually a hamburger

I guess I should clarify a bit. Ki is an "energy" that improves health or adds power to strikes, or allows you to divine an attack, etc. That "energy" can come from where ever you want it to/ believe it comes from. Take chi gung: Lets say for example you are a fundmentalist Christian who believes all things come from Christ/GOD. To you believing in the concept of the yin/yang, etc. would be sin. To get the benefits of Chi gung, you could go through the motions (ie stance, deep breathing) and instead of drawing Chi to your dan dein (hara) you imagine Christ's love and energy drawn there.

Now, was the benefit from the energy? Or was it from the breathing combined with visualization and an ergonomic stance? Who cares, use what ever worldview that lets you experience the benefits.

Beginners_Mind
3rd May 2003, 05:21
In a chinese to english dictionary the most common use of the word is breath. In fact in the west we some times use this word to mean some type religious from the far east, but in reality its a freaquently used word in the chinese (and I would guess) the Japanese culture. Everything from air polution to that kind of breath you take in when you get extremely angry. The religious or mystic part of the words comes from Chinese Taoist doctors who from natural observation notice that if a person didn't have breath they were dead, if they had it they were a live. Hence the idea of a life force.

Is their something mystical about being a live? That is for everyone to decide on their own.

Ryan Bertram

Joshua Lerner
3rd May 2003, 06:06
Hi Ryan,

You just brought up a great point that someone else was discussing with me in a private email conversation - ki is actually slightly different from qi. That is, ki is viewed slightly differently in Japanese than qi is in Chinese.

To make a grossly oversimplified but at least partly accurate generalization, the Japanese seem to use the word ki more often to describe subjective sensations and feelings, often in terms of personal relationships. The Chinese tend to use the word in a much broader sense, and seem more willing to use the word in compounds and phrases that deal with what we would consider to be inanimate objects or objective/environmental situations.

There is great overlap, of course, between the two, and this observation is not meant to delineate hard and fast uses of the word, since the Japanese also use the word in the way I described the Chinese using it, and vice versa. But it is my general impression, and my friend's also, whose Chinese is much better than mine.

It is also a good example of the Japanese talent for streamlining an incredibly complex foreign idea to make it more suitable for their worldview. It happened in Chinese medicine in a number of ways, also.

Enjoying the exchange,

Josh

Gil Gillespie
3rd May 2003, 20:47
The dialog re: "ki" is one of those subjects that periodicaly resurfaces throughout the history of this website, and this is as it should be. Those that are newer to e-budo may wish to do an archives search. Among the interesting interchange will be former heavy hitters who no longer actively post here. Their posts may be dated, but their ideas never will be.

At some juncture in a budoka's aikido career he must come to terms with the concept of ki. There is absolutely nothing wrong with training for decades and totally disavowing this idea. Personally I find that insensitivity myopic and limiting, but that's just me. I know dozens of skilled and dedicated aikidoka who think ki is utter nonsense and manifest their training in leverage, energy, et al. It's the old cliche of perception becoming reality.

Not all of us need aspire to having ten roughnecks bounce flying off our extended bokken. But we do train in ai-KI-do. There is an element to be researched, identified, and someday even internalized and refined. Science's inability to measure it or quantify it proves nothing except the limitations of science.

Ki was real to O Sensei. Real enough to permeate his world, interconnect his universe, and empower his art. He was an abstruse mystic who baffled even his closest disciples, and we seem to have precious little use for mystics in this new millennium. But he didn't INVENT this whole "ki" idea. There is no way to answer the strident critics who claim ki is nonsense. But I wouldn't want to envision my universe or my art without it.

I've been thrown by it; I've felt it. Both here and in Japan. That's all I can claim to know. Besides I'm on a journey with no hope of ever a destination anyway.

Dan Hall
4th May 2003, 00:41
Just to add my two cents:

The argument, "Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there," has been used by believers from all religions for many, many decades (if not more). Most commonly, Christians argue: "Just because you can't see God doesn't mean he doesn't exist. You can't see air or love, either."

The problem with this is that air can be measured. And so can love (through brainwave response to particular emotional stimuli). God, on the other hand, is a phenomonon that cannot be tested; therefore, one must believe in God based purely on faith and nothing else. Anyone trying to use science to justify the existence of God is wasting his/her time. The same thing goes for ki/chi.

Interestingly, the kanji for ki/chi is depicted as a bowl of rice with steam rising into the heavens. So, I guess chi/ki is steam. That could be metaphorical, and we could translate chi/ki energy into the adrenalin rush we feel when we get into a defensive situation. This, I can buy.

But as far as I'm concerned, anyone who believes ki/chi is an energy field that exists all around us might as well believe he/she is a Jedi Knight and that ki/chi is truly the Force ...

--Dan Hall

Joshua Lerner
4th May 2003, 01:15
And so can love (through brainwave response to particular emotional stimuli).

You are not measuring love - you are measuring brainwaves, and making the erroneous assumption that they are love. There might be a correlation between brainwaves and what some people ( ... some ) would describe as love, but you can never prove or say that brainwaves are love because they are two different orders of events. And you are taking the idea of brainwaves on faith - you've never actually seen one. You've seen pictures of squiggly lines in neurology textbooks, but you ultimately take the fact that they represent something going on inside your head on total faith. It doesn't seem like faith because you are surrounded by people who also believe what you believe, and because you've been raised to inherently trust certain kinds of authorities.

My point was not that love or qi are some mysterious force that exists and that brainwaves don't. It was that to understand the significance of the word "ki", we need to dig deeper than simply asking "does it exist?".

To forestall the potential criticism that I'm not really answering the question in terms of what I believe, I'll add that in my own medical and meditative practices, I and my patients have experienced things that would fall under the category of "mysterious energy fields". I try not to draw too many conclusions from them, and to be honest I use the word "qi" less and less as I slowly gain experience. However, when you actually experience it, it doesn't seem mysterious, it seems very normal. I just think we're raised to ignore certain types of experience in this culture, probably because of the pervasive conscious or unconscious Protestant taboos about anything resembling "magic" or "witchcraft", and the sensitivity can be learned, just as the sensitivity for wine tasting or art appreciation and criticism can be learned. So if anyone feels the need to, go ahead and put me in the flaky voodoo camp.

Josh Lerner

P Goldsbury
4th May 2003, 01:32
Originally posted by Beginners_Mind
In a chinese to english dictionary the most common use of the word is breath. In fact in the west we some times use this word to mean some type religious from the far east, but in reality its a freaquently used word in the chinese (and I would guess) the Japanese culture. Everything from air polution to that kind of breath you take in when you get extremely angry. The religious or mystic part of the words comes from Chinese Taoist doctors who from natural observation notice that if a person didn't have breath they were dead, if they had it they were a live. Hence the idea of a life force.

Is their something mystical about being a live? That is for everyone to decide on their own.

Ryan Bertram

Yes, there is a similar close association in Greek between the concept of breath and that of the soul, the latter becoming an equally fruitful area for philosophical and religious speculation.

Best regards,

Joshua Lerner
4th May 2003, 02:08
Did anyone get my joke about hamburgers and scotch a few posts back? I was so proud of it ...

Or is your silence an attempt to shame me into never attempting a joke like that again?

Josh Lerner

Michael Neal
4th May 2003, 05:55
Originally posted by Kenzo
Michael Neal, how would you explain the no touch knock outs everybody is doing these day if ki does not exist?

LOL, if someone can knock me out without touching me using KI I will give them $1000.

Also, I think it would quite strange to try and knock someone out by throwing a hamburger at them ;)

Joshua Lerner
4th May 2003, 06:32
(edited)

Walker
4th May 2003, 07:13
Originally posted by Joshua Lerner
Did anyone get my joke about hamburgers and scotch a few posts back? I was so proud of it ...

Or is your silence an attempt to shame me into never attempting a joke like that again?

Josh Lerner :D All joking should be encouraged especially in threads about ki.

Hamburgers have the most ki of all the Europeans. :)

PRehse
4th May 2003, 07:16
Sure there is Ki.

Ki - breath
Ki - spirit
Ki - energy
etc

Ki as a mystical source of energy on the other hand - I have a problem with.

Use it has a training visualization, if it helps you to believe in it no harm. If you use it as a crutch instead of hard training your problem.

coin
4th May 2003, 09:29
One interesting note on the "breath" - "ki" relation could be that in swedish (my native language;)) the word for "breath" is a jointed word which would translate to "spirit suite".
(Andedräkt, where Ande = Spirit and Dräkt = Suite.. more or less.)

Now how's that for spirit/breath relations?

MarkF
4th May 2003, 11:20
Hamburgers have the most ki of all the Europeans.

I guess I'm a Hamburger then.;)


Mark

OK, a second generation Hamburger.

MarkF
4th May 2003, 11:22
I could even be a ham-burgermeister...


Mark

bruceb
4th May 2003, 17:26
Fruit Yogurt, and hot green tea ...

Why couldn't it be pepperoni and beer? I guess thar days have gone for me ...

And about knocking some one down without touching them ...

you mean if someone activated your fear factor, or overstimulated you with images or stimuli ... you still wouldn't fall or feint? Wow! I think I have just met a real voo-doo Zombi.

What you believe Ki to be or not be .... depends on what you know. To call a volcano erupting, or a tidal wave washing ashore would not be wrong for calling it ki, but who would run away if they were told 'bad ki is coming, bad ki is coming!" Not me.

It is just as important to understand the details, isn't it? So that your perception has a visualization of what is being described?

The fact is, as being a creature of planet earth, we could all be grouped as Earth, but in understanding the details, we are human beings, or earthlings, or Terrans (meaning people of the planet earth), right?

So in light of there being no such thing as ki, there is no such thing as any living or moving object not having ki, but there are people who don't have the picture of what it is or how it works in their minds.

Too wierd?

Well to be brass ... with the logic of the thread ... you and I don't exist because Ki doesn't exist. Except, I believe in ki and I must, therefore, exist while you do not ....

Cool!

Since you don't exist ... can I have all your stuff?

Hey! Anybody else want to not exist? I have enough room for a couple a truckloads of stuff in my backyard.

(No wonder I love people who don't believe in ki .... they don't exist! All their stuff is up for grabs too! Woo-hoo!)

Joshua Lerner
4th May 2003, 18:13
Hamburgers have the most ki of all the Europeans.

Except, as has been proven in this thread, for the Scots.

Josh Lerner

Michael Neal
5th May 2003, 03:08
Originally posted by bruceb
Fruit Yogurt, and hot green tea ...

Why couldn't it be pepperoni and beer? I guess thar days have gone for me ...

And about knocking some one down without touching them ...

you mean if someone activated your fear factor, or overstimulated you with images or stimuli ... you still wouldn't fall or feint? Wow! I think I have just met a real voo-doo Zombi.

What you believe Ki to be or not be .... depends on what you know. To call a volcano erupting, or a tidal wave washing ashore would not be wrong for calling it ki, but who would run away if they were told 'bad ki is coming, bad ki is coming!" Not me.

It is just as important to understand the details, isn't it? So that your perception has a visualization of what is being described?

The fact is, as being a creature of planet earth, we could all be grouped as Earth, but in understanding the details, we are human beings, or earthlings, or Terrans (meaning people of the planet earth), right?

So in light of there being no such thing as ki, there is no such thing as any living or moving object not having ki, but there are people who don't have the picture of what it is or how it works in their minds.

Too wierd?

Well to be brass ... with the logic of the thread ... you and I don't exist because Ki doesn't exist. Except, I believe in ki and I must, therefore, exist while you do not ....

Cool!

Since you don't exist ... can I have all your stuff?

Hey! Anybody else want to not exist? I have enough room for a couple a truckloads of stuff in my backyard.

(No wonder I love people who don't believe in ki .... they don't exist! All their stuff is up for grabs too! Woo-hoo!)

You are one weird guy Bruce.

bruceb
5th May 2003, 13:23
Some days I just feel like a kid who has to be an adult .... on that post ... the kid won out.

coin
5th May 2003, 17:01
In the words of Stefan Stenudd:
"The debate is predictable. It focuses on one question: Does ki exist, or is it purely imaginary? An interesting question, for sure, but peripheral when it comes to Martial Arts training. Whether it exists or not, it works fine."

Source: http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_stenudd_0103.htm

Joshua Lerner
5th May 2003, 17:18
Coin,

Very nice. Thanks for posting the link.

Josh Lerner

Hopper250
5th May 2003, 18:22
Indeed We Scots are powerful.


Anyway what about this bio-electrical stuff my biology major friends talk about.

Is this a physical image of ki? I think so

George Ledyard
7th May 2003, 03:15
So Michael,
Let me get this straight. You are doing an art called AiKIdo. It was founded by a man who described most of what he was doing in the art using the concepts of ki and kokyu, etc. He taught Saotome Sensei, who has a whole chapter in his book on "ki and kokyu". You are in this direct lineage and you think they all made it up?
- George

Michael Neal
7th May 2003, 03:49
Originally posted by George Ledyard
So Michael,
Let me get this straight. You are doing an art called AiKIdo. It was founded by a man who described most of what he was doing in the art using the concepts of ki and kokyu, etc. He taught Saotome Sensei, who has a whole chapter in his book on "ki and kokyu". You are in this direct lineage and you think they all made it up?
- George

As I said when I opened up this thread, no offense intended to those who believe in it. I like starting threads with provocative titles but I generally don't mean anything by it just to probe issues and have fun at times.

Personally I have not received any training whatsoever in Ki nor has my instuctor mentioned it except to say that he did not know what it was. My instructor is a student of Saotome Sensei and he has, as do I, much respect for Saotome Sensei and his beliefs. I have seen my instructor drop people much larger himself that were attacking with full resistance all without the use of Ki. Maybe he was using Ki and not realising it but that is a different matter all together and would have to believed on faith.

I think that it is more of an inner spiritual thing to people than an actual energy that can be used to subdue people. Since I already have spiritual beliefs the Ki thing really does not mean much to me so this is why I jokingly refer to it a hamburger as it can mean something to one person and nothing to another.

Ledyard Sensei, if Ki is something you believe in and if it makes your Aikido more poweful then that is wonderful I just don't see it having much influence on me. But that of course could change, who knows, I do have an open mind.

Maybe if I make it out your way some day I can learn something from you, well I am pretty sure I could learn alot of things from you given your experience.

However, I do have to admit I am afraid of meeting up with you after some of our previous political discussions, you will have to promise to take it easy on me :)

bruceb
7th May 2003, 04:11
The essence of life, or the power that gives life essence, or the result of useing available forces to a more effective level above the average?

Take your pick.

If you don't like the word 'Ki' ... come up with another word ... just so long as the rest of us have a clue as to what that word means.

Go off and learn acupuncture and eastern medicine if there is a problem in understanding the different manifestations that people attribute to Ki.

I have no clue what real Japanese or Chinese think, because I am an isolated American who applies what other people think 'Ki' is to what I know or, at least, to what I think I know in the context of my learning / experiences. So, who knows .... what I think should be 'ki' may be absolutely wrong.

But ..... enough people seem to use this word, and seem to think there is some manifestation or physical identification for this word, who am I to say this word is not the description of what they think it is.

So, although, as a personal insight, one person may reflect there is no such thing as 'ki', another person may use this word to describe something they and others believe to fit the identification of this word.

Confused yet?

Well there is no such thing as confused.....

**************************************************

Actually, in describing an intangible, it was pretty funny to pose the statement, "There is no such thing as Ki."

Since I have never seen anything but writing from an unknown, or unseen, unmet in person person .... There is no such thing as you either .... Michael Neal ...

That is ... if we stick to the premise of the thread?

George Ledyard
7th May 2003, 07:20
Originally posted by Michael Neal


As I said when I opened up this thread, no offense intended to those who believe in it. I like starting threads with provocative titles but I generally don't mean anything by it just to probe issues and have fun at times.

Personally I have not received any training whatsoever in Ki nor has my instuctor mentioned it except to say that he did not know what it was. My instructor is a student of Saotome Sensei and he has, as do I, much respect for Saotome Sensei and his beliefs. I have seen my instructor drop people much larger himself that were attacking with full resistance all without the use of Ki. Maybe he was using Ki and not realising it but that is a different matter all together and would have to believed on faith.

I think that it is more of an inner spiritual thing to people than an actual energy that can be used to subdue people. Since I already have spiritual beliefs the Ki thing really does not mean much to me so this is why I jokingly refer to it a hamburger as it can mean something to one person and nothing to another.

Ledyard Sensei, if Ki is something you believe in and if it makes your Aikido more poweful then that is wonderful I just don't see it having much influence on me. But that of course could change, who knows, I do have an open mind.

Maybe if I make it out your way some day I can learn something from you, well I am pretty sure I could learn alot of things from you given your experience.

However, I do have to admit I am afraid of meeting up with you after some of our previous political discussions, you will have to promise to take it easy on me :)
a) don't worry, I don't carry old stuff around with me; you are welcome to come train with us any time. And you teacher is one of my oldest buddies. We might have very different ways of describing what we are doing but we learned it at the same place from the same guy and what we are doing is pretty much compatible.

b) everyone I have trained with that likes to de-bunk the KI idea is doing so to distance himself from those that they see as going way over board into La La Land. Kuroiwa Sensei and Angier Sensei are a couple that come to mind immediately. What is so interesting about these people is that, try as they might to demystify what they are doing, they aren't convincing in the end. Because if it were just a matter of mechanics as they might maintain, then their students would be able to do what they do. It would simply be a matter of detailed explanation and then some practice. But what you find is that there is still a wide gap between what the senior studenst can do and what the Teacher can do. I personally believe that it isn't just a matter of how you DO a technique but also a matter of how you THINK about it. This is where the body and the Mind come together. If you took a technique like katatetori sumi-otoshi I would say that your explanation of that technique and my explanation of that technique would be identical. I doubt if there would be a single detail I could show you about the physical technique that you don't already know. But I suspect that I can do the technique more effectively than you can. The difference would be in how I visualize what I am doing, how I place my attention, how I use my intention, how our mutual intentions come together, etc. Now I don't know what you call that... it could be the "psychological side" of the technique or the "energetic component" or whatever. Ki seems to be as good a term as any since it has been used for hundreds of years but I am not wedded to it. The Russian Systema folks call it Psychic Energy. If you can get to the Aiki Expo in September I would recommend going. Mr Vasiliyev will knock your socks off. Anyway, they make no bones about the existence of this dimension in technique and train in its use.

Anyway, I think that you must have had the experience of "feeling" some shift in your teacher's attention when you started to attack, something that caused you to start to make an adjustment before you ever made physical contact with him. I had a man in my Defensive Tactics class comment the other day that he could "feel" me coming at him. I was trying to crush him with my intention. I am sure that you know what I am talking about. That all comes under the heading of KI as I understand it. It is not something magical, at least not at the level I am functioning at. It is simply how your Mind comes together with your Body and how that effects the perceptions of an attacker.

People have back off about this because they think it something New Age, some hippie dippy thing that goes along with I'm OK, You're OK, and singing Kumbaya holding hands... For me it is simply a term that allows us to conveniently talk about the dimension where my Attention, my Intention, and my Physical Body come together to create technique. You can verify for yourself that it exists since you can create effects in your partner by changing how you place your attention, etc. It's easy enough to show someone the differnce between a couple of variations using the same technique. You can feel how they are different. I like how Gleason Sensei talks about Ki. He says it is simply what you are doing with your Mind, how you place your attention; as simple as that.

bruceb
7th May 2003, 12:25
George ...

You just about nailed the whole ki issue.

Only one thing was left out, the observation of stimuli / stimulators.

Within each 'blow your socks off' person who demonstrates the weird aspects of qi gong, or ki, there are a set of indicators or observations for physical and mental stimulators, and they can be mapped.

But you know what ... if they are brought to light within your knowledge as one puts it to 'What one is doing with one's mind and where one places their attention' ... then that small set of words, pretty much nails the essence of this whole subject, at least in my experience of said phenomenon.

wow!

Michael Neal
7th May 2003, 13:41
If KI is a "psychological side", focusing your mind & attention then that makes sense to me. I guess you could compare it to sports psychology. It just gets iffy to me when it is referred to as a mystical energy, but I guess this comes more into play with those who associate alot of spirituality with Aikido.

There is definately parts of your explanation that I can understand and appreciate and I do hope to drop by some time.

Phil Farmer
7th May 2003, 15:39
I have read this thread about Ki. I practice aikido and I have some pretty extensive scientific training as well. Do I believe in ki? Yes. Is it mystical? Well, maybe, it isn't for me, it is just something I beleive because of experience.

My reason for the above paragraph is to be vague. To most of us who are of a Western culture and philosophy, ki does not make much sense to us. Is it the spirit of fighting or competition? Yes, and no. What we have a difficult time with is understanding the Eastern view of the world and universe. In most Eastern philosophies, science and mysticism are but two parts of the same continuum. An excellent book about this idea is "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" by Gary Zukav. This book discusses how an Eastern physicist might view the world. The Japanese are very much this way, science and mysticism (religion perhaps)co exist peacefully. They would laugh at us for having this discussion.

On a personal level, I know (within myself) that key exists. I have coached a few Olympic caliber athletes and when they are "in the zone" there is something more going on than physics. They are in a different place and I believe it to be the perfect meeting of mind/body. Why does it not happen more often? It is hard to let it all come together. Our great martial arts masters, Kano, Funikoshi, Sugino, and others, I believe were masters because they were able to spend the greatest amount of time with mind and body as one. This is the true meaning of mushin, not mindlessness but"of no mind".

Sorry, just had to throw my two pennies in. The way we know things and the study of it is one of my great passions, as you might be able to tell.

Phil Farmer

George Ledyard
7th May 2003, 18:12
Originally posted by Phil Farmer
I have read this thread about Ki. I practice aikido and I have some pretty extensive scientific training as well. Do I believe in ki? Yes. Is it mystical? Well, maybe, it isn't for me, it is just something I beleive because of experience.

My reason for the above paragraph is to be vague. To most of us who are of a Western culture and philosophy, ki does not make much sense to us. Is it the spirit of fighting or competition? Yes, and no. What we have a difficult time with is understanding the Eastern view of the world and universe. In most Eastern philosophies, science and mysticism are but two parts of the same continuum. An excellent book about this idea is "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" by Gary Zukav. This book discusses how an Eastern physicist might view the world. The Japanese are very much this way, science and mysticism (religion perhaps)co exist peacefully. They would laugh at us for having this discussion.

On a personal level, I know (within myself) that key exists. I have coached a few Olympic caliber athletes and when they are "in the zone" there is something more going on than physics. They are in a different place and I believe it to be the perfect meeting of mind/body. Why does it not happen more often? It is hard to let it all come together. Our great martial arts masters, Kano, Funikoshi, Sugino, and others, I believe were masters because they were able to spend the greatest amount of time with mind and body as one. This is the true meaning of mushin, not mindlessness but"of no mind".

Sorry, just had to throw my two pennies in. The way we know things and the study of it is one of my great passions, as you might be able to tell.

Phil Farmer
If you haven't already read it, check out The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot. It has tremendous relevance to the psychological phenomena like being "in the Zone" as well as all sorts of other para-psychological issues. It talks about the work done by Prhibram (sp?) about the nature of consciousness and that some believe that the brain stores information in a holographic fashion. This dovetails with Bor's (I believe) work in physics which indicates that the Universes could be constructed as a hologram. It's very cool stuff.

Joshua Lerner
7th May 2003, 18:28
I just wrote something about the relationship between, and difference between ki, awareness and Intent in some qigong styles that I thought would be of interest for this post, but it got very long. I didn't think everybody here would want to read it, so if you do, send me a private message or email and I'll email it to you.

Josh Lerner

George Ledyard
7th May 2003, 23:10
Originally posted by bruceb
George ...

Only one thing was left out, the observation of stimuli / stimulators.

Within each 'blow your socks off' person who demonstrates the weird aspects of qi gong, or ki, there are a set of indicators or observations for physical and mental stimulators, and they can be mapped.

Bruce,
Could you expound on this. I am not quite sure what you mean. I could guess but I think I could just as easily be reading something unintended into what you are saying. I'd like more explanation in your own words before I decide whther I get it or not.
- George

RunDuck&Hide
8th May 2003, 02:58
Ki. This is a good topic, not one for the dinner table, mind you, but a good topic none the less. It's the humble opinion of yours truely that those that are so easy to dismiss the exsistance of such things as 'Ki' are also the same that dismiss God, the gods, the ultimate entities, Budo, shinto, catholic, etc. It's not that it's a physical entity, it's that it's a feeling - a sixth sense if you will. When it all comes together, the elements of martial arts, and is focused to a single point and released 'Ki' will enable the practioner to complete amazing feats.

If you look into how the masters and others have attempted to explain 'Ki' they all say it comes from 'X' and is attained by doing 'Y' therefor those that explain 'Ki' are useing the physical architecture of the human body to build on, and represent what is experessed as 'Ki'.

Does it exsist, Yes.
Is it supernatural, No.
Does it help, Yes.

These are my opinions only - I have been burnt for opinions on this forum before - I mean not to offend.

bruceb
9th May 2003, 19:37
I say we use the old term of Wants-its and just leave ki/ chi alone?

Now they, the asian arts will have to ask us what Want-its is and we can mystify them for a hundred years or so?

George, Mr. Ledyard ....

Much of the mystical influence people exert upon other human beings, or in the manner in which they connect mind to body is done within a set of rules, be they visualization, psychosamatic, or physical .... the methods people attribute to Ki are, none the less, chartable in the manner a human being must use to present a phenomenon of ki.

If, the simular rules of hynotizing are applied to someone overcoming your conscious mind, the physical rules of polarity are observed in relation to the human bodys polarity for martial arts, and the emotional triangle is understood, anyone can neutralize even the greatest practitioner who uses ki.

The result is, the effect of, having to use either physical force or pain divert ones attention so that the Ki effect is again possible to overcome an opponent with leaning towards physicality. The very simplicity of becoming familiar with interception of strikes, punches, kicks, or even learning to take the business end of techniques again and again from hours of practice are all methods to relieve the mind of stress and program reflexes. This opens the mind, much like freeing up a block of memory on your computer to allow it to work faster and more efficiently.

I am sure you have noticed that the more someone is confused, or disorientated, the easier it is to use the forces described as ki.

Maybe I am going too far, as I have been asked not to go into this too deeply ... but it really annoys me that most of the hours of martial arts training has it 'IN THERE" and we call it ki/ chi/ wants-its, when in fact, we are drawing upon the same science that makes a magicians trick work ... distraction/confusion. The signals of our movements, our physical prompts to an opponent, and our emotional state of mind are all pieces that contribute to the helping the technique work.

I know we have talked about the signals the human body recieves, and the effect of causing static to these signals, be it physically, or from moving the antenna, or even being slightly of the signal are the means to neutralize someone being successful. If this happens, then the reliance of physically disrupting the interference,or to reallign an opponent to be more receptive must be used.

Breaking the state of mind, causing pain, causing imbalance, causing helplessness are all means to break the concentration of the mind and cause ineffective physical defense or offense.

We are so far behind, in what we teach in Western style martial arts, that, I think, the western world has made it easier for Asian teachers to make a buck by just teaching the physical aspect of martial arts. So, we are given the physical aspect of training, and we are expected to find the other key elements in our own time from years of training.

Well, I don't think we need years, just a few hints on what to look for, things to observe in training, and a few hints on how these elements should be combined to properly work.

Observe the emotional triangle.
Observe the body's polarity in techniques.
Observe physical aspects of pain, and manipulation.
Observe the connection of body and mind making techniques more effective.

There are a whole host of physically measurable signals, and subliminal signals that the human body recieves, and we need to start paying attention to how they work.

Do you Wants-its? Well ... put the practice of body and mind together to Gets the Wants-its.

Pay attention to the elements and the rules that make it work and it will happen. Disobey the rules or the elements ... and it will not.

Why am I telling you this? You already have it .....

Oh well.

I just got back from night driving, which is not fun, so I am still a little dizzy.

Hope this helps ... even if it is a rehash.

PM me if you want to talk about details.

ErikH
14th May 2003, 08:39
I got into Aikido because of George Leonard's book "The Ultimate Athlete". In it he talked a lot about flow and I'd had enough interesting experiences on the basketball court that it resonated well with me.

Interestingly, flow was one of the most frustrating parts of aikido for me. I could get on the basketball court and fairly regularly get into some kind of flow, or so it seemed to me. On the mat, well, it was rare, for a long time. I asked people why and met with a lot of unsatisfying answers. Ultimately, I've come to think the mystical part of flow is way overrated and not nearly as 'real' as we think.

For instance, I was more able to flow on the basketball court simply because I was better at it. I had more skill and it led to me being in the right place for good things to happen. More skill also meant I was often better than the guy I was going up against which also made it easier to seem like I was in a flow. When I think back on it I don't remember flowing very much when I went up against those who really were good.

The reality is that much, probably most, of what we think of as being in the zone is really a combination of skill, matchups and percentages. For instance, a .300 hitter in baseball will go 4 for 4 and talk about being in the zone and seeing baseballs that looked like beachballs. Maybe the opposing team's pitchers just happened to have a bad day, or, maybe the opposing starter's best pitch was a fast ball and the hitter was a fast ball hitter.

Consider the simple element of percentages with a .300 hitter. If he gets 4 at bats he is likely to get 4 hits the following percentage of the time:

.3 * .3 * .3 * .3 = .0081

If he gets 500 at bats in a season he will get 4 consecutive hits 4.05 times (.0081 * 500). Did he get them because he was in the zone, or, because the percentages won out?

Is there even a zone? Probably, in a certain very specific context. For instance, I do think there are more and less optimal mindsets one can have. I think someone who approaches certain specific situations with fear and trepidation is probably more likely to fail than someone who approaches certain situations with confidence. On the other hand, I'm convinced that much of the talk about keeping a positive mental attitude is meaningless.

I once read an interview with a world class target shooter. He thought the idea was asinine. He said that he didn't need positive vibes but accurate and precise criticism regarding what he was doing wrong. A positive attitude was the last thing he cared about.

There is a real tendency on the part of people to look for a method or reason as to why things happen. A lesser talented team beats a more talented team and we start looking for answers when all it really means is that 'snake eyes' came up. Sure they had a good day but if they have skill then there will be times when that happens.

This is also why I don't really like the word ki. If what we really mean by ki is to keep a positive mental attitude then we should say that. Referring to ki in a vague or abstract way leads to all kinds of strange ideas.

I guess I took the long way to get around to it but I pretty much agree with the first post in this thread.

ErikH
14th May 2003, 09:14
Consider the simple element of percentages with a .300 hitter. If he gets 4 at bats he is likely to get 4 hits the following percentage of the time:

.3 * .3 * .3 * .3 = .0081

If he gets 500 at bats in a season he will get 4 consecutive hits 4.05 times (.0081 * 500). Did he get them because he was in the zone, or, because the percentages won out?

I couldn't get back in time to edit this. The first part is correct for a 4 at bat sequence and it does show that virtually every hitter who sticks around will eventually have a 4 hit day.

However, I'm not a statistician and the only part of the latter numbers I'm confident about is that they are wrong. My numbers should work for 500 distinct and separate 4 at bat sequences but that is not the same thing.

yamatodamashii
14th May 2003, 11:57
Ki is a figment of your imagination. Of course, so is everything else.

Love, being an emotion, would be more closely allied with the endocrine system (especially testosterone and oxytocin) than the nervous system. The so-called "brain-waves" would likely not enter the picture--except that men fall asleep after sex, which puts you down around the Delta-wave range (hopefully).

Qi is not food, but food is qi. Specifically, "gu qi" (not to be confused with "Gucci"), which can be used to supplement pre-natal qi. Carbonated beverages are referred to in Chinese as "qi hsueh" ("air(?) water").

Qi is most likely *not* bioelectricity. Otherwise, "qi projection" would result in electric-eel-like shock, would it not?

The fact that you cannot see something *doesn't* mean that it isn't there. Nor does the fact that you see something mean that it *is* there. Stop closing your mind when you come across words you don't like, and judge arguments by their logic rather than your own biases.

Pnuema is a very interesting parallel to draw.

"No-touch knockouts" (and for that matter, light-touch knockouts) are generally the result of suggestion. I have not yet seen contrary evidence.

"Personally I have not received any training whatsoever in Ki..." I find that highly unlikely, even using the narrower Japanese definition. Have you ever met someone's attack with a movement of your own, and used that meeting to redirect their momentum so as to bring them off balance? Blending with your assailant's energy is the literal translation of "aiki", and one cannot have aiki without use of ki--physically or linguistically.

As an alternative--or supplement--to *The Holographic Universe* (which, it must be admitted, gets a bit weird in places), I recommend *The Self-Aware Universe* by Amit Goswami. If nothing else, it has a great analysis of "Schroedinger's Cat".

yamatodamashii
14th May 2003, 12:51
For those who would argue that qi does not exist, I have a question.

Which of these statements is most correct:

A) A traffic cone is a triangle.
B) A traffic cone is a circle.
C) A traffic cone is, in fact, a cone--but may appear as a triangle or a circle depending on how one looks at it.

bruceb
14th May 2003, 13:44
I think we have got it!

A general understanding of Ki .... or ... at least the level of which most teachers consider the entry level to learn/ understand ki as it is taught today.

Any more thoughts on this subject?

rupert
15th May 2003, 05:48
The philosophies of old were invented to explain a world that otherwise, couldn't be explained. Many such philosophies disappeared - to the extent that god's claim to creation has not survived intact. It is just that certain institution remain and propagate it even though science now provides many of the answers we seek. "Do you believe in Ki?" is no different to "Do you believe in god?" God is, as ever, left to explain that which we do not understand - yet.

As Erik inferred, Ki explains why someone is good, without geting at the details - the guy has done it for years, he trains hard, he is centered, he is fitter stronger, faster than his contemporaries, he understands the time and rhythm of his chosen sport, etc etc.

Perhaps it is easier in martial arts to say - "He has good ki" - but this just confuses us because ki means many things to different people and is not definable and acquires mysterious aclaim. Accordingly, don't look for ki. Just aim to get fitter, stronger, faster etc etc., and leave it at that. And if you get there, don't say "Look at my Ki!" How on earth will your students learn if you tell them that?

Rupert Atkinson

yamatodamashii
15th May 2003, 10:07
Ki has nothing to do with being physically strong or fast. At its grossest level, ki has to do with being able to perform amazing physical feats *without* being strong--e.g., the elderly Ueshiba Morihei, who had to be helped up the stairs to his dojo, where he then proceeded to throw all his 20-year-old students effortlessly.

For a minor application, try the "unbendable arm" experiment.

If you are going to bring up God, *please* do so on another thread, preferably in the No Holds Bar and Grill forum.

George Ledyard
16th May 2003, 12:05
I don't know about ki from the standpoint that Chinese health practitioners understand it. But from the standpoint of showing the existence of the concept, that is easy. Almost every night I will go up to a student whose technique isn't working and ask him where his attention is placed. Usually he will reply that it is on the grabbing hand of the attacker. So I will direct him to place his attention on his own elbow or to think through the partner and the technique will suddenly work. So simply by getting the student to change how he is placing his attention in a technique it changes the whole technique. This is so commonplace an occurrence on the mat that it seems beyond question to me. I don't know what others may mean by ki when they say that it doesn't exist but as I stated earlier, to me it is evident in the place where the phyical aspects of a technique comes together with the mental aspects. It is tangible to both yourself and your partner. It's rather like proving the Black Holes exist... you can't see ki but you can observe the effects quite readily.

Aikisean
16th May 2003, 17:33
This is what I have told people who wanted to define Ki:
If you have ever seen a perfect technique, regardless of what it was, you have just witnessed ki. If you have done what you feel to be a perfect technique, you have just witnessed ki. But what you saw or felt was not ki because Ki has no tangible form. What you saw or felt was it's footprint, it's shadow, it's breath, a clue that it was just there. Ki is created when your mind, body, and spirit work perfectly for just a moment. When everything just clicks, when uke flies threw the air, when uke is pinned perfectly, when you thwart multiple attackers in a randori all at the same time. That was ki.
It's hard not to describe ki without making it sound supernatural. People who have done something miraculous have just demonstrated Ki's presense. Ki is the entire universe welling up inside you and springing forth through a perfect action of your own doing. I think that is why people say ki is a form of energy because energy in any form short of stationary is moving, dynamic, and powerful.
I believe (because no one alive really knows for sure) that Ki is action, timing, and energy.
Ki is not a hamburger. Ki is the hamburger flying through the air and hitting you smack in the middle fo your face. Right where I was aiming. :D

tmanifold
16th May 2003, 22:47
This thread has ceased to be about aikido so I am going to move it to Budo and the Body. I would like to say, Good job on having an intelligent conversation about Ki. This is the kind of discussion E-budo is about.

wendy ongaro
17th May 2003, 16:58
I interpret Ki/qi as being identical to the English concept of spirit. Actually both have similar meanings and homonyms- spirit comes from the latin word spiritus or breath. It has been used in the writings of Hippocrates, Galen, and other early physicians to describe the workings of the life-force in the body, much as eastern traditional physicians use it today, but without the level of sophistication that developed in the Eastern medical tradition.

It is used to describe a person's vigor- "he was in high spirits".
It can capture a vibrant energy, much like the one sought be generals before they lead their troops to battle- you know, when cheerleaders are trying to get the crowd to 'get spirit'.

When something moves a person emotionally, they will say, "It moved my spirit."

And Ryan- strong drink is also often referred to as "spirits". Hamburgers, however, are not often referenced in such a manner. If I eat them too underdone, however, my husband accuses me of developing "spirits" of a different nature. :rolleyes:

People who throw others with "just their Ki" I categorize with folks from the Appalachian pentacostal tradition who claim their "spirit" is strong with the Lord and handle snakes and drink strichnine, and all that business. Interesting to observe, maybe a little freaky, but overall seen with an overwhelming skepticism. Not something I'm much interested in devoting my time to. Every culture has its little voodoo side show in some corner of the circus tent. Its to be expected. it's the human way.

Wendy Ongaro

wendy ongaro
17th May 2003, 17:21
The phenomenon I describe above should not be confused with the skill and ability of individuals who develop a high level of tai sabaki- body movement- who have perfected their timing, spatial ability, and martial technique to such a degree that the maximum effect is generated with the minimal amount of effort- and if often also described as Qi. When I watch footage of Kano, Ueshiba, and the other masters, this is what I see. In fact, I think that this type of development is what all martial artists truly strive for in their training, and is what keeps us all practicing well into our older years.

Wendy Ongaro

Joseph Svinth
17th May 2003, 18:01
Ki is also closely related, conceptually, to aether, as used by Mesmer. This of course leads to Madame Blavatsky and the New Age, which in turn leads us to many North American aikido teachers.

Mesmer, meanwhile, contributed to the development of modern physics. He was wrong, but people found better answers seeking to document his assertions. See, for example, http://www.physics.hku.hk/~tboyce/modern_physics/topics/nerds.html .

Ki, and ideas like it, deserve respect because they are pioneering theorems. Nonetheless, the answers (that is, if you seek answers rather than platitudes or school solutions) are going to be found via studying and then internalizing the physics involved in dealing with moving objects.

And no, one does not need to do fancy mathematics on the calculator to make this work in practice. Ever watch Willie Muscone doing trick shots at the pool table? He looks at the table, sees the lines, and then shoots the three-bank rail shot that includes the cue ball jumping the ball in front of it. This is an understanding of physics (what one ball does when struck a certain way), calculus (moving objects interacting with each other), and geometry (hit the bank at this angle, and the ball will go that way).

Throwing people is not so much different, save that there are more variables involved.

yamatodamashii
19th May 2003, 13:55
In China, Qi is defined as any type of energy which is able to demonstrate power and strength. This energy can be electricity, magnetism, heat, or light. For examples, electric power is called "electric Qi" (Dian Qi), and heat is called "heat Qi" (Re Qi). When a person is alive, his body's energy is called "human Qi" (Ren Qi).

--Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming, The Essence of Shaolin White Crane, pg. 42

wendy ongaro
19th May 2003, 14:06
I like the analogy of a high level martial artist, and a master pool player. There are many similarities, and when such skill is at work, it does look like magic. As a low level practitioner, when I luck out and have one of those "special moments" when "IT" happens, it really feels like magic. And then I training three times harder for the next few weeks, hoping to recapture that lucky moment when I had that quantum leap. But, alas, when you actively seek it, it eludes you further.

bruceb
23rd May 2003, 16:31
Maybe the title is correct.

There is no such thing as ki.

There is only nature, and humanitys attempt to explain nature.

There is no such thing as god, only humanitys attempt to make sense of the universe, our own lives, and create some sanity, stability for one's life. The Observations of nature are the entirety of humanitys validations for thoughts or ideas, and the foil for finding ones true thoughts over the fantasy created by the mind.

Every single description of ki is an attempt to describe the actions that occur from ones actions. Every single evaluation of ki is a comparison of thought process each of us go through to secure the actions we attribute to ki?

So, in effect, we have created a set of conditions found within nature that we, as human beings can duplicate, based upon thoughts and actions, that will described by a word?

Maybe .... that word does not describe the conditions that exist?

So, if that is the case, ki does not exist?

I can get behind that.

Now .... I will end this response, and I will not exist in this thread.

Then again .... maybe I never existed at all?

Mmmmmmmm?

If I turn off my computer ....none of you exist!

How interesting "No such thing as" can be .....

joe yang
23rd May 2003, 20:03
Ki is a psuedo scientific model of reality. It has poetry and tradition. It can be a very valuable coaching tool.

The scientific model has a beauty of it's own. It is a poor coaching tool. However, the rules of physics are inviolate. Science will always have to bend to accomodate new facts. We can not bend facts to accomodate ki. There is no such scientific thing as ki.

yamatodamashii
24th May 2003, 11:27
Originally posted by joe yang

However, the rules of physics are inviolate.

Science will always have to bend to accomodate new facts.

These two sentences create a paradox; they cannot both be correct. Personally, I'd rule out the first, since the rules of physics have been getting violated fairly routinely since Aristotle.

joe yang
24th May 2003, 15:12
I stand corrected. Physics are inviolate. The rules and science change as science better understands physics. Did I say that properly?

yamatodamashii
25th May 2003, 09:21
God only knows.

:D

joe yang
25th May 2003, 15:21
God only knows.


Good answer! :D

bruceb
4th June 2003, 22:20
I must exist, because here I am posting again .... dag-gum-it!

You know ... the very basis of considering what I think ki is, or you think ki is, or what anyone else considers it to be seems to be the unending of the picnic table. It may be funny to someone watching, but to me, who is eating at that table, it is not funny at all. It is a contradiction of purpose and terms.

Ok. I'll bite. If it isn't ki ... then what the heck is it?

Is it a post merely to upend the picnic table for some crass crude laughter, or is it a subject that has some context to Budo and the Body?

If there is no ki, then there must be no life, also.

We are merely a reforming of elements, for a short period of time, which breakdown over a period of time and reform again, aren't we? That would mean the temporary formation of our bodys is not life, eh?

I guess, in that vein, we could go on and on to infinity, but it wouldn't give us any satisfactionor understanding of the description of how the mind and body work together to form a working relation that seems to come under the heading of ki, would it now?

The only thing I can punctuate about the statement, there is no such thing as ki, is that ..... you ain't been there and done that yet. But, when you have been there and done it, come back and jump in the pond and have a swim with the rest of us. The waters fine!

illusions117
14th June 2003, 12:09
I agree with everyone about there being many levels to ki. A simple defintion I like to apply to ki is "good technique." I think that sometimes from a less experienced practitioner, the movements of a very skilled practitioner seem effortless. Over time, people become better and better at reading body language, so in some cases their ability to anticipate someone's movement is rather impressive. I'm sure there are many other ways to describe ki, but to me it is very real. Of course my reality may be different than others because our world is based on perspective.

chrisdo14
20th July 2003, 23:42
if there are people here who do not beleive that ki exists i feel sorry for them all of us who do beleive it exists have a slight advantage over the non beleivers so this argument is pointless. if they dont beleive there missing out and u should just be thankful that u know better