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JakobR
3rd May 2003, 07:06
I wonder somebody knows if the falling techniques we see in many Gendai Budo exists in any koryu schools on the "learning side". My impression is that it is allways teacher who gets throwed and thus the guy who has to know falling techniques in order to not getting hurt during training. Are falling techniques not considered important enough for the student in koryu? Are there any examples of falling techniques in schools that does not throw the teacher?

Walker
4th May 2003, 06:03
I donít know that you could say that it is only the teacher who is thrown or receives the technique. Generally the senior takes that role in many schools, but everyone has to learn both sides eventually and for practice roles switch often in most schools.

As for various forms of ukemi, there are various forms of ukemi with all sorts of different goals.

JakobR
4th May 2003, 07:15
But isn't is so that you have to learn both sides in order to eventually become a teacher in koryu? Generally you would not learn the loosing side as that side makes a mistake. Switching roles as you often do today would be something new.

Chuck.Gordon
4th May 2003, 08:38
No. They don't take ukemi in koryu. They just go splat. :D

Seriously ... yeah. Most systems of koryu jujutsu that I have ever seen or read about include some form of ukemi.

In fact, I've read that 'modern' methods of ukemi can be traced to the jujutsu of the old Sekiguchi Ryu.

Both Kano and Ueshiba modified extant ukemi methods to their particular arts (and tastes), but they had to learn them somewhere.

Chuck

JakobR
4th May 2003, 09:01
Originally posted by Chuck.Gordon
In fact, I've read that 'modern' methods of ukemi can be traced to the jujutsu of the old Sekiguchi Ryu.
But only on the "loosing" side?

Chuck.Gordon
4th May 2003, 09:58
Originally posted by JakobR

But only on the "loosing" side?

Sorry, Jakob, I am not sure that I understand your question.

Ukemi skills are learned, regardless of the doing or receiving side.

In advanced practice, when one learns reversals and variations, the line between 'winning' and 'losing' blurs and both partners must have ukemi skills.

In many old-style dojo, the senior partner receives technique first during practice. This means the senior has to take ukemi. Where does that senior learn to fall? Well, there is usually a methodology to the instruction that provides that instruction.

Does that mean that the junior NEVER receives the technique? Nope.

Again, I'm not sure where you're heading with the question.

Ukemi is not a product of gendai budo, although some systems spend more time on it than others ...

Chuck

JakobR
4th May 2003, 11:13
I am sorry for not being very clear. My question was if ukemi is originally is a field-technique or a dojo-technique. I asume that modern technigues does not work well if you wear a scabbard. Does the old ukemi work with a scabbard? If they do not work with a scabbard, is that because you do not wear a scabbard during training (and thus indicating that the ukemi is not important i "real-life") or is there some other reason?

Richard Elias
4th May 2003, 16:22
Though I cannot claim that we are koryu since we cannot trace our lineage that far back, our system includes ukemi performed with sword & scabbard in obi, or with sword in hand and scabbard in obi. And also ukemi from seiza with your sword at your side, taking it up and rolling with it, and finishing with a kneeling draw. There is also ukemi with various other weapons such as jo and naginata. We also have technqiues of using ukemi as a form of attack and takedown, and as a counter-technique.

John Lindsey
4th May 2003, 16:26
I once saw a video of Yagyu Shingan-ryu and they showed how to roll with armor on. I am not sure if it was a "classical" technique or what, but it was interesting.

Walker
4th May 2003, 23:02
Originally posted by John Lindsey
I once saw a video of Yagyu Shingan-ryu and they showed how to roll with armor on. I am not sure if it was a "classical" technique or what, but it was interesting. During the Third Aikido Friendship Demo they discussed various forms of ukemi (not in armor though!) and differentiated between various classes of soldier and their ukemi. Some bushi ukemi was shown in which cartwheels and mid air flips were employed to protect the katana. Generally the freedom of movement was greater in the lower classes because they did not have to contend with the sword.