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Enfield
10th May 2003, 20:42
I have a question about rank testing in the ZNKR.

As I understand it (I don't do jo), when testing for higher dan, one must demonstrate koryu kata. My question is how is this done? Does the testee bring along their own partner? Or do they get paired up with someone else testing, and the two together decide what kata to do? Or am I completely off base, and all dan are earned through only demonstrating seitei gata? Or is it some fourth option I'm not thinking of?

Meik Skoss
10th May 2003, 22:35
And the answer is... all of the above and some of the above. It all depends on the circumstances. Most of the time, people testing for higher rank (rokudan and up) prepare with a dojo mate, so as to ensure familiarity with one another's technique, timing, and distancing. If nobody is ready to take the same level examination, it's possible that they may arrange to test with somebody from a different dojo. It all depends. Or, as the Japanese like to say: "it's case by case."

Up through godan, one performs only the seiteigata techniques (unless this has changed recently). Rokudan and nanadan exams consist of six techniques, three from koryu and three from, you've guessed it!, the seiteigata. In theory, it's possible to pick a waza from another ryu, but I've only seen Shinto Muso-ryu techniques at ZenKenRen exams. I've thought about doing the Tendo-ryu or Shinkage-ryu jo techniques, though it'd probably be looked upon as more than just a bit cheeky. Still, it'd be interesting...

Hope this helps.

Earl Hartman
11th May 2003, 08:14
Meik:

Ummmmmm.............does this mean that you can go all the way up to 5th dan in ZNKR jo only doing the seitei? I thought there were only 12 seitei kata all together. Am I missing something?

Meik Skoss
11th May 2003, 12:13
Re: Earl Hartman's question, "does this mean that you can go all the way to fifth dan in ZNKR jo[do] only doing the seitei[gata]?"

Technically, I suppose one could do that. In fact, I recall a couple of people telling me that they weren't even introduced to Omote kata until they were sandan or yodan. In reality, it is more likely that people would have started doing Shinto Muso-ryu before that point (though it is possible that people from other ryu might be using seitei jodo as a means for grading [don't ask me why]).

In any event, at the time I took the exam, we were only asked to demonstrate the last five (or six -- I don't recall the number) kata in the seiteigata. At rokudan, we were required to do six waza: three from the seiteigata, three from "koryu" (technically, it could have been from any ryu, but I think a Muhi Muteki or Chikubujima guy would've had a hard time passing). Whether this is a "good" thing or not is, of course, another issue.

Hope this answers the question.

ulvulv
11th May 2003, 16:10
Are the znkr-regulations today like they used to be:
1-5 seite for shodan
2-6 seite for nidan
3-7 seite for sandan
4-8 seite for yondan
etc..?

Meik Skoss
11th May 2003, 18:31
That's what they were the last time I took a jodo examination. It may be that they've changed. I know the iaido seiteigata keeps getting messed with, so it may be that the powers that be think it is time for "new" and "improved" criteria for exams or waza.

ulvulv
11th May 2003, 19:01
Some interrelated questions

How are gradings outside znkr in jodo? Do you have ranks separating beginners- intermediate- and so on?
Is znkr the only organisation that use the kyu/dan grade system for jodo? Is there seitejo outside znkr?

renfield_kuroda
12th May 2003, 00:01
Under NPO Hougyoku-kai (the organization under which I study Mugairyu Iaihyodo) there is also Shindomusoryu Jo, as well as tanjo, jutte, sai, kusarigama, etc.
For jo there is kyu/dan, in parallel with the traditional mokuroku/menkyo/etc.

Regards,
renfield kuroda

Meik Skoss
12th May 2003, 02:08
Properly speaking, the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei (All-Japan Kendo Federation) administers the art of jodo as one of its constituent disciplines, the others being, of course, kendo and iaido. Grades (dan-i) and shogo (teaching licenses) are awarded for all three arts. In Shinto (or Shindo, both terms are correct) Muso-ryu, the older licenses are awarded. They are, in order:
1) okuiri-sho (this is not technically a license, but an agreement between a teacher of menkyo kaiden level and the individual receiving it, to teach all of the ryu, excepting the gokui waza, assuming the person remains a diligent student and is of good character);
2) sho mokuroku (this is the first "technical" license and covers the Omote and Chudan sets of technique);
3) go mokuroku (the second technical license, it covers the Kage and Samidare portions of the curriculum);
4) menkyo (I have only seen two of these and I am presuming that it covers the Okuden/Shiaikuchi waza and kenjutsu [these are the same techniques as the fuzoku ryu Shinto-ryu, but aren't listed as such; only yattori odachi and yottori kodachi, the names of the techniques are not included]; and last, but not least!,
5) menkyo kaiden (this covers -- duuuuhhhh... -- the gokui waza and is only issued to people who become denshosha, those who are responsible for carrying on the transmission of the system).

There is not, and never really was, a headmaster for the Shinto Muso-ryu. Rather, when it was taught in the Fukuoka area, there were a number of dojo/instructors, each of them responsible for the transmission of the art. Obviously, since there weren't many people involved, everybody knew each other and their relative seniority was widely recognized. When Shimizu Takaji introduced jo to the Tokyo/Kanto area, the original dojo in Fukuoka was led by his junior, Otofuji Ichizo, who became the senior instruct there -- as Shimizu was in the Tokyo, Nagoya and Osaka areas.

Other jojutsu ryu are, of course somewhat different, as are ryu that contain jo as an element of their curricula. You'd have to ask an exponent of each system for detailed information.

Hope this helps.

Earl Hartman
12th May 2003, 03:39
Meik:

At what point are the fuzoku budo (kusarigama, jutte, etc.) normally taught? Also, are they covered in the licensing, or are licenses for them separate?

Andy Watson
12th May 2003, 13:22
Earl

This was just discussed in the thread marked "Jo threads". See if your answer lies there.

As for the grading requirements under the ZNKR, they are:

1st Kyu - Depends on region but often 1-3 seitei and the first three tandoku dosa
Shodan - 1-5 seitei
Nidan - 2-6 seitei
Sandan - 3-7 seitei
Yondan - 7-11 seitei
Godan - 8-12 seitei
Rokudan - 3 koryu plus 10-12 seitei
Nanadan - accurately fire ping pong balls from your mouth at an opponent standing 20 yards away

Hope that helps

Meik Skoss
12th May 2003, 14:59
E. Hartman's question about when the fuzoku budo are taught is a good one, but not possible to answer in any definite manner. In brief, the answer is, "it depends." (The Japanese phrase for that is at the end of this post.)

Different teachers teach these subsidiary arts at different times in a student's training career. I learned Uchida-ryu tanjojutsu when I was taught Ran-ai. I began Shinto-ryu kenjutsu and Ikkaku-ryu juttejutsu soon after that, then wasn't taught any techniques in those arts for a period of more than ten years. I've learned all of the uchidachi side for Isshin-ryu (through Oku), but only about a half-dozen or so Omote waza for the shidachi side of the techniques. Go figure!

Relnick Sensei has begun teaching the kenjutsu some time after a person learns both shidachi and uchidachi sides of Omote, but it is not an automatic thing. Some people, perhaps, will never get those techniques, depending on which "track" they're on.

One of teacher in Japan sometimes teaches the entire Omote set of kusarigama waza at a weekend seminar, then not do anything with it for a year. It's up to the individual to maintain proficiency. I know of another teacher who won't teach the fuzoku budo to any of his students (don't ask me why). "Case by case."

Hope this helps.

Guy LeSieur
12th May 2003, 15:28
Originally posted by ulvulv
Some interrelated questions

How are gradings outside znkr in jodo? Do you have ranks separating beginners- intermediate- and so on?
Is znkr the only organisation that use the kyu/dan grade system for jodo? Is there seitejo outside znkr?

Bonjour,

Let me introduce myself, my name is Guy LeSieur, a deshi of Pascal Krieger Sensei of the European Jd Federation (FEJ), which is not in anyway affiliated to the ZNKR. In response to Ulvulv the following are the three kinds of grades used in the European Jd Federation. We do not do seitei, but we do study the two tokushu waza (Suigetsu and Shamen).


1. The Dan/Ky system, for everyone.
2. The system put into effect by late Donn F. Draeger Sensei: Shoden, Chden and Kuden system. These teaching grades must be implemented by the International Jd Federation during the participation to one of its seminars.
3. The classical system of the Shint Mus Tradition: Oku-iri, Shomokuroku, Gmokuroku and Menkyo, Menkyo Kaiden. These grades are proposed outside the FEJ and IJF. In case of the FEJ, they can be given by Pascal Krieger only, as he is an official student of Shimizu Sensei and Nishioka Sensei. Apart from Oku-iri, these grades are teaching grades as well. Thus, an Oku-iri is not necessarily a teacher although it is the case up to now.

If there is an interest in the technical requirements for the Dan/Ky system in the FEJ, it would please me to post them.

ulvulv
12th May 2003, 15:37
If there is an interest in the technical requirements for the Dan/Ky system in the FEJ, it would please me to post them.


Of course there is an interest for that! Apart from the book from Krieger sensei, I myself have only remote knowledge of the jodo as practised in your organisation. (and some may say also remote knowledge of jodo inside the assoiciation I belong:) )
I saw an nice embu 13 years ago with the swedish jodo-couple who has been affiliated with FEJ(Lena and Lars Carlberg), doing kusarigamma and jo, thats it. I dont know their present affiliation.

Guy LeSieur
12th May 2003, 16:46
Bonjour Ulvulv,

Than you for your interest in the FEJ, and Im pleased to respond to it. For your information the Group leader for Sweden is now Michael Sderkvist in stersund (http://www.budokai.z.se/jodo/default.html), who received is Oku iri during the FEJ Vienna Gasshuku in 2001.

Please keep in mind that these requirements for each of the grades are listed in the official FEJ regulations booklet, but I am not in a position to say how they are implemented:

5th ky
Kihon Tandoku

4th ky
Kihon Tandoku
Kihon Sotai (j side only)
Omote Waza (j side only)

3rd ky
Kihon Tandoku
Kihon Sotai (j and tachi)
Omote Waza (j and tachi)

2nd ky
All of 3rd ky
Chdan Waza (j side only)

1st ky
All of 2nd ky
Chdan Waza (j and tachi)

1st dan
All of 1st ky
Ranai Waza (j and tachi)

2nd dan
All of 1st dan
Kage Waza (j side only)
Uchida Ry Tanjjutsu (j side only)

3rd dan
All of 1st dan
Uchida Ry Tanjjutsu (j and tachi)
Shint Ry Kenjutsu (shi only)

4th dan
All of 2nd dan
Shint Ry Kenjutsu (shi and uchi)
Isshin Ry Kusarigamajutsu (shi for Omote Waza only)

5th dan
All of 4th dan
Isshin Ry Kusarigamajutsu (shi and uchi for Omote and Kage Waza ) or Ikkaku Ry Juttejutsu (shi and uchi for Omote and Kage Waza )
I hope this will satisfy your curiosity and be assured that I make myself available for any other information you might need concerning the FEJ. Of course you can browse the FEJ site http://www.fej.ch/anglais/efr_navig.html

Earl Hartman
12th May 2003, 17:48
Meik's response was more or less as I expected; if my time in Japan taught me anything, it is that there are no hard and fast rules (or, should I say, there may be "rules", but everyone observes them in their own idosyncratic way, especially in the non-modern renmei arts).

So, am I correct in assuming that in traditional jojutsu it is possible to attain the higher rankings without knowing any of the fuzoku budo? Or, to put it another way, that the higher rankings do not necessarily imply proficiency in the fuzoku budo? And, if this is the case, are there separate licenses for the fuzoku budo?

Of course, I assume that this is also "ke-su bai ke-su". Just a general idea would be fine.

ulvulv
12th May 2003, 19:09
"Than you for your interest in the FEJ, and Im pleased to respond to it. For your information the Group leader for Sweden is now Michael Sderkvist in stersund"

I know who he is, I graded for shodan and nidan in iaido at the same time and place as he, ten-eleven years ago


My first impression is that you have very good grading requirements, developing the students proficiency in trough good and formal integration of the "fuzuko budo", not just as an occasional snack for the most eager students.

Meik Skoss
12th May 2003, 19:41
Yes, I suppose it is possible for people to go through the entire Shinto Muso-ryu curriculum without learning the fuzoku budo that are associated with it, but it's probably not too likely. As Guy said (hi, Guy, I hope you're doing well!), there is an integration of the other disciplines with jo. The way Pascal Krieger does this is more or less the same way as it was done at the Rembukan Dojo, back in the '70s (when he was training there with Shimizu S.), as well as the way the old JFUSA curriculum was set up.

Relnick Sensei has altered this somewhat, but there's not all that much difference when it comes down to it. You'd probably hold an okuiri-sho by the time kusarigama and jutte are taught to you. It might be sooner, it might be later. "Keisu bai keisu."

I've seen several references to menkyo in the other arts, but the only one I know exists for sure is the Isshin-ryu menkyo. Relnick S. 'n I were there at the Rembukan the day they were awarded to both Hiroi and Kaminoda S.s (as well as a whole slew of SMR licenses). Also, Kaminoda Tsunemori, explaining of SMR structure and fuzoku budo only lists menkyo for Isshin-ryu with the licenses for Shinto Muso-ryu.

Hope this helps.

Earl Hartman
12th May 2003, 20:05
Thanx.

Enfield
12th May 2003, 20:19
Originally posted by Meik Skoss
Or, as the Japanese like to say: "it's case by case."In retrospect, I really should have guessed this.

Guy LeSieur
12th May 2003, 20:41
Ulvulv, M. Skoss,

Ulvulv, if you want, I can remind Michael of his good memories of you on our next meeting, which will be at the next FEJ Summer Gasshuku.
M. Skoss, Im fine thank you and I hope its the same for you. How is your Mme Skoss? I have heard that she had to undergo knee surgery recently.
Please, let me just state again that the requirements that I posted are taken directly from the FEJs official regulations booklet and that the impression Ulvulv had that its consistently applied throughout the Federation might be just that, an impression. These technical requirements, as M. Skoss mentioned, were directly taken, in most part, from the JFUSA regualtions edited by Draeger Sensei in 1966 and incorporated in the AHJ (Association Helvtique de Jd) in January of 1989 which became the FEJ in January 1990. I hope this will clear any confusion that might have arisen following my post.

rethihunor
25th April 2007, 10:48
Hi Everybody!

I was told yesterday, that when ZNKR deleted the 9th and 10th dan, they also changed the Shogo exams, that for Renshi you can do the paper test in English, but for Kyoshi and Hanshi only in Japanese. Do you know what was reason for this and what is with 8th dan exam, can you do the 8th dan paper test in English?

I'm not afraid of having these kind of problems in the near future :) but it is interesting... This means that in ZNKR the ranks above Nanadan Renshi can be obtained only if you have proper Japanese language skills?

Andy Watson
25th April 2007, 23:30
I'm glad this was resurrected as there has been some clarification.

It turns out from Namitome sensei that the grading requirements are set by the prefecture in which the grading is held. For higher grades there is only one central grading so that is set by the big cajones in the ZNKR.

However when we held a 5th and 6th dan in the UK last year, Namitome sensei suggested a departure from the norm. 5th dans had to do one koryu plus 8,9,10 and 12 from seitei. 6th dans I think did 3 koryu plus 9,10,12. Sensei wanted to avoid people doing 11 and 12 as the grading would be too long. 4th dans also had to do Ran Ai which caught one or two of them out.

Expect the unexpected is the standard by the looks.

I also did something a bit weird and laughed at my own post on the previous page. It appears that I used to be a little bit funny unlike nowadays when I'm just stupid.

Fred27
26th April 2007, 06:58
Bonjour Ulvulv,

Than you for your interest in the FEJ, and Im pleased to respond to it. For your information the Group leader for Sweden is now Michael Sderkvist in stersund (http://www.budokai.z.se/jodo/default.html), who received is Oku iri during the FEJ Vienna Gasshuku in 2001.
http://www.fej.ch/anglais/efr_navig.html

Just thought I'd do an update. The correct adress is (nowadays) www.budokai.se (http://www.budokai.se). Michael Sderkvist was made IJF Shoden at the 2007 Kagamibiraki (Switzerland).

Fred27
26th April 2007, 07:25
I also did something a bit weird and laughed at my own post on the previous page. It appears that I used to be a little bit funny unlike nowadays when I'm just stupid.

Is that the way evolution goes? I'm still in the "funny" stage. :p

Kim Taylor
26th April 2007, 12:36
National grades are at 6dan but below that the requirements do change. While Namitome s. was coming each year to Canada we followed Fukuoka rules. Now that we've been passed on (handed over to the tender mercies of?) to the Tokyo sensei we follow Tokyo rules up to 5dan.

Of course now that both groups are coming this year it will be interesting to see what we'll be doing.

Kim Taylor



I'm glad this was resurrected as there has been some clarification.

It turns out from Namitome sensei that the grading requirements are set by the prefecture in which the grading is held. For higher grades there is only one central grading so that is set by the big cajones in the ZNKR.

However when we held a 5th and 6th dan in the UK last year, Namitome sensei suggested a departure from the norm. 5th dans had to do one koryu plus 8,9,10 and 12 from seitei. 6th dans I think did 3 koryu plus 9,10,12. Sensei wanted to avoid people doing 11 and 12 as the grading would be too long. 4th dans also had to do Ran Ai which caught one or two of them out.

Expect the unexpected is the standard by the looks.

I also did something a bit weird and laughed at my own post on the previous page. It appears that I used to be a little bit funny unlike nowadays when I'm just stupid.

Andy Watson
26th April 2007, 13:14
Kim

Maybe Nagoya rules?

Fred27
26th April 2007, 14:25
*edit*

oops! nevermind

Kim Taylor
26th April 2007, 17:39
Would not surprise me in the least Andy. Go to a third district and use those rules so nobody complains. :-)

I suspect we'll be told to stick to Tokyo rules.

Will be great to see Namitome s. again, I'm looking forward to it.

Kim.


Kim

Maybe Nagoya rules?

Andy Watson
26th April 2007, 22:35
I am jealous always of the last person who gets to train and be taught with him as it seems his days of flying abroad are numbered. Such a brilliant jodoka and such a frickin' excellent personality. Kim, if we ever meet in person I have a funny anecdote about him which I can only describe in spoken work and gesture.

Liam Cognet
26th April 2007, 22:41
Here's a related question:

Let's say one is awarded x-Dan by the ZNKR and y-Dan by another instructor. Dose the higher rank cancel out the lower rank or does the person then have 2 ranks in different kinds of jodo?

Andy Watson
26th April 2007, 22:52
The simple answer is nope and yes. The rank you hold by the ZNKR is recognised by the ZNKR and possibly the ZNKR alone. If you are awarded another rank by another organisation that will be recognised by that organisation and not the ZNKR.

The ZNKR recognises grades awarded by itself because it is ZNKR jodo you are being evaluated on primarily.

Kim Taylor
26th April 2007, 23:14
Last I heard, when he's retired off the jodo committee he's going to see about having his knees looked at, and maybe have time to do some more travel.

OK as told by a fellow student in the club. During one of the seminars he was here he watched a student walk by with his hakama drooping in back.

"Hey" he roars "Fix your Hakama! How are you going to control your mind when you can't even control your pants!"

If we do get a few pints in us I'll tell you what we owe him over here. Come on over next month, cheaper to Canada than to Japan!

Kim.




I am jealous always of the last person who gets to train and be taught with him as it seems his days of flying abroad are numbered. Such a brilliant jodoka and such a frickin' excellent personality. Kim, if we ever meet in person I have a funny anecdote about him which I can only describe in spoken work and gesture.

Andy Watson
26th April 2007, 23:17
It's definitely the way he says things that gets me rather than what he says.

Canadia is tempting but I am having to put off my Japan trip itself because of other stuff going on. But then maybe......eeeeaaahhhhh....

Kim Taylor
26th April 2007, 23:57
I'll add a little. You won't have a ZNKR grade unless you get it in Japan, grades are awarded by the country you're in and are recognized in other IKF countries, including Japan. Some time ago the ZNKR stopped doing grades outside Japan, a grading panel with Japanese sensei on it will be a panel granting rank from that specific country, not from Japan. I don't know if that applies to gradings if they are still done in association with the world championships... the one in 1991 actually granted ZNKR grades to the folks who did an iaido grade in Canada. But the ZNKR stopped the external grades some time after then.

My grades are CKF grades but if I was to go to France or England they'd be recognized by the IKF affiliated organizations there. One IKF affiliate per country (Hawaii is a historical exception). The structure is actually horizontal rather than vertical and Japan is (OK in theory obviously) just another country under the IKF.

Other ranks from other organizations are just that... other ranks. Occasionally in the past the ZNKR may have recognized other ranks from other organizations (there was a ZNIR crossover at one point for instance), allowed jump grades or etc. but all that is on the way out. Canada does not do jump or crossover grades, and very few prefectures in Japan do jump/challenge grades any more either. Makes life simple, we don't ever have to worry about the fellow who shows up and says "I've got 300 students and we're going to start doing iaido so how about giving me an equivalent dan to what I've got" The answer is (and has been) "no thanks, but you're all welcome to start practicing".

IKF/ZNKR gradings are done by a committee of several sensei from different dojo so no getting one from your sensei or from a visiting sensei even. The grades are recognized world-wide so they have to be up to the level. The ZNKR takes a dim view of "overseas empires", so if the top guys want to give rank by themselves outside of the ZNKR/IKF rules and regs, they do it outside the organization on their own and there's no crossover. This can cause confusion sometimes, especially with sensei in the ZNKR who have koryu organizations too.

Speaking of the ZNKR jo and iaido, they are indeed IKF things. I've seen more than one non-IKF (sometimes non-iaido or jodo) organization use them as if they were some sort of standardized, cross-organizational thing that "anyone can use". That makes exactly as much sense as a using kata set between koryu. The IKF/ZNKR "owns" the Zen Ken Ren iai and jo kata. Not that anyone really cares if someone wants to play with them, but it's a mystery why they would want to outside of the organization.

Some points that might explain some often confused concepts I hope.

Kim Taylor



The simple answer is nope and yes. The rank you hold by the ZNKR is recognised by the ZNKR and possibly the ZNKR alone. If you are awarded another rank by another organisation that will be recognised by that organisation and not the ZNKR.

The ZNKR recognises grades awarded by itself because it is ZNKR jodo you are being evaluated on primarily.

rethihunor
27th April 2007, 07:49
Kim

Maybe Nagoya rules?

What is that Nagoya style Jodo? I have seen some videos on YouTube, in which they are doing Koryu Jodo and other SMR associated arts. They are an independent group like Seiryukai? Or they are member of IKF? Or member of IJF? And who is their sensei? And do they represent a third line of SMR, near Fukuoka and Tokyo lines?

Andy Watson
27th April 2007, 09:46
Hunor

Questions questions questions - I dunno!

The Nagoya thing was a joke as it is located somewhere between Tokyo and Fukuoka.

Without doing a search I wouldn't know who Seiryukai are. The only two groups I know are Suigetsukai (Yano sensei's group) and Aiyudo (who I think are the same people but do publishing).

Regarding lineage, it is a bit restrictive now to think of there being just two lines of SMR jodo. There are a lot of highly-ranked teachers all over Japan now so who's to say why there shouldn't be a Hokkaido-taste of SMR jodo.

Both sensei's Matsui and Matsumura did both Tokyo and Fukuoka style of SMR jodo and while they received their Menkyo Kaiden from Otofuji sensei, they have their own distinct style of jodo compared to say Namitome sensei or Yano sensei.

Regards

rethihunor
27th April 2007, 21:27
Sorry, if I'm asking too much... :)

Here it is the YouTube video from Nagoya SMR Jo: :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBBJIpqmVOM

Andy Watson
27th April 2007, 21:45
Hunor

All the information on these people is on the YouTube page. They are descendants of Yoneno sensei although some of their kata do have a Fukuoka taste about it. Jitte was nice as was the kenjutsu but no koryu jodo! Only seitei.

????

rethihunor
28th April 2007, 07:58
Of course I have read the informations on YouTube page but when you mentioned "Nagoya rules" I thought that you have some detailed information about them. And sure it is my fault but I beleived that they are a SMR Jo group what has been written there beacuse they are doing katas which are not in Seitei for example Tsubawari. And also it is my fault but I focused on Hammaji sensei and I did not find anything about him on the net. Sorry once more!

Andy Watson
28th April 2007, 08:04
Hunor

There's no need to apologise. It was an interesting YouTube clip!

Andy

Fred27
28th April 2007, 08:13
About that clip...I should ask Mekugi directly but since its in this topic already: The group in the clip is described as an "independant Shinto Muso Ryu jo group in Nagoya"...From what group or Sensei are they independant from?