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View Full Version : To Block or not to block, That is the question !



Prince Loeffler
9th May 2003, 19:20
Hi guys !

Recently I witness a sparring session with two experience martial artist. To make this story short. A hard vicious round house kick was thrown and the blocker attempted to block the kick and instantly breaking his forearm.

Experienced has taught me that when facing a strong kicker, I rather not block, instead I used evasive defense. However, in situations where I cannot get out of the kick fast enough I would instinctively block and would suffer for it and sometimes almost breaking my arm.

One of the disadvantage I have in avoiding or evading round house kicks is that, countering the attack is impossible due to distance even at an angle. Most of these guys I spar with do not lunge after the kick, rather they would kick and retract back in front fighting position.

Anyone have suggestion and experiences as to how to train against strong muay thai type kickers ?

Thanks !

Gene Williams
9th May 2003, 19:33
Yes, move inside their kicking range and stay there. If people are breaking their arms blocking, they are doing it incorrectly. It is almost always better to use tai sabaki rather than a direct block, however, a direct block can really hurt the attacker if done right. Gene

Prince Loeffler
9th May 2003, 19:57
Hi Gene ! ( rhymes with Hygiene:D )

Yes, I am a strong believer of using the Tai Sabaki concept. But my timing has a lot of work to do. About three years ago we had a Japanese visitor who trained in Enshin Karate. He was good for I was kicking more airtime than Michael Jordan :D , even at a brown belt level his timing and movement were flawless.

On one occasion, I was facing a 16 year who has trained with us since I believed he was 7, he chambered his right leg as if he was about to fire a round house kick, I move in an angle to my right, instead he quickly switch and threw a spinning hooking heel kick and nailed me in my right ear, dead on target !

I felt No pain :D Just complete peace and serenity ;)

Yes, correct block can hurt the attacker...

gmanry
9th May 2003, 20:20
It is interesting to note that Uke refers to receiving rather than blocking. You receive the technique in a way that sets the opponent up for defeat. This definitely requires sabaki.

Watching a good Kendo match is what really hit this home to me. The experienced swordsman just flows with the attack,redirecting it subtley with his shinai and then counters with his footwork (incidentally eviscerating his opponent of course).

I remember a match I was having in TKD some years back (WTF Olympic style) and my friend did a very unexpected and nasty lead round kick to my head from a position that, quite honestly, I didn't think was possible. I did a simple fade left and a high deflection by just brushing my palm by my ear. He flew off his feet and landed right on his butt. It was the footwork that did it. I pushed his leg up higher than he expected and then blew his balance by shifting my weight a little. It was soft and effortless, also quite lucky in some ways.

This is what I keep in mind when I think of blocking. I just wish I had the presence of mind to have scored on him while he was in mid air, but I was so shocked by the outcome, I sort of just stood there. I am meaner now...

Goju Man
9th May 2003, 22:52
Yes, move inside their kicking range and stay there. If people are breaking their arms blocking, they are doing it incorrectly. It is almost always better to use tai sabaki rather than a direct block, however, a direct block can really hurt the attacker if done right. Gene
Especially the incorrect part. For example, an outside type of block headed into the kick is very incorrect and can definitley get you hurt. Like I've said, what's on your waist ain't always what you are.

Bustillo, A.
10th May 2003, 02:41
Originally posted by gmanry
... my friend did a very unexpected and nasty lead round kick to my head from a position that, quite honestly, I didn't think was possible.

... I just wish I had the presence of mind to have scored on him while he was in mid air, but I was so shocked by the outcome, I sort of just stood there. I am meaner now...


Good point. However, what you mention contradicts one of your previous suggestions about the results of certain formulas and trying to solve fighting scenarios on a computer. We can't measure certain things.

i.e.
The surprise. The unexpected. Presense of mind--emotional content; meanness, determination. (And what about all that ki talk. How do you gauge that one)


Therefore...
Trying to solve fighting scenario in 'Excel' = Outrageous (cubed)
Analysis through experience = Priceless.

Gene Williams
10th May 2003, 04:10
You said it Antonio, determination and just downright meanness are important, but the meanness has to be controlled meanness, you can't just go wild.:D I also think Glenn is talking from a point sparring viewpoint which, I'm sorry, I see as a waste of time. I guess you could argue that it sharpens your reflexes or something. Also, there are no roundhouse kicks in traditional Okinawan kata that I am familiar with. I think front kick is far more powerful and direct, more accurate, and easier to use. Roundhouse kicks lose power to centrifugal force, they give the kicker a false feeling of safety because he feels like he is avoiding coming straight in (always a better strategy..get there first and fast), and most people use the top of the foot which is worthless. Against a grappler, nothing will get you thrown on your ass quicker than a roundhouse kick. Gene

CEB
10th May 2003, 04:29
I think my round kick may hit harder than my front kick but I'm not postive. I'm not that scientific. My kick is a little weird though. It is mostly a roundkick I guess. I throw it straight to the target usually thighs or floating rib area. Sort of half round kick half front kick. Probably my best kick. Its not the way my teacher taught roundhouse kick. I never cared for exposing my testicles that much plus I think my kick hits harder.

Always kick with ball of the foot, toes or shins never top of foot.

Besides there is no round kick in Goju proper so I felt it was OK to do it any damn way I pleased. :)

Prince Loeffler
10th May 2003, 04:31
for the reason Gene has stated. I rarely use roundhouse kick. Since I fight from a side stance 90% of the time. I would only employ three kicks A side kick, Hook Kick and spinning side kick.

Gene Williams
10th May 2003, 04:41
Again, I think you are wasting a lot of energy with hook kicks and spinning kicks. I do not believe they are effective in combat situations and, even if your's is effective, I do not believe it is wise to rely on such techniques in the street. Many say, "Well, I wouldn't use it in the street." First, you fight the way you train and, second, then why bother with it at all. Your time would be much better spent developing a devastating reverse punch, lunge punch, and front kick and working on footwork and strategies to deliver them quickly and powerfully from both a defensive and offensive position. In the street, you don't get to bounce around and hang at your chosen kicking distance and whip out hook kicks and spinning kicks. Gene

Prince Loeffler
10th May 2003, 04:50
I understand completely and you're right. However It would be hard for me to say what would work in the street for me for I have never been in that kind of situation. However, I can truly say that there will be none of these fancy kicks. I have fairly good hand techniques.

But in real life situation, man ! I hope I don't crap my pant before I could execute a good and powerful front thrust kick. :D

gmanry
10th May 2003, 17:37
Antonio,

I think you need to go back and actually read my posts, but then I have noticed that reading other people's posts from start to finish has not always been your strong point (just giving you sh*T, don't sweat it). :D

I stated very clearly that it is an analytical tool to plan one's training. I don't fight like that, nobody can. When you fight, you fight your training, simple. Your training had better be systematic in some way, and the facts are that science enhances training, don't get so hung up on it. Do what makes you happy.

Gene,

No, full contact, limited rules though, no hands to the face (big limitation). I saw someone die in 1984 in a WTF tournament (back kick to the head). At the '93 nationals a guy got his spleen ruptured through the chest protector, watched him go out on a stretcher. This was in 1994 and I was helping a friend train for a state championship in WA. At the time we were both training in a Kyokushin offshoot style, MMA was just starting to come into vogue at that time. Our dojo worked a lot of Judo throws and takedowns, karate finishing work, but not much ground work.

Ed,

Exactly, and you developed it through feeling it out through your body, analyzing the weaknesses, and what felt right to you based on your experience. In the end you have "your kick," but when you throw it it tends to be along the same lines as that ideal on the bag or mitts.

I won't bother describing mine anymore, it isn't like the latest MMA tape, so it must not be good. Oh and I didn't develop it by just "doing it" in the ring day after day. ;)

(Yes I know that is not what most of you are suggesting, but that is what you can get when you read into things, or don't read...). ;)

gmanry
10th May 2003, 18:18
Round kicks are all about the angle of entry. Too many fighters stand in front of their opponent and throw it. You wouldn't do it with a hook, but so many people do it with round house.

Back to blocking-

Despite my thought experiment (in another thread) and the numerous incorrect conclusions people can make about it...

Your footwork is what protects you, the "blcok" is there to primarily make contact with the opponent, redirect them, etc. Of course, yes, in combat, you can make a mistake and get caught off guard, then you had better block! In drill, you should be working to minimize that as much as possible.

Even in "classical" karate their are very few true blocks, just redirections and avoidance, but at the same time, practitioners condition just in case. This has been discussed before.

If you can draw your opponent to attack the way you want him to, then you can use your "blocks" to punish them on the way in to another blow.

In TKD I used to block alot, because that is what we were shown (basically misunderstood karate). Then the Olympic influence taught us to avoid more with footwork, always better if you can. Lots of footwork changes and fakes.

Kyokushin from Japan has a lot of sabaki work and that was another good step. Movement is key to defense, but you will only be able to move so much before you have to get busy (what my example in the other thread showed).

Sochin
10th May 2003, 19:01
First, you fight the way you train

I'm glad this isn't true, in fact.

99% of my training for years has been hard style kick and punch, 1% has been arm bars etc. I have also been attacked by violent teenage clients dozens of times.

If I'd of hit or kicked them, I'd have been charged with a crime let alone fired on the spot.

I don't fight like I train, and I have to be clear when I train others that I am not turning them into a destructive automaton, just giving them tools to allow them choice.

Trianing, sparring and fighting are all different and not just parts of the same whole, and they are not equal.

Goju Man
10th May 2003, 20:20
Your footwork is what protects you, the "blcok" is there to primarily make contact with the opponent, redirect them, etc. Of course, yes, in combat, you can make a mistake and get caught off guard, then you had better block! In drill, you should be working to minimize that as much as possible.
Let's talk about that. In just about all kata I've seen, true footwork is not addressed. You may say that the bunkai is this or that but while you're doing kata, you are not practising true realistic footwork.

I think my round kick may hit harder than my front kick but I'm not postive. I'm not that scientific. My kick is a little weird though. It is mostly a roundkick I guess. I throw it straight to the target usually thighs or floating rib area. Sort of half round kick half front kick. Probably my best kick. Its not the way my teacher taught roundhouse kick. I never cared for exposing my testicles that much plus I think my kick hits harder.
That's very true. I like the round kick, especially low round kicks because they are faster to deliver, stronger than high kicks, easier to disguise. In the last UFC, Pete Spratt caught his opponent (Lawler) with several well placed low leg round kicks that put him out.

(low round kick to inside leg + knoledge of delivering it) squared x 4 kicks delivered divided by 2 rounds at a decreasing rate of 20% each round..... :eek: nevermind, he kicked his arse.:D

gmanry
10th May 2003, 22:11
I don't really want to get into a discussion of what kata does and doesn't do. That has been beat to death with this crowd.

I will say this, some of the kata I practice is fairly (note I said fairly) explicit about footwork. However, it is kata, which to me is an archiving device and not necessarily the end all, be all of fighting.

Also, I don't preserve kata to the degree that some traditionalists desire. After having done them for some years, I let my movement become more natural. I actually let my footwork drift along more natural lines. Of course, I only practice about 3 kata even remotely regularly these days and they are not classical kata. Just another tool, and I just enjoy doing them from time to time.

I think we all know what everyone's opinions are on kata, kind of a waste of time to watch everyone thump their bibles.

Bustillo, A.
10th May 2003, 22:49
Originally posted by gmanry
Antonio,
I think you need to go back and actually read my posts, but then I have noticed that reading other people's posts from start to finish has not always been your strong point (just giving you sh*T, don't sweat it). :D




No sweat.
Tools are important. When it comes to fighting scenarios, I merely pointed out an example, taken from your description of your TKD match, that the way one goes about analyzing is important.

-------------------------------------------------------
(Glen M. wrote.)
"For the truly geeky, one could even set this up in an excel spreadsheet and run iterations, you will get the same base results over and over."
--------------------------------------------------------0

In that case, for the purpose of fighting, that tool goes in the wrong direction.

I guess my strong point is that I'm not a geek and I would never think of coming up with your suggestion.

gmanry
10th May 2003, 22:56
Hey man, geeks have their positive attributes. For instance, trivial pursuit...

The fact is, have the stuff in your house wouldn't exist if not for geeks. Now, I am a geek who is in really good shape and fights pretty damn well, if I may say so. So, my strength is I am tough AND I can think...:p .

Actually, putting stuff into iterations in engineering, computer science, etc. lets you see things you would never think of, but that do happen. I wouldn't make it the focus of a class on the mat, but I might come up with an interesting training scenario because of it. To each their own.

Jay Vail
11th May 2003, 13:25
Cheers, Prince Loeffler.

May I suggest several possible ways for dealing with a roundhouse kicker that I have used over the years to good effect.

As you note, tai sabaki, while great, is often hard to do. Here are a few ideas.

1. Kick to the groin, if it is allowed, as he kicks. Watch the opponent, see that he is a roundhouse kicker, invite a head kick, and shoot a side kick at his groin. (This also works against a side kicker.) I was reminded of this lesson very forcefully years ago. As a newly minted TKD black belt, I switched styles to Cuong Nhu. In one sparring session, I was parred with a brown belt, Vu Trihn, who is now a well know sensei in our system. I was used to throwing lots of high head roundhouse kicks. After the third or fourth one, he whacked me in the groin so hard I had to sit down. (I would add that Vu doesn't stand taller than my shoulder.)

2. Spinning back kick. Start same as before. Watch the opponent to see how he likes to kick. If a round kicker, he will often throw kicks to the air or kicks you can dodge trying to feel you out. Invite the kick by leaving an opening (usually the head). As soon as he moves, spin and throw the back kick. This should be a true back kick and not a side kick (although I have used a hook as well). It must come off the floor, rising as a back kick does. When it is done properly, it is hard to block and often scores. It can, however, be jammed by the forearms across the chest/stomach. It is useful to follow up with hands at that point if he is not defeated by the kick. He will be unprepared to deal with the hand follow up.

3. Back fist. As before, invite the kick. As he throws it, move forward and to the side, pivoting on the leading leg, and shoot a backfist at his head as he goes by you. This is more dangerous that a kicking response. Follow up after the backfist; it can often miss, but it is often very surprising and threatening. I once had a guy duck so forcefully to avoid the backfist that he fell down.

4. Catch the kicking leg. This is best done with a bit of sideways or even forward movement, but does not require it. Your defense is thus: your lead hand covers the head and the rear hand the body, so that they form an X or funnel with the lead hand up and the rear hand down. As the kicking leg makes contact, you fold your arms around it, trapping it. Follow up immediately with a throw, or lock the leg joint. This catch is hard to do, but often so surprises the opponent that he is unprepared to respond. But don’t count on him being inactive. I have had guys drill me in the head with a lead hand back fist after I have so artfully caught their leg and have been slow on the follow up.

5. Preempt his kicking attack with your own. I have found it tiring and rather unproductive to trade kicks against a kicker. Many people will react to a kick defensively and very successfully. For those whose defense is not to run, but who stand and block, you can do this: fake a roundhouse to the body or groin. The fake should whip out without power and you should be careful not to over commit it or allow yourself any backward lean. Remember, it is a feint and not a true blow. But it must appear to be a true blow. It should also have forward movement, a slight hop of skip. Snap it back, and continue your forward movement following up with an aggressive hand attack.

I hope this is helpful.

Yours in karate, JV

bruceb
11th May 2003, 14:45
There are parrys...

There are redirections ...

There are strikes....


But there are no blocks in karate .... unless you are looking to injury yourself?

Kicks? Well, that is a matter of learning reflex timeing to parry, redirect,or strike. In essence, if there are kicks, then there is imbalance present, and in the openings that present imbalance there is opportunity.

A person who is great at kicking has to be twice as fast because of the time it takes to present the kick and recover. This means, one should work on timeing to become as fast or faster than the kicker without kicking. When that happens .... there are more opportunities, aren't there?

As far as learning blocks .... forget about it, they are not blocks. Stop thinking in those terms because it is a dead end.

CEB
11th May 2003, 16:03
Originally posted by bruceb
...
But there are no blocks in karate ....

These statements of the absolute nature of Karate is based on what karate training? Who is your teacher? What is your rank? After all you present us with words that posess an authoritarian feel. We know you are a beginning grade student in Aikido. I'm curious what your karate background is since you seem to think you have a grasp on its true nature. Thank you for sharing with us.

ADMIN note:

This now has it's own thread called Spoin off: (Spoin is a technical term used by moderators in a a rush !)

If you want to get in on this, go there.

All replies to the conversation between Bruce and Ed posted here will be deleted without notice.

After the new thread is running, this post will be deleted too.

Gene Williams
11th May 2003, 16:08
Jay, There are no "fake" techniques in true karate. Everything is thrown to hit. Tournaments teach terrible habits and strategy, which is why I quit participating years ago. If you want to use point sparring in a beneficial way, quit doing the hook kicks, spinning kicks, and quick point getting techniques like front foot roundhouse (a worthless technique) and silly little back fists and limit your techniques to what would also be strong in combat...lunge punch, reverse punch, front kick, and maybe a foot sweep or two followed by strong punches. You won't impress as many girls and junior students, you won't win as many trophies, and you won't get featured in Black Belt Magazine, but you will be a much better karateka and might even be able to defend yourself against a real opponent in the street. They do not fake, either. Gene

gmanry
11th May 2003, 18:50
Actually, I found that a lunge punch worked great in the few point tournaments I did a few years back. Unfortunately, they tend to make your ignorant opponents head snap back (because they don't really understand distance) and you get penalties. However, it is clear from observers who was winning the match based on hits and skill.

So, conceivably, a tournament could be a place to find lots of willing dummies to practice your more traditional techniques. You would have to be willing to put up with the incredibly biased judging you receive and all the dorks flipping their bo around like band majorettes...

Prince Loeffler
11th May 2003, 19:37
Jay:

Thanks for the informations. Its worth looking into. However as Gene stated, in MOST karate there are no fakes/feint techniques. The reason is that most succesful karateka will simply charge in with strong counter attack.

Succesful attacking tecniques are often straightforward basics, such as lunging punch or kicks. There is a saying that the fastest way to point A to Point B is a straight line.

In fact, this month someone tried a snapping back fist from a side stance as a set up technique...only to be countered by a side thrust kick to the ribs. This person now has a broken rib cage and will be out for a while.

Again thanks for the info Jay and cheers...


BRUCE: WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ?

Goju Man
12th May 2003, 23:24
If I parry, trap and simultaneously strike the punching arm's bicep would that be considered a block or a strike?
Parry, trap and simultaneously strike? What is the other guy doing during all this time?

Bustillo, A.
13th May 2003, 00:13
Originally posted by Goju Man

Parry, trap and simultaneously strike? What is the other guy doing during all this time?


...or perhaps, figuring out equations on a calculator.

Sochin
13th May 2003, 03:56
outa here.

:(

Onmitsu
13th May 2003, 09:08
But in real life situation, man ! I hope I don't crap my pant before I could execute a good and powerful front thrust kick.
I've used this technique a couple of times in a "real life" situation.
One incident sticks out in my mind. A 250 lb drunk was charging me and I did a thrusting front stomp kick that caught him sqaure in the gut and knocked him back 15 feet. He never even blinked and kept coming.

A good friend and training partner of mine has a penchant for jamming kicks with his elbow. By using a combination of distancing, timing, and tai sabaki he is able to strike your ankle, shin, or top of your foot no matter what type of kick you throw. Good defense comes from good fighting habits and an understang of distance. A roundhouse or even a good thai kick losses power as you move inside the arc of delivery.

Jock Armstrong
14th May 2003, 02:33
Tai sabaki is the key- the parry/redirection is there as a safety net in case you can`t completely evade. I agree on peoples` use of the roundhouse kick is limited from the front. Stepping across your target and using the angle can really up your chances of nailing the bad guy. As for high kicks and spinning kicks being of no use in "real life". I have used them- not often but the baddie gave me the "window" and I just took it. Train to do everything well and the body will choose what to do at the right time. Working in nightclubs I used locks mainly but sometimes it was on for young and old and I used absolutely everything I could. Elbows work in close beatifully [I roll them like a muay thai fighter- gets the point right in] knees, short palm heels,sword hands to the cheek bone [try that after a nice uppercut lifts his head for a plit second. It fits nicely into the orbit too.] TRain as you wish to fight is a mental thing more than a technical one. Controlled aggression and the will to win will carry you a long way. If you think you are right you`d be amazed at how much you can take and dish out.:) :look: :beer:

Jock Armstrong
14th May 2003, 02:42
For Greg- its a nightmare when you get some guy who is hard and doesnT wanna go down eh?! Been there too my friend- scared the bejasus out of me . Unfortunately sometimes you have to really hurt them to stop them. putting them to sleep with shime waza is probably the most humane but it requires a high skill level and there fore lots of practice.Slamming them into walls with Aiki or jujutsu type redirections works well though, bouncing their faces off tables and bars etc. Gives a whole new meaning to "environmental awareness"..............:karatekid

Jay Vail
14th May 2003, 10:37
There are no "fake" techniques in true karate. Everything is thrown to hit. Tournaments teach terrible habits and strategy, which is why I quit participating years ago. If you want to use point sparring in a beneficial way, quit doing the hook kicks, spinning kicks, and quick point getting techniques like front foot roundhouse (a worthless technique) and silly little back fists and limit your techniques to what would also be strong in combat...lunge punch, reverse punch, front kick, and maybe a foot sweep or two followed by strong punches. You won't impress as many girls and junior students, you won't win as many trophies, and you won't get featured in Black Belt Magazine, but you will be a much better karateka and might even be able to defend yourself against a real opponent in the street. They do not fake, either.

Gene, I agree that in the true fight there are usually no fakes made, and I agree that tournament touch fighting can teach some terrible habits. However, if you want to do well against a roundkicker in a touch fight, the combinations I described work. I did not make them up. They were taught to me by people who were highly successful in tournament fighting and I have used them myself countless times. I had assumed the questioner was writing about what to do in the touch fighting environment, and my post was made with that in mind. If I misunderstood, he can correct me.

In fact, as you probably already know, the touch fight and the true fight are very different. I assume that your comments are directed to the true fight. Yours, JV

PS, humbly, I wonder if anyone knows what "true karate" is.

Gene Williams
14th May 2003, 11:54
Hi Jay, It is the kind that doesn't fake techniques:D

Steve Williams
14th May 2003, 18:03
Lets just keep to the thread topic shall we......

Keep the drift to a minimum.....


And it can go in gendai, not bad budo.

sepai 85
14th May 2003, 21:33
Ok do any of you know what the peranial-lateral femoral is ? I do I have been hit there with a roundhouse kick well training and I was trying to stop the person. Roundhouse kick can prove very effective in self defence (although you should strike with your shin) trust me my legs just gave out under me not a fun waza to be in the recieving end of. It is true that you can also strike this nerve with a front kick but roundhouse kicks (cut kicks) are much easier that and knees. I think I need to point out that a backfist can work very well on the street to the reason I say this is if you strike the eye or under the eye it starts to swell up and water which gives you time to counter.

yours in respect and shugyo

Gene Williams
14th May 2003, 23:38
Backfist is comparatively weak if you are talking about the typical tournament style backfist. Ura zuki, or inverted fist punch is stronger as a single technique. Backfists in kata are usually done after kicks as "finishing off" techniques and are usually loaded across the body by the opposite ear and done as a power technique. I saw a fight once at a race track in which one guy reflexively threw his open hands up to ward off an aggressive punching attack. His finger accidently hit the attacker in the eye and it did not even slow him down. The cops quickly arrived and restrained the two. I got a look at the guy's eye and it was really swollen and bleeding. The other guy's nose was across his face and his lip was split to his nose. Don't assume anything. Also, in the street and in combat generally, try not to think in terms of time...there isn't any. Do it now. Gene

sepai 85
16th May 2003, 12:20
I was trying to make refrence to a backfist as a stun technique, which could then be followed through with multiple strikes to atemi points as well as takedowns lock ups and chokes.

Prince Loeffler
16th May 2003, 19:54
Hi, Ben !

Back Fist used as a stun technique on certain occasion will worked, provided that a good and accurate follow up killing teacnique is in place. However, by looking at Gene's point of utilizing certain strong attacking technique in street situations. One would not attempt to use fancy stuff and "dance" around on an opponent "hell bent" for your life or blood.

Before this thread drifts further down south:D What do you think would be a great defense against a very strong kicker in your personal experience & opinion ? Many members here opted Tai Sabaki over Strong "blocks".

Special Thanks Steve Williams for taking this out of Bad Budo Section and giving this thread a chance. Also, its great to see many response from this thread.

Gene Williams
16th May 2003, 20:59
I don't think it is that helpful to ask questions like, "what would be a good defense against...etc." When the chips are down and you are attacked, you will fight the way you have trained to fight whatever the attacker does. If the fight lasts very long ( over a minute), you may be able to take advantage of pauses or hesitations, but most fights just happen and there isn't much time to strategize. That is why I say don't waste your training time on comparatively weak techniques, i.e. backfist. You need to develop strong punches, kicks, and a takedown or two with some chokes and joint locks. You have also got to be willing to close with an opponent with no hesitation and with no fear of being hit. That is why I speak of building a strong spirit. Now, if you are talking about tournament sparring and you have a strong kicker as an opponent...you close with the bastard and never allow him kicking distance. That takes guts, but it works. Of course, you will probably get disqualified in a point tournament because you will probably nail the guy too hard, but who cares...you are training for the street, remember. I have always sort of gone with,"When in doubt, close with the opponent." Put the ball in his court and see if he can deal with it. Gene

Prince Loeffler
16th May 2003, 21:21
Gene !

This statement you made "When in doubt, close with the opponent." was applied in last week's kumite. It Actualy works ! Closing in actualy was a lot safer than shuffling, running or stepping back. I just kinda hope the guys I spar with don't catch on to this other wise its back to the old drawing board :D

By the way, just for the record, These"guys" I spar with are twice my size and twice as fast and strong. :( Someday I will be able to spar guys my level:D

Gene Williams
16th May 2003, 21:27
Prince, I have a friend who is very high ranked in aikido. He says that the safest place to be when you are attacked is where the opponent is. I figure the closest karate equivalent to that is to stay right on his ass. By the way, size doesn't matter. I'm 6'3" and 215 and I have been driven to the wall by small guys. Gene

MarkF
17th May 2003, 10:27
Gene !

This statement you made "When in doubt, close with the opponent." was applied in last week's kumite. It Actualy works ! Closing in actualy was a lot safer than shuffling, running or stepping back.

I think Gene is a closet judoka. I don't know about the aikido player but it is pretty much the same thing in both. Aikido people just take a longer time explaining the principles, what he thinks OSensei really meant, and the dynamics of it while the judo guy says "CLOSE FAST AND THROW 'EM THROUGH THE FLOOR ALL THE WAY TO CHINA!"

The fifth throwing direction (assuming you count the other four as general directions, NSE&W): Throw 'em where you are.

The quickest way from point A to point B may be a straight line, but you may be eating a nicely thrown jab if you mean that literally.

The reason there are no feints/fakes is due to the smart fellow who has a plan B, C, and even D. However, in some cases it may be just the ticket to fake the guy into throwing a punch closely past your ear. A miss is a miss at any distance.


Mark

Gene Williams
17th May 2003, 11:32
Mark, Judo is the one thing I wish I had had the opportunity to train in as a supplement to karate. Everywhere I have lived, I have looked for a judo school and not found one. Good judo is hard to find, or at least it was in the South in the seventies and eighties. Gene

MarkF
17th May 2003, 12:21
Well, I wish I had studied some form of karate so we're even. It wasn't that it wasn't available, I was too busy fighting in every tournament I could find, so I didn't really do anything serious until fairly recently.

But I grew up in the Los Angeles area, and choices were the same as they are today, the difference is in names only (you know what I mean), David Chow, Gene LeBell. I've trained with both of those guys but they would have never made good long term teachers. I learned a lot from them, but I learned the most from sensei, one of the unknown.

As judo was what there was at that time, I could have gone almost anywhere and found good karate instruction, but that changed in a hurry. Sure, lots to chose from, well, anyway, I have the same regrets sometimes.

You just have good instincts when it comes to the martial way in general. "Closing" is the word in SD where judo is concerned. Earl Hartman made that actually plausible against someone with a sword, go for the body when the sword is raised or while it is still in the obi. Any other time, and you're under cellophane in the meat department.


Mark

Gene Williams
17th May 2003, 12:25
Damn, Mark! Go for the body while the sword is raised...now there is someone with ten pound stainless steel balls:smilejapa

sepai 85
18th May 2003, 04:43
What would I do against a strong kicker eh ? I think thats a great question and I had to think about it for a fair amount of time before I thought of an adequite answer. So as my opponent attacks with a kick I jam the kick and strike to the supporting knee (for a break)and then follow through with as many hand and feet techniques as possible, The reason for all the follow through techniques is survival in the sense that if your aggresive in your attacks then the bigger guy will have less chance to counter you.

never give up/keep fighting
yours in budo and shugyo

Kail
20th May 2003, 14:15
Blocking power with power can get you in trouble, limbs broken, balance lost etc. It can help to keep any blocking technique close to the body, for some reason, at least to me, it feels stronger if I'm tight in and have good body alignment. I just don't get banged up as much then, my forearms don't get beaten and bruised.

I have the previlage to train with a pro-kickboxer for a while. The man had power in his techniques that had nothing to do with raw muscle, he could kick like a mule and punch almost as hard. It took about one solid kick to turn back on skills I hadn't had to use in a quite a while. Changing the distance between myself and him when he was kicking is something I learned to do rather quickly. Before working with him I was very good at putting a block into the weak points of an attacking limb, the ankle and knee of a kick, the wrist or bicept of a punch{hitting the bi you have to check the lower part of the arm though or you'll end up eating some of the punch}. With the kickboxer though, I had to move in, or change my position relative to his centerline, and I often ended up body checking against his thighs before he could really extend the kicks that much.

Now I won't argue too much with you Gene about keeping the power technique as your focus if you want to win in a real fight, but I've had good results from a backfist. Its been a good weapon, breaking the nose of one guy and crossing the eyes or another. But, I always, always, always follow it up with a hard corss body reverse punch. Some folks just have more trouble dealing with an off angled backfist than they did a jab.

Jock Armstrong
21st May 2003, 01:14
Mark is right about closing on a weapon wielder- get inside the arc of the weapon and control it. [works the same as unarmed, like getting inside a kickers leg]. Tachi dori requires the unarmed guy to get inside the swordsmans cutting range, as he raises the blade to cut or sometimes to jam the sword in the scabbard before he can draw. Scary stuff but if you have no choice, with no escape route or lacking a .45..........

Shorite
26th May 2003, 21:01
Hello sir,
Regarding roundhose kicks, there are two ways that I know of to block one.
1) The thai boxing legblock or what i call "building the wall"
2) Any karate strike whether it be a "block" or a strike, aimed directly above the knee, which is the slowest part of the kick. when you strike there, it activates pressure points in the leg which temporarily stun your opponent.
Hope this helps.

Prince Loeffler
26th May 2003, 22:49
There is one technique that I am experimenting on. In lieu of using blocks from hard kickers, This technique is called Kyushu (Absorbing your opponents power.

Kyushu, is use primarily by the Enshin Karate group ( By Kancho Ninomiya's Group). Tony Manifold, I believed trained or trains with this group. Maybe, he can explained more.

I am not quite sure if the Kyokushin group are familiar with Kyushu for I have yet to see this within their style. I can safely assume that this would be Kancho Ninomiya's creation.

Anyway, to explain The Kyushu techniques briefly, I'll have to quote off the book by Kancho Ninomiya:



Kyushu is a technique for moving with your opponent as he attacks, in order to absorb his power and draw momentum without contact.

I'll get back to you and draw my conclusion to see if kyushu would work for me.

bruceb
7th June 2003, 19:29
I see no one has figured out why there are no such things as blocks.

The answer is simple.

What happens to your arm or leg when it is hit by a baseball bat?

Grievious injury, right?

So why would anyone want to learn to stop a baseball bat? You got me ... same reason round eyes were taught to block. Pretty funny when they break their arms and legs.

The Japanese were no fools..... after WWII, the foreigners have slaughtered the fathers, uncles, friends and neighbors of Japanese or Chinese teachers. You think they are going to teach these foreigners all their fighting secrets .... no way.

How stupid are these foreigners? Let's teach them blocks and see ....

I don't know .... how stupid are we?

Stop thinking in terms of blocks.

Make every block a technique, a strike, a deflection, a parry, a distraction for taking balance, or creating some type of pain, and you find .... there are no blocks. What people call blocks, is the simplicity of learning the movements for striking, parrying, or distraction.

Think about it ... try it.

Once you realize the comedy of calling those movements blocks, the comedy will keep you laughing every time you hear someone say that.

There is a whole 'nother use for all those movements called blocks ...... find 'em.

David Dunn
10th June 2003, 12:10
Sorry to jump in here. The Japanese verb `ukeru' means `to receive', unequivocally not `to block'. In my experience (in Shorinji Kempo) the goho uke waza consist of avoidances, parries, deflections, merging with the attack, early interventions, but no `blocks.' Misunderstandings led to many bruises, and I have seen a broken forearm as the result of attempting to block a powerful mawashi geri.

FWIW I think that to defend against keri, it is desirable to receive the attack before or after the point at which its maximum power is focussed and to move inside or outside its arc/line. Sticking your arm in the way of a kick at the moment that it is most powerful is perhaps not the wisest thing in the world. Easier said than done of course.

Prince Loeffler
10th June 2003, 16:55
Hi David,

Its an interesting post. I do agree on the part whereas Sticking your arm in the way of a kick is not the wisest thing in the world. There is a concept that a block can be construed as a stike.

I would never use a downward "block" at a round house kick, then again I would not attempt to use any open hand parries against kicks.

To make this short. I would just paraphase the bard. "A rose by any other name still smell just a sweet"

David Dunn
10th June 2003, 18:41
Prince, I guess it all falls into the 'what if?' category. In Shorinji Kempo we have hokei (set patterns), which include many defences against keri attacks. The closest to a block is against an attack to the 'nads, which is 'received' with the fist to the attackers instep.

All I can say is come and visit Mizuno Sensei in London. He could show you a multitude of strategies for dealing with keri attacks :D

Jock Armstrong
11th June 2003, 00:51
Actuall BB, a lot of karate schools DO teach hard blocking. Shotokan, kyokushin and Uechi ryu spring to mind [though Uechi instructors I've seen change them into parries and redirections later in the syllabus]. I don't myself but they do. Direct blocking for me is an absolute last resort.:beer:

Óscar Recio
13th June 2003, 12:54
This is a part from an interview with Kenji Ushiro, sensei of Shindo Ryu Karate, that was at the last Aiki Expo. This interview appeared on AIkido Journal.
PLEASE!!!! don´t try to extract mistical explanations; i am posting this just to add my 2 cents and talk about rigid blocking techniques, that means more or less another kind of strike, and how rigid techniques (inlcuding blocking) can change into non-hard blocking techniques. I think that most of us (i´ve got a Karate background too)suffered or practiced with HARD blocking techniques and, after reading all your replies (REALLY interesting. As we grow old we CAN´T use those kind of hard block momentum, this becomes the last option: stop the inertia of the icoming movement from 100 to 0...

Extract from Interview with Kenji Ushiro.
"In other words, at the first level, hatsugo-gango everything is about
hardness and rigidity, both inside and out. When your opponent punches, for
example, you react by blocking with some hard, rigid technique. Of course,
this usually results in a clash and tends to be painful for both of you.
Doing everything using such hard, rigid techniques is the first level.
At the second level, hatsugo-ganju, you take your first steps toward a
softer, more flexible approach, for example by slipping past your opponent's
technique and using various kinds of shifting movements. Outside there is
still hard rigidity, but inside you're developing a certain softness and
flexibility.

At the third level, hatsuju-gango, you have hardness within, but you
translate that into outward softness and flexibility. Throwing techniques
might be a good example; you receive and stop your opponent's attack with a
relatively stiff blocking technique, but then in the next instant shift into
the throw, which is necessarily a softer, more flexible movement.

At the fourth level, hatsuju-janju, you react to your opponent's attack with
softness and flexibility and maintain that state for the duration of your
response and counter-attack. From start to finish it will feel to the
opponent as if he is simply being lightly touched all over.

Finally, at the fifth and final level of hakki-gangoju, your opponent
attempts to attack, but you check, stop, or control him using your ki
(energy, intention)."

Óscar

Thank you.

Prince Loeffler
13th June 2003, 17:21
Thanks for the info Oscar. As I am not quite well versed in Aikido and its terminologies. If you don't mind, what exactly are:

1)hatsugo-gango ?
2)hakki-gangoju ?

Óscar Recio
13th June 2003, 17:59
As i said...is not Aikido Terminology, Kenji Ushiro is a KARATE sensei from Shindo Ryu, the interview appeared in Aikido Journal.
About the japanese terminolgy, i´m not at home right now, i need to check it.
Sorry
Óscar

Prince Loeffler
13th June 2003, 18:30
Originally posted by Óscar Recio
As i said...is not Aikido Terminology, Kenji Ushiro is a KARATE sensei from Shindo Ryu, the interview appeared in Aikido Journal.
About the japanese terminolgy, i´m not at home right now, i need to check it.
Sorry
Óscar

Hi Oscar,

Sorry, I didn't meant to link Aikido to the post.

MAGon
26th June 2003, 17:42
What happens to your arm or leg when it is hit by a baseball bat?

Funny that this should come up. I'd been debating with myself whether or not to share this anecdote as I read the thread (As you'll see, it doesn't put me in the most favorable light). The quote above made up my mind:
About twenty years ago, when I was doing my best to elevate IDIOCY to the level of genius (At the time, I thought of myself as a pretty well rounded Karateka. And I'd NEVER progressed beyond the 4th Kyu!!!) I managed to get myself into a set of circumstances which ended up with me bowed over after taking a baseball bat to the ribs (Wound up breaking only two of them. How's that phrase go about God loving fools and small children?). I looked up to see my coked- up opponent swinging the bat towards my head in a "splitting firewood" fashion. In what I can only describe as a "mushin flash" my intuitive mind told me that:
1. If that blow landed, I'd probably wind up dead.
2. I had ONE CHANCE, and one chance only, of surviving.
3. Evading would take too long from the akward position my body was in, the only thing I had a chance of getting in between my head and the bat fast enough to do some good was a jodan uke.
4. Better a broken arm than a split cranium.
5. My arm would have a better chance of taking the blow if I moved INTO the arc of the blow, where it would be weaker, and,
6. If I jodan uke- ed a la Japanese Karate (With the cubital bone only taking the brunt of the force), the most likely outcome would be a broken arm.

SOOOOOOOOOO... I wound up lunging in and executing an Isshin Ryu jodan uke (With the outward meaty side of the forearm as the blocking surface, where the muscles of the arm would cushion the bones somewhat and both the cubital and radial bones would take the force, instead of just the one). Suffice it to say that it worked, NEITHER of the bones were broken (The arm muscles were badly bruised, though, and hurt like hell for several weeks) and I was able to at least fight my way out of the situation (Proof of this is that I'm sitting here with enough brains intact to be able to write this. That ain't saying much, considering I didn't have enough to know I didn't want to get myself into that type of a situation to begin with!! Also, I'm not saying things ended with me as the conquering hero covered with glory. I was able to do enough to squeak by with just the two broken ribs to help me later on reflect on the error of my ways!!).
The lesson I took from the incident (Take it with a grain of salt, though. I think I've proven how much of an imbecile I can be!) is that the LAST thing I want to have to do is to block any kind of a blow. Better to evade, parry, redirect, evade and parry, etc., etc. ANYTHING but block. HOWEVER, as a last resort, a block WILL WORK, with some qualifiers.
Just my two quilos, for whatever it's worth.

Miguel Gonzalez

Óscar Recio
26th June 2003, 23:04
I agree completely with your opinion. That´s WHY i posted the words from Kenji Ushiro; to block is the LAST option...unluckily, sometimes the last options appears sooner. I prefer evade, parry, redirect, evade and parry, etc., etc.( using your own words, i´ll be paying to your lawyers the copyrights, ok...just kidding :D :D )
Regards,
Óscar

Sochin
26th June 2003, 23:17
Great story Miguel,

and I sympathise with whatever got you into that position as one who has done that, bin there but doesn't want to talk about it!!

:)

Jock Armstrong
27th June 2003, 01:10
Excellent point Escar!! Most folks forget that hard blocking, at least in Okinawan systems is taught first, as its easier to learn, and later as time passes you learn to deflect, become "softer" in your approach. I always knew I liked you buddy!!!:beer:

Óscar Recio
27th June 2003, 09:31
Due to my Karate background i know it by first hand.
The "hard block" menas to stop all the inertia of the movement from 100 to 0. Dang!!!!!! it hurts...but some people ONLY do this kind of "blocking". I´m not saying that hard blocking MUST be avoided, sometimes is the last option; and i prefer my forearm or whatever doing a hard block, even a knife stabbed on my forearm, that hitting me in my body...
Well...someone said to me: "to become soft in your techniques you must know how to be hard; there´s no soft by itself. BECOMING soft is the goal". JEEEEEESUS!!!!! seemed easy, but i swear, that it´s not really easy to become soft.:rolleyes:
That´s why i moved from Karate to Ju Jutsu; i still have atemi and blocking, punches, kicks....but, man, a new horizont appeared; soft blocking, redirection...bufffff...and as you growl old you CAN´T trust the whole thing in MUSCLES, you NEED to mix knowledge, momentum and technique...("God, i´m startting to talk just like yoda") :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Regards,
Óscar :smilejapa:

Casper Baar
27th June 2003, 11:29
Sounds alot like wado to me.
In wado-ryu karate you start with learning the basics of karate but the kihon-kumite soon starts to incorporate principles/ techniques taken from jujitsu/ kenjutsu.
Since these (jujutsu) techniques had to work against an armed person there is a lot of evading and redirecting and little or no hard blocking or conditioning to body to take a couple of hits and then give some back.
I believe all training should be done with someone in mind that's stronger and faster.

Have to go now, I'll elaborate later if someones interessted.

have a nice weekend,

Casper

MAGon
27th June 2003, 13:52
Great story Miguel,

and I sympathise with whatever got you into that position as one
who has done that, bin there but doesn't want to talk about it!!

Ted: Thanks for that! Believe me, it took a lot of soul searching to decide on whether or not to share that story, because (As you seem to imply happens to you, too) I'd just as soon forget that one as well as several others (Is it a sign of incipient wisdom, or just old age approaching, that I find myself flinching at some memories and shaking my head in wonder at how STUPID I've managed to be)!!!

MAGon
27th June 2003, 13:59
( using your own words, i´ll be paying to your lawyers the copyrights, ok...just kidding )
Regards,
Óscar

Oscar: Quote away, compañero!
By the way, if you run into my childhood friend Benny Bestard, give him a big abrazo from me!

Miguel González

Óscar Recio
27th June 2003, 14:24
It´s curious...
You mentioned Wado Ryu karate, in fact i practise Shindo Yoshin Ryu. Wado Ryu is deeply influenced by SYR ´cos the founder of Wado Ryu studied SYR and received a Menkyo License so....TADDA!!!!
Miguel,
in Mallorca? you´ve been living in Spain? Man, e-mail me and explain the whole story ´cos i´m a little bit confused,ok?
Regards,
Óscar :smilejapa

MAGon
27th June 2003, 15:12
Oscar: I just sent you an e- mail. Did you get it?
Regards,
Miguel González

Casper Baar
28th June 2003, 09:41
in fact i practise Shindo Yoshin Ryu.