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hobbitbob
12th May 2003, 19:39
The subject came up on another forum of the (apocryphal?) story of the naming of the two Kata.
The story I have heard is that a high ranking JKA instructor was competing and mis-stated the name of his Kata (either Gojushiho Dai or Sho, take your pick.). Because he outranked the judges the names of the Kata were changed from then on. Is this true? Does anyone know who was involved and when?
Thanks!

Sochin
12th May 2003, 22:17
Cool story - I never heard it before.

I'm in Denver next summer for Animal's BBQ. Do you do Gojushiho Sho? I'd love to see it.

hobbitbob
12th May 2003, 22:30
I've never learned Gojushiho Sho. Although, if the story is true, I do know Gojushiho Sho. :) It would be the Dai iteration that I didn't learn.
In Seibukan we do "Gojushiho," singular, which is vastly different form the Gojushiho Dai I learned. Many of the Seibukan Kata are vastly different from the Shotokan kata I did for two decades! It makes them even more interesting!

Gene Williams
12th May 2003, 22:30
There are a couple of different versions of Gojushiho. One has the odd "drunken man" movement (common to the Shorin ryu), the other does not. I suspect that dai and sho may be ways of distinguishing the two. For years I heard there were three Bassai... Dai, Sho, and Tomari Bassai. I finally learned that "Tomari Bassai" is merely the Tomari version of Bassai Dai. You will find this occurs many times with different versions of the same kata done a bit differently by the old guys or in different villages. Kosokun Dai is another kata with about a dozen variations. Gene

Gene Williams
12th May 2003, 22:47
No, there are actually two older versions of the same kata, Gojushiho, but I do not consider them two different kata. Gene

Gene Williams
12th May 2003, 23:11
And you should know that Shito-ryu is not Shorinji-ryu, whatever in the hell that is. Gene

hobbitbob
12th May 2003, 23:32
Originally posted by Gene Williams
And you should know that Shito-ryu is not Shorinji-ryu, whatever in the hell that is. Gene
Eh?

don
13th May 2003, 01:11
Originally posted by hobbitbob
The story I have heard is that a high ranking JKA instructor was competing and mis-stated the name of his Kata (either Gojushiho Dai or Sho, take your pick.). Because he outranked the judges the names of the Kata were changed from then on. Is this true? Does anyone know who was involved and when?
Thanks!

This is related at a very interesting (and critical) site http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/kata/gojushihosho.html

"It is not widely known that the kata have had their names reversed by the JKA. Normally, when there are two kata with the same name, one is the dai ("Big") kata and the other is the sho ("Small") kata. The sho kata is usually much shorter and more complicated, thus the name Gojushiho-Sho means "Small 54 Steps." If you examine these kata, it is pretty clear that they are not named properly. The Dai kata is small-scale and more complicated than the Sho kata. This is not in keeping with the other Dai-Sho pairings such as Bassai-Dai and Bassai-Sho or Kanku-Dai and Kanku-Sho.

"Originally, Gojushiho Dai was the name given to the more basic of the two. Containing many back stances and larger scale movements than the original Sho kata, this is the one believed to have been created first and the Sho kata was thought to be added later. However, it is rumored that in a JKA tournament some years ago, a now very high-ranking Ueki performed the Dai kata while accidentally calling out the name "Gojushiho-Sho!" in the last round of competition on National Television in Japan.

According to this story, the judges were befuddled, since the performance was perfect, about what to do with Ueki and his misnamed kata. Their solution: give Ueki first place, and switch the names of the two kata. So, today the karateka who outrank Ueki generally call the more basic kata Dai. However, most people in the JKA, and the Best Karate series of books refer to the more difficult kata as Dai and the easier kata as Sho. Is the story about Ueki true? Maybe not."

Gene Williams
13th May 2003, 01:22
Hi Don, You write as though Gojushiho is the property of the JKA, when it is actually a much older Okinawan kata. Funakoshi monkeyed around with all the Okinawan kata and changed not only some moves, but the entire spirit and strategy of the kata. Anyway, that was a pretty typical Japanese way of dealing with a difficult social situation. There are two distinct Okinawan versions of Gojushiho, one from Itosu and one, I believe, from Kyan. However, they are similar enough to be considered the same kata. Gene

Gene Williams
13th May 2003, 03:20
Shorinji-ryu is a modern style of karate founded by Hisataka Kori. The name has been misappropriated by a lot of modern wannabees. Shito-ryu is an Okinawan style of karate, which exploded around Osaka Japan when Mabuni moved from Okinawa and started teaching there in 1922. Though many mistakenly call it a Japanese style because of its popularity there, it really isn't. By the way, most of the seniors on this sight are not impressed by name dropping. By the way, Chotoku Kyan (1870-1945) founded Shobayashi Shorin-ryu and was a student of Itosu and Matsumura. You have your Shorin's and your Ji's mixed up. Gene

Sochin
13th May 2003, 03:47
Lee and Gene,

you guys kiss and make up or I will lock this thread until I get a pm that this has been done. We are not interested so don't wreck a good thread.

hobbitbob
13th May 2003, 05:14
In Seibukan (The Kyan lineage via Zempo Shjimabukuro) our Gojushiho bears some resemblance to the one done by Matsubayashi ryu.

Rob Alvelais
13th May 2003, 07:44
Originally posted by Gene Williams
There are a couple of different versions of Gojushiho. One has the odd "drunken man" movement (common to the Shorin ryu), the other does not.

JKA's Gojushiho Sho is virtually identical to Shito Ryu's Gojushiho. Nakayama, in Randall Hassel's book talks about being sent to Mabuni to Learn Gojushiho and Niseishi.



I suspect that dai and sho may be ways of distinguishing the two. For years I heard there were three Bassai... Dai, Sho, and Tomari Bassai. I finally learned that "Tomari Bassai" is merely the Tomari version of Bassai Dai. You will find this occurs many times with different versions of the same kata done a bit differently by the old guys or in different villages. Kosokun Dai is another kata with about a dozen variations. Gene

There are indeed several Bassai's Gene. Matsumura, Bassai Dai, Bassai Sho and Oyadomari, at least.

Rob

Rob Alvelais
13th May 2003, 07:49
I'm inclined to go along with Gene here. The Matsubayashi shorin Ryu Gojushiho is a bit different from the Shito Gojushiho. Matsubayashi Shorin ryu was heavily influenced by Kyan. the Shito Gojushiho comes from Itosu, via Mabuni. Or at least that's what we're told! ;-)

Rob



Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hi Don, You write as though Gojushiho is the property of the JKA, when it is actually a much older Okinawan kata. Funakoshi monkeyed around with all the Okinawan kata and changed not only some moves, but the entire spirit and strategy of the kata. Anyway, that was a pretty typical Japanese way of dealing with a difficult social situation. There are two distinct Okinawan versions of Gojushiho, one from Itosu and one, I believe, from Kyan. However, they are similar enough to be considered the same kata. Gene

Rob Alvelais
13th May 2003, 07:51
Originally posted by hobbitbob
In Seibukan (The Kyan lineage via Zempo Shjimabukuro) our Gojushiho bears some resemblance to the one done by Matsubayashi ryu.

That would make sense to me!

Rob

TimoS
13th May 2003, 08:05
Shorinji-ryu is a modern style of karate founded by Hisataka Kori. The name has been misappropriated by a lot of modern wannabees.

As far as I remember, Hisataka Kori founded Shorinji ryu kenkokan. Then there's also Okinawan Shorinji ryu, founded by Nakazato Joen and then of course Shorinji ryu renshinkan, founded by Tamotsu Isamu. Don't know if you consider them modern wannabees :)


By the way, Chotoku Kyan (1870-1945) founded Shobayashi Shorin-ryu and was a student of Itosu and Matsumura. You have your Shorin's and your Ji's mixed up. Gene

Wasn't Shobayashi founded by Eizo Shimabukuro, a student of Kyan sensei ? I thought that Kyan sensei never had an actual name for his style of karate...

Gene Williams
13th May 2003, 12:12
Hi Timo, Of course I do not consider Nakazato, etc. wannabees...I am reacting to the number of people I have met here who call what they do "Shorin-ji ryu", but it is only a lot of nonsense pulled from many styles. I have always associated Kyan with the beginnings of Shorin ryu...Nagamine, Eizo Shimabuku, Nakazato, Arakaki, all studied with him. But I have always been taught that Hisataka actually called it that. If I am incorrect, thanks for the information. Gene

TimoS
13th May 2003, 13:10
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hi Timo, Of course I do not consider Nakazato, etc. wannabees...I am reacting to the number of people I have met here who call what they do "Shorin-ji ryu", but it


Didn't suspect for a moment that you would. I've never met these kind of wannabees, but I guess those people are quite rare here in Finland, so I guess I'm fortunate in that sense :)


is only a lot of nonsense pulled from many styles. I have always associated Kyan with the beginnings of Shorin ryu...Nagamine, Eizo Shimabuku, Nakazato, Arakaki, all studied with him. But I have always been taught that Hisataka actually called it that. If I am incorrect, thanks for the information. Gene

I don't know much anything about these things myself. All I know is based on some webpages I've been reading and while some pages seem to imply that Kyan named his style Shobayashi Shorin ryu, some say directly that Kyan never named his style.

As for the different Shorinji ryu's in existense, we've been taught that there are 3 that are practised in Japan:
- Shorinji ryu Kenkokan (Hisataka)
- Okinawan Shorinji ryu (Nakazato)

and last (but certainly not least, at least from my point of view) :)

- Zen Nippon Shorinji ryu Renshinkan (Tamotsu)

So if Kyan never named his style, why do many of the styles that originated from him in one way or another have Shorin(ji) in their name ? I've often wondered about that and I don't remember reading anywhere anything conclusive about that. Anybody with better info than I have (that should include just about anybody) ?

Gene Williams
13th May 2003, 15:20
Do you think they called it that because it came from the Chinese Shaolin and they just generally referred to it by the Okinawan name for that? I get the impression from the number of similar ryu that use Shorin in their names that it was almost a generic term to them for anything from China. Thanks. Gene

don
13th May 2003, 22:00
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hi Don, You write as though

Nope. Not me. I was quoting the site.