Kata not useful aside from carbo exercise?

[Vapour]

I came across Shotokan planet. Great site and fun to read even though I don't do karate at all.

The author seems to think that kata is useless.

"Kata today are an anachronistic, antique training method left over from the days when karate was more of an art like jujutsu that involved arm bars, joint locks, nerve strikes, and other entangling, grappling, non-Shotokan fighting methods."

"The kata were handed down from the past, and being Japanese with a strong sense of historical connection to the past, they could not allow a tradition to be tossed aside out of pragmatism. So, they paid homage to history by doing kata at the end of training, just not as much as before. As time went by and better training methods for learning to win sparring matches were found, the kata were practiced less and less."

"That doesn't mean that there is no value in kata as performance art. There is a lot of value there that can be harvested from the practice of kata. But it does mean that most of us think that the kata are mostly just that: dances that we perform when we have to test for a belt. And, it also means that in order to be really good at sparring, kata is not the way to go. Kata were not designed to take you in that direction. Kumite is a new direction for karate, and it is best trained for by practicing kumite drills of increasing complexity."

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/kata/03_purpose.html

Any comment?

[Gene Williams]

Probably just too lazy to work on his kata, so he doesn't like them.

[sepai 85]

Kata is the most important aspect ever to your karate training. Kata has bunkai (includimg ju jitsu oyo) and dachi waza as well as tsuki waza uchi waza and keri waza not to mention uke waza. You need karate for kata and you need kata for karate plain and simple. Without your kata your knowledge is bruttally limited.

yours in shugyo

[Vapour]

"it is best trained for by practicing kumite drills of increasing complexity."

Considering above comment, what he seems to be saying is that doing simple drilling of technique including combo is far more efficient method of training than doing long kata which has so many technique that one can hardly focus on particular technique.

You can simply train for various technique by doing separate drill for each technique. Since kata lack focus, you are merely training for flexibility and athletism of wushu kind.

Can one confidently say that perfoming, say 20 technique in sequece 100 times for prolonged period is better than doing drill works for each 20 technique separately 100 times? And remeber that one can train combo in drill work as well and this in fact provide much variation of combo than fixed sequence of kata performance.

Kata trainig is not totally useless but one could say that it is inferior to single technique or combo drilling. So should one forget kata and do technique drilling only?

And I say it again. I don't do karate so I'm just curious as to what people would say.

Any comment?

[Sochin]

Like everything else, you will find a full spectrum of ideas about kata from the worst to the best...

Been done, perhaps check the Archives.

[Gene Williams]

I think a lot of you do not understand kata or its purpose, and I am not going to try to explain it. You are supposed to train in both kata and multiple repetitions of single technique. They complement each other very well. You are also supposed to actually train with a live opponent who punches, kicks, grabs, and takes you to the mat. If all you ever do is punch the air and "think" about what you would do if...then you don't get it either. Gene

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
I think a lot of you do not understand kata or its purpose, and I am not going to try to explain it. You are supposed to train in both kata and multiple repetitions of single technique. They complement each other very well. You are also supposed to actually train with a live opponent who punches, kicks, grabs, and takes you to the mat. If all you ever do is punch the air and "think" about what you would do if...then you don't get it either. Gene

As everyone know, in judo and aikido, we mainly do single technique or combo kata, which we then try it out in randori or kokyu undo. So I assume that you are saying that there are more to kata than training for technique, flexibility or coordination, which can be trained by merely doing solo/partner drill works or streching routine.

I'm extremely interested in what that is.

[hobbitbob]

I tend to take everything I find on Mr. Redmond's site with a large rock'o'salt! He is great when it comes to historical material, but seems very bitter about his study of Karate and about his experiences in Japan. I don't know the man, but I would be leery of some of his sweeping pronouncements.

[Vapour]

Long sequence kata being useless are opinion shared by many. It's particularly accute in MMA circle. So he is not unique in saying though not totally useless, kata training is obsolete due to the availability of better training method.

Having said it, long sequence kata is indeed common in Kung Fu and South East Asian arts. Japanese weapon arts has long sequence kata as well. So I'm wondering whether there are something more in kata than "It's train your technique, flexibility and coordination" which I find it to be unsatisfactory because I think partner/solo drill and streching routine is far better in this aspect.

[Vapour]

As of the guy's sweeping comment about Japan, some of them were indeed due to his inexperience (after all he stayed there only 2 years) but some of them are soooo true I had to laught out loud.

[Kevin73]

I might have to agree with Shotokan's kata. Remember Gichin Funakoshi took the tradtional kata and changed them to make them safe for school children and easier to learn. Also, his son admits that some of the changes were to make it more aesthetic.

That said I think that when kata is trained properly it is a very valuable part of training

[Nyuck3X]

When reading articles like this, you need to understand the author's point of view.

Mr. Redmond trained in a style at a time when self discovery was
more important than the intent of the activity. He became
dissatisfied with the status quoe and began his search for the
truth. From what I've heard, he has done a great deal to fill
in the gaps that Shotokan neglected at the time. I understand
his frustration but I think, had he trained under another sensei,
maybe the likes of Oyata Sensei, he may have a different opinion.
This seems to be why I see alot of Shotokan players go over to
Wado and Shito-ryu. More combat oriented.

I don't believe kata is the end all, but I do feel it has
it's place and value. I think it's important that you define what
you want to get out of your training, and find a teacher who can
teach you what you want to know, be it self-discipline or
practical fighting.

Peace...

[hobbitbob]

Originally posted by Nyuck3X


This seems to be why I see alot of Shotokan players go over to
Wado and Shito-ryu. More combat oriented.






Or, in my case, Shorin Ryu. :D

[Gene Williams]

I did a seminar for a Shotokan school this past weekend (they are thinking of joining our organization and doing Shito-ryu.):D I must say, though, that it did my heart good to see that old JKA oi zuki once again...long deep zenkutsu, aggressive punching. I still have my students learn Taikyoku (I learned them in Wado)because I love that oi zuki! These folks had nice kata and strong technique. I do believe that Shito-ryu and some of the other Okinawan ryu are more combat oriented, but then there is Nishiyama, who was one of the best and strongest karateka I have ever seen. Pretty or not, I would not want to be on the receiving end of any JKA senior's oi zuki:( Gene

[hobbitbob]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
I did a seminar for a Shotokan school this past weekend (they are thinking of joining our organization and doing Shito-ryu.):D I must say, though, that it did my heart good to see that old JKA oi zuki once again...long deep zenkutsu, aggressive punching. I still have my students learn Taikyoku (I learned them in Wado)because I love that oi zuki! These folks had nice kata and strong technique. I do believe that Shito-ryu and some of the other Okinawan ryu are more combat oriented, but then there is Nishiyama, who was one of the best and strongest karateka I have ever seen. Pretty or not, I would not want to be on the receiving end of any JKA senior's oi zuki:( Gene
Sun-Dome: To stop the punch one sun (three centimeters) inside the opponents skull! :D

[Vapour]

I missspelt cardio with carbo. E-budo won't allow reedit. Hey, Engrish does not mine strong point.

[Nyuck3X]

Hey, aint this english I'm talk'n???

If this is your second language, kudos to you bubbba...
It's my mother tongue and I still have problems.:D

[Kimura]

Troof Quotes:Welcome to E-budo your a newbie like me.



Yeah right!! and I am Snow White and the seven dwarfs.


Hector Gomez:p

[Goju Man]

You are a newbie like me

Me too. :D

[Gene Williams]

Hi, I'm new here. My name is Muchoboca, but you can just call me Machimuraboca, or Troofboca. :D

[wendy ongaro]

Yes, and I'm a newbie too.

In college I practiced a funky little backwoods conglomeration of kyokushin and kokondo with a little jujitsu thrown in. The instructor was adamant about the benefits of kata. We did the taikyokus and the pinans. We also did some older versions of Bassai, Bassai-dai, tencho, naifanchis, etc. What was interesting, was when we blackbelts would do ten-on-ones (10 people circle you, someone yells Hajime, and they try to dog pile you all at once). Suddenly I would find myself doing portions of different kata without even thinking about it. They would just come out subconsciously. We also did alot of one step and two step drills for sparring, but for whatever reason, the longer kata just seemed to prime my subconscious a little better than the shorter versions, especially when I was under stress. It was really interesting.