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TimoS
13th May 2003, 16:40
I was reading about Eizo Shimabukoro and on one site this caught my eye:


Because Master Shimabukoro maintained the traditions and excellence of Shorin-ryu after Master Kyan's death, in 1959 Kangen Toyama, President of the All Japan Karatedo League and founder of Shudokan Karate, promoted him to tenth degree black belt. Kangen Toyama also appointed Master Shimabukoro the chairman, Okinawan Headquarters, of the All Japan Karatedo League. Two years later, in 1961, at the age of 36, he was awarded the tenth degree red belt, the youngest man ever to attain this status.

So what's the difference between a 10. degree black belt and 10. degree red belt ? I had always thought that they were basically one and the same in those systems that use the red belt. Just curious, that's all...

Sochin
13th May 2003, 19:32
Since there is no standardization, you should probably write to the organisation itself and ask them,

then tell us here! :)

Gene Williams
13th May 2003, 20:10
When I studied Wado, the highest belt was godan. Then they decided since everyone else gave 8 dan, they should, too. Then the honorary thing started. Next, voila...a whole bunch of Mickey Mouse belts.
The only place they mean anything is within very orthodox ryu, where standards are maintainable, and even these have slipped. With the exception of the old guys who were given honorary dan by legit Japanese and Okinawan organizations, in this country the higher rank above 8th dan someone tells me they are, the more I am inclined to doubt their ability unless I see it. Gene

TimoS
14th May 2003, 06:18
Originally posted by Sochin
Since there is no standardization, you should probably write to the organisation itself and ask them,

then tell us here! :)

Hey, that's a very good idea :) I think I'll do it, that is, if I'm not feeling too lazy later today (which is something that tends to happen quite often) :)

14th May 2003, 06:24
Red 10th and Black 10th are basically the same. The red belt is more of a ceremonial belt you'd wear in special ocassions.

Typically in Okinawa you work and test to your 5th degree and after that promotions are based on time, contributions to the art, how involved you are in politics, and sadly enought how big your clan is and how much clout you have accumulated over the years.

MarkF
14th May 2003, 08:33
Kangen Toyama also appointed Master Shimabukoro the chairman, Okinawan Headquarters, of the All Japan Karatedo League. Two years later, in 1961, at the age of 36, he was awarded the tenth degree red belt, the youngest man ever to attain this status.

How does one attain any status if it is awarded? Isn't this another way of saying "honorary?"


With the exception of the old guys who were given honorary dan by legit Japanese and Okinawan organizations, in this country the higher rank above 8th dan someone tells me they are, the more I am inclined to doubt their ability unless I see it. Gene

I know this is out of my league, in regard to grading in the different karate organizations, so my questions are asked out of curiousity and to learn how this works in these organizations. Certainly, there are exceptions to the general rule in being given high rank, but in general, I agree with Gene here, with the caveat that I may not understand how it is given/earned/awarded/honored with grade to someone outside of Judo. Actually, outside of Japan I am skeptical of most grades above godan. In those organizations which represent judo, the US and other western countries are much more conservative in this than is Japan. In general, most judo fighters retired with a grade of godan and were awarded 6-dan for making it that far, though many do continue to compete well after that, a few into their seventies.

I don't think I've heard of the All-Japan Karatedo League until now. Is it accepted in the same way as is the JKA?

If this awarded 10-dan is related to the original dan-I system of grading, 9-dan, 10-dan and 11-dan are typically awarded a red belt. Most choose not to wear it in the every day motions in the dojo where it probably isn't necessary (no-one has been awarded anything over 10-dan, I'm stating the fact that there was room through 12-dan, and higher grades were also to be allowed for, in the old days). This would be Kodokan Judo grade.

I don't know how old, but the quickest trip to shodan was three months, and to godan, two years by the same man. In those days, one had to fight five guys of those grades and beat them all, mostly by throwing them.

I apologize if this is out of my knowledge base, but they all basically come from the same roots. I also know many have modified it.


Mark

Gene Williams
14th May 2003, 12:28
Mark, In our organization, godan is the highest rank awarded on sheer ability, and the last rank we actually test for. 6th - 8th dan are given based upon further contributions to the ryu and the art in general such as teaching and producing quality students, helping with administratve and organizational projects, doing seminars and clinics, and just time in the arts. You don't quit learning, but it is just that it seems silly to be testing for those high dan ranks;) In our ryu, you are looking at 15-20 years to godan, anyway. We do not promote to shodan under 16 years old. You know, I have just always thought that claiming all this high rank (those who really have it rarely talk about it), wearing fancy belts with 20 stripes on them, and gi with 27 patches, just screams, "Hey, look at me!" I just always wonder who they are trying to convince. One time at a clinic back in the seventies, Kunibalistened to a bunch of dan arguing about rank and the discussion that followed. He disappeared for a while, then walked back in with belts tiedon his body from his waist to his shoulders:D "O.K., how many dan am I now." Gene

Goju Man
14th May 2003, 12:50
The red belt is more of a ceremonial belt you'd wear in special ocassions.
I had a red belt in the seventies.:D It matched well with my marshmallows.:D

Gene Williams
14th May 2003, 16:05
I was given one of those six inches white, six inches red belts by our organization so that "everyone will know who the seniors are at seminars, etc.":D The first time I wore it, one of my smart ass seniors told me I looked like a barber pole. I quit wearing it. If a plain black belt was good enough for Funakoshi, Mabuni, Kuniba, etc. it ought to be good enough for everybody. "It ain't the belt that knocks the guy down." Gene

Goju Man
15th May 2003, 00:21
If a plain black belt was good enough for Funakoshi, Mabuni, Kuniba, etc. it ought to be good enough for everybody. "It ain't the belt that knocks the guy down." Gene
Haleiluyah! Can I get a witness?:D
A friend of mine once posted a good article called "The Belt Is In The Ring" which was pretty good.

hobbitbob
15th May 2003, 00:39
Originally posted by Gene Williams
I was given one of those six inches white, six inches red belts by our organization so that "everyone will know who the seniors are at seminars, etc.":D The first time I wore it, one of my smart ass seniors told me I looked like a barber pole.
Barber, eh? Does that mean that the 20 year olds I see with them are also claiming to be surgeons?
:D

Goju Man
15th May 2003, 01:52
Barber, eh? Does that mean that the 20 year olds I see with them are also claiming to be surgeons?
I think too much importance is placed on rank these days. It's like a status symbol. Most of them are way short of that perceived skill level. Kinda like a barber pole.:D

Gene Williams
15th May 2003, 01:58
Giving a high dan belt to a 20 year old is like handing a guy a gallon of jet fuel for his Harley...he's really gonna' look stupid getting killed:D Gene

Goju Man
15th May 2003, 02:01
Giving a high dan belt to a 20 year old is like handing a guy a gallon of jet fuel for his Harley...he's really gonna' look stupid getting killed Gene
Got a light to go with that?:redhot: :D

sepai 85
16th May 2003, 02:58
IS the belt just plain red ? or is it red and white ? If it is red and white it signifies shihan ranking

CEB
18th May 2003, 14:59
Originally posted by TimoS
I was reading about Eizo Shimabukoro and on one site this caught my eye:
So what's the difference between a 10. degree black belt and 10. degree red belt ? I had always thought that they were basically one and the same in those systems that use the red belt. Just curious, that's all...
I don't know about that stuff but I know the differences between Karate and Sex.

10 Major Differences Between Karate and Sex:
1. Even ugly Karate-ka score regularly.

2. In Karate you have a Sensei to tell you what you're doing wrong, and you get to practice first before trying it out for real.

3. You can practice Karate with strangers without getting a bad reputation and you don't have to spend $50 in the bar getting to know them first.

4. You are not being insulting if you insist that your Karate partner wear protective gear.

5. No one expects a Karate bout to last much longer than two minutes and you don't have to worry afterwards if the other Karate-ka enjoyed it or not.

6. In Karate you don't have to get your own equipment until you decide whether or not you like it.

7. You usually practice Karate in a big, brightly lit room with lots of people in it.

8. The person you're practising Karate with won't mind if your buddies stand around and cheer for you.

9. It is almost impossible to catch a disease from a kata.

10. Finally, and perhaps most significantly, in Karate if your opponent doesn't come, you win.

Gene Williams
18th May 2003, 17:03
#11: Most of us use a full size bo, Ed uses a little hanbo:D

Samurai am I
22nd May 2003, 03:22
Originally posted by Gene Williams
I was given one of those six inches white, six inches red belts.....Gene

I thought that the red and white belt was only for judo...

sepai 85
6th June 2003, 19:52
The shihan ranking can as far as I know be seen in most of the Japanese martial arts.

Prince Loeffler
7th June 2003, 09:21
Originally posted by Gene Williams
#11: Most of us use a full size bo, Ed uses a little hanbo:D

Now...Now, Gene, Remember its not the size of Bo that counts rather how much power, precision and oh...How loud your Kiai's are, that matters:D :D :D

MAGon
21st June 2003, 21:08
Gents:
Quick question: While a guest at a Dojo in another city, and of a "ryu" differnet than mine, I noticed the shihan (A Japanese) wore a curious variant of the red- white color combination obi meant for senior dans: The outer coloring of the belt was plain black, the inner was striped red and white. I found the symbolism interesting, but never mind that. What I'm interested in is knowing if this is widespread in Karate and other arts, or could it just be particular to this style. I confess not ever having seen it before or since.
This is just idle curiosity, guys. I won't mind being ignored.

Miguel A. Gonzalez

Gene Williams
22nd June 2003, 21:21
I have never seen quite that combination, Miguel. Again, the red/white belt thing is over done. Kano began it as a way to distinguish the senior dan at huge shiai where ther might be 200 competitors. It moved to karate at some point in Japan, then to Okinawa to a lesser degree. In the West, it has become a mickey mouse ego thing to wear a red and white belt, or whatever, to advertise your rank. The only real purpose of those belts is for use at large gatherings where no one knows who the high dan are. It is customary to determine someone's rank by the quality of their karate, not by what they are wearing. Gene

Goju Man
23rd June 2003, 00:23
I noticed the shihan (A Japanese) wore a curious variant of the red- white color combination obi meant for senior dans: The outer coloring of the belt was plain black, the inner was striped red and white.
Miguel, I've seen that combination worn by fifth dans.:)

MAGon
23rd June 2003, 14:37
Originally posted by Goju Man

Miguel, I've seen that combination worn by fifth dans.:)

Manny: Thanks for the feedback. Which style/system was it?

Gene: Amen to that!!!

RobertW
23rd June 2003, 19:25
Okinawan systems dress belt systems run (genaerally of course) like this, red + white stripe 7th and 8th Dan Kyoshi, Red for 9th and 10th Dan Hanshi. I think it is up to the wearer what he wants. I notice my teacher wearing red and white and sometimes Black (he is 8th Dan Kyoshi). I asked what the difference was once, and got this response -"Doesn't care".

Goju Man
24th June 2003, 00:19
Manny: Thanks for the feedback. Which style/system was it?

Goju, I've seen other japanese styles, don't know if they were Goju though.

Kevin Meisner
3rd July 2003, 23:37
A tenth degree is a tenth degree, different organizations use different belts to represent it, the standard is either black or red in karate.

Our school eliminated belt ranks...

Kevin73
5th July 2003, 02:48
I always called the red/white belt the "cat in the hat belt", which is what it reminded me of.

For most karate styles, the wider red belt is used to denote higher rank. BUT, I know some styles a red belt (normal width) is a beginners belt.

So who knows and who cares really, to me I don't care what belt you have on my only question is "what can I learn from you?"

Richard Horrowi
5th July 2003, 12:38
Miyama Ryu Jujutsu founder Antonio Perrera created his own obi (belt) after putting his system together. It is a red and black belt. I've seen other Jujutsu systems wear different and odd colored belts as well.

Doesn't Judo Gene Lebell wear a Pink Belt?

Richard Horowitz

Richard Horrowi
6th July 2003, 02:03
Could have sworn he wore a pink belt with his pink Gi, maybe not but he's a tuff cookie. He'd probably make me shite myself.

Richard Horrowitz

Iron Chef
6th July 2003, 02:12
I think it might be both. The belt I think is bright pink or red. But I know he wears a pink uniform. I have him on tape with Oleg Taktarov in his outfit I see what it is.

doryoku
6th July 2003, 12:58
Gene was recently honored with a 13th degree blackbelt.I think this was a "gag" promotion but the man is awesome.Those who have trained under him are lucky. He is an icon in the martial arts World.