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hector gomez
16th May 2003, 13:46
IS SPEED FROM A DISTANCE


Let me explain,This of course is only my opinion and I really believe it is an unbiased one due to the fact that I don't even train in shotokan anymore and could really care less in trying to defend it's status one way or another way.


It is my opinion that a lot of staunch traditional karate practicioners and intructors alike have jumped on this "Let's rip Funakoshi Shotokan Bandwagon",besides it is only a watered down version meant to be taught to school kids.

Evidence of this can be seen in tsunami videos"What is Karate part 1 & 2 as the blatant prejudices against shotokan can be seen out right.

Funakoshi IMO was to karate very much what Jigoro Kano was to judo a person with a vision to popularize the art of okinawan Te and make it popular among the masses along with emphasising the benifits of character developments and spiritual well being.


Funakoshi definitely had his detractors just like Kano did at the beggining with judo. A very interesting thing happened with the nucleous that Funakoshi created,All of the sudden we had large masses of people training and although that might seem like a bad thing to some,it definintely amplified the competition level enourmosley, all of the sudden trying to stand out in a 3000 student plus college seems to me a lot harder than trying to make a splash in a small village.


Competition always creates the bar to be lifted higher,YES now the stances were a little lower but practicioners were now striking from a farther distance with a lot more speed and acuracy.

For better or for worse getting hit from a distance became an issue that most all styles had to deal with, cat stances,neko,zenkutso all stances have their place in combat for sure but for the first time in karates history and fueled by competition we had to adapt to deal with speed from a distance.



Hector Gomez


PS:This thread does not have to turn ugly.we can disscuss this like Gentlemen.
:toast:

Gene Williams
16th May 2003, 14:30
Hector, I have a fondness for Shotokan because I have known many really good karateka from that tradition and because I trained in Wado for about three years way back in the sevsnties, and Wado iwas developed from Shotokan to some extent. I do share the Okinawan karate view that Funakoshi changed a lot of things and that he sometimes threw out the baby with the bath water, but I do not think it is appropriate to rip Funakoshi. You are correct about speed from a distance being a JKA strength...I still use punching and movement drills I learned in Wado to train myself and my students. I have travelled a lot visiting other schools and doing some seminars, and on trips I always check out the local karate schools. I also took part in tournaments:rolleyes: from around 1972-1984. I must say that, all in all, Shotokan students stack up pretty well in terms of kata and conditioning. A lot of Japanese sword philosophy sneaked into JKA, i.e. one strike one kill, fairly straight lines, an emphasis on aesthetics, etc. Like I said in another thread, I would not want to be on the receiving end of any JKA senior's oi-zuki. Gene

Ginko
16th May 2003, 14:37
Hector,

Karate would not have the worldwide appeal that it enjoys today if Shotokan & the JKA had not been around. Also, I would like to see how a lot of the Shotokan-bashers would fare matched up against the likes of Kanazawa, Enoeda, Nishiyama, etc. They were superb fighters & karate-ka.

Margaret Lo
16th May 2003, 16:07
He was a sight to behold. He was also a huge HAM and loved to sing. As a teacher, he was formidable, exciting and convincing. His black belt kumite classes would have you foaming at the mouth with fighting spirit. Imagine an entire gym of young black belts roaring away and attacking each other at top speed. Whew, I'll miss him this summer at camp.

I think the thing that also distinguished JKA karate was the strong teaching corp that held together for a long long time (1950s - 1990s) before factional fighting split it.

As a result you have a really deep base of good teachers, the first generation of Japanese overseas and their senior non-Japanese students who often have the same degree of validity: witness KUGB's Brennan, O'Neil, Sherry etc.... Even after the JKA split, the JKA style dominates shotokan.

In contrast, other styles failed to develop a consistent body of teachers, and a steady standard of training. As a result, they faded away, splintered and left students unable to participate in or perpetuate a style. What purpose then their great repertoire of combat skills if the school dies or is obscured?

Anyhow, bashing a style makes no sense, it's always the skill of the individual that counts. Would anyone want to face Mike Tyson despite his "limited" repertoire compared to some karate styles? :D Though in my dream match, Mr. Enoeda could have taken him on in his prime.
M

hector gomez
16th May 2003, 16:10
Gene & Jay,Margaret

Thank you for the well thought out responses,I know that all of you are dedicated to your art and these type of threads can lead to internet flame wars but I really think that some of these issues can be disscussed inteligently without squable,even thou we all have different points of view,It's all good.


Here is a thought that has haunted me for some time.....Shotokan practicioners are routinely questioned about not knowing the true bunkai or interpretation of certain katas.Was it really that hard to obtain this info?or were some practicioners preocupied with dealing with a new dilema now faced with the new karate movement?

Was the speed factor from a distance now starting to make a 3 step bunkai application seem impractical?

Was the nucleous of shotokan movement now training in kata for other practical benifits aside from just the self defense portion?Is that such a bad thing,doesn't a lot of chineese arts train in forms for other great benifits aside from just the fighting applications?



Enjoy,sent to me by an old shotokan friend
http://marinshotokan.com/yoshitaka%20funakoshi.htm

Hector Gomez

Gene Williams
16th May 2003, 16:51
It could be argued that no one knows the true bunkai to anyone's kata in that no one can really know the originator's initial intent, except in the few cases where it is either obvious or we have a direct line of transmission. However, I would argue that the Okinawan styles are more application oriented, in general, than JKA. On the other hand, if you have that devastating Shotokan oi zuki, gyaku zuki, and mae geri along with their explosive movement, do you really need much else? I still remember the Shotokan Heian and, although I rarely do them, I can see after 30 years in Shito-ryu that, although they are recognizably the same kata as the Pinan, there are major differences in the spirit of the kata. But, it is not helpful to argue that one is better than the other. Everyone should believe in their art and feel loyalty to it. Any style can teach you how to defend yourself and any style can develop a strong spirit. Nishiyama was one of the greatest karateka I ever saw, by the way. Gene

CEB
16th May 2003, 17:18
Originally posted by hector gomez
...
Was the speed factor from a distance now starting to make a 3 step bunkai application seem impractical?
...


No. The purpose of the 3 steps is to provide extra time and a little more insurance that your novice students won't get their face broke in the course of kumite practice. I think it is still a practical training method for students. Note this reasoning only applies in a dojo where you are still expected to really punch. Otherwise none of it practical anymore.

tmanifold
16th May 2003, 22:02
From what I have read Shotokan as practiced by Funakoshi Sensei and Shotokan as practiced by his son(s) was quit different. Where Funakoshi was more into the budo aspect, his sons where more into sparring and competing.

With all that said, I think shotokan, when taught properly has almost all the tools for effective self defence. Look at the kata in Karate do Kyuhan (I spelled that wrong I am sure) and compare it to the kata seen in most dojos. The side kicks are low stomps for the most part or at most a midsection side snap kick. People don't practice that way any more, they throw all the kicks High. I remember reading about a guy from south africa that was going for his 7th dan test and due to a hip replacement he had to change the kata back to the original with the low kicks. The article said that because of that he was unsure as to wether the JKA would accept the kata.

I could go on for along time about the things that aren't taught properly in most shotokan dojos but suffice to say there are alot that are not taught according to Funakoshi's writings at least. The thing of most benefit that I took away from shotokan? Probably using a wide stance and hip shift to develop tremendous power.

tmanifold
16th May 2003, 23:26
Thanks. I try and stay in reality when ever possible, all though I often have to combat my tendancey to think I am living in some low budget martial arts flick. Maybe sometime soon I will post some short stories/scenes I wrote about my wonderings in to Self defence nevernever land.

Bustillo, A.
17th May 2003, 00:14
Tsunami productions video are good quality professional tapes. The tape Hector mentions, 'What is Karate I & II' highlights several Okinawan instructors and their influence in Japan. The tape is a good historical summary yet it is obvious that it leans a little too hard on Funakoshi.

Past and present, mnay non-shotokan stylist like to dwell on the faults of Funakoshi's effect. In some cases perhaps they have good reason. Fine. However, in many areas non-shotokan stylist have followed Shotokan's lead.

Shotokan training has produced many top-notch karateka. And many of them were experienced martial artist before ever taking up shotokan , so it is easy to understand why the original karate training methods changed. And, by the way, for those who are not aware... not all shotokan is the JKA brand. i.e. There are several schools where the main influence stems from Yoshitaka's training methods.

On the topic of stances and techniques.
Yoshitaka incorporated the low stances to make the training in class more difficult, not for fighting. He advised to fight positioned in a higher stance. The emphasis on using the blinding speed long range Road Runner-beep-beep-- techniques he recommended for short statured practioners. Other practioners may have adopted the tactic after encountering former judo men.

Kimura
17th May 2003, 08:00
Antonio,


You mention Yokoshita incorporating the low stance to make training class more difficult,Great point.I believe it can also enhance a strong base and leg development,although I would not advise it for actual real fighting as it does not allow one to change directions effectively and also does not leave you in a great position to attack after a initial attack.

While on the subject of Leg stances and physics,it is common sense that a low stance greatly enhances your speed and projection foward.This is one reason that we see most karate tournament players utilizing a low stance.There is no better stance than a low stance in order to propel one foward to make an initial attack while covering great distance in getting from point A to point B.


On the down side of a low stance one can easily be swept or kicked low and balance can easily be disrupted,along with making combinations striking that much harder to achieve.This is why continuos contact sports like Muaythai,boxing or kickboxing utilize a more upright position they have to be ready to respond incase that One strike kill does not work,which usually does not work in a continuos contact match.


Getting back to the main thread issue here inorder not to drift too much.SPEED can be a big neutralizer in preventing people from pulling off 3 or 4 strike combinations,typically found in a kata sequence(calm down guys here me out),there are gifted fighters out there so quick that they are either in striking range or in a clinching range there is really no in between for some of these guys.


I am not just talking about sports here,I am talking about a real physical dynamic live street encounter.Most fighters are either in a striking mode from a distance or in a clinch mode once they are within close contact.



If I may use a sport analogy inorder to prove this probable street theory,Take Boxing for example compared to Muaythai,In boxing clinching is frowned upon and not usually allowed therefore fighters are able to get off 3 to 4 punch combinations without getting clinched and even this requires a "serious economy of motion" in order for it to be succesful.Now look at Muaythai were clinching is allowed there is hardly any combinations pulled off beyond 2 without a clinch neutralizing all other strikes.



Hector Gomez

CEB
17th May 2003, 12:30
Originally posted by Kimura
....

Getting back to the main thread issue here inorder not to drift too much.SPEED can be a big neutralizer in preventing people from pulling off 3 or 4 strike combinations,typically found in a kata sequence(calm down guys here me out),there are gifted fighters out there so quick that they are either in striking range or in a clinching range there is really no in between for some of these guys.

....

Hector Gomez

This is what you meant by 3 step bunkai isn't it? Sorry. In our one step kumite we will have the attacking person take 3 steps. 1, sanchin step, 2. sanchin step, 3 zenkutsu lunge attack. then the defender counters. That is the type of thing I thought you meant. You have a good point. I don't know. I practice combinations in the dojo but in my last street encounter it took only one. Sometimes I'm lucky.

Kimura
17th May 2003, 15:06
Ed,

Yes that is basically what I meant.The physical dynamics of a fight with no rules will most often not let you get into a sparring match on the streets most of the time.This is something that is constantly stressed by traditional practicioners when they ridicule combat sports.


Although I agree to a certain extent,using this same analogy how does one expect to get off a certain series of complicated movements similar to the ones that are found in most prearanged katas?which may I add have not been revamped in the last 100 years to econimize movement.


When a attacker is commited on clinching your first or second attack you have to be real effective or else clinching becomes a real big posibility and that's the real troof.


Hector Gomez


PS:I know I am not going to make a lot of friends today....oh well.

Gene Williams
17th May 2003, 15:41
Hi Hector, I agree with you in everything except the kata stuff. They don't need to be revamped...they weren't designed for the kinds of things you are talking about. The movements, properly understood are not that complex, and they do teach proper form in order to develop power. Most of the applications assume an opponent moves first and you are responding to his attack. Most kata assume committed attacks ( not some sparring dance master), or they assume grabs or other fairly common attacks. Many assume more than one opponent in certain sequences. I have always tried to explain it this way, since I played baseball: you learn to catch a ground ball by geting on your knee and having the coach roll the ball to you. You put your glove on the ground, and guide the ball into your glove with the other hand, you pull the glove and ball into your middle. You move from that to squatting down with your butt real low and repeat the procedure, but now you bring the ball straight back, step through with your foot and make an overhand throw to first. You do this for thousands of repetitions. Now, how many times have you ever seen Rafael Furcal or Derek Jeter throw the ball that way? Never. Hell, they look like acrobats and make throws I can't believe from every weird position there is. But, they would not be able to do all that if they had not done the other first. You can't take a Little Leaguer and start him out just letting him do it any way he pleases. Anyway, that is one way in which I view kata. Gene

CEB
17th May 2003, 16:21
Originally posted by Kimura
....

Although I agree to a certain extent,using this same analogy how does one expect to get off a certain series of complicated movements similar to the ones that are found in most prearanged katas?which may I add have not been revamped in the last 100 years to econimize movement.


...

PS:I know I am not going to make a lot of friends today....oh well.

What do you mean by complicated movements? My thought is that there is actually very little in the way of movement in technique of kata. This sounds weird I know. But before I go off on this line I would Like to see how people regard movement in kata. Is it the stepping and the embussen that is complicates things?

When you talk about prearranged what do you mean by the arrangement of the kata. Is it the step and the movement through the form?

Kimura
17th May 2003, 18:18
Gene & Ed,

First of all I would like to acknowledge that I respect both of you as great practicioners of the arts and I realize that both of you have devoted a great amount of years in training and building your belief system.


I am not really here stating that it has no value,or that it would not work.Instead I am here advocating that there is a lot of other ways to skin a cat both in belief and training strategies associaited with fighting that have earned there due respect.


Gene,

Going back to your baseball analogy,I can also make a good direct line of comparrison in stating that almost all major sports mimick or try to mimick the same exact detailed movement that will be executed on the playing field.

Case in point wrestling by in large is practiced thru drilling movements that not only mimick but show a very strong ressemblence to the exact movements that will be done in actual combat.

I have never witnessed a street altercation(maybe you guys have)that ressembles anything like a traditional form that was created over 100 years ago.

Please here me out,I am not stating that the great benifits that can influence your ability as a fighter cannot be gained from kata......what I am saying is........... that all the benifits like a good solid base and great foundation can also be acquired without kata training.


ED,

What I mean by complicated movements is really incorect on my part,What I really meant to say was economy of motion,Ed,yes the stepping done in almost all katas. Why am I going to practice stepping foward with the trailing leg if I am not and will never try to do that in actual combat?

If you are trying to preserve something that is fine or even if you believe that you can attain other side benifits derived from practicing these exercises,that is fine also.

In theory I can practice any single or combination repitition proven or updated in actual combat and reap the same benifits of kata as long as it also has a good solid foundation.

It's not like these ideas a far fetched or my own Invention.I am only a minority on this particular board but there are very well respected martial artist and fighters alike that have devoted many years of training to the science of fighting that also aknowledge these type of thoughts and principles.


Hector Gomez

PS:There is many ways to skin a cat.

CEB
17th May 2003, 18:44
Originally posted by Kimura
...

ED,

What I mean by complicated movements is really incorect on my part,What I really meant to say was economy of motion,Ed,yes the stepping done in almost all katas. Why am I going to practice stepping foward with the trailing leg if I am not and will never try to do that in actual combat?

...

You won't. I think you are right. Kata is comprised of postures and techniques. Each posture may only have one or two techniques. The stepping is added to link these postures together and create what most people think of as kata. The stepping creates the dance but I don't think it necesarily has anything to do with how the postures are applied. Different kata have different themes and principle and the direction of the steps and the postion of the eyes can carry meaning. But,these postures can not be learned without kumite. Kakie Kumite, Yaksoku Kumite, and Renzoku Kumite. Not free sparring. Free sparring is very good if done with the right purpose. Think of this kumite as our form of Uchikomi.

Practicing forms without ever crossing hands, well thats a load of ....nevermind this thread is about Shotokan so the driftmaster better stop before I get in more trouble.

Kimura
17th May 2003, 20:17
Let's get back to the essence of speed and shotokan you can now see the direct line I am trying to draw in the value and the complexity of the speed factor.

Atleast from my perspective ofcourse speed can get someone into clinch mode without having to hang around in what I call "NO man's land.

No man's land is that range between striking range and clinching range that is only there for a very small fraction of a second,not enough to pull off a series of muliple offensive techniques....................remember we all agree that we are not going to stay in a sparring situation on the streets or are we changing our minds now?

Economy of motion is of vital importance when dealing with the real dynamics of a fight both in the ring and on the streets.


Hector Gomez

Gene Williams
18th May 2003, 01:02
Hi Hector, I would not disagree that there are other ways to learn to fight besides kata. I just think that kata are a great repository of technique and, if understood and practiced for years, will develop a great deal of power and technique. Of course, you have to train with a partner, do contact work, and do everything else, as well. However, kata is the characteristic method of transmitting knowledge and ability in karate. I like that, you don't. It doesn't mean that one of us is right and the other wrong. You would want to avoid my gyakuzi, I would not want you to get me to the mat. Hey, that's what it is all about ;) Somebody must have made you run kata against your will at some point in the past, or maybe aliens kidnapped you to the kata planet and forced you to learn them and do them in front of Jaba the Hut.:D Gene

Goju Man
18th May 2003, 14:46
Somebody must have made you run kata against your will at some point in the past, or maybe aliens kidnapped you to the kata planet and forced you to learn them and do them in front of Jaba the Hut
I think it had something to do with his gi pants.:D

I think too much has been made of the bunkai interpretation from Okinawan karate to Shotokan. Don't tell me someone like Kanazawa doesn't understand bunkai, if he doesn't then it must not be too important.

Besides, Hector, you know that Shotokan isn't real karate. That was stuff to teach the school children and not real. Funakoshi couldn't even make up his bunkai. It's just sporty stuff. If he were to run into a "real" Okinawa karate man with his knoledge of the hidden deadly techniques, tuite interpretations from Nihanchi, all that flashy sporty stuff would be of no use.

Gene Williams
18th May 2003, 15:35
Funakoshi was sent to Japan because he was well educated and "polished" in etiquette and diplomacy. Many of the Okinawan greats of the time felt that someone like Motobu or Kyan would have been a better choice, but they were such rough customers the Okinawan officials were afraid they might slap the piss out of somebody or just get disgusted and leave. Motobu, particularly , was very outspoken about his feelings about Funakoshi. Gene

Kimura
18th May 2003, 15:43
Gene Quotes:Somebody must have kidnapped you run kata against your will at some point or maybe aliens kidnapped you to the kata planet and forced you learn them and do them in front of jaba the hut.


LOL,My close personal friends tell me I have a real serious phsycological retardation with this issue.........I tell them it could be from the first time I visited a boxing gym after ten years of training in karate and ended up moving around with a golden glover that had only been training for 6 months,OUCH THAT HURT,LOL. This event in my life might hold the keys to a lot of my retardation issues,LMAO.



ED Quotes:kata is comprised of postures and techniques.Each posture may only have 1 or 2 techniques.The stepping is added to link these postures together and create what most people think of as kata.The stepping creates the dance but I don't think it has anything to do with how the postures are applied.


Here is my take on this,The way you train is the way you are going to react.Basic science tells us that the neurological senses record & transmitt most everything we practice on a continuos basis, especially high amounts of anykind of repitition exercises.

This neurological phenom creates and transforms physical repitition into automatic responses. We all kind of figured this out the first couple months of training,causing techniques to become automatic responses without much thought,regardless of wether they are right or wrong.

This brings me to my real issue,I don't want to practice anything that I believe to be improper for fighting that might auotmatically come out as a natural resonse in a fight.I want to mimick and train exactly and as close as possible to the actual movement that I plan on doing in a real fight.Stepping foward,chambering my hands to waist level,blocking high and leaving my body exposed are all NO NO's IN the real world.

These are all things that to some extent will become programmed in the human physce and will become a natural response and boy are some these habbits hard to break.

Now without even being there,you all know what happened to me on my first visit to a boxing gym decades ago.


Hector Gomez

Gene Williams
18th May 2003, 15:53
Hector, I tell my students constantly, "you fight the way you train." You didn't read my baseball comparison a few posts back:( We didn't march into combat in company formation with someone counting cadence either, but we sure drilled a lot:D I never fired my weapon from the postures and positions on the firing range (except prone), but we spent a lot of time on the range, and I never swung on a rope across a muddy hole in combat, but we sure did it in training. So, if everything you do in training has to be what you do in combat, when the first mortar round landed in my area, how come I didn't do a column left and march out of there with someone counting cadence, or find me a rope to swing on? :p Gene

Kimura
18th May 2003, 16:20
Gene,you crack me up with your funny responses.

There is enough room in this world for people of all different thoughts and ideas to coexist with eachother and be happy in practicing what they enjoy.

I happen to have a lot of traditional karate friends that I respect and admirer even thou we all have different philosophical views on combat.


In the end it's really insignificant thoughts compared to the big scope of things in life.


Hector Gomez

Goju Man
18th May 2003, 16:59
Gene, no we didn't "march" into combat the way we drilled, BRM is to teach basic marksmanship in a basic way because many soldiers had never seen a gun before enlisting. However, that being said, there was no FTX I was ever a part of where we didn't do it as close to the real thing as possible. Having been part of two REFORGERS, (return of forces to Germany) which are major war games practised by not only forces stationed in Europe, but many units from stateside including special ops forces participate. The marching stopped well short of these exercises. In the same way, wether in a boxing gym or karate dojo, you must teach the basic techniques, punching, kicking, blocking, etc. The marching, apart from the discipline part of the service is as much for not having groups of fifty soldiers walking around at their leisure. But "marching" is not essential for combat nor is it taught as such.

Gene Williams
18th May 2003, 17:23
You are right about combat training exercises being as close to the real thing as possible. We had some guys seriously injured. I would argue (we like to argue, don't we) that marching does teach some things that are essential to combat...the difference between flank and column and a reflexive response to those situations, moving and working as a unit, reflexively obeying commands, and esprit de corps, to name a few. Of course in the old days (pre-1900) it was very essential to combat...how else are you going to get gunned down in droves if you don't march straight into the enemy positions in orderly fashion?:D Gene

Gene Williams
18th May 2003, 17:25
Hector, Yep. You are right...but let's keep discussing this stuff anyway because I enjoy it and I learn a lot. Gene

Bustillo, A.
18th May 2003, 19:53
Different drills for diiferent objectives.
The thread started out as Shotokans Contribution, which led to Funakoshi omitted this, shotokan lacks that, and their practioners never learned.

Thereby, Funakoshi and the Shotokan style is criticized because it is something different and not exactly Okinawan. For the most part, it was meant to be that way.

Gene,

To an extent, I see what you mean about training drills, however, when everyone mentions kata and bunkai they refer to it as applicable for self-defense. Of course, some of it will be effective. What some of us are saying here is that there are other drills that have more reesemblance to realistic combat scenarios.


'Marching' was mentioned. Marching does have battle tested value.
When spears were used, and it was one of the main weapons for soldiers, marching played a major role in battles. In modern times marching is more for group untity and organization. Nowadays, during riot situation law enforcement will implement marching formations to clear the streets while they carry shields.

So, as we can see, although a certain type of training may have been the best thing during a certain era, it may outdated today.

Gene Williams
18th May 2003, 20:13
You must have been with Hector when the Teenage Amazon Nurses from the Kata Planet kidnapped him and made him run kata for Jaba the Hut:D Can I go next time? I think Ed has been there recently, but I think he had a mind probe...have you read his posts the last couple of days? Gene

Bustillo, A.
18th May 2003, 20:26
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gene Williams
[B]You must have been with Hector when the Teenage Amazon Nurses from the Kata Planet kidnapped him and made him run kata for Jaba the Hut:D
------------------------------------------------------



I was. We came to the same conclusions although I wasn't subjected to the same abuse.

CEB
18th May 2003, 21:04
Some of you know this, some don't. My first martial art,(28 years ago :( ) was Shotokan. I have a brother who is 14 years older than me. Shotokan is his only art. According to Sensei the Shotokan still shows in my Goju Ryu.

I carry some beef. I usually weigh around 230-235. I'm in the 220's now since the damn doctor's took away my Mountain Dew and Ice Cream. This is a good weight for me though. I was asked by another Goju guy a couple of weeks ago how I was able to move as fast as I do for a such a big guy. I guess I look like I should be slow, but damn I'm not that big. I felt a little offended, you know how sensitive us musicians can be. But, the best guess of an answer I could come up with was that my Shotokan roots gave me something in my footwork that most Goju guys didn't have. I don't know if it is big low stances develop a more explosive type of movement due to increase abductor and adductor strength I don't really know, but there is definitely something there.

My Brother when he lived in West Palm Beach tried to switch styles. He went to an 'Okinawian' Shorin Ryu dojo ran by George Alexander. Mike said it was pretty close to Shotokan but the stance work was weak. You have to understand, my brother won't openly admit this but he believes if you aren't Shotokan your karate isn't @$#!. Some of you may have heard of Master Alexander. He is one of the guys that sells lots of videos of the true Okinawian secrets. If someone down there could have demonstrated the superiorness of the real karate methods I'm sure bro would have been a convert but lets just say it seems that nobody could convince him. I bought a book from George Alexander and told him over the phone I was Mike's brother. He told me yes I remember him alright. He is a very good Shotokan man but he just couldn't make the change to Shorin Ryu. Let's just say he Would Have if he felt he Should Have.

Kentsu Jabbu
Headmaster Leia Ryu

CEB
18th May 2003, 22:17
The Aliens are here. They are among us. They intend to abduct all the Earth's greatest martial artist. They have come after me, Billy Blanks and the SFA.


Here is Billy Blanks kicking squaring off against the Alien Champion.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL77/859023/1552251/25598541.jpg


Here are Aliens practicing kata for its carbo benefits.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL77/859023/1552251/25598536.jpg

Read the troof here! (http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Cliffs/1673/billyblanks.html)

Gene Williams
19th May 2003, 01:13
Hello Machimura, You still rant just like you always did and don't know what the Hell you are talking about. Gene

Kimura
19th May 2003, 03:22
Hey Gene,

Where do you think there going to move this thread too this time?


1)Bad budo
2)Gendai budo
or
3)Members lounge



I think it's going to be baffling budo after that last post were else can you put a baffling idiot.


Hector Gomez

PS:Another interesting topic catching the troll.:cry:

Gene Williams
19th May 2003, 10:58
How bout stupid Budo? Gene

CEB
19th May 2003, 14:26
Mean Gene started the smack talking about aliens not me. You give me a good topic like aliens and I'm going to run with it. I didn't come in 2nd place in my senior class election for class clown for nothing.

Everybody knows the Shotokan provided karate greater visibilty and a much broader audience. Its increased popularity is owed ( or blamed) much to them. The Shotokan did much to develop the method of explosive footwork that is now associated with the 'Japanese' karate style.

I have heard people on 2 different occassions who teach the 'Okinawian' karate style say that Shotokan's footwork was a result of taking Kendo's footwork and applying it to Karate.

I play some kendo. I'm not that good, I only have an Ikkyu grading in it from the AUSKF and MWKF, but I have been around it enough to know that the stance work in Kendo doesn't resemble Shotokan at all. The basic Kendo stance looks a lot like Aikido's Hanmi or their basic standing posture. The footwork in Kendo more resembles the footwork the Mr. Kise's Kenshinkan (80's vintage don't know what he is doing now) than Nakayama's Shotokan. The way Shotokan people punch with what they consider Zanshin does seem to draw some parallels to the way Kendo people strike with what they consider KiKenTai. This is in regards to the attitude of the strike and the the way the two disciplines cooridinate the weapon, the feet, the torso and the spirit.

My question, and maybe this is something that should be asked in the Kendo Forum. Is there a chance that Pre-War Kendo's footwork was bigger and more like Japanese Karate? ( I really doubt it. I've never seen an old picture of a kendo-ka in a zenkutsu dachi. ) Or, are some teachers of 'Okinawian' methods full of misconceptions regarding the origins or 'Japanese' methods? My gut feeling is that it is a result of someone's innovated nature within the Shotokan and doesn't have beans to do with all this talk of conspiracy to Japanify 'Okinawian' karate methods as a product of some sort socialization conspiracy agenda. Now about the alien conspiracy theory ......

Na-Noo Na-Noo

Rob Alvelais
19th May 2003, 15:23
Originally posted by Troof
Shito Ryu is almost exactly like Shotokan, deep stances and the catalogue of kata and more. Japanese Goju is well, kinda' tense. Just a little, especially for an "internal" style.



Wow, profoundly ignorant.

Rob

Gene Williams
19th May 2003, 15:26
I think Shotokan adopted the kenjutsu philosophy of one strong attack and one cut finishes the deal. That is why so much emphasis on explosive movement and oi zuki. It isn't like Okinawan karate does not have explosive movement: Rohai, Wankan, Kururunpha, and some other kata have explosive forward motion. It just isn't the be all and end all of the art. Gene

hector gomez
19th May 2003, 16:31
I ran into an old time friend of mine not to long ago.This guy was definitely my compradre(Great friend)back in the day,he use to train shotokan with us back about 25 years ago until he pulled off a missing in action for ever from the arts.

Anyway,I run into him and he tells me he want's to show me this real big tattoo he got on his shoulder,now remember this guy has not trained in karate for over 25 years,so he pulls up his T-shirt and there it was a big SHOTOKAN TIGER still freshly inked and tenderly sore.


Wow,that is some type of faith!!!!!!!!!I tell him,you know there is alot of stuff going on today that is also good to train in and will suplement karate real well.

He tells me NO way shotokan is the SHIZOwizo.I tried telling him it's all good,but he want's no part of it.So I give up and I tell him your right SHOTOKAN all the way baby!!!!!!!


Hector Gomez

Gene Williams
19th May 2003, 17:50
I have always liked that Shotokan tiger. We had a high dan in Hakko-ryu come and do a seminar for us. He's about 6'4' and 240 and he is part American Indian. He has this neat tattoo of a Navajo bear on his shoulder. One of my idiot black belts told him it looked more like a frog...he got to be uke for this guy all day! I just loved it...then he caught hell from me on Monday night for insulting a visitor. Actually, the Hakko-ryu guy has a great sense of humor and was cool with it. It was funny, though. Gene

Bustillo, A.
19th May 2003, 18:25
Ed, Gene,

You brought up interesting points about the footwork of kendo, iai influence.
Especially since many of the top Japanese men were experienced in the sword arts before they studied karate. In addition, we must remember that Y. Azato, one of Funakoshi's instructors, was proficient in Jigen-ryu.
(Jigen-ryu= sword art primarily practiced by the Satsuma clan and known for its intense training methods)

Note.
Currently, the 'Sword Arts' forum has an interesting thread on kendo footwork --half the dialoque is in Japanese so find a translator, dictionary or have a kendo book handy.

CEB
19th May 2003, 18:29
Originally posted by Shorinichi,Tatsu,Machimura,Troof
Judo guys have been continuously waxed by real karate guys. Take Itosu for example. He was 70 when he waxed a top Kodokan BB (4th Dan), back when Judo was still very JJ, like the stuff Maeda (3rd Dan) taught the Gracies. Try that judo stuff at the club on saturday night. It will get you killed.

What are you talking about. What club? What is your point of reference. What are your credentials and background in Judo that serve as basis for this crap? Who was your Judo teacher? Or, is this unsubstantiated ignorance?


Originally posted by Shorinichi,Tatsu,Machimura,Troof
So back to Shotokan. It is a kid style that can be used by adults. Funakoshi ADMITTED this. .... It will get you killed.[/B]

What is your source? What page? Just curious.


Originally posted by Shorinichi,Tatsu,Machimura,Troof
In fact most styles of karate from Okinawa became this thing. You call it evolution. Evolving doesn't entail greater effectiveness and efficiency in this case, but changing for modernity's sake, Japanese arse kissing and for $$$!!! Funakoshi, and others (Nagamine for example) weren't highly regarded by the other Shuri Te guys. ....[/B]

My guess is the other Shuri Te guys you are talking about are the village karate teachers. Unfortunately they are the ones that generally seem to be not highly regarded. This may be why they were so more prone to teach GIs. I think they are viewed like we view people from Arkansas sometimes. Too bad, the villiage schools have knowledge and perform what I believe is a great to service to the presevation of old school karate. But they more highly regarded by people in the US than by karate-ka in Okinawa. Maybe the climate has changed since 92.



Originally posted by Shorinichi,Tatsu,Machimura,Troof
Shotokan and Wado and Shito and all these new kumite/competition intensive styles are the majority. Being part of the majority doesn't necessarily mean you're right. Wado was one sensei's attempt to nationalize Shotokan; make it a Japanese thing. Shito Ryu is almost exactly like Shotokan, deep stances and the catalogue of kata and more. Japanese Goju is well, kinda' tense. Just a little, especially for an "internal" style.[/B]

This may be the most ignorant thing I have read in sometime. I'll stick to just the Goju piece. There is no 'Japanese' Goju per se. The Goju of Izumikawa Kanki for instance isn't like the Goju of Yamaguchi Gogen. The Goju of some Japanese schools bears more resemblence to certain Okinawian Schools than some Okinawian schools resemble each other. Miyagi was an innovator. I believe Miyazato Sensei when he said in his final interview that the Jundokan syllabus represents what Miyagi was teaching at the time of his death (for the most part). I see more similarities between the physical kata movements in Seigokan Goju (a japanese school) and Shodokan Goju (OLD Okinawian school) Than what I see between Shodokan and Jundokan for example. Tensho and some Sanchin found Japanese schools are 'softer' than the Okinawian counterparts. Some Japanese Goju is also very very 'hard'. Japan is a place not a style when it relates to Goju.



Originally posted by Shorinichi,Tatsu,Machimura,Troof
.... As for the rest, I'm just not impressed and believe me I've experienced them all. You can't know what you don't know. ...[/B]

You have to be joking boy. What, Are you a Jack of All Trades, Master of None? Or, just another kuchi bushi perhaps?

Gene Williams
19th May 2003, 18:52
Ed, He is a jack-off of all trades. Why even bother to respond? He is merely baiting because he is po'd about being kicked off of e-budo, but he keeps coming back, sort of like a turd that won't flush. Put him on your ignore list like I'm fixing to do. Gene

CEB
19th May 2003, 19:06
Agreed, you are right. I guess with age does comes wisdom. :) thanks

Gene Williams
19th May 2003, 19:09
Well, You're starting to get a little moss on your horns yourself. :p

hector gomez
19th May 2003, 19:23
Guy's,don't waste your time.This is the same character that say's caique(BJJ representative) knows what's up with real karate,WAKE UP JACK A*&% and smell the coffee,get real,the gracies stand for just the opposite of everything you post about.

Famous quotes by Mr.Cyr

Muaythai is not all that.
MMA is not all that.
Boxing is not all that.
Judo is not all that.
Kyokushin and shotokan is ok for kids.

This guy is suffering from a real ignoramostupido syndrome.


I had to get that off my chest.


One more time back to the thread,I have to agree with all you guy's in this shotokan/kendo connection theory, even thou todays elite shotokan competitors and footwork probably ressemble closer to olympic fencing than it does kendo practicioners.


Hector Gomez

Sochin
19th May 2003, 23:30
Troof,

if you want your posts to stick, speak to the topic and not jsut the persons.

Guys, too much - I don't know where this will be sent, but I'm just about fed up with it. I've said before, Bad attitude = bad budo, but someone else rescued the other topic from bad budo and sent it to Gendai, fine by me as long as I don't have to read it.

Why should I put up with talk here that I would kick people out of my dojo for??

Maybe I'll send it to the trash bin for John to look at. And I was liking the topic.

Gene Williams
20th May 2003, 01:22
Then you need to get rid of trolls like "Troof" who has been here before and kicked out. He just keeps changing names and coming back. I think you sometimes over-moderate. We always manage to get back on topic while having a little fun besides. How would you like to have someone like "Troof" in your dojo? Your seniors would probably react just like most of us. Gene

Goju Man
20th May 2003, 02:01
Hey Gene, I'm not sure but do you like the oi-zuki?:D In suoth florida, we have the oye zuki.:D Let me tell you guys, a lot of people talk about real fighting, yet look at any tournament, yes even the Okinawa World tournament of which I have a video of from George Alexander, who also authored a book on the Bubishi and books on Okinawa, and their fighting is the same as any other. Even the Uechi guys are fighting the same way. You can say that Funakoshi did for Shotokan and Karate, what Kano did for judo. He found that live resisting opponents were beneficial. Even the bogu aficionados don't use any techniques other than those of the JKA.

Wow. You guys from So-Flo are definitely knowledgeable. About what, I don't know. I guess whoever you learned karate from didn't teach you enough. Every system of Okinawan karate is a complete system. Weapons, grappling, pugilism, kicking, kickboxing, etc..
All of which you obviously know nothing about. Yeah yeah I know, I don't know you, how could I know you, you've changed your name yada yada yada.
Ed, you left out Stephen the MD.:D

Goju Man
20th May 2003, 02:04
Oh, btw, didn't the evolution of the Pinan kata come about for school use?

CEB
20th May 2003, 03:18
Originally posted by Goju Man
....yes even the Okinawa World tournament of which I have a video of from George Alexander, who also authored a book on the Bubishi .....

I am not being arguementitive Manny. I just want to shed some light on the Bubishi work you mention. Ken Penland was the man who put that book together. I saw the manuscript in a 3 ring binder about a year before George got his hands on it. George Alexander owned a publishing business and Mr. Penland wanted to get the book out to the public so it seemed to be the thing to do. George Alexander did a cut and paste on some of his text from his Okinawian Island of Karate book and listed himself as co-author. I don't think Mr. Penland minded, after all he didn't write it either. Mr. Penland did all the leg work necessary to put that book together and he commissioned a Chinese professor from UCLA to do the translation work. Ken Penland told me that his original intention was to produced a verbatim translation of the Bubishi that he obtained from a Goju teacher and let the reader do his own research and come to his own assumtions ect... In this regard the added footnotes actually detract from the original vision in my opinion.


Originally posted by Goju Man
Ed, you left out Stephen the MD.:D [/B]
No, I believe that was really his brother. If you want to know why PM or email me.

Goju Man
20th May 2003, 11:17
That's interesting Ed. He also made a video tape of the bubishi. He's a ham.
:D
Gene, you are my hero. I'm going out to find the nearest Shito school.:D Actually, I do have one nearby. Ted, I feel your pain, but as Gene said, you guys keep letting him back in. If you check the IP addresses of all his aliases, you would find they are the same. After all, how many times has he done the same thing?

Sochin
20th May 2003, 14:25
Ted, I feel your pain, but as Gene said, you guys keep letting him back in. If you check the IP addresses of all his aliases, you would find they are the same. After all, how many times has he done the same thing?

Manny

Guys,

I know Mr.Cyr changed his sign-in name before but I am not aware that he was banned at the time because he signed his full name with both sigs...

I have checked IP's and I have found no correlation between Mr. Prophet and any other member, past or present.. What else can I say?

People have the right to an opinion, even if it conflicts with your opinion.

People have a right to be dumb, you are not the dumb police in this place, because not everyone you think is dumb, is dumb.

My sempai do not speak to a disruptive student in public, that' my job when their efforts fail. Even I don't do it in public the first few times. Even if I agree with your pov, ( I don't always) I can't support your public harrassment as a solution...it makes us all look bad.

Put his name on your ignore list and you'll never be bothered again. Do it now, or be quiet about it , to keep this up would prove you just like stirring things up.

hector gomez
20th May 2003, 15:07
Ted,

The big problem here is that you as a moderator have a job to do and that is to moderate.sometimes this can become hard without letting your personal philosophies about the martial arts get in the way.

It is a given that if I the MMA,eclectic,KIckboxing bastard member was getting into threads and not contributing something worthwhile to a disscussion except for HATE my A#$%^ would be history faster than I can say kata training sucks.

Cmon guys I am kidding again,Unfortunately for some of us it seems that your belief systems probably coincides pretty much along the lines of what Mr cyrs preaches and stands for therefore this make your moderating skills seem a bit biased at times.To bad you have such a bad spokeperson for your cause.I am sure you are embarrased just as much.

Please talk to us we would like to hear your opinions,this can definitely be a preconcieve notion on my part but your actions sometimes speak louder than words


Hector Gomez

PS:Forget about action for a second and give us some words.

Bustillo, A.
20th May 2003, 15:08
Ed,

That was good, interesting insider info.

Sochin
20th May 2003, 15:32
Hector,

I'm in my 50's, not ydfc anymore!

I've been training since the early 70's in 4 major styles AND modern combatives - I think it is all good.

I am an Aquarius! which means I see value and disvalue in everyone's opinion, and I seldom take sides. Does anyone know what I believe to be proper karate / martial arts? I doubt it, because I keep out of it for the most part.

Tuite, no tuite, modern / eclectic vrs traditional, sparring vrs kata, this guy / that guy, hard soft or Neanderthal, it doesn't matter...what matters is the good running and reputation of this forum.

But soon as I make a decision, I'm blamed for politics, so after awhile I don't care about anyone's opinion no more.

hector gomez
20th May 2003, 15:43
Ted,

Thank you,that is as straightfoward as one can get,excuse me for my preconcieved notions.

Hector Gomez

CEB
20th May 2003, 15:56
Click on the picture of New! All Katas on video to watch Shotokan forms online (http://www.kamikazeusa.com/webstore/category.cfm?Category=61)

Goju Man
20th May 2003, 17:31
I can't ask for more than that, though I do anyway.:D Fair enough. Getting back to the thread, I've often heard that kata Nijushi (sp) may or may not be practised by all Shotokan sects. Can someone shed some light on this?
Ed, you are definitley well schooled on many things outside of Goju. My hats off to you brother.:smilejapa

Goju Man
20th May 2003, 17:33
Ed, was that Master Po? :laugh:

Gene Williams
20th May 2003, 18:12
Nijushiho is a minor Shotokan kata that is not done by all schools. It is really Okinawan, but Funakoshi messed with it (or someone did). Gene

hector gomez
20th May 2003, 18:40
Ed,

Thanks for downloading that shotokan weblink for us.This sure does bring back a lot of memories.I feel like the aliens kidnapped me and put me in a back to the future time machine.

My favorites were,Empi,Hangetsu,and Nijushiho.


Hector Gomez

Goju Man
21st May 2003, 03:17
My favorites were,Empi,Hangetsu,and Nijushiho.
Favorites? Hector? Kata? I fear the aliens have not only taken Hector, but are using his computer! :D

BTW, isn't Hangetsu a Shotokan version of Sesan?

gmanry
21st May 2003, 04:15
Can anyone explain the three hops at the end of Chinte? Not having ever learned that kata, I haven't a clue. I found it surprising.

I can see a need to claim that all kata start and stop at the same place, thus move back, but the fact that it is done with hopping makes me think that some other purpose is there (other than a sense of humor).

Thanks

Harry Cook
21st May 2003, 09:07
Chinte is my favourite Shotokan kata, all except the daft three hops at the end. I once asked Kase sensei what they meant and he said that it was simply to get back to the same place. They first seem to have appeared in the 1950s with the growth of competitions and the bizarre desire to end up on the same spot was considered to mean something of value. as such it is a product primarily of Japanese university karate. It is of interest to note that it is only the Shotokan version which makes use of the hops. If you look at the earliest published version I know of (in Takeda's Karate Kempo - 1930s pp 255-263) there is no sign of the hops.
As for the meaning, take your pick from a number of equally ludicrous explanations such as hopping over dead bodies on a battlefield, avoiding a chain attack to the feet, moving backwards with a damaged ankle etc etc. All totally daft in my opinion.
Yours,
Harry Cook

Gene Williams
21st May 2003, 10:39
Harry is right about the embusen stuff. Most Okinawan ryu say you must end on same line, but not same spot. If you do the kata with spirit and power and fluidity, you won't always end on same spot. Kuniba always said same line. The only explanation for the hop I ever heard that even made a little sense was that someone was holding your hair or lapel and you trap their hand and hop back to extend and unbalance them. I don't do that kata, so you guys have to sweat that one:D Gene

Casper Baar
21st May 2003, 13:39
Greetings,

In wado-ryu Chinto hasn't got (didn't get) the hops. From what I understand wado's Chinto has influences from both Funakoshi sensei and Mabuni sensei. I'll post a site with wado's Chinto for those of you who are interested.
http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~martg/
It's a Dutch site just click where it says kata and scroll down for Chinto.

Did Shotokan change a lot in their stances? If someone can show me what Shito-ryu's Chinto looks like I'll appreciate it.

Thank you,

Rob Alvelais
21st May 2003, 14:26
I was watching Oshiro demonstrate kata (Tomari Passai) one day. He was also saying that the kata should start and stop on the same spot.
So, he got to his starting point, bowed and took a step forward. Upon completion of the kata, he stepped back to the spot where he bowed at the beginning, and bowed again. Viola! Kata starts and stops on the same spot!

Rob




Originally posted by Gene Williams
Harry is right about the embusen stuff. Most Okinawan ryu say you must end on same line, but not same spot. If you do the kata with spirit and power and fluidity, you won't always end on same spot. Kuniba always said same line. The only explanation for the hop I ever heard that even made a little sense was that someone was holding your hair or lapel and you trap their hand and hop back to extend and unbalance them. I don't do that kata, so you guys have to sweat that one:D Gene

Rob Alvelais
21st May 2003, 14:31
ChintO and ChintE are completely different kata. Shito Ryu has both Chinto and Chinte. I don't think Wado picked up Chinte. None the less, Chinto and Chinte are completely different, just like Seishan and Chinto are completely different kata.

Shito's Chinto is similar to Wado's Chinto

Rob





Originally posted by Casper Baar
Greetings,

In wado-ryu Chinto hasn't got (didn't get) the hops. From what I understand wado's Chinto has influences from both Funakoshi sensei and Mabuni sensei. I'll post a site with wado's Chinto for those of you who are interested.
http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~martg/
It's a Dutch site just click where it says kata and scroll down for Chinto.

Did Shotokan change a lot in their stances? If someone can show me what Shito-ryu's Chinto looks like I'll appreciate it.

Thank you,

Casper Baar
21st May 2003, 14:47
I should have taken some more time to think before I typed.

My apologies,

hector gomez
21st May 2003, 14:56
I usually finish my kata(shadow boxing)right when the bell rings and it usually does not matter were I finish.

OK all kidding aside,since everyone is asking questions......Can someone tell me what should be the proper order in learning the shotokan forms?


I remember our organization had a different order of learning certain advanced katas compared to the JKA curriculium,sometimes we were taught higher advanced katas instead of other advanced katas.What should be the proper order in learning shotokan katas?

Thanks
Hector Gomez

CEB
21st May 2003, 16:48
Originally posted by Casper Baar
Greetings,

In wado-ryu Chinto hasn't got (didn't get) the hops. From what I understand wado's Chinto has influences from both Funakoshi sensei and Mabuni sensei. I'll post a site with wado's Chinto for those of you who are interested.
http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~martg/
It's a Dutch site just click where it says kata and scroll down for Chinto.

Did Shotokan change a lot in their stances? If someone can show me what Shito-ryu's Chinto looks like I'll appreciate it.

Thank you,

Shotokan does a version of Chinto. They call it Gankaku. The embusen is the same as the Seito Matsumura Ryu version that I hobble through. Straight line. But the Gankaku looks all roided out or something. The big stances don't look right to me. At least in the sense of how I was taught Chinto. I don't know the the tai sabaki and ashi sabaki ideas would work with this gankaku foot work. Maybe it is just a carbo exercise :)

Some Chinto forms run on a 45 degree line. The one that Takayoshi Nagamine demonstrated in Peoria did this. It was pretty cool to. Does Wado's run on a straight line front to back or does it run on a 45 degree embusen?

My Chinto had hops in it when I first tried to learn it :) Uhh.. they weren't suppose to be there though.

Rob Alvelais
21st May 2003, 16:56
Originally posted by CEB

Some Chinto forms run on a 45 degree line. The one that Takayoshi Nagamine demonstrated in Peoria did this. It was pretty cool to. That's a Kyan chinto.
Does Wado's run on a straight line front to back or does it run on a 45 degree embusen?

No, Wado's Chinto is about the same as Gankaku. The enbusen is a straight line, in the Itosu tradition. They do a Shiko dachi instead of Kokutsu, and they do a Chinto Dachi (kind of like a Seishan dachi, actually) in the beginning. They do a more "Okinawan" back stance. It's actually kind of like an in-between step from Shito Ryu to Shotokan.

Rob

CEB
21st May 2003, 19:16
I don't understand what is supposed to be going on in Jitte where during you hold your arms out to the side with the arms flexed upwards like you are pumping your biceps. Somebody told me it is supposed to be a defense against a staff but I don't see it.


It would be nice kata for showing off my biceps, neck, and back muscles if I didn't have to wear that big baggy dogi top.

Bustillo, A.
21st May 2003, 20:06
The explanations and reasons for some of the movements in the forms, interesting. (No wonder the aleins did a number on Hector.)

hector gomez
21st May 2003, 21:27
Antonio,


That's the thing with these Extraterrestial aliens,they look for the weak minded souls,you know the ones who start asking too many logical questions,like why? or how come?please don't ask these type of questions.........ED.

Once they notice that weakness,they fly right down and snag you right up.


Then before you know it,your rolling around with sweaty men in spandex,scratching your head and asking yourself,how did I get here?

Hector Gomez:idea:

Sochin
21st May 2003, 21:41
Ed,

I haven't clicked the link yet!!!

The position in Jutte you mention, theYama position, is a tough one alright. I only do apps for the first entry, scoop / hook a kick into your elbow and standup, lifting your knee into the underside of his leg or whatever is there, :) . I've actaully done this sparring against some lowly belt many years ago. (Now I'm too old, now I rest on my Yama!

don
22nd May 2003, 15:54
Originally posted by Harry Cook
Chinte is my favourite Shotokan kata, all except the daft three hops at the end....As for the meaning, take your pick from a number of equally ludicrous explanations such as hopping over dead bodies on a battlefield, avoiding a chain attack to the feet, moving backwards with a damaged ankle etc etc. All totally daft in my opinion.

Mr. Cook, I'm curious as to your learned opinion on the following:

"Chinte is by far one of the least popular kata among Japanese males in Shotokan Karate. However, among female Japanese, Chinte has quite a following. The reasoning behind this is perhaps the origin of the kata. It is possible that Chinte originated as an Okinawan folk dance, and has since that time been copied by karate experts and has been modified to support fighting techniques." (from http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/kata/chinte.html by Rob Redmond)

We often see cultural artefacts grafted onto others, e.g., three sages following a star to the birth of Zoroaster becoming a Christian tale. Beyond the intuitive appeal here, is there any evidence for such an idea applied to Chinte or other kata?

Thanks.

Harry Cook
22nd May 2003, 16:36
I have seen any evidence to substantiate Mr. Redmond's observations that Chinte was derived from a dance. It seems to me highly unlikely as the general tendency is to create dances from fighting systems, not the other way around. I think you can find many examples of dances developing from martial practices, I saw some Indian dancing in Kerala a few years ago which was clearly inspired by fighting techniques, but I don't know of any fighting systems that started as dances. Brazilian Capoeira is a fighting system which was hidden in a dancelike form, but the intention behind the movements was and is martial.
Chinte appears in Nisaburo Miki's Kempo Gaisetsu (1931) and Mizuho Takeda's Karate Kempo (1933) and in Ryusho Sakagami's excellent study of Shito Ryu kata published in 1978. The JKA version is in general very similar. According to Hirokazu Kanazawa Chinte is "A kata of self defense at close distance, it is extensively practiced by women because includes very effective techniques not requiring much power."
Yours,
Harry Cook

Jay Vail
24th May 2003, 09:28
Harry said:
Chinte is my favourite Shotokan kata, all except the daft three hops at the end.

:D I always liked Chinte too, and I hated those silly hops. First time I ever saw them I laughed out loud. When I do Chinte I drop the hops. There is no point to them.

CEB
28th May 2003, 13:37
Where is Hector? Is he back yet?

hector gomez
28th May 2003, 18:58
Hi Ed,

I just got back from the beach with the family,I had some time to reflect on certain issues and I finally figured out my problem.

I suffer from katanomoresyndrome.I talked to some doctors and they told me I might have picked this up a long time ago.

There is no known cure,I have even tried going back to class years ago and my body just felt ackward & weird.

Any suggestions?


Hector Gomez

:cool:

Gene Williams
28th May 2003, 20:14
Hector, You probably suffer from an even less known disease...mulestubbornosis. Unfortunately, kata is the only cure, so there is nothing we can do. The symptoms are standing around with your arms folded and your cheeks puffed out while people do kata, laughing out loud at Tai Chi classes, and tackling white belts trying to learn Taikyoku Shodan, then choking them on the mat and screaming, "Taikyoku this, dancing fairy!!!!" You're hopeless, but I like you anyway.:D Gene

CEB
28th May 2003, 22:04
Originally posted by hector gomez
Hi Ed,

...

Any suggestions?


Hector Gomez

:cool:

I'm glad you can still log in. I read where your IP address got blocked somehow. I like to keep in touch. E-budo's PM system is a good way to do that. I think you have my e-mail address if something should ever happen to E-Budo. If not PM me.

Only suggestion I have is to do what it is you do. You have 30+ years of martial arts experience now. Many of those years spent practicing tradtional gendai budo such as Shotokan, your Goju days and that long Judo background of yours. You know more about how to get what you want out of your available practice time than anybody else does.

Karate is a set of disciplines. It is a means to some end. The purpose of these disciplines is the question. What is the purpose? I don't know if there is one. I guess the purpose is in the heart of the practitioner. There are times that wonder what the point is. Why I keep at it? I don't know. Karate is a healthy activity if practiced correctly. The health and wellness benefits may be one of my main reasons for continuing its practice, but I mostly do it because it is what I do.

When the issue of starting my own dojo first broke I recieved a lot of good advice and encouragement from long time friends and mentors. A 6th dan in Goju Ryu and long time mentor from the Chicago area advised me that I needed to do this but, "Do not extinguish the flame before it is lit" which is his way of saying take it easy on the beginners at first you brute. The second highest ranking black belt in our organization wrote me and reminded me 'that our purpose was to build character not gladiators'.

Things were simpler when all we wanted to do was learn how to fight real good.

Glad to see you back.

Gene Williams
28th May 2003, 22:55
Very zen, Ed. Very eloquent. Gene

Jock Armstrong
29th May 2003, 02:45
The low stances, as has already been stated were for building the leg muscles. As for the comment about sword concepts creeping in over time- right on. Kokutsu dachi especially, in its very deep version, owes more to sword tech or spear[bracing the spear to recieve an attack.]. Long,low zenkutsu were introduced by Funakoshi Gichin's son and owes more to jukenjutsu or so-jutsu thrusting tech [both these arts were popular and encouraged by the govt in the twenties and thirties]. The main source of ill feeling from the Okinawans was Funokoshi's changing of the kanji for "kara" from "Tang" which referred to karate's Chinese influence to "empty" to Japanise it and make it more appealing to the Japanese WITHOUT the other senseis' permission.. Remember this was a time of intense nationalism- they were fighting in China, so Chinese connections were out [nobody ever said logic was stronger than emotion or politics]. Also, the Japanese tended to look down on the OKinawans as not quite Japanese, as a bit impure. Hence the murder of many Okinawans by the Imperial army in 1945 during the Okinawan campaign. They took exception to the Okinawans' lack of zeal for suicide as an insult and "assisted" them at bayonet point. This is still a source of contention between Ryukyu islanders and the Japanese government. Funakoshi was selected to represent Okinawan karate because he, as a schoolteacher, spoke japanese rather than the Okinawan dialect/ language [this is still debated- whether its a dialect or a distinct language].It had nothing to do with seniority or rank. Most of the angst is due to non technical factors. Tech has just become the reason as people forget the origins. :nw: :beer:

Gene Williams
29th May 2003, 03:27
Yep, I addressed this earlier in the thread, Jock. Nagamine's book,"ales of the Okinawan Masters", has lots about this issue. Gene

Jock Armstrong
29th May 2003, 04:03
Y ou mean "Tales of the Okinawan masters" -or they may have brewed their own beer- which makes them doubly admirable.
Typos are my constant nig mare.........:beer:

Jock Armstrong
29th May 2003, 04:12
Lee/Troof- no grappling moves in Okinawan kata? There are no newaza if thats what you mean but there are standing grappling moves in the form of joint breaks and wristlocks.:beer:

Kimura
29th May 2003, 04:26
GENE,mulestubbornosis Me........ Maybe but I would never tackle white belts trying to learn taikyoko shodan,come on..... you have to have more faith in me than that.I would just simply tell them that training in H patterns is an option but not mandatory,LOL.



ED,about not extinguishing the fire before it is lit,Agree 100%.I am in the same boat as you.I have a son just like you,that is doing judo with me.It is hard sometimes trying to build his confidence up without pushing to hard and extinquishing the fire,along with making sure he is doing it for himself and not because the old man wants him too.


Mr. Armstrong,

You bring up some great points on how the politics,culture,and different eras in japan affected the fighting arts in how they were influenced and practiced.

The Japaneese also did this with Muaythai around the early 60s they imported the art from thailand,They slightly changed the rules and called it Japaneese kickboxing.

Toishi fujiwara became the first Japaneese fighter to win a title in bangkok.You can actually trace this students lineage back to Funakoshi thru the Oyama/Shotokan connection.


Hector Gomez

Harry Cook
29th May 2003, 10:38
Mr. Armstrong said "The main source of ill feeling from the Okinawans was Funokoshi's changing of the kanji for "kara" from "Tang" which referred to karate's Chinese influence to "empty" to Japanise it and make it more appealing to the Japanese WITHOUT the other senseis' permission.."
If you look at the transcription of the 1936 meeting of Okinawan masters (see Pat McCarthy's article in Furyu 1995 vol 1 no. 4 pp 10-17) it is clear that those who attended the meeting (Chojun Miyagi, Chomo Hanashiro, Choshin Chibana etc) were in favour of the new term (ie. empty hand, rather than China hand). Of course there would have been those who opposed the change, but Funakoshi seemed to have had the support of many of the leading Okinawan teachers, especially those who wanted to promote karate in mainland Japan.
Yours,
Harry Cook

Goju Man
29th May 2003, 21:13
Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
Lee/Troof- no grappling moves in Okinawan kata? There are no newaza if thats what you mean but there are standing grappling moves in the form of joint breaks and wristlocks.:beer:

Jock, there is a misconception about that subject. I agree that there are certain techniques that are called grappling techniques but not ne waza. There are those that are "reverse engineers" in kata and can fit the lunar probe lift off into a bunkai of kata. The plain and simple truth is this. There are many throws in kata, but a Judoka you'll never be from kata or karate, there maybe be ne waza techniques, mount escapes etc. in kata techniques but a grappler you'll not be without training at a particular grappling school. In the same manner that even though there is striking in Judo's Goshin Jitsu kata, a Karateka he won't be.;)

Gene Williams
29th May 2003, 21:30
Manny is correct. I have practiced kata for over 30 years and have learned and can employ many chokes, joint locks, and takedowns. Against a street thug or 2 or another karateka, I'm fine, but the last thing I would want to happen is to be taken down by a judoka or someone who had trained in BJJ. Gene

Kimura
29th May 2003, 23:11
Boy those last two replies sound very logical.This must be some sort of common sense invasion.:laugh:


Hector Gomez

Goju Man
30th May 2003, 00:44
Hector, not common sense, experience. You can tell guys that have fought versus the guys that don't. Gene, for example sounds like he's thrown a real punch or two. (and I don't mean at the kid down the block)

Jock Armstrong
30th May 2003, 01:41
I never said a goju [or any other karateka] would be on a par with full on grapplers, I just said that there are grappling tech in Okinawan karate kata, something fltly denied in the previous post.. The sad thing is that a lot of instructors don't know what they are as they weren't taught them. As far as the comment about "reverse engineers", I've studied jujutsu, aikido and Filipino arts [Doce Pares Arnis which has a lot of judo grappling and Filipino dumog wrestling]. If I can see a bunkai application that someone else lacking the background can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. For the record I spent over ten years fighting cowboys and cane cutters in North Queensland every Friday and Saturday night. I like to think that I have some idea- that may not be the case but reputation is only other peoples' opinions.

Goju Man
30th May 2003, 02:12
I never said a goju [or any other karateka] would be on a par with full on grapplers, I just said that there are grappling tech in Okinawan karate kata,
Jock, I wasn't saying that YOU said that. I am actually agreeing with you. You have missed some of the great debates on here about that. One member actually said that the mount defense is in Sanchin kata. This same person trained sixteen hours a day and worked full time, glad he didn't need any sleep. The point is that some will go to any lenght to be able to say "it's all in the kata". My point is, even if it is, if you're not proficient in it, ( ie grappling ), what good is it to say it's in there. Here's an anology. A certain Karateka swears up and down how mount defenses, grappling, (ne waza) is in this kata or that. By achieving a black belt level in that art would mean you are a black belt to include grappling. Yet, if you roll with any Judoka, you're getting tapped out so much you need a splint for your hand. What good was it to point out how your kata includes all these techniques if you are not proficient with it? :)

Jock Armstrong
30th May 2003, 02:34
T he mount defense is sanchin kata??? Thats not rev eng, thats delusion. I see what you mean. You are right that I've missed something- I'm fairly new. Imagination is essential for bunkai but delusional thinking..... I womder if he had access to recreational drugs......

Goju Man
30th May 2003, 02:46
MR. GAMBINI, ARE YOU ON DRUGS?
That's one of my favorite movies.

I womder if he had access to recreational drugs......
Hey man, that's way past recreational.:D

Gene Williams
30th May 2003, 03:36
Hector and Manny, I think a lot of people try to work backwards when they do bunkai...in other words, they ask, "how can I get grappling moves into my kata, or how can I make this bunkai work so I can say "it is all in the kata." My own experience and opinion tell me that there are many takedowns in kata, and some chokes and joint locks as well. However, kata is mostly tai sabaki and atemi. I think that only the chokes are probably designed to be done on the ground; everything else is for quick mobility on your feet. Some kata assume more than one opponent, so you would not want to leave your feet in that case. There are very obvious joint locks and throws in kata, but not where you go down with the opponent. People need to face it...you can't be everything, and it is not "all in the kata." If you have practiced nothing but good solid orthodox karate all your life, even to the highest level of proficiency, and you are facing a judoka or grappler of equal experience, you'd better hurt him bad while you are still on your feet. Once you are on the ground, sayonora. Gene

Goju Man
30th May 2003, 11:39
Gene, I agree completely. I've seen Higaonna Sensei performing many such moves in his bunkai. It is far from grappling (ne waza). Facing the reality that ones art is limited is not easy. I was a karateka and kickboxer for many years. Then the UFC came along and showed the weakneses in it. BJJ ruled. But then BJJ showed its vulnerability since the strikers have learned to deal with them and either defend themselves while on the ground or keep the fight standing in the first place. It requires an open mind.:)

CEB
30th May 2003, 15:33
When guys say 'Its all in the kata' I never took it to mean like that. I assumed they meant all KARATE is in the kata. Kata catalogues the waza of a particular school except for a few extranious techniques that have found there way in the style's practice over the years like the round kick.

The funny guys are the ones who study karate through the kata without putting the techniques of the kata to work. They do quite a bit to add to the dancing fairy concept. You know the routine, practice kata and work out moves in our head. Then spar and do stuff that looks nothing like the kata we pay lip service to. Its beyond my understanding. I guess its just over my head. Kata without prearranged kumite and kakie (sorry don't know an english equivelent) seems of little worth to me.

Very true about the point about people working backwards. If think I mentioned this last year but I had a friend, a good karate black with 20+ years experience tell me he likes to go to Jujutsu seminars because learns karate bunkai. This seems to be more common than I originally thought.

Hey, I'm a karate guy but I don't mind rolling on the mat. I might not always win But I don't do so bad on the ground :)

I actually had something else I wanted to discuss but I thought I should be in its own thread. I don't like to start threads because if something should happen to my account well the whole thread disappears

Gene Williams
30th May 2003, 15:43
Ed, That is what you and I mean when we say it is all in the kata, but that is not what a lot of these wannabee's mean. You are right in all your points. Hey, I'm not helpless on the mat, but I don't "live" there like the judoka and the BJJ folks. Don't want to, either, but I could improve myself in that area (all the others, too:p ). Gene

Goju Man
30th May 2003, 23:42
Ed and Gene, I agree with you guys. Let me say that you don't have to become a bjj guy or a full blown grappler to learn how to handle yourself on the ground. Several well known strikers have won and held more than their own with grapplers without becoming full blown grapplers. Maurice Smith, Chuck Liddell are two that quickly come to mind. Heavyweight champ Tim Sylvia bet a much more accomplished grappler by keeping the fight on his terms. The best way to learn how to defend against an art is to learn the art. Maybe not to it's end, but get a good "hands on" working knoledge of it. Chuck Liddell is by no means a "grappler", but he has the best sprawl in the business. He keeps the fight standing, where he is dominant.

Gene, wannabees? :laugh: I agree. I agree!:nw:

Many kata bunkai afficionados spend too much time analyzing, di secting and dreaming of these ultra "hidden" secrets and far too short a time doing the big T. (training)

CEB
31st May 2003, 00:22
Actually I was just being a wise butt about the rolling around on the ground stuff. I've played Judo on and off for the last 25 years or so. Had there been a Judo dojo in Springfield in 1985 I probably wouldn't have gotten back in to karate. But met a very good Goju teacher and one thing led to another and in the end I would say it has worked out very well for me.

I know guys that analyze alot and train hard also. I don't have any problems with analyzing. Everything I teach was taught to me. I'm just not that creative plus my teachers are much more knowledgable and more talented than I am. I have quite a bit of home cooking oyo, that I've played around with. Especially for Seiunchin Kata but most all of "My Oyo" came from Judo and Jujutsu teachers. I'm just not that creative. That is me. George Thoroghgood was asked why he did so many cover tunes once and his answer was because Chuck Berry already wrote all the good songs. I kind of feel that way. But, Anything that inspires somone to practice is OK by me.

Time allocation and what physical components people thought should actually make up the 'Big T' is something I thought would be interesting so everybody go vote in my poll. Have a good weekend.

hector gomez
2nd June 2003, 13:13
Why would ryon gracie know me?he is barely 20 years old and son of rorion gracie.These threads are not about me or anyone else for that matter,they are about the issues at hand.please deal with the issue at hand,instead of just trying to spread hate.

If a white belt(beginner)comes on here and makes a scientific factual statement,it should stand on it's own merrits,regardless of who made the statement.something you have not been able to do thus far.



Forget about sports,games and rules for a second.When a gracie family member trains to defend and uphold the gracie name from a possible real fight challenge.I would imagin they would be training in arts that they believe to be effective,last time I heard rorions sons were training in boxing & wrestling to supplement their jiujitsu,NOT Matsumura orthodox.


Last time I heard ralph,renzo,ryan,charles,rodrigo and most of all the gracies supplement their jiujitsu with boxing skills and we are not just talking about sport games you call ufc or pride.The gracies because of who they are prepare themselves to uphold the gracie name with possible challenges in schools,seminars and different outings and these challenge fights are definitely not sport games.

For your information Carlson gracie was and is a firm believer in boxing skills since the early 60s and again we are not talking about sports with rules,we are talking about defending the gracie name in a real fight challenge with no rules.

I am very surprised that you are constantly allowed to come on these threads and continue to make bigoted statements without any factual
resource.


Hector Gomez

Goju Man
3rd June 2003, 01:52
I am very surprised that you are constantly allowed to come on these threads and continue to make bigoted statements without any factual
Hector, are you still having computer problems with your IP address at home? Maybe you should PM this guy, he at least knows something or someone on how to beat the banning system. Otherwise, I have him on my ignore list. He has certainly shown himself here to everyone on this forum, even some of the more traditional guys on here. As far as challenges go, didn't I hear something about a Gracie recently having to put up on a challenge at a seminar? No rules on that one from what I understand. Those challenges are not uncommon, several BJJ instructors have had them, one of them down here in Fla. You know, the problem with fighting is this, it's easy to sit in a dojo under ideal friendly conditions and work twenty tuite combos to every attack and what not. However, in a real situation, the chances of landing the fatal or ko blow is significantly low. After that, you are going to find yourself in a very uncomfortable position. It's very hard to mount a counter tuite attack when the punches or kicks hitting you on the ground seem to be in the hundreds. Your probable options at that point: Try looking for the nerve strike and hope one of his strikes doesn't ko you or worse. The most likley reaction is that of a defensive posture. Being he is such good friends with Caique, now the Gracies, who knows who he's going to throw out next, there are some dojos in Texas still waiting to teach that lesson, or try Caique or any of his close Gracie friends.

Gene Williams
3rd June 2003, 03:22
Hector, This guy Troof used to go by Machimura...writes the same, talks the same. Just put him on your ignore list and let's keep the discussion going. Why the mods don't kick this guy off is beyond me. Anyway, Manny you are right about the reality check that a real attack gives you. All the 3 step, partner work and dojo sparring goes out the window. You just react and hope you can maneuver to strike a good blow or bend a finger or lock a wrist or something. I learned that applying a choke in the dojo on the mat is a hell of a lot easier than it is on a live s.o.b. who doesn't know karate but is just mean as hell. Then you end up doing something really un-karate like climbing on top of him and smashing him in the face 2 or 3 times until he kind of relaxes:D And, all that is before the cops get there and you have to explain it all and hope the witnesses don't lie. But, I still think kata is important...where the hell did that come from...sorry:p Gene

Harry Cook
3rd June 2003, 09:17
Totally agree Mr. Williams, and to get back to the discussion, isn't this why Gichin Funakoshi wrote in his 20 Precepts "kata wa tadashiku, jissen wa bettsu mono" (no.18) "Practising kata is one thing, and engaging in a real fight is another".
Yours,
Harry Cook

hector gomez
3rd June 2003, 13:17
Mr.Cook,

Hope everything is doing well.Mr.Antonio"kahuna"Bustillo has just about convinced me to order your big shotokan bible book.I know for a fact that it will probably help me in clearing up a lot of misunderstandings that I may have about my original art.

There is a lot of people that have expressed interest and would love to hear your opinion,without puting you on the spot(which I think I already have)but could you please tell us what you percieve to be shotokans major contribution to karate?


Also while I am at it,if I could kill two birds with one stone.I have read somewhere that you have dabbled in Muaythai.Any opinions
on your Muaythai experience would be a big plus.THANKS


Hector gomez

Harry Cook
3rd June 2003, 22:05
Dear Mr. Gomez,
that is very kind of Mr. Bustillo; if you do buy my Shotokan history I hope it is of interest. I think that Shotokan imposed a reasonably rigorous structure on karate which all the styles copied in the main. The grading system, the development of a fairly rational training methodolgy, especially towards large groups etc were pioneered by the Shotokan dojos in the universities. Of course in the process some valuable things were lost, and the role of kata in training changed; they became ends in themselves instead of means to an end.
The directness and simplicity of Shotokan was also of value, especially for beginners, but again that became too fixed, and so developing good basics became an end in itself. I think the idea of practicality, or riai got lost or mislaid as well.
Yes, I have some experience of Thai methods, primarily via the Praya Pichai camp; as far as I am concerned the training methods are excellent, and I find they merge quite easily into the Goju Ryu training I received from Morio Higaonna sensei. In a sense methods such as Muay Thai, and to some extent Brazilian Capoeira as well as modern ju-jutsu etc provide a necessary counterpoint to what can be the over-formalised approaches promoted by some Japanese and Western karate teachers, of a variety of styles.
I think that Thai boxing is primarily concerned with fighting efficiency and efficacy, so the training methods tend towards the practical; they are also open to change and adaption according to the circumstances. These attributes in theory exist in all karate systems but in reality there is a resistance to change, usually justified by a spurious claim of "tradition". Of course all the founders/leading practitioners of Okinawan and Japanese karate systems wetre concerned with practicality and effectiveness, which is ironic when you see what happens today.
To go back to the main point; Shotokan provided a structure which was useful, but which can become a prison instead of a shelter. Once the ends of training are accorded their proper value and the means are seen to be temporary and subject to change then things will get better, but as long as egos and the needs of business frustrate this development then Shotokan and other systems will be held back.
Yours,
Harry Cook

Jock Armstrong
3rd June 2003, 23:59
Gene, you have to stop using common sense and logic in your posts- your confusing people!! As to the hit first/lock after- thats the way! Thats why Jujutsu and Aikijutsu have those tittle "softeners" in there. Redirection is fine but in a grab situation like you said-bash is good. Better judged by twelve than carried by six......you have to be alive to appreciate your complications......:beer:

Goju Man
4th June 2003, 01:09
Gene, thanks. Karate had its challenges and fights a long time ago, I'm sure that is why it changed from what was learned in China to what the Okinawans practised. The Gracies have to always be on top of combat in its totality because they often do have to defend it for real. You can bet the other guy is trying to do that. But even with all that, as you said, sometimes something un like what you were trained for.

Harry, you have some great points. I would like to ask you one of my own questions. One kata I learned and like much is Naihanchi/Tekki shodan. The Nianchi foot movement might indicate a sweep when moving in the kata. In The Tekki, it is very exaggerated, almost a front kick. Why the difference in the two?

Gene Williams
4th June 2003, 03:19
Hi Manny, I'll answer from the Shito-ryu perspective. The foot movement you are talking about is often interpreted as a simple front kick, although I was taught it as a sweep or kick. In general, Naihanchi (Okinawan version) is not as exagerrated in its movements as Tekki (JKA). Gene

Goju Man
4th June 2003, 11:39
That was the obvious interpretation but I had never really heard it. Thanks. Gene, are you Hayashi Ha?

Gene Williams
4th June 2003, 13:28
Hi Manny, I am Motobu-ha Shito-ryu, descended through Shogo Kuniba/Seishin-kai, NKJU. I started in Shorin-ryu back in the late sixties, then through 3 years of Wado, then to Shito-ryu, where I have been ever since. Gene

hector gomez
4th June 2003, 14:02
Mr.Cook,

That was an excellent response.I am glad to hear about your openmindness to a lot of other arts.I would like to believe that in the long run,the whole shotokan movement did more good than bad.

I believe the practicality of the muaythai low round kick for a street application would be a great tool to have in anybodys arsenal.


Gojuman,

My theory on the tekki kata would be that the roaches in japan were bigger than in okinawa,thus creating a need for a larger stomping effect.


Hector Gomez


:p

Gene Williams
4th June 2003, 14:19
The place I lived back in the seventies...all the roaches wore black belts. I flipped the light on late one night and they were all doing Sanchin in front of the couch :D

Bustillo, A.
4th June 2003, 15:19
Originally posted by Harry Cook
... In a sense methods such as Muay Thai, and to some extent Brazilian Capoeira as well as modern ju-jutsu etc provide a necessary counterpoint to what can be the over-formalised approaches promoted by some Japanese and Western karate teachers, of a variety of styles.
I think that Thai boxing is primarily concerned with fighting efficiency and efficacy, so the training methods tend towards the practical; they are also open to change and adaption according to the circumstances. These attributes in theory exist in all karate systems but in reality there is a resistance to change, usually justified by a spurious claim of "tradition". Of course all the founders/leading practitioners of Okinawan and Japanese karate systems wetre concerned with practicality and effectiveness, which is ironic when you see what happens today.
Yours,
Harry Cook



Perfect analysis. Nailed it.

(SFA honorary memebrship & T-shirt w/logo complimentary)

hector gomez
4th June 2003, 22:12
Just when I thought this topic was overanylzed from every point of view,I get a call from a good friend,aparently he was completely baffled that we had not even mentioned one of the most important contributions that shotokan has done for karate.


He states that the high ranking innercore from the JKA along with their many students from the universtities began researching scientific studies on physcology,physiology,kinesiology and it's relationship to karate.They began to breakdown every little movement and detail of karate thru the world of science.The studies that were done was mostly to understand why things worked and why they didn't

Never in the history of karate was this art ever broken down studied,and analyzed to such a high degree.In okinawa the training mostly emphasized strength training.The JKA did various studies on the cardiovascular system and it's relationship with karate along with altering some of different stances for better results,thus improving the overall athletic performance of the karateman.


Sounds like some sort of contribution to me,then again,I am just the middle man here relaying the message.

Hector Gomez

Goju Man
5th June 2003, 00:01
Hector, I've heard something along those lines but not in that detail. Harry would be the one to shed light on this subject.

My theory on the tekki kata would be that the roaches in japan were bigger than in okinawa,thus creating a need for a larger stomping effect. Those sound like Texas roaches, everything is bigger in Texas.:D

The place I lived back in the seventies...all the roaches wore black belts. I flipped the light on late one night and they were all doing Sanchin in front of the couch
USAGA Sanchin or Okinawa?:p

Bustillo, A.
5th June 2003, 00:18
Originally posted by hector gomez
Mr.Cook,


My theory on the tekki kata would be that the roaches in japan were bigger than in okinawa,thus creating a need for a larger stomping effect.


Hector Gomez


:p

Another possibility. A Spanish Flamenco dance company toured Japan during the 1930's and the university 'old boys' adopted some of the dynamic stomping actions. However, they forget to kiai "Ole'" so it doesn't have the same effect.

Goju Man
5th June 2003, 00:41
Another possibility. A Spanish Flamenco dance company toured Japan during the 1930's and the university 'old boys' adopted some of the dynamic stomping actions. However, they forget to kiai "Ole'" so it doesn't have the same effect.
It is a well kept secret that there are "hidden" fighting techniques in the dance, the kiai was substituted with an "ole'" as to hide the finishing nerve attack strike. :eek:

Harry Cook
5th June 2003, 11:52
Thank you for the t-shirt and membership of the SFA Mr. Bustillo - I shall wear it with great pride.
For the application of the moves in Tekki/Naihanchi one of the most useful approaches in my experience is the two man set based on the kata taught by the Yuishinkai group established by Inoue sensei. It has some nice low line kicks/sweeps to an opponent's shin/groin - quite painful.
I have also been told/read that the JKA conducted research into techniques and training methods, and of course some information on punching speed, etc was included in Nakayama sensei's books, and also in Okazaki sensei's work on Shotokan. However as far as I know there is no publication which makes this kind of material available for discussion or criticism, so it is difficult to know how valid any such research was, and if in fact it did take place. I suspect that the bulk of this material was actually the reports written by the trainees on the JKA instructors course.
As for the low level Muay Thai shin kick, one of the dan grades in my dojo is a policeman and a police self defense instructor. He has reported great success with this technique when smiting the ungodly!
Yours,
Harry Cook

Goju Man
5th June 2003, 20:18
You know it seems this thread is almost going full circle. A lot has been made in the past of Shotokans' knoledge or lack thereof of bunkai. Maybe they didn't believe in the practicality of bunkai, or maybe they just believed scientifically that if they performed their techniques faster, stronger and more precise than their opponent, they would'nt have a need to know it. I personally have seen video tapes of bunkai from many different styles, and although they are probably not teaching to the extent of their research, I can say that even their basic applications simply won't work. Nevertheless, they probably believed being in better shape, being faster and more precise with their techniques is what they needed. It kind of parallels Kano's transformation of Jiu Jitsu into Judo. It may not have all the deadly techniques in it, but there is no denying its effectiveness.:)

CEB
5th June 2003, 20:34
Is Bunkai a Karate equivalent to Uchikomi? Or can it be?

Goju Man
5th June 2003, 20:38
Hey Ed, what's up? It probably could be, but I think it's more in line with fighting drills more than bunkai.

hector gomez
5th June 2003, 20:55
Hi Ed,

Yes kata could be interrpreted as uchikomi.The thing is......all of these long winding kata/bunkai debates almost always end up comparing uchikomi(drills)to traditional katas.Which is mostly what eclectic practicioners are always trying to present at the beggining of all of these debates.

Hector Gomez

CEB
5th June 2003, 21:11
Bunkai kumite dude does X attack you do Y counter.

Fighting drill dude throws X attack you do counter Y.


Sounds the same to me. Im too slow to figure out the real difference. I think it all gets back to the Dojo Jargon issue.

Maybe if you have a group of guys who want to train hard you are OK and if you have a group of pansies that just want to hang out in white pajamas you're in trouble no matter what the professed method is. :)

hector gomez
5th June 2003, 21:15
Bingo ED,

Your SFA membership/T-shirt and logo is in the mail.:wave:

Hector Gomez

Goju Man
6th June 2003, 02:00
Maybe if you have a group of guys who want to train hard you are OK and if you have a group of pansies that just want to hang out in white pajamas you're in trouble no matter what the professed method is.
Even Okinawa Toudi?:laugh: Bottom line, you're right on.:)



Hector and Manny don't ever think that Ted or John are on any traditionalists side.
They seem to be on your side Tatsu, I mean Shorinichi, I mean Troof, I mean Caique rep, I mean Dr., I mean Bryan, lee...........:rolleyes:

I'll remember your names forever, and I'll make sure to speak of you guys as much as possible when I talk to the MMAs guys I know (who you claim I don't know- geniuses).
Well that will be quite a few!laugh:
Someone didn't take a nap today eh?:p

Goju Man
6th June 2003, 02:08
Actually Ed, It's the formal practise of kata that I was referring to. Uchikomi and partner drills would be the same. My bad.:)

CEB
6th June 2003, 02:42
Originally posted by hector gomez
Bingo ED,

Your SFA membership/T-shirt and logo is in the mail.:wave:

Hector Gomez

Thanks, I will wear it proudly. Kahuna and Tokon have my address. Take care.

Goju Man
6th June 2003, 03:27
Ok Gene, you're next on the shirt list. The SFA is getting pretty distinguished.:) And for the logo on the SFA shirt? Sagasu and Tokon, South Beach Tag Team Champions performing various bunkai oyo at an event no too long ago. :D

Gene Williams
6th June 2003, 10:32
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I love it!!! Gene

Rob Alvelais
6th June 2003, 13:56
Originally posted by Goju Man
Ok Gene, you're next on the shirt list. The SFA is getting pretty distinguished.:) And for the logo on the SFA shirt? Sagasu and Tokon, South Beach Tag Team Champions performing various bunkai oyo at an event no too long ago. :D

Hey, what about me? :( I'm alread an honorary member of FIMA, in Talahassee.

Rob

hector gomez
6th June 2003, 14:05
Rob,

I have a good friend down here(JF)that has nothing but good things to say about you,welcome to the SFA my brother.


Hector Gomez:cool:

Bustillo, A.
6th June 2003, 14:22
Originally posted by hector gomez
Rob,

I have a good friend down here(JF)that has nothing but good things to say about you,welcome to the SFA my brother.
Hector Gomez:cool:


It's true. On UFC and 'Pride' nights when everyone gets together to watch the matches and between us argueing with Josie Fundora against fist chambering by the hip or ribs, among other things, Josie F. does speak highly of you.

Now if we can get Sugimoto to attend. That would be something.

Rob Alvelais
6th June 2003, 14:42
Thanks Guys! :nw:

If I'm ever in So Fl, I'll work on getting Sugi to come along.

Rob

Sochin
6th June 2003, 17:42
Mornin' guys,

here is a quote from the f.a.q. page:

"Ignore lists are used for those people who's messages you wish not to read. By adding someone to your ignore list, those messages posted by these individuals will be hidden when you read a thread."

You create an ignore list in your "user cp" (btton above). It goes like this...if someone is harrassing you and you reply, they get their thrill. If you ignore them they don't but it can be hard so WHEN you use the ignore list, you won't even see their offensive post, but I will, and I will deal with it, (sooner or later, remember, I'm on the west coast and sometimes can't even get to e-budo, shudder) and the topic doesn't get cluttered with nasty replies to a post that has been clipped.

Try it, you'll like it!

Goju Man
6th June 2003, 21:13
If I'm ever in So Fl, I'll work on getting Sugi to come along.
Rob, welcome aboard.:toast:
Ted, I guess we need to send you a membership. According to an unnamed source, (Troof) you and John are not traditional, and are supposedly just as messed up as the rest of us.:) Isn't he making your job that much harder?:D Don't worry Ted, all of us eclectics know how you feel.:D

Sochin
7th June 2003, 16:58
Yes, I saw that.

But hey! my other's said worse about me and some of it was even true so this is nothing! :)

I yanked his post for the swearing and the fact that it had one purpose, to harrass.

Bustillo, A.
7th June 2003, 23:12
Originally posted by Sochin
Yes, I saw that.


I yanked his post for the swearing and the fact that it had one purpose, to harrass.

Just curious.

Where can the rest of us apply for the same e-budo Master Card/ Visa or Carte Blanche--are they still around?-- so we can swear, harrass and it not result in constant warnings or banned.

Gene Williams
8th June 2003, 00:17
I want one!! :D Gene

Goju Man
8th June 2003, 00:58
Ted, I know it's not easy being cheesy.:D Your job isn't that either. If not guys like that, then you have Goju man starting some kind of protest thread.:D You do a good job Ted.:)

Goju Man
8th June 2003, 01:01
Where can the rest of us apply for the same e-budo Master Card/ Visa or Carte Blanche--are they still around?-- so we can swear, harrass and it not result in constant warnings or banned.
That's true Antonio, I haven't seen him warned. As for being banned, how many times would this be? Three I'm counting. I wonder if Tokon can get a raincheck, he's only been banned once.