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Bustillo, A.
20th May 2003, 15:49
An example of a conversation that often comes up.


Not long ago, another instructor--who is much older than your's truly-- and I visited a dojo. Afterwards, we discussed the training session and he commented, "In certain areas they lack formality." We had witnessed a strict, disciplined class, so I asked him to explain what he meant. "It's obvious," he said, "their lack of the proper terminology...for the techniques, they don't use ANY of the Japanese terms."
_________________________________________

Many of us had Japanese instructors and at the time, for several reasons, using the Japanese terms were just part of the learning process; it became a habit and the norm.

Nowadays, is it really necessary? It does not make a style more legit or authentic.

Today, I don't plan to erase tehm from my memory. And it is interesting to note that there are a few terms like 'dojo', 'sensei', etc. that have become indigeneous to the MA scene. However, I've noticed that for many students the foriegn terms get in the way of learning. The worst cases, ...*(for my upcoming example, choose any state you like-I'll choose Texas)... the born and raised in the Long Horn State, who during the day, he is a normal cowboy boot struttin', gallon hat wearing businessman yet one step in the dojo and he acquires a Japanese accent.--The horror--

It is an individual choice on how to conduct classes. And not to make it a wrong or right issue, nor a point, counterpoint thread. Instead, since using the terms has become so much a part of the training and learning process it goes beyond the topic of 'language'. It would be interesting to read everyone's personal take on it and why some schools think it is important to include the Japnese terms and why others do not.

Casper Baar
20th May 2003, 16:34
Hello,

In the dojo where I train the Japanese names are used for techniques stances, etc. For beginners the Dutch name of a technique is said after the Japanese, after a while it's assumed you know the meaning of the Japanese names.
This has helped me when reading books in English or following clinics by Japanese teachers. I've been browsing this forum for a while now and I found the English terminology used confusing at times. To me Japanese is the international language for karate. Much like biologists use Latin to name plants, we use Japanese to name techniques etc. This helps in the communicating between karateka’s with different languages. Perhaps this isn’t necessary for styles/ schools that are more national /local where books and highgrade teachers all come in one language.
Also in any translation information gets lost. I think it’s good to use your first language so you can start learning and use the original language so you can continue to learn.
As a third point I liked to say I think using Japanese is cool.

I think it’s funny to see the culture/ habits in our dojo (I’ve noticed this is the same in other Dutch dojo’s I’ve been). For instance we bow when entering/ leaving the dojo and before and after exercises but we use first names even with most highgrade Dutch teachers. I.m.o. both the Japanese and the Dutch habits have their place and use when practising a Japanese martial art in the Netherlands.

Casper

Rob Alvelais
20th May 2003, 16:36
Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
Nowadays, is it really necessary?

I think in some situations it's very necessary, but not on the whole. It just depends. Let me give you an example.

In our organization, we interact with senior instructors (i.e., Kenzo Mabuni) who only speak Japanese. Also, we have a large, very large, contingent of people from other countries who don't speak English. So, in situations where Mr. Mabuni is teaching or where English isn't the common language, the terminology is quite helpful. At least I found it to be. In a seminar where Mr. Mabuni was teaching, I wasn't where I could see what he was doing at a particular point. However, he did announce what he was doing, using the Japanese terms, so I didn't miss a beat.

Last year, we had a seminar with a Goju instructor who spoke only Japanese and Spanish. It wasn't so bad, since he spoke Spanish, but the Japanese terms helped out with my collegues who didn't speak either language.

So, if this sort of thing isn't something that one's likely to encounter, then the Japanese terminology isn't necessary at all. However if it is, I, at least, have found it helpful.

Rob

Markaso
20th May 2003, 16:41
Mr. Bustillo

All I can say is what I've been learning for the past 15 or so years, in Japan and that has been, of course, the Japanese terms. Not sure if I could figure out good enough translations for some of the moves or Kata and or the Kihon (basics) to be any help. So in my case the Japanese terms are a lot easier to learn as well as teach, considering most of the people I come in contact with are Japanese.

As for deminishing the art if the original terms are not used ...... Hmmmmm ....... I think not. As for the learning the terms getting in the way of someones learning the art ........ It shouldn't. For me, here and now, and where I am, It is the norm.

By the way, good thread!:toast:

dlm303
20th May 2003, 17:23
I've only been studying karate since February of this year. Our dojo uses japanese terms and the students are required to learn them. At times, it's been quite frustrating to learn both the move and the japanese term. I don't know, however, whether it would be any easier to learn the move and the english term. As time passes, it's gotten easier and, I have to admit, I do think it's pretty cool to know the japanese. ;)

Isshin Dragon
20th May 2003, 19:09
Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
The worst cases, ...*(for my upcoming example, choose any state you like-I'll choose Texas)... the born and raised in the Long Horn State, who during the day, he is a normal cowboy boot struttin', gallon hat wearing businessman yet one step in the dojo and he acquires a Japanese accent.--The horror--

'Lone Star State'...and I don't have a single pair of cowboy boots. :D Anyway, we use the Japanese names as well. It takes some getting used to, but it's not too bad. I think we use the english translations about as much as we use the Japanese ones...but I'm sure as we progress we'll start using mainly or only the Japanese ones. I don't really view it as necessary, and if no Japanese terms were used, I wouldn't see the training being affected.

hector gomez
20th May 2003, 19:27
Great topic,

Markaso and Mr Avelais bring up a very good point in that,if one is dealing directly or indirectly with the main source of knowledge and that main source of knowledge is of another language,it is of much importance to bridge that gap of communications,even if it means learning another language.


I find this problem when one is learning brazilian jiujitsu from a brazilian instructor.It would help out imensley if you could speak portuquese,then again it should not become such a big obstacle in leaning an art that it would stall the learnig process .

Too many times some instructors get caught up with learning more of the language in order to impress as opposed to learning what's most important.


Olympic Sports like Judo that are accepted world wide should use the japaneese terminology out of respect for the origins of the sport and also so everyone can be on the same page more or less.


A perfect example would be the Cuban womens Judo team some of there elite players might only know the names of the most popular wazas and of course they know the terminology of all the rules but when it comes to training,they talk and train in the spanish language 95% of the time.

Who can argue with their success?


Hector Gomez

Markaso
20th May 2003, 23:03
Originally posted by hector gomez
Great topic,



A perfect example would be the Cuban womens Judo team some of there elite players might only know the names of the most popular wazas and of course they know the terminology of all the rules but when it comes to training,they talk and train in the spanish language 95% of the time.

Who can argue with their success?


Hector Gomez

Mr. Gomez

It would be interesting to know the translations that they have come up with in spanish for some of the waza's. I find , though, that Judo is not as command orientated in matches as Karate(Go Jyu Ryu) and other forms of Karate. Yes It is nice to be on the same page in that regard but I am not at all against using something that has or is working either. No you can not argue with their success( the Cubans womens team).


Points well made:toast:

ichibyoshi
20th May 2003, 23:16
Not from a karate BG but nevertheless...

In most kendo dojo the Japanese terminology is strictly adhered to. I often think of the equivalent being a fencing salle (sp?) where French is the technical language. As Hector said above, it pays respect to the country of origin. It also takes you out of your normal head-space and readies you for training, like putting on the funny clothes and doing all the funny bowing.

However kendo doesn't have as long a list of technical terms as karate and judo have, and the ones that we have describe fairly straightforward actions.

People like Ellis Amdur and Liam Keeley have written passionately about the need for preserving not just the technical form but also the "flavour" of a particular koryu. I think this is important in gendai budo as well. Language is something that excites the tongue, is it not?

Goju Man
21st May 2003, 01:39
I agree that the terminology of where it is coming from needs to be universal. A zenkutso dachi is the same anywhere in the world. A front stance can have fifty different translations depending on the country. BJJ is the same. I could go to Brazil, and though I may not catch everything, an uma plata is the same here or there. I have, however seen some guys go overboard and talk english with more of an accent than Pat Morita in the Karate Kid movies. I think that's a little, make that a lot overboard.:)

Markaso
21st May 2003, 01:46
Originally posted by ichibyoshi
Not from a karate BG but nevertheless...
Language is something that excites the tongue, is it not?

No, not for me. A good wine(red) and/great food excites my tongue.:toast:

Some of the words I have to say in Japanese , in the Dojo and out, confuse mine.:)

Goju Man
21st May 2003, 02:35
Ken, funny is an anglo american, using the Japanese terminoly in a Japanese accent. Imagine a big blonde, Texas born good 'ole boy talking like Mr. Myagi. Too much. I've actually witnessed these and others.:D

Gene Williams
21st May 2003, 03:47
I lived next to a couple once, a Puerto Rican guy who had married a German woman. I swear to god they named their kid Wolfgang Morales! They had fights you wouldn't believe...we lived right next to each other in those old government 235 houses...I've never heard as many swear words at 3 a.m. in Spanish and German. Anyway, I like the Japanese terminology...when I go to the dojo, I want to leave my everyday world behind...I don't even have a phone in the dojo. It creates an atmosphere that is apart from the everyday. There are certain techniques and kata that are better understood if you know the Japanese terminology. As far as it being essential to skill, nah. Hector, I just like tradition. You can't whip any ass with it, but it just makes it all more interesting.:D Hector in a fight: "I'm not running any kata, and I'm not speaking Japanese, I'm just gonna' whip your ass in plain old English (or Spanish, if you prefer).:D Gene

Goju Man
21st May 2003, 04:08
Gene, that must have been a riot. I lived overseas in Germany back in the eighties, and I'll tell you they can hold their own.:D You know, whatever you're training in, that's what you speak. Imagine a down home good 'ole boy saying, ahh Geesan, yu much sent a huma. All this while wearing a cat deisel hat and a bud in hand. Oh the horror!:D

Bustillo, A.
21st May 2003, 19:33
Interesting points of view and many good reasons to keep the Japanese terms.

Casper Bear,
You mentioned clinics. Good point.

Rob A.,
The situation you describe gives a perfect example when knowledge of the foreign terms would be to everyone's advantage. No dispute there.

Markaso,
You train in Japan. As the saying goes, "when in Rome do as the Roamns do."

D. Mains
Your POV is noteworthy and the frustration of a beginner should serve as a reminder for instructros. Yet, you are enjoying the process and feel cool learning the terms. cool.

Barker, from Lone Star state,
I was thinking about the university, and then thinking about the translation from Japanese to Spannish and then to English and then entering all that into Excel... but , yes I stand corrected.

Ben S.,
Maintaining a certain 'flavor'. I understand, yet, I can also see how we can keep the essence of something without foreign terminology.
i. e.
My no-cowboy boots friend from Texas accompanies me for dinner. We choose a spanish restaurant. We order the same plate, a delicious mouth-watering 'arroz con pollo'. My Lone star, big belt buckle wearing friend shouts,
"Hot diggity dog, damn this 'yellow rice and chicken' tastes great.!" I nod and agree, "Sabroso."

Gene,
Your buddy?
'A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.'

I support the arguement that the dojo is expected to have a different atmosphere. However, sometimes it is just too much, 'isogi!' 'yonju go do' 'naotte' 'yoshi koi' use your 'sokuto'... and you want to say, "Listen, I'm a black beans and fried banana eating Cuban. You are a Monster truck watching Bubba, so enough already."
At times, bit of simplification will suufice.

I will toss this out for us to consider.
How many times have we witnessed students use the wrong defense or attack, not because they didn't know the mechanics, but because of confusion of the term?

Learning the technical skills is difficult enough. Plus, a long list of foreign terms. No doubt, they will eventually learn. However, for some students, it will be awhile before they acquire enough knowledge-- coolness,-- and they can syncronize everything together so the synapses work smoothly in order for them to be, cool.

Markaso
21st May 2003, 23:12
Mr. Bustillo

Good points and of course once again well said. I think, though, that you have made an excellent argument for staying with the art that one is training in. Yes, at the begining it is hard to learn all those terms and knowing which means what. But then again, if it,the training ,was easy ........ everyone would be doing it:) .

dlm303
21st May 2003, 23:46
you are enjoying the process and feel cool learning the terms. cool.
you are enjoying the process and feel cool learning the terms. cool.

Mr. Bustillo,

This may be nitpicking, but I did not say that I "feel cool" learning the Japanese terms. I did say that it is pretty cool to learn them. I was inartful. I did not mean to imply that it makes me feel cool/hip/whatever to learn the Japanese terms. Rather, I meant to say, and should have done so, that I feel that I have gained something through the challenge of learning the terms in another language as opposed to simply learning the basic moves (which hasn't been simple at all :eek: ) and the english translations.

Nyuck3X
22nd May 2003, 01:19
I think there is a bit of romance in using the original
Japanese terms. Yes I know that there are those who just want to
throw hands and feet and aren't concerned with that side of it.
To each his/her own.

I do agree that there needs to be a standard language to draw from.
Science uses Latin, Dance uses French and for computers, English.
Japanese only seems logical because it was one of the first nations
to reveal it's arts to the world. Story: I once dropped into
a dojo in Germany. I didn't know the language at the time but
I was able to keep up because I knew the basics in Japanese.
I think you can go too far with it too. Basics, left, right and
courtesy should suffice. Anymore and I think you ask too much.
I think at Yudansha, you should be able to decide for yourself
how much you want to learn.

Just my thoughts...

Peace

Bustillo, A.
22nd May 2003, 19:30
Note.

On a preveious message, I did not intend to single out Deb Mains' comment about 'it's cool.' There were a couple of other folks who mentioned it too.

__________________________

Originally posted by Nyuck3X

Story: I once dropped into
a dojo in Germany. I didn't know the language at the time but
I was able to keep up because I knew the basics in Japanese.
I think you can go too far with it too. Basics, left, right and
courtesy should suffice. Anymore and I think you ask too much.
I think at Yudansha, you should be able to decide for yourself
how much you want to learn.
Just my thoughts...
Peace
__________________________________________

Yes, I agree, in certain situations, the terms come in handy.
There was an ocasion when two Japanese instructors, who were on vacation, came in and requested to train at my dojo. They didn't speak English. Thus, for their benefit, I had to revert to giving most of the commands, techniques and drills in their language.

Examples were given about Latin, Greek and so on used for cerain feilds of study. Indeed. However, if you make a mistake about a certain planet, star, galaxy, or the entire cosmos you don't have to worry about it falling on your head and knocking you out. Mistake a gedan for a jodan and..??? So, I consider that somewhat different.

Therefore, when teaching, and to decrease the confusion in the students mind while they are trying to learn the mechanics of techniques, I am for major down-sizing of the foreign terms.

CEB
22nd May 2003, 20:01
I feel I have to use the Japanese terminology. With my organization I can only promote people to Shodan. Though I have say in whether or not people test for gradings beyond shodan the exams are administred by an examination board of various Kyokai instructors and knowledge of the Japanese karate vocabulary is required. Also there are 2 written exams I have to give one at 5th kyu and one at Shodan and those paper exams require knowledge of some Japanese vocabulary.

The Japanese terms don't really seem to be a big deal one way or the other because I am not a very verbal kind of guy. I usually make an effort to do a physical demo of everything i ask for.

My teacher is Japanese. Funny thing about having Japanese as a common language is when I first met sensei in 86 I had a harder time understanding his Japanese words than his English. Though I knew all the Japanese terms he used, when he said them with his real Japanese accent they didn't sound much like the way my American teachers had said them.

More and more I am using strictly English when I work Judo with my boy. He understands the Japanese terms but I seem to get that deer in the headlights look more often when I say something to him like Yoko Shiho Gatame as opposed to side pin or side mount. It isn't that he don't understand as much as it it some sort of communication gap from not relating as much to the lingo I guess. Who knows half the time I don't think I understand my childern anyway.

Sochin
22nd May 2003, 21:40
Antonio,

I see this topic as support for my Karate Forum Etiquette topic that is a sticky note at the top of the Karate forum, that I know everyone reads at least once a month!!!

So,

Thanks! :)

Markaso
22nd May 2003, 22:47
We do? .........:idea: Oh yeah that's right, we do. :laugh:

3rd June 2003, 01:41
In my early years of training I started out in Judo and have had many oriental professors whoi spoke broken english, so to me it was a valuable thing to speak dojo-ese.

But in reality as I have grown older and a little bit smarter, what truly matters is the knowledge which crosses the boundary of language, culture and ego. It's Ok to call out terms in class but some people want to be tooo "japanese" and make it too obvious that they are better at lingusitics than the art they are doing physically. To them I say, chill out dude, stand at attention, punch, kick, grab, twist, yank, and throw and bow respectfully.

That being said I too will go enjoy some "arros y frijoles negros", Oh wait but this is America and it is still an English speaking country so - rice and black beans.

Sayonara - Adios - Goodbye

Jock Armstrong
3rd June 2003, 02:42
ever heard some North Queensland Australians pronounce Japanese words in a dojo- any resemblance to the original is purely coincidental [not to mention unintelligible to a Japanese]. I once heard a guy refer to "yakusoku kumite" as a "yuksoo". mind you, he was a twit of the first order. using Japanese in the dojo is OK. I teach inEnglish but students are required to learn the Japanese terms [after shodan] for the purposes of communicating with other folks. As for the absolute necessity of Japanese - not really. The Japanese did not teach in Okinawan dialect- they translated the stuff into Japanese, in the process completely changing the meanings. This is especially visible in kata names; pinan to heian, naihanchi to tekki and so forth. For comp-choose a language and use it. Whether japanese or English, everyone will learn the commands for the comp. I kinda like Japanese but I've reffed in English also [we had Chinese and korean stylists in an "open" comp

Whatever works for you...:beer:

Jock Armstrong
3rd June 2003, 02:45
PS They changed SOME of the meanings- forgive the lousy typing.


"Typos are my nig mare...":eek: :rolleyes:

Jussi Häkkinen
3rd June 2003, 05:49
Heh, I like the japanese terms. Why? Well, they make things simpler. A common vocabulary instead of studying names in finnish, english and japanese.

Why would one need to study the names in many languages? Well, seminars are a first thing that comes to my mind. I live in Finland and, although many people know Nokia, they don't even realize that we could have an own language. Then, whenever some big cheese comes to visit us and teaches a seminar, we should learn the stuff on his language. Now, when they use japanese, it's all simple.

I've been on seminars where the main teachers didn't speak english at all. Why? They couldn't. They only spoke their own language - be it swedish, german, french... and then taught in japanese. I certainly felt easier listening the japanese terms than bulging myself with several languages (not that it would be a bad idea, actually...).

So, japanese only makes things a bit easier for one that tends to attend to many seminars (in countries like Finland, it's almost necessary). It also gives a little added "spice" for training - I admit, I like the language. And the terms are not that hard. After all - one needs to connect the word from the own language to their movements as well (if taught by own language terms), i.e. practically the learning process is required there also.


But I have got myself exposed to languages also - via karate. I now know the terminology rather well in japanese, finnish, english and german. I'm little more limited - but I can handle it - in french, spanish and italian.

And I definitely prefer to use japanese. Just to make things simple.



Hmm. Pronounciation adds occasionally some spice, but I've usually got the term correctly. In Finland this problem is really not an issue - the way finnish is pronounced is very near to japanese pronounciation, often being identical.

hector gomez
3rd June 2003, 14:46
I remember back when we first started training in Japanese karate
our Japanese instructor had only been living in this country for a very short time.

Most of the students in our dojo were having a hard time as it was in tackling two languages in English & spanish.Then along came trying to understand the Japanese terminilogy from a mostly speaking Japanese instructor.

Lucky for us,our instructor was probably learning english alot faster than we were learning japanese since he was living in the states and kind of forced to learn english at a much faster rate.

I think this eventually helped us bridge the gap a lot faster but I still remember begginers coming to class on their first day and being just frozen stiff not from not knowing how to turn left or right or even from not knowing wether to kick with the left foot or right but from simply not understanding what was going on.


I guess If you really love the art you make the commitment to learn at least the basic terminology,so that most is not lost in translation.I have been away from it so long I really only remember.....OSS or is that OSU?lol


Hector Gomez

Goju Man
4th June 2003, 12:46
OSS or is that OSU?lol

It's OOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSS!!!!! Drop now? :D (inside joke)

I had a Cuban sensei with Japanese bloodline. It was like Sugimoto drinking Cuban coffee.:)

Hey, I could have had an Anglo trying to talk like Mr. Myagi.:p

Bustillo, A.
4th June 2003, 15:44
Many good reasons given why and when the foriegn terms are important.
Even so, at times it is surprising to witness organizations with non-Asian instructors and their absolutley no ties, affiliation to the East. They don't attend seminars offered by Japanese or Okinawan instructors, yet they make the students learn more terms and they use more Japanese in the dojo than my Japanese instructor expected his students to know.


Ed mentioned one example of how the terms gets in the way of communication; too often we see'the deer looking into headlights stare.'