Throws invented by kano or other judoka?

[O'Neill]

I often have read about throws devloped by kano sensei (harai goshi, o goshi) but after viewing many books on koryu bujutsu, it is evident that these throws already existed in various jujutsu ryuha. So maybe he catagorized them but he certainly didn't invent them, any thoughts?

[Ben Reinhardt]

Originally posted by O'Neill
I often have read about throws devloped by kano sensei (harai goshi, o goshi) but after viewing many books on koryu bujutsu, it is evident that these throws already existed in various jujutsu ryuha. So maybe he catagorized them but he certainly didn't invent them, any thoughts?

Neither of those throws was invented by Jigoro Kano, especially not O Goshi.

The old uke goshi/harai goshi/tsurikomi goshi story is not in my opinion true.

Ben R.

[tommysella]

Hi O'Neil,

In the book "Koryu Bujutsu" you can read what techniques is included in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu:

"Tenjin Shinyo-ryu techniques included in judo are: koshinage (hip throw), seoinage (shoulder throw), ashibarai (foot sweep), haraigoshi (sweeping hip throw), sukuiashi (foot scoop), kushikitaoshi (one-hand drop), osotogari (major outer reaping throw), sumigaeshi (corner throw) and various masutemi (rear sacrifice) and yokosutemi (side sacrifice) throws, as well as mant of the immobilization, joint locks, and strangling techniques."

Regards,
Tommy

[Jay Vail]

Quite right about "Koryu Bujutsu."

Have you noticed how osotogari changed during the 1950s to what it looked like today?

Also, I would not be surprised if tai otoshi is also of ancient origin. As a matter of fact, the identical throw existed in medieval European combat wrestling. A version is shown in Talhoffer, circa 1467 (Rector translation, plates 85, 94, 194). Another highly useful throw in combat, which is not much used in judo these days, is osoto otoshi. This throw was also included in kampfringen, (Talhoffer plates 181, 204; Fiore, Vadi among others also showed it), as was koshigaruma (Talhoffer plate 178).

[Elliot Harris]

Jay Vail wrote:

Have you noticed how osotogari changed during the 1950s to what it looked like today?

This is certainly the first I've heard this (not to say it isn't true). If so what did it look like? Could you describe it, or better yet - post a link to a picture.

[Jay Vail]

Elliot,

I do not have the capacity to post the photos.

However, if you have access to a decent library, you can find pictures of the hold style of osotogari in Charles Yerkow, “Modern Judo: Volume II, Advanced Techniques (1958), figures 419, 691; Charles Yerkow, “Modern Judo: The Complete Manual of Close Combat” (1942), figure 339; and S.K. Uyenishi, “The Text-Book of Ju-Jutsu as Practiced in Japan” (date indeterminate but probably the 1920s) p. 53 (and accompanying unpaginated photos pages).

The salient difference between the old and new styles is that in the old style, the tori is upright or bending only slightly and there is often a great deal of distance between the tori and uke. Next, the hooking leg actually hooks with tori’s knee bent rather like in a hooking kick behind uke’s knee.

In contrast, in modern osotogari (as illustrated by Steve Cunningham) tori’s shoulder is against uke’s, their bodies are virtually together side by side, and the throwing leg tends to be straight and the contact is often thigh to thigh in a larger sweeping motion.

The old style osotogari is illustrated in other books than these but it disappears, according to my reading, after the 1950s, and in the 60s you see the newer method being shown. From this evidence, I concluded that in the 50s-60s the change was made, although I cannot be sure about that since I have never discussed this with anyone who played judo then. I started training in 1964 and I was taught the newer way of osotogari.

I suspect the old method was the one generally followed in koryu jujutsu. The reason I say this is because the old method seems to be more combat, rather than competition, oriented. It does not rely upon the gi for leverage. Balance can be broken and the throw performed quite well by grasping only a single arm or even by grasping the uke with only a single hand, as I have done myself in kumite many times. In fact, I once threw someone without using my hands at all, just hooked behind the knee. Also, the method of hooking the leg in the older method seems to be a tad quicker. It does not require a forward step to bring the tori side to side with the uke, and the leg movement in the hook is less sweeping and hence faster. However, there is the possibility that uke will twist his leg as he falls, exposing his knee to injury.

I can’t wait to be told by Mark I am all wet.

[MarkF]

Not by this Mark.


The salient difference between the old and new styles is that in the old style, the tori is upright or bending only slightly and there is often a great deal of distance between the tori and uke. Next, the hooking leg actually hooks with tori’s knee bent rather like in a hooking kick behind uke’s knee.


Although you are describing a slightly different throw, you are essentially correct. What you are describing is O Soto Gake, Kake meaning "hook." But in every other way, the distance, pulling uke way over to tori's left (if right-sided) and then sweeping the leg, well, I agree with the differences. In that way, you almost had to do o soto gake.

Find any clips on Masahiko Kimura. He probably revolutionized the throw. His way, was to off-balance to the side and rear, but not nearly as much. He instead met uke's body with his own body, side of chest to side of chest with a lot of force. This (sometimes) forced uke to fall back to his own left leg for balance which allowed the sweep to be nice and clean and making it much more spectacular. The reaction of uke falling back to the off leg isn't necessarily seen that way, but it is felt that way. Other throws have changed in a similar way, as well.

Anyway, getting back to o soto gari, yes, the Kimura way is the way I learned and used that throw. Lots of body contact (the trunk, chest).

I can’t wait to be told by Mark I am all wet.

You may be all wet but you're all right with me. Come to think of it, you ARE wrong because you thought I would...well, you know what I mean.;)


Good point.

Mark

[Jay Vail]

Thank you.:D

[Jay Vail]

Mark, I couldn't remember what osoto gake was so this morning I checked this website for it: http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kosotogake.gif

It shows a clip with tori's left leg clipping uke's right. The throw I was attempting to describe was tori's right leg clipping uke's right leg behind the knee, as in today's osotogari. Both Yerkow and Uyenishi call it the "cross hook throw." Is this different than osotogari?

[MarkF]

Or minor outer hooking throw, yes. It is also a counter to o uchi gari. I can't find a picture to post of it, but there is a throw sometimes referred to as O Soto Gake or Major outer hooking throw.

With tori's kuzushi to the left rear and with more space, the inside leg can hook uke's leg, usually at the bend in the knee, but it is a minor difference. That's what I meant. Hook and throw, pretty much the same as o soto gari, with a bit less of the large sweep.

I shouldn't have mentioned it, because what you said is true of o soto gari. You described exactly what Kimura did with that throw O soto Gari. If you can find it, there is a tape (and on http://judoinfo.com about thirty seconds of the beginning of Kimura's match with Helio Gracie) showing just how many times he threw Gracie in the first thirty seconds (at least three times, perhaps four). It is a 6 Mb clip with Japanese puroresu types calling the match, if it is still there, but that is exactly what you described, and how I learned to do the throw, at least eventually, I did.


Mark

[Jay Vail]

Thanks, Mark. I understand fully now.

[Judokax8]

I have heard it said that in a "gari" type throw, uke is thrown primarily by sweeping the leg/foot. In a "gake" throw, tori uses his leg to fix uke's leg, then throw over the immolbilized leg. Is this correct?

Peace
Dennis

[MarkF]

Well, it could be taken that way, but I've heard ko soto gake and ko soto gari for the same throw. The O soto gake is more of a grasp, but then what is the definition for "kake" in general (Kuzushi/tsukuri/kake and WHAM!) From what I've learned, it is true to an extent. I've seen self-defense o soto gari used strictly as a trip. It is supposed to be a reap, but if you break the throw down, you are reaping the leg which is supposed to be posted. Without the reaping action sufficient to lift uke's leg and body, is it the same action? And if not, wouldn't a hooking action be more effective but less dramatic?

I think you are correct in what it means, but it doesn't necessarily happen that way.

What is the name of that ashi-waza in which one, in a right-side throw, off balances uke to his right, sweeps uke's left foot before he can set it down again by grasping the ankle of uke behind his foot/leg, with the bottom of your foot and/or ankle, dragging/sweeping it toward you or between your (tori's) own legs, while turning uke to his left, where he tries to put that foot down to get his balance again, but you have it grasped and it is not available for him. Uke falls facing you on his left side or back.

It is a difficult throw to pull off, especially if you are grasping his heel/ankle with the bottom of your (tori's) foot. I used to be able to do that throw. The easier variation is to just hook the leg with your ankle/lower leg, and basically doing the same thing (forcing uke to take the fall because the foot is not there anymore) Is it a sweep or a hook, or is it both? Also, what is it called? If you sweep the foot with your foot, is it a different throw than if you hook the leg with your leg?

This isn't a quiz, I really don't know, and never could remember what it was called. I rarely see it today. I rarely saw it then (the sixties and seventies).


Mark

[Judokax8]

Are you talking about the "sticky foot" Ko Soto Gari?

Peace
Dennis

[O'Neill]

Why judo groups claim that so many throws were "invented" by Kano and senior teachers, when they already existed in koryu budo?

[MarkF]

Ahhh, I have forgotten so much of what I used to know that it is increasingly becoming true that I have forgotton more than you know, and that is just the one throw.


Mark

[MarkF]

Why judo groups claim that so many throws were "invented" by Kano and senior teachers, when they already existed in koryu budo?

What judo groups and who is saying that? What exactly did they say? Can you point to some quotes?

It is interesting, but the first thing about judo I was told as a twelve year old was that judo was developed as a different way to practice jujutsu.


Mark

[O'Neill]

I will look up the sources. I have read about Kano inventing differnet throws for various reasons and it just doesn't seem to be true as one looks at the vast curriculum of many of the koryu bujutsu.
I have also heard of Mifune sensei inventing throws that were clearly taught in Koryu arts.

[lemalin66]

I heard that Mifune sensei created sumi otoshi. I don't know whether it was existing before him or not but I know for sure that he was quite an expert since he used to perform this waza in randori on a regular basis. For this we have to really feel the balance of our opponent and exploit the short moment when that balance is broken. By the way breaking the balance was a strong point that Jigoro Kano loved to emphasize.

Martin Durette

[MarkF]

Mifune made all kinds of waza, and even kata. The air throw comes from Mifune, kukinage, and sumiotoshi was one of them. It was explained that he wanted to try throws without touching the torso or legs of the opponent, thus sumi otoshi, and a couple of others. Did he really invent them? It really doesn't matter. Tai-jutsu has limits, new in something like jujutsu with a several century head start makes is difficult to make something up completely new.

There are only so many ways to throw, so it isn't so much that throws were invented, they were rebuilt. Some say Kano "invented" and he had been thinking about it as a teenager, giving speeches on his thoughts, one in which former US President US Grant attended, so while it may not be correct by using the word "invent," adapting a throw for a different path and new reasons to use them, well, you could say it that way. Kano liked to use uke-goshi to explain basics and fundamentals of kuzushi, tsukuri, etc. Left-side usually, based on pictures and the little film existing.


Mark