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CEB
30th May 2003, 17:58
How long does a typical karate class run days?

How much time do karate guys spend on PT (exercise, push-ups ab work, you know strength and endurance building thingys that don't involve doing a punch or a kick) in a typical Karate class these days?

Do you view your in class physical exercise routines

(A) physical readiness training which is crucial or an integral part of your karate training

(B) a quick warming up or limbering process that prepares your muscles and joints for the real training that is about follow.

(C) Something else.

(D) Physical exercise?, Whats that?

Gene Williams
30th May 2003, 18:49
My classes have the reputation of being rough, but I really don't think they are that bad. I feel that I owe the students' physical conditioning something, plus I feel they need to learn to ignore minor discomfort. Here is a typical senior class: Students are expected to hit the makiwara before class (I have shown them the routine I like). We begin with 30 jumping jacks, 30 situps, and 30 knuckle pushups, then go to about ten minutes of stretching. The first 30 minutes of class is non-stop basics in place or up and down the floor. I want everyone breathing hard and sweaty. We then usually move to group kata, some with my counting cadence, some where I start the group but they do the kata at their own pace. I make very short, to the point corrections after the first repetition, usually addressing the whole group. This also runs for about 30 minutes. Next is partner work, which may be sanbon kumite, ippon kumite, or kata bunkai (not rigid, by the numbers bunkai). The last 30 minutes I usually allow seniors to take as free time to train whatever they want, but if they get lazy, I call them back together and do more kata. I walk around the dojo and make corrections, teach new kata, or just harass seniors. We do not use the mats except for really high falls. You won't have mats on the street:( My rule is: minor injuries are ignored, moderate ones are endured, and major ones are properly treated. Some nights I will completely change the routine and do mostly kobudo or partner work. I also have a 1000 punch class which everyone hates and which reminds me I haven't done that one in a while:D Once in a while I will have everyone sit seiza along the wall and call them out one by one and call out a kata for them to do. Sometimes I will do a kata for the class. We do not waste time with point sparring...ever! Beginner's class...God help them. Once they know the basics, it is repetition, repetition, repetition. I have no trouble weeding out those who are not serious, and I never have to say a word. Gene

Goju Man
31st May 2003, 00:55
I like to definitley work up a sweat. Class time is mostly technical time. You will build a sweat doing randori, drills, etc, put it is very technique specific. The supplementary stuff should be done after class time. You need to be good technically and in shape. I will provide the technique with some good work out, but the rest is up to you. Don't get me wrong, I will help with that, too, but not during "class time". That separates the hardcore students from the casual ones. I trained in one particular BJJ school for a while where everyday it was almost a race to see who made it to the buckett. We were in good shape no doubt but technically weak. I got to my instructors school, and though we definitley work up the sweat, I learned more technically in one day than I had in months at the previous school. I ran into a few others from that school that changed to others for the same reason.

sepai 85
31st May 2003, 02:42
Ok this was our brown and black belt class tonight it went from 7:00-9:00

1. We started with 10 minutes of intensive cardio including push ups and crunches

2. We then did stretching for 15 minutes

3. Sanchin dai itchi and sanchin dai ni about 6 times I lost count

4. Kihon

5. Siyunchin broken down into little sections we did each section over and over again then put it all together

6. kakia ussing different bunkai from diffrent kata (we did kakia for about 30 minutes)

yours in shugyo

gmanry
31st May 2003, 04:42
I don't teach karate now, but here is the training plan we use in our taijutsu classes.

Movement drills to warm up (would be basics and line drills in karate)
- includes kamae work
- tobi drills
- basic sanshin kata (solo movements)

Standing partner drills (usually without throws) (ippon kumite in karate maybe)
- set kihon drills
- henka or variations on kihon drills

Ukemi drills (warmup for nagewaza kihon)
- forward/backward rolls
- shikko
- side rolls
- flowing roll drills (taihenjutsu)
- cartwheels and other tumbling (intermediate students and up)

Kihon Happo Torite (nage waza or advanced ippon kumite)
- Inside wrist reversal
- Outside wrist reversal
- Elbow entanglement
- Shoulder lock (oni kudaki=demon crusher):cool:
- Ganseki nage (sort of O goshi and taiotoshi with elbow break)
- Henka on above basics with different entries and attacks

Kihon Happo Torite can be exchanged for a special technical lesson of some sort (special topic). Movement drills can be exchanged for some pad or bag work. Class ends with a light stretch and sometimes some physical exercises (particularly for beginners)

We do supply an inordinate amount of info on physical training outside the dojo. What type of exercise cycles to follow, what type of exercises to choose, when, and why, etc. How to build up to various goals (such as running, you don't just start running). However, we don't spend a lot of time on pushups, situps, etc. in class. The workouts can be tough enough on their own when they flow well. Classes are one and one-half hours long.

Mrose
31st May 2003, 12:06
I'll vouch for Williams Sensei's class. Its top notch and quite educational. I don't remember NOT sweating in class. Even in the winter. I would also like to add that I was lucky lucky enough to experience the 1000 Punch class as a whitebelt in a room full of blackbelts. Driving a manual trans. truck was a bit difficult the next day.:p

Gene Williams
31st May 2003, 12:18
Hi Matt, Sign your real name after your post. Forum rules. Glad you are on board. Hope Japan is good and that you are training somewhere. Come back to us when you get home. Sensei (Gene)

Bustillo, A.
31st May 2003, 12:54
Beginning of class...

100 push-ups, 500 sit-ups, 500 squats and then a short three mile jog.
Just kidding.

After NOT bowing to a picture of a senior citizen on the wall...
a couple of minutes of easy jump rope, or a couple of rounds of half-speed shadowfighting.

And then, to the crux of the matter. Depending on the level of the students, like Gene, basic drills first. Yet, more often than not, class time consists of Thai pad drills, mitts, bag work and sparring drills. Towards the end of class, a few supplementary conditioning and tougherning exercises.

An important note. About ten years ago, on the suggestion and advice of Mr.It's All Good Hector G.--Don Wilson knows him, James Warring knows him and so does Royce--on the hard sparring days, I made it a point to have it at the beginning of class, not at the end.

Goju Man
31st May 2003, 15:22
Kahuna! I hope y'all doin' good up thea.:D We still do that today. When we have the sparring days, a light shadow kick box or jump rope to get the body warm, sparring, and then the bag or whatever. Body conditioning was always done last. After all that, we would go on a nice run, ending up at Amelia Park at the hill, where we did sprints up and down the hill, and finished the run back to the gym. Whew!

Bustillo, A.
31st May 2003, 15:41
Originally posted by Goju Man
Kahuna! I hope y'all doin' good up thea.:D We still do that today.

Thanks Manny,

Doin' just fine 'round dese(these) here pawts(parts).
When I mentioned 'ten years ago and the hard sparring towards the beginning of class' I meant to say that , I implemented that during that time and continue to do so today.

Sochin
1st June 2003, 01:33
I don't have much to add...

I can't lead the warm-ups due to injuries and my brown belts just don't quite get the heart rate up high enough, :(

Classes are much the same as what's been said but

we kick evey day, 20x each leg x 5 kicks. Every class. We also have a tradition that we do 10 crunchies for every person on the floor. Average is 120-150. Visit nights from another dojo in the Institute is hell! I'm still able to take a full power kick or punch to the abs and survive, and so far so good, most punches from kyu grades to the solar plexus. Score big sensei points with those! :D

But on the whole, I don't believe we have the time (2 hrs) to do justice to aerobic and strength training so we go for a toneing of the muscles with enought stretching so we stay loose and don't pop tendons. Weight lifting and running is outside of class.

gmanry
1st June 2003, 02:37
Something to keep in mind is that technical work should be done first, and ideally during different workouts, then endurance work. This is particularly true if the techniques are pretty new for the fighter or if it has been some time since they were reviewed in detail.

At least this is what I have read and trained for some time. I have been to a lot of dojo where the people were overtrained. Somebody always had injuries in the room, and people were always getting hurt. This is usually a sign that the athletes are overtrained and their rest phase is not sufficient.

My TKD instructor had his school on a major highway, upon going to college and training outdoors with my Kyokushin friend from Japan, I figured out that we were: a)overtrained b) suffering from oxygen deprevation from car fumes (I could smell them plain as day in the dojo when I went home for the summer c)doing things in an order than promoted injury because it was calling for techical work after the fatique level was too high. I was in better shape, doing less, when I was training in Kyokushin because the training was smarter. ;)

That is not to say that occassionally a fighter can't learn from the experience of being able to perform technically while very fatiqued, but if it is standard practice, then it is begging for repetitive injury or some type of serious injury.

Just my thoughts and experiences on the matter.

hector gomez
2nd June 2003, 00:49
Ed,

Great thread,I think all of us are always looking for a better training method or routine that could help us achieve a better conditioned body inorder to wistand the streses that we put on it.

In judo and karate class,the mentality has always been to train physical conditioning first before doing any kumite or randori as being tired is something the body needs to get use too and what better way than to kumite/randori when one is tired,besides in jiujitsu one should learn to roll without depending so much on stenghth.

In boxing & kickboxing it's another story, due to the seriousness and probabilty of recieving head blows(something we all want to avoid)it is the norm to spar at the begininng of the workout as the mind and the body is sharp,fresh and alert,therefore recieving head blows is minimized somewhat. fighting right after body conditioning when one is tired & slugish is not advised in hard contact sports.


Today things are different than in the past,even the non profesional athlete wants some type of advantage when they head off to class.so alot of practicioners train on the off days in weightlifting,conditioniing routines,roadwork,plyometrics etc.

Old guys like me are usually sitting around on the off days moping and complaing about the lack of recovery time.


:laugh:


Hector Gomez

Goju Man
2nd June 2003, 02:55
Old guys like me are usually sitting around on the off days moping and complaing about the lack of recovery time.
Recovery? It seems like I never recover anymore!:D

we kick evey day, 20x each leg x 5 kicks. Every class. We also have a tradition that we do 10 crunchies for every person on the floor.
That sounds like a rough one. Performing kicking drills in repetitions is a nice way to get cardio and technical training at the same time. Crunches? ARRRRGGGHHHH!! I hate doing those! It's funny, I love to run and do cardio plenty, but I've always hated ab work. I know they are necessary and do them but they hurt!:D

CEB
3rd June 2003, 15:48
I am kind of surprised by how the poll is running. I guess I kind of figured that my experiences were the experiences of most people and that #1 would have been the runaway winner. Our classes are very structured and conducted in phases. This is something which has carried over from our Goju-Kai roots. We no longer do Goju-kai karate but some habits have remained.

The first phase is a short opening short ceremony where we do some bowing. As Kahuna suggested we even bowed to a couple of pictures of some senior citizens. We bow to sensei and then bow to each other.

The second phase we get up and bow to the instructor who leads our warm-ups after he announced the beginning of Junbi Undo ( This is the part where we do a lot of PT). We always start class with about 20 to 40 minutes of hard physical exercise. Tons of push-ups and variations on the push up and tons of ab work. Well just lots of stuff. I forget the item count judging from the responses so far you would all probably think I was BSing you anyway. At the end of the exercise portion fearless leader would announces the end of Junbi Undo and we bow again. Then on to the third phase of class.

My view was that the strength training is part of Karate and can’t be separated. We never had all the hand injuries that people talk about all the time. I can recall only one case of possible boxers break and that came when two guys went hit each other with seiken tsuki and hit each other in the fist. Maybe it wasn’t even a break but he got this goose egg looking knot on the back of his hand behind the 2 small fingers. He iced it and was out commission for about a week but never got it cast. Must not of been broken I guess but it sure hurt like hell because the man was pretty tough and the impact still made him do a happy dance. But you follow our program and I believe that in a year you are going to have strong hands and strong wrist.

Most the push ups exercises are done on vertical fist arms in close, the same arm position as in hikite (chamber). The only ones that aren’t done one the fist are the ones done on the fingers tips, the back of the wrist push ups ( those suck), and my one of my personal favorites, the 4 count push ups done at a SLOW cadence on the palms with hands out wide (count 1) go all the way down (count 2) half way up ( count 3) rock side to side (count 4) all the way back up. Lots of cool variations on the pushup Maybe its time from a push thread :)

Maybe the emphasis on strength training as an element of karate training is just a Goju thing. Take our Sanchin kata it is one big isometric workout ( with or without the funny breathing). The Sanchin kata pattern is the one kata pattern that I have trouble demonstrating because I forget when I am supposed to turn in the formal form. This is because we work the pattern up and down the gym floor and we don’t turn until sensei calls for mawatte (turn around).

Interesting ideas about doing the technical aspects of class first and the strength training last. I don’t know if I would like that or not but you all make good points. Some I have never heard before. There is something about the fighting through the adversity the leaves of warm and fuzzy feeling in your heart after class is done. Nonetheless I am learnng a lot so far from this thread. Thanks for your participation.

Gambatte Kudasai
Ed Boyd

gmanry
3rd June 2003, 16:13
It has taken me a while to let go of my previous training habits which used to include working to exhaustion every workout, lots of pushups, ab work, endless drills, etc. I too felt "cheated" if I didn't do these things.

I just have to admit that I am making more gains with a more structured workout order. Now, this means that we are in the gym lifting or running at least 4 to 5 times a week but with much shorter workouts.

We are in a new phase right now that involves technical kicking, punching, and throwing on a couple of mornings a week, lifting twice a week (working up to 200 reps on light/moderate weight for connective tissue), running for 20-30 minutes depending on what our previous run was (2-3 times a week), and then regular class workouts two to three times a week where we cover new ground and polish traditional skills. As it is just me and my wife, we can be more flexible about that. We also live about a block and a half from our local Y and the park where we train.

Good thread, by the way.

Probably should be in a new thread, but does anyone have some good exercises for grip strength? Grippers just don't cut it. I am starting suburito exercises and in learning the left hand position on the tsuka, I am noticing some weakness and stiffness (not karate, I know, but lots of cross trainers here).
What I am learning is that being well rested is really, really important. It IS hard to walk away from a workout when you don't feel fully fatigued, but sticking to the training regimen is part of the discipline. My speed is improving, endurance, flexibility, technical ability is going way up on things I used to have a lot of trouble with in the past. It is laying a physical foundation.

I have to admit, we are still figuring out how to implement this type of stuff with students. Beginning students wouldn't be able to do all of this, so we would probably have some conditioning in class to train them and TEACH them about proper sequencing of strength building.

Our next phase in about 6 or 7 weeks will be static contraction training on weights and power/explosiveness training. We will start jumping rope and running, get into some sparring and randori on a gradual basis, and work complex drills on a technical level.

This is turning into a full year training schedule, and it is working. I turned my wife onto Thomas Kurz, and she being a medical professional, ate it up way faster than I could (lots of sports science research). So, she is designing the overall sequences, and I am filling in the specific training drills.

Strength and fitness training is crucial to MA and karate, but I still feel that a minimum amount of time should be placed on it in class, when technical knowledge needs to be shown. This assumes that students are doing a minimum of work to keep up with their fitness, though. We wouldn't expect any but the most dedicated to do what we are doing, but even half of that can produce some good results in beginners and intermediate students.

CEB
3rd June 2003, 19:06
Originally posted by gmanry
...
Strength and fitness training is crucial to MA and karate, but I still feel that a minimum amount of time should be placed on it in class, when technical knowledge needs to be shown. This assumes that students are doing a minimum of work to keep up with their fitness, though. We wouldn't expect any but the most dedicated to do what we are doing, but even half of that can produce some good results in beginners and intermediate students.

I'm not picking on you Mr Manry. Your opinions seem to be in the majority. You were the last one to post so this quote is handy.

This quote is exactly correct about Strength and fitness being crucial to MA. But on the other hand people also believe that minimum time needs to be spent on that in the dojo. Here is where I have some problems, if people are in the dojo 2 to 3 nights a week those that want to put in the outside class time on martial fitness may not be able to be to due to time allocation problems. This doesn't even take in to consideration that most probably wouldn't do the work if they had time to begin with. Combative sports like boxing are nice because if you don't train you just become a punching bag. That seems like a good incentitive in addition to the common sense knowledge that you only get out of something what you put in to it.

A problem I see in karate is that as someone progresses we are expected to awarded credentials on behalf of our style's particular tribe. What do you do with somebody that does very pretty karate and has learned all the technical aspects he is required to but is a wuss. Do you award him a piece of paper saying he has a certain proficieny level even though he maynot be able to punch his way out of a paper bag? I guess we could rationalize it by thinking, yes he does know all the requirements but he just isn't sturdy enough of a lad. Are we doing this kind of student a diservice but by giving he a false sense of confidence. This don't happen with the old ways. If you hang with the program you will get stronger. It is along these lines of thought I guess that we will not award yudansha grade to anyone under the age of 17. Our old dojo that I work out in 2 nights a week has a kids program but we segregate the children and they progess slowly throught the ranks. The 'NBB-17' rule has not been a issue yet but we have good young sankyu that may pose an issue. My class on the other hand, I am not good with children classes so I send them to the other dojo I don't want anyone under 13.

The thing about the rank is that the teacher has to sign off on this professed level of proficiency and this reflects on the dojo and the organization as a whole I believe. If I had a student who reached brown belt but wasn't strong enough to be able to practice his art effectively I would feel responsible as his teacher. The old methods may not be scientifically sound but I still don't see any way around putting in the workout time during class. Switching the order of way things are practiced in the course of the evening, I'll give that some thought. Thanks for listening to my ramblings.

disclaimer: These are just my thoughts and those may change at any time. I don't know much about anything so take it for its worth. Thanks for the conversation.

hector gomez
3rd June 2003, 23:12
I think physical conditioning is very important during class especialy for the practicioners that don't work on their conditioning outside of the class format.

In the older days of training that was simply the way it was.There was no karate without the hard physical conditioning exercises.

Today is a different story.I personaly know practicioners for example that lift weights 3 or 4 times a week along with roadwork,sprints,plyometrics,yoga,pilates,bodyweight,and the list goes on,ofcourse that is not the norm and everyone is not training for the olympics but for these practicioners going to class to work on
conditioninig for 45min is really a waste of time and could be counterproductive for them.

Ofcourse the majority of us fall into the normal group of practicioners that just feel fortunate enough to make it to class.So I must agree that some form of physical conditioning is a must in a class setting were practicioners do not even think about training outside of that class structure.

This is a real interesting topic because with the "evolution" of most training methods comes the scientific advancement to divide seperate phases of training into different workouts for better quality results.


For example,There is a reason why most profesional athletes in almost all sports divide their training into different segments,some do it to allow greater muscle growth from conditioning programs,while others
believe that training the technical part only later in the day enhances that specific skill.some swear that roadwork in the morning only is when pollution is at it's lowest percentage therefore reaping the best benifits.Either way there is no substitute for blood,sweat and tears wether the conditioning workouts are divided from class or not.



Hector Gomez

gmanry
3rd June 2003, 23:27
I definitely agree that many people won't condition outside of class, some can't because of constraints. Many just won't.

A good question then, one I have been considering recently, is how to bring fitness into the class without making it take a huge chunk out of technical development.

I went through 15 years of pretty hardcore TKD training with lots of the PT. Unfortunately, I feel it actually harmed my development (hindsight of course).

So we all agree physical training is very important, and only a fool would say otherwise. Given that I don't necessarily think that pushups and crunches/situps are that great for class time, what are some solutions?

One I used when teaching karate in WA and ID was to require a set amount of pushups and situps/crunches per rank immediately after class before everyone left the dojo. We warmed up with kihon or kata, keeping the skills in the warm-up, moved to applications and self-defense and finished with slow sparring (sticking), kumite, or heavy bag hitting. I felt this maximized the workout from technical to endurance work and left the raw PT outside of class but still made it a requirement.

I also will not teach a regular class longer than 90 minutes. My experience has told me that the extra 30 minutes in a 2hr class is actually counter productive and is the time most likely to incur injury.

CEB
6th June 2003, 21:10
Originally posted by gmanry
...
A good question then, one I have been considering recently, is how to bring fitness into the class without making it take a huge chunk out of technical development. ....


I guess you don't. What good would technical development be anyway with a bunch of limp wrist karate people who couldn't punch hard without hurting themselves. Maybe pushups are technical development?

Our classes always ran from 6:00 til 9:30. Until a couple of years ago with decreased gym access the program has suffered in quality. Now the kiddies play from 6:00 till 6:50 and the Adults train from 7:00 till 8:30 with novice students bowing out at 8:00. The little ones used to come in on a different night but that is no longer possible. It is still the best program I know about in the area but it is now a longer road to get there IMO. In the old days everybody bowed in at the start but we dismissed students through the course of the night according to experience. The end of class was black belts only and somtimes some brown belts and we worked more advanced stuff. Beginning was PT then elementary exercises. As the night progress more advance the technical exercises were. Seemed like a logical system to me.

Now we are a lot more injury conscience. But this is mostly due to the !@# $#@!! lawyers. Oh well.

Have a good weekend I just wanted to see how the poll came out. Pretty nice cross-section of opinions. Thanks for your participation. Time to go train, the chi ishi are in the car.

Gene Williams
6th June 2003, 22:10
The best practice for an activity is the activity itself. Traditional karate techniques, stetching, isometric exercises, and fundamentals build overall strength if they are done properly and consistently. Pushups and situps, makiwara work, and working against each other in partner drills are the main "strengthening" exercises in my class. Classes are tough and wearing, with lots of repetitions of basics and lots and lots of kata, Manny and Hector:p. Our wrists and ankles are plenty strong, but also flexible, and we stress being relaxed and limber. Now, I have had plenty of pretty boys from the gym come in with their beach muscles who, when put in a little pain, wiggled and grimaced all over the place, while my 150 pound little guys stand there while I bend their wrist to their forearm and they won't tap out until I'm afraid I'll break the damn thing. We've had weight lifter types come in who could press me 10 times, but who can't move and can't take the work out. They never stay, never have. I would rather be fast and technically skilled than very strong...of course, if you are both all the better. Look at Royce Gracie...how much can he weigh? I'll take his ability over brute strength all day long. So, endurance, speed, technical skill, and pain tolerance plus the strong spirit that proper training builds are far more important than strength training. I asked my seniors if I should put free weights in the dojo, damn! I was surprised at the negative reaction..."Sensei, you're getting soft. This ain't a gym." I run, hike, and ride a mountain bike outside the dojo. That's enough. Gene

Goju Man
7th June 2003, 00:55
Not all weightlifting is for the bodybuilding physiques. It's all in how you train to get the desired effect. The bodybuilder types aren't training for karate thus their training makes them very bulky. The big bodybuilders don't run for aerobic activity, rather many of them walk on a treadmill. However, take a guy like Bob Sapp. 350lbs of ex football player, started training with Maurice Smith doing kickboxing. He did win a fight and although he got tapped out in Pride, he has come along way. But a guy training for martial arts is not going to train the same way as bodybuilder. Sets, reps, compound exercises vs isolation, olympic lifts vs power lifts, and not to mention the body type: genetic freak, hard gainer, calorically gifted, all these things come into play. Many traditional Okinawa supplementary training devices are crude weight training devices. The training performed has to fit the goals you want to achieve. All the Miletich fighters weight train, including Miletich. However, all having good physiques, (except Tim Sylvia) are not by a long shot bodybuilders.:)

Gene Williams
7th June 2003, 01:03
Good point...we have used some of the old Okinawan strengthening equipment such as chishi and geta and sand jars. Also, we used to thrust into buckets of beans to strengthen our hands. I would still keep weight training outside the dojo, though. Gene
P.S. Do you think it makes that much difference? I don't see Royce or Rickson or Higaonna or Nishiyama getting beat by brute strength, do you? Gene

Goju Man
7th June 2003, 01:17
P.S. Do you think it makes that much difference? I don't see Royce or Rickson or Higaonna or Nishiyama getting beat by brute strength, do you? Gene
It's hard to say. Royce missed getting beat early on by a pony tail. If Kimo doesn't have a pony tail, he beats him. But the thing is this, when all else is equal, a good big man will usually beat a good small man. In events like the UFC and Pride, boxing, wrestling etc, all have weight divisions because of this. Usually, you want to fight at the lightest weight rather than the heaviest weight. Kevin Randlemann has this dilemma. He is not technical enough to be successful with the big boys, and although he is not as technically proficient at the lighter weight, he is soo strong that he makes up for it.

Gene Williams
7th June 2003, 03:37
In the street in a fight for you life, I still think a skilled, well-trained small or average guy will beat a brute who isn't trained and who is relying on mostly strength. Gene

Goju Man
8th June 2003, 02:04
In the street in a fight for you life, I still think a skilled, well-trained small or average guy will beat a brute who isn't trained and who is relying on mostly strength. Gene
I don't know, let me plug it into EXCEL and see.:D
(Glenn, where are you when we need you)

Gene Williams
8th June 2003, 03:30
Glenn could knock the Hell out of the guy with his laptop or calculator, then calculate the angle he would fall at.:D Gene

gmanry
8th June 2003, 03:47
Strength training and martial arts is a complex bag.

First of all, Gene, most impressions of strength training and weight lifting are based on the body building model (as Manny alluded to). However, this is the wrong strength training model for martial artists. Undo training is a good basic theory for strength training but the fact is that it is largely driven by tradition and not good scientifically tested routines. My teacher's teacher beat his head against a rock, so by golly it will work for me...

I agree that a well trained individual can generally beat a larger lesser trained foe. We saw this in the UFC, and continue to see it occassionally.

However, strength training is more than lifting weights. A good strength training routine is so much more comprehensive than anything you can address in the dojo. It is a year round process that starts with a specific type of preparatory training and builds to a much more intensive finale of strength development. Then it starts all over again with variations based on observations from the previous year. Even dedicated athletes tend to go at it haphazardly and achieve only partial results, as is the case in a lot of martial arts training.

If you ignore fitness training as a martial artist or simply leave it to pushups and situps, then you are short changing your training. I am still learning about this area of sports training, but I now know that it has to be comprehensive to get the most out of it. Once you lay the basics down in the first year, maintenance becomes easier if you don't want to repeat the full cycle.

Now, I will turn your assessment on its head, Gene. A well trained athlete with a little bit of technique will defeat the MA expert who is not fit. We see this all the time, highly trained athletic minds and bodies can jump from skill to skill much more easily than those who are not as well conditioned. A basic and comprehensive level of fitness is so important to martial arts.

gmanry
8th June 2003, 03:55
Just for the record guys, I will be in the gym at 5:00am everday next week (except Saturday and Sunday Y opens later), and then MA training at night two to three other nights and then another workout in the park on Saturday or Sunday. Where will you guys be? :p

Just checking....

wendy ongaro
8th June 2003, 04:08
Speed Gene... don't forget speed. Glenn will also calculate the speed at which the opponent will hit the floor, and the force with which he will hit, and how long he will be unconscious.

I for one, do not like getting hit by Glenn be it open handed or with any various sundry items...focus mits, laptops, calculators, boken. It hurts...alot.

Gene Williams
8th June 2003, 12:00
Hi Glenn, I believe that strength training has a place, too, it just isn't in the dojo...unless it is a function of martial arts activities and techniques. I guess I am just a purist. In my personal training outside the dojo, I have always focused on jogging (4 miles x 3 a week @ < 9min. miles, biking (lots of hills, and light weights at home x 3 wk. I think endurance and overall physical conditioning are better served that way. Plus, I focus a lot on kata and its applications in my own training, and that fits my training methods better. Now, about all this analysis:D I used to spend some time doing that, but I found that it really wasn't that helpful. Even in class, I found it detracted from training time and slowed the pace of the class too much. Now, technical focus in teaching is a different matter, and I have been called a perfectionist by some students and a @$%&***@ by others:D But, I see a difference in that and analysing "why" things work and blueprinting things like distance, angles, etc. The Japanese and Okinawans were never so concerned about "why" things work as to "that" they worked. After 33 years of trying it all, I understand why that is. I have had 2 Okinawan instructors and one Japanese and thery were all "perfectionists" technically, but none spent any time analysing why things worked. But, it is fun to kid you about it, anyway. Of course, in Wyoming, where an enraged grizzly may come charging at you out of the local Wal-Mart or something, maybe you need as much brute strength as you can get:D Gene

wendy ongaro
8th June 2003, 14:30
the real threat in wyoming...redneck stumbling out of Absoraka Liquor and Sport (read GUNS)...or coming out the drivethru liquor store at 90 MPH in his Ford 350...

Seriously. Being Glenn's training partner, as well as his spouse, I can vouch for the fact that he leaves the calculations of various trajectories, geometry, differential equations, etc., on the posting boards. We do look at angles of attack and defense alot, but we study Budo taijutsu, and that's par for the course. How you enter or exit dictates what happens next because the henka is not set in stone, the way it was for our karate training.

In terms of training regimens, what your doing sounds pretty equivalent to what we're doing. Except instead of biking, I play polo on horseback and hike during the summer, and crosscountry ski in the winter, and we do various strength regimens depending on where we our in our training cycle. I can't wait until the weather improves so I can start hiking in the mountains again...



:)

gmanry
8th June 2003, 17:11
I agree, Gene, strength training largely has to be a function outside of the dojo, especially if you want good results. I don't think that every class session has to be a good workout for those involved, though. That is just my personal philosophy. Some classes I keep light and purely technical. Others we might do a lot of fast paced two person drills to get the blood going. We do a lot of different types of ukemi (not just taking judo falls), which is a great overall body conditioner.

A problem we do have right now is that we train in a park. We had some dojo space, but the atmosphere was "weird." So, we abandoned that plan. Needless to say no heavy bag or striking posts anymore. We do have mits and pads, and we hit each other quite a bit to a point.

I think that a lot of MA dojo have the problem of filling class time when they don't have much to teach. This is what I object to most. If an instructor can't fill an hour and a half with actual martial arts teaching without resorting to a large amount of canned line drills or lots of PT, then the instructor needs to evaluate his or her own training. Not saying this is a problem with anyone here, from what I can tell.

So that is my philosophy on the issue. We have lots of shorter intensive strength training sessions during the week and a few hour and a half sessions for MA, plus I add in a 3 hour session at the park for myself to go over old karate kata, bo work, suburito drills, advanced ukemi drills, and just train by myself. This is a pretty draining session. In fact, that is what I am doing today. :cool:

Goju Man
8th June 2003, 21:54
Now, I will turn your assessment on its head, Gene. A well trained athlete with a little bit of technique will defeat the MA expert who is not fit. We see this all the time, highly trained athletic minds and bodies can jump from skill to skill much more easily than those who are not as well conditioned. A basic and comprehensive level of fitness is so important to martial arts.
Glenn, I like to kid you about that, and I'm glad I'm not the only one with a sense of humor. That statement is very powerful and true. Royce Gracies' scariest moment came at the hands of a much lessor trained opponent with very superior strength. Even though he won the match, you'd never know it being he had to literally be carried off. Kimo was ready to run a hundred yard dash. Technical training is very important, but there are many highly obese practitioners of martial arts thinking their "secrets" will get them past a highly developed athlete. It probably wont. That's why in most fighting sports, technical skill is only half the battle, the other half is physical conditioning. I've had many years of kickboxing under my belt, and with all the things I know, when I've been in the ring at less that great shape, my body doesn't respond as fast as my brain would like. Conditioning is very important.

Gene Williams
8th June 2003, 22:21
Yep. I always worry about my friends in the arts who have pretty much quit working out but fool themselves by saying their one powerful punch or kick will end the fight. It just doesn't happen that way unless you are lucky. Besides, they are a heart attack waiting to happen. Gene

gmanry
9th June 2003, 01:27
But they get to enjoy pizza a lot more than we do? Is it worth it for us, I mean.....PIZZA!!!

Actually, this last week has been really bad. I am trying to save my organization from the pooper (thanks to the previous director). I have been to McD's once, Quiznos, and had pizza on Friday night. Stress, stress, stress....

Did workout in the park for 3 hours today, run tomorrow, lifted yesterday, not all bad.

Some big fat guys are dangerous, but they can't go for very long.

Kimo was just scary (and funny too, but mostly scary). I think the Gracie hype machine took a turn just about then. However, he went in with his standard plan, stuck to it, and that is what hurt him. He had no other strategy. Of course, Kimo is a huge fanatical freak who carries a lifesized crucifix around on his back. I am not sure what strategy to use against him...let me get my laptop...

Goju Man
9th June 2003, 12:52
I am not sure what strategy to use against him...let me get my laptop...
The deadly mouse waza!:D (Squared.)

Bustillo, A.
9th June 2003, 14:03
Originally posted by wendy ongaro
I can vouch for the fact that he (Glenn M.) leaves the calculations of various trajectories, geometry, differential equations, etc., on the posting boards.

:)


Mathemmatical equations...on a board...in the dojo?
Did you mean this literally?
(Everyone required to bow to the calculations before every class.)


I had an anatomy chart.--no bowing required.

hector gomez
9th June 2003, 15:32
There is no absolutles.I think both of these types of conditioning methods have produced excellent practicioners and champions.


I think Glenn stated that the martial arts and strength training is a complex bag.....AMEN to that brother,also Gene remarks on the big bodybuilder type that doesn't last long is a classic.


The science of Stength & conditioning is always improving and just keeping up with the latest proven methods is a task upon itself.Just like the technical aspect of fighting must evolve and change so must the training methods.

I have have seen great Strikers & Grapplers swear by only doing bodyweight exercises for strength&condidtioning and have great sucess with it but as Gojuman says todays weighttraining advocates in the martial arts do train with more fight specific methods in mind and is clearly worth looking into.


IT'S ALL GOOD


Hector Gomez

gmanry
9th June 2003, 17:50
Yes, Hector, we have a Dell Insprion notebook on the north wall of the dojo. Before every class we get into seiza, intone the sacred words "Hit any key" and clap in binary code.

We then bow to each other and begin the kihon keyboard drills. :D

This week we are exploring the use of mice in hojojutsu. Next week will be the examination of floppy disks as shuriken and CDs as metsubishi. ;)

Goju Man
9th June 2003, 21:23
This week we are exploring the use of mice in hojojutsu. Next week will be the examination of floppy disks as shuriken and CDs as metsubishi.
Damn, I feel like it's back in the seventies and Samurai Sunday is on. :D

CEB
12th June 2003, 19:11
I was looking for something I have somewhere on my drive. I didn't find it but I found this instead. Here is a piece of the doc. I don't know where it came from but it does begin with the phase feel free to distribute. I could post the whole thing if you are interested but it is fairly long. I especially like the point concerning the body awareness the is developed from bodyweigh exercises.


Let's move on to the bodyweight vs. free weights debate. Bodyweight exercises are superior for wrestling and other grappling and martial arts, gymnastics, and for those who want to join the armed forces. Weight training is superior for brute strength, football, lifting competitions, and many of the sports. However, when training for other sports, free weights should be combined with sprints, some bodyweight exercises, as well as sport specific drills.

Why are bodyweight exercises superior for grappling, combat, and gymnastics? For several reasons. First of all, in each of those activities one needs the ability to use a muscle group over and over again at high levels - that is, muscular endurance, which is developed very well by bodyweight exercises like squats, push-ups, sit-ups, etc. Second, each of those events requires body awareness.

I define body awareness literally as being aware of every part of your body at any given point in time in any given position. The problem with weight lifting exercises, even the good ones like snatches, cleans, jerks, or bent pressing, is that you use "weight awareness" - that is, you have to be aware of where the weight is at all times more than where your body is. As long as the weight is lifted and caught in the correct position(s), the body will naturally follow suit (or else the lift fails).

However, bodyweight exercises take the weights out of the equation. To successfully do such challenging exercises as handstand push-ups, one-legged squats, headstands, and bridges, you have to be focusing on every part of your body. That is why they are so good for wrestling, and other combat sports where your body is in many different positions during a match, and to be able to successfully recover and counter attack, you must have full awareness of where each part of your body is at all times. Similarly, in gymnastics, where you flip and end up in many different positions, body awareness is crucial.

Not all bodyweight exercises develop body awareness equally. Some of the ones I mentioned above such as handstand push-ups and bridging do a very good job, but regular push-ups on the other hand develop it to a lesser extent. The more a bodyweight exercise requires agility and balance, the more body awareness it develops.

Bodyweight exercises are also good for people always on the road, those without money to purchase weights, and those with very little time, as a set of push-ups or squats can be squeezed in at odd moments during the day.

So what are weights good for? Many things! Nothing packs muscle on a skinny frame like heavy, intense lifting. Nothing is better for increasing brute strength and power - the kind used to lift a heavy box, open a jar that's stuck, tackle a 210 pound running back running at the speed of light, smash a homerun over the Green Monster at Fenway Park, or throw the discus record distances. However, you should choose useful exercises that work many muscles at the same time, exercises such as cleans, snatches, jerks, presses, squats, and deadlifts, using barbells, dumbbells, or sandbags.

CEB
12th June 2003, 19:23
Originally by Miyagi Chojun, 1936

8. The teaching method of karate
As each person has his or her distinctive character, the muscle development is different depending on his or her muscle use. Therefore, at first, we do Jumbi Undo (Preparatory Exercise) to develop our muscles so that we can practice karate exercises easier, and then Kihon (Fundamental Kata), Hojo Undo (Supplementary Exercise) and Kaishu Kata and Kumite Training. We teach karate in this way.

Each outline is as follows.
1. Preparatory Exercise
We exercise each muscle of our body in order to enhance its flexibility, strength and endurance, and then we practice the fundamental Kata, namely Sanchin, Tensho and Naifanchi. We do again this preparatory exercise after practice of Kata to relax our muscles. And we take a breathing exercise and take a rest quietly.
2. Fundamental Kata
Sanchin, Tensho and Naifanchi are the fundamental Kata. Through practicing them, we can take a correct posture. We can inhale and exhale correctly. We can adjust increasing or decreasing our power harmoniously. We can develop a powerful physique and a strong will of warrior.
3. Supplementary Exercise
This exercise enable us to learn and perform Kaishu Kata well. We exercise each part of our body with a particular movement. We also practice with various equipments to enhance our outer whole strength and particular part strength.
4. Kaishu Kata (Kata except Fundamental Kata)
Nowadays we have about twenty or thirty kinds of Kata, and their names are various depending on their creators. Kata has techniques of defense and offense that are connected appropriately. It has various directions of the movements and it is something like gymnastics. We should perform Kata by using power of mind and body in accordance with its technical purpose so that we can learn the principle of untying and tying.
5.Kumite Training
We untie Kaishu Kata which we already learned, and we study techniques of defense and offense in Kaishu Kata. Understanding its technical purpose, we practice the techniques of attack and defense with fighting spirit like a real situation.

Gene Williams
12th June 2003, 19:36
Guys, Help me out here...I can't get past the use of mice in hojojutsu and floppy discs as shuriken. Yeah, it sounds like the '70's alright...after smoking the rope used in hojojutsu. I assume they are talking about computer mice and not the furry kind but, hey, I'm for anything between two consenting mammals:D Gene

hector gomez
12th June 2003, 21:33
I love traditional bodyweight exercises.


:karatekid

Hector Gomez

gmanry
12th June 2003, 21:48
Hey, with furry animals you can't forget duct-tape! :eek:

Seriously, I think that the type of lifting is very important for consideration of weight training. Most weightlifting routines are based on a bodybuilding model to build hypertrophy of the muscle fibers. This is only one model.

Other types of weight training to consider are:

Very high rep with low-moderate weight (working up to 200 reps at a time). In the chest press I use 50lbs. and I am up to about 70-80 reps at this time. This conditions the connective tissue and helps in muscle fiber recruitment. It addresses the endurance problem and prepares the foundation for greater pure strength training later.

Static contraction training (John Little): this is isometrics with progressive weight. This continues the muscle fiber recruitment process and also begins pure strength training. For example, I would start with 225lbs to 250lbs. on bench press and hold it 2-3 inches under full extension for 15 seconds and work up to 30-45 seconds. Then increase the weight and start the process over.

Pure strength building: Heavy weight for no more than 6-8 reps with maximum explosiveness in the lift. This is the Hulk out program, only to be done after the other phases are completed 6-10 weeks on the other phases. This is where you get to see what your maxes are, and this is what you are training for in this phase. Endurance is maintained through other workouts like running and bag work.

Then you go back to a general fitness cardio routine and start the process again. You also have to make sure that you are getting a lot of rest. That is the problem with most MA's they don't rest enough, and that promotes repetitive injury, stress fractures, fatigue, and even emotional imbalance.

I do supplement my work with some body weight exercises, dips, gymnast pikes on the dip bars (no, I can't do a full pike yet :D ), handstands, etc.

For raw beginners I think body weight exercises are good, pilates floor work can be really good, or a basic yoga class in addition to MA to teach that body awareness. We will be introducing our beginners to a lot of these concepts when we get our classes organized.

By changing how and why you lift the weight, you keep from getting bored, and you give your body an adaptive workout. If you are always lifting the same way, you will plateau and stop seeing progress after a while, get frustrated and quit.

This is all based on Thomas Kurz's work and has been tested in control group based experiments. This stuff was the bread and butter of Eastern block teams before the fall of the Soviet Empire. I got turned on to his stuff for flexibility reasons, and then Wendy got into it for the rest of his sports training ideas. So far, we are getting good steady results.

Goju Man
12th June 2003, 23:06
Ed, you can actually up the bodyweight intensity by adding weighted vests, weighted belts or the like once you reps become too high. Dips, pull ups and chins are great bodyweight exercises that can have weight added to. You can hold a dumbell with your feet for chins/pull ups, the same for dips. Jimmy Pedro, for example is said to do clean and jerks with weights only. These build explosiveness, and help both the pull and push for grapplers.

wendy ongaro
13th June 2003, 00:13
"...everybody was kung fu fightin'...ya!ya!...with moves like lightning...ya! hiya!"

Seriously,

Thomas Kurz talks about relative v.s. absolute strength. Competitive weightlifters (not bodybuilders...totally different) need to have absolute strength- i.e. they have to lift a sum total amount of weight regardless of their own mass. Martial artists (and gymnasts, etc.) need relative strength -i.e. strength/divided by mass. The greater amount of mass relative to strength results in a greater detriment to that total relative strength because a martial artist has to move that mass with that strength over a variety of settings (rolls, throws, footwork, punching, matwork). So in weight lifting techniques, it is often important for martial artists to lean away from gross muscle hypertrophy, and concentrate more on explosive strength(high weight, low rep) or endurance strength (low weight, very high rep) v.s. hypertrophy (medium to medium high weight, moderate sets, multiple sets).

Finally, you think fuzzy mice is weird, Gene, don't even bring up my other life...the equestrian thing...

19th June 2003, 23:54
My classes run for 1 1/2 hours.

Body strength exercises are an intrigal part of my classes. In addition to handstand push up, we focus on the Royal Court i.e. Hindu push up, Hindu squat and back bridge. Staff curls and windlass are also essential training tools for us.

For personal time I use tubing for various exercises in addition to dumbells for things such as French curls.

:smilejapa

CEB
23rd June 2003, 02:31
I have been on hiatus from the gym. I had some health problems that just totally sapped my energy levels but I am feeling really good right now and I am going to restart my noon hour workouts.

I am putting together a new program. I want to do a free weight workout 3 days a week. I do not want to need a spotter. I am wondering what I would be losing if anything by replacing the barbell portions of my program with dumbell exercises. For all of my barbell exercises I can find a dumbell subsitute that works the same groups.

Anybody know of a decent discussion forum for weight lifting?

I am thinking a beginning a new activity at age where most people have retired from it. The wife thinks I've flipped she maybe right. Regardless, I need to increase my upper body strength and mass. I am thinking of working upper body M-W-F and concentrating on treadmill and stairs on T-H.

I know that muscle doesn't grow when being trained only when resting. Would heavybag work on the resting days have a negetive impact on my progress.

Thanks for your support.

gmanry
23rd June 2003, 02:54
Ed,

Sorry, don't know a good board for weight lifting. However, I can speak to dumbbell vs. barbell.

With the dumbbells you will get greater work on stabilizers, which for MA is fantastic. Reaching peak weight or max weight strength can be more difficult with dumbbells, however.

Because of a shoulder injury I am finally addressing, I can't bench much. So I use biangular machines. These allow me to do greater weight in a safer environment. I also use dumbbells for stabilizers on occasion.

In terms of the MWF-TTh and bag routine, I would say it depends on the type of workout you are doing with the weights. If you are working to fatigue (low/moderate weight high rep sets), then the bagwork may be too much unless you break it into a lighter technical workout (75% max) and then maybe a heavy bag workout on the weekend (up to 90% with some full flurries), to give you enough rest. You will have to experiment with it. I would recommend this if you are returning to the gym and workouts from a long break. You might even want to start with calisthenics for about 3 weeks and shadow boxing/sparring.

If you are doing heavy weight lower rep (not good, IMO, when returning to the gym from a longer break) then the bag workouts may not be too much, but you should see how your fatigue levels are.

How old are you? If you don't mind me asking. I am 33 and I find there is little I can't do that I could do when I was 20. As long as I approach it in an intelligent fashion.

CEB
23rd June 2003, 15:22
I'm 39 and holding.

My intention is to go right into weight training. I've been out of the gym but never out of the dojo. I'm in a dojo 5 nights a week. T and TH nights is my Goju Dojo and there is plenty of calisthenics happening there. M and W I visit another dojo that doesn't condition nearly as much but they do a decent warm-up. I may be pulling out of M and W workouts to take up a new activity. Friday I work with a koryu group I kind of helped get started. That is not much workout but tate hiza is a real pain sometimes and kumitachi gets a little hairy sometimes. I play kendo on Sunday afternnons if I'm avaiable and not too wiped out from gigging.

The bag training I've mostly done is just hitting for power. Last year I recieved some very good guidance on bag training from our Florida friends. Now I have a few other approaches I throw into the mix. I got some funny looks one day when I took the thing down and laid it on the floor and start working the thing. I believe I can think Mr. Bustillo for that one, maybe it was Manny. Thanks again guys.

The hard part for me is going to be decide on what weight to decide to start with on my reps. My plan will be based on pyrimiding. I need to determine what the max weight at which I can doing the exercise correctly then for each exercise I do either 3 of 4 sets depending on the exercise.

I think this is where what I will shoot for at the start. I'll know more in a couple days. I'm actually going to take a calculator into the gym. I don't think I'll need MS Excel.

Set 1 - 12 reps (55% of max)
Set 2 - 10 reps (60% of max)
Set 3 - 10 reps (60% of max)
Set 4 - 8 reps (65% of max)

I'm going to have to play it by ear at first. Time will be a factor because I'm going to have to do a post lift stretching routine or I'll start getting tight. This has happened in the past when I tried to lift. I might have to cut back on the # exercises. This whole thing is a guess in process.

Thanks.

gmanry
23rd June 2003, 17:15
That pyramid looks good for returning to weight training, not too much or too little. When you get comfortable you might want to add in a 5th set of 6 at 75%. Then when you can do all that comfortably, you can start to shift the pyramid up.

Another good system is the Body for Life system, but it can be a handful with all those other activities, it was for us. It is well laid out and will get you strong in a short period of time (12 weeks). I wouldn't do it as a normal routine, but as a "jumpstart" back into weight training. It is pyramid based, but it also crosses over many other weight lifting methods making it a good all around begining course.

I am sure our Florida friends hooked you up on some good bag routines. One thing I try to remember is to never hit the bag at more than %80 power. Trying to hit harder just ruins form, because it is hard to consciously apply 100% power without muscling it. In real SD adrenaline and urgency will take care of the remaining 20%. So that is my .02 on bag training, for what it is worth.

Good luck, take it slow at first, before you know it you will see results for your training goals.

CEB
23rd June 2003, 19:47
Well it went OK I guess. It took too long. I spent quite a bit of time trying to zero in on appropiate training weights. I would pick a easy comfortable weight and once I reached the 3rd or 4th set of the pyrimid I couldn't finish the set but I think I pretty much have a plan. Forward Lunges didn't seem to do much for me so I am replacing them with the seated leg press. I cut shrugs from the workout. My traps are way too big in proportion to the rest of my body anyway. It seems to be a common trait in Goju Ryu. It must be Sanchin I guess. I may add wrist curls in place of shrugs. Here is the lifting exercises I am starting out with.

Flat dumbell press (Bench press with dumbells)
Alternating dumbell curls (may switch to a concentrated curl exercise later time is my issue here)
Lying supine two arm tricep extension
single arm rows - right
single arm rows - left
Seated Palms out 2 hand dumbell press (basically Military press with dumbells)
seated leg press
Abdominal machine

Arms feel a little shaky right now.

gmanry
23rd June 2003, 21:47
Your first workout always is hit or miss, in my experience, for exactly the reasons you specified. In fact, I usually write off the first week in weight training just to get the routine down.

Wow, I find lunges to be a killer, and I have really well developed hamstrings and adductors. Just goes to show you that experimentation by the individual is necessary.

Have you tried stepping back into your lunges? That is usually how I do my lunges, and you may find them to be a challenge. I too found forward lunges to not be too difficult, all that zenkutsu dachi. Stepping back sucks!!!! Just a suggestion though.

I can get a good substitute with leg press. In fact with the high rep work I am doing, I prefer it for safety reasons. At about rep #55 stabilizers can get a little touchy and there is no reason to risk blowing something just for ego's sake.

I always caution people to take it really easy getting back into the weights, you will make up ground later. Better to go lighter at first. If you have trouble driving afterwards because your arms are so fried, you may have gone to hard (my basic test). If you are really sore the next day, then you went to hard. Take at least two days off before lifting or wait until the soreness goes away. We all like to push ourselves, but in the beginning it is not a good idea.

The big thing is progress towards your goal over the long haul.

CEB
24th June 2003, 16:05
A a very large thanks to everybody that is contacting me off-list regarding weight training. I mean that. It is very appreciated. I will be using more barbells to help even out things due to my right side being stronger than my left. I think will be a big help.

I got a book this weekend with the Barnes and Noble gift card I got for my birthday called 'Getting Stronger' by Bill Pearl. Just lifting the book will make me stronger. Its a pretty big book. A lot of info. Almost 500 8.5"x11" pages Looks like a very good book to me but I'm just a karate and Judo guy. I don't know anything about weightlifting. Just started reading the book last night.

The book has strength training routines for 21 specific sports that are written by professional trainers from the specific sports. Many people with high qualifacations contributed to book. There are 77 one page routines you can copy and take with to the gym. Nice sections on injury rehabilitation and nutrition. There are 350 individual exercises detailed in the book.

gmanry
24th June 2003, 17:48
I will have to check that out. Thanks for sharing.

CEB
30th June 2003, 20:19
Since having the sweets taken out of my diet I have been losing weight. My weight loss has been slow constant drop. My weight loss rate has slowed since I started lifting weights but my weight is still going down. It wouldn’t hurt me to lose another 10 pounds, which would put me at 208. As an adult martial artist I weighed under 200 one time, but that was after being sick. 208-215 has always been a good weight for me. My problem is I will always be a heavyweight. But I’m a runt for a heavyweight. So right now I want to get bigger, but in a good way.

I bought a Whey Protein supplement but I haven’t started using it yet. I don’t know if I should wait until I’m at 208 to start using it or if I should start using it now?

From what I am gathering from my readings the optimum time to take this stuff is right before bed and right when you wake up because of the protein depletion that occurs at night time. And you should take it after the finish of a hard lifting routine. That is 3 times a day. At $9.00 for 12 servings this is going to add up. I’m thinking about moving my lifting to at nighttime before bed when I get home from the dojo instead of during my noon hour break. I’ll continue to still do treadmill, stationary bike, inclined sit-ups and the stair master machine during noon hour just no lifting. Then I’ll take the Whey supplement twice a day. Should I take the supplement just on the evening and mornings following my lifting or should I use it every day?

Thanks guys

Gene Williams
30th June 2003, 20:47
Little Ed Muffet sat on his tuffet
Eating his curds and whey
Along came a spider and sat down beside him
And he hastily dispatched it with fumikomi geri:D

hector gomez
30th June 2003, 21:50
Whey to go Ed!

gmanry
30th June 2003, 21:54
Ah,

You have jumped on one of the most heatedly debated subjects in weight training, PROTEIN...:eek:

Personally, I think that too much is made of protein in most of the weight training literature. As it is commercially driven, that figures.

Eggs really are the best source of quick protein that I know of. They are cheap, easy to prepare ahead of time (hardboiling), and the medical literature more and more is finding that they are perhaps one of the most perfect food sources. Given that they create life, that makes sense to me, lots o' energy in those little things.

The Tuna thread is of course completely applicable here. Also, I really like White Wave Soy Milk.

I think the protein stuff is overblown. We do use Balance bars for quick in between meal snacks to prepare for our training, but we get those at a cut rate at Wallie World. They are 40-30-30 bars.

CEB
30th June 2003, 22:02
Originally posted by gmanry
Ah,

...
I think the protein stuff is overblown. ...

It sounds safer than HGH.

Goju Man
1st July 2003, 01:01
Ed, Bill pearls' book is a good one from what I've heard. You should have plenty of info. and routines for whatever your goals are. When the spider shows up, EAT IT! :D


Personally, I think that too much is made of protein in most of the weight training literature. As it is commercially driven, that figures.
Glenn, I've actually seen the difference protein and nutrition make, both in my own training and in others. There was this guy at the gym maybe ten years ago or so, was in the gym EVERYDAY without fail, trained hard, you name it. He had minimal gains in strength and size. We started chating one day while we trained, when I asked him what his protein intake was, he was barely getting enough without the training. I told him him needed a bit more, ( 1gm for every lb ), three months later, viola, he added twenty pounds to his bench and was making good gains. When you are training heavy for strength, you gotta have it. As for it being commercially driven, necessety is the mother of invention.:)

CEB
2nd July 2003, 18:02
This would make a nice addition to my Garage Gym, but the piggy bank is a little low and I think the price will continue to rise.

Ed wants this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3615712864&category=15281&rd=1)

gmanry
2nd July 2003, 18:08
Manny,

No doubt, protein intake is important. My argument is that the source of the protein doesn't have to be fancy and can be accomplished by eating things like eggs and what not.

Like vitamins, there is only so much you can take in before your body just starts dumping it. A visit with a good nutritionalist who is familiar with athletic needs could help determine what one's intake should be.

I too had problems gaining weight and mass when I was younger (funny, not such a problem now...:( ). Protein intake helped a lot.

Most of what is marketed is just that...marketed. You have to be really careful with some of that stuff. A lot of the shakes and things are filler and empty calories, which will add mass alright.

Anyway, protein important...store bought protein not really necessary. That is my story and I am stickin' to it!

Iron Chef
2nd July 2003, 20:04
Originally posted by gmanry
...
No doubt, protein intake is important. My argument is that the source of the protein doesn't have to be fancy and can be accomplished by eating things like eggs and what not.
....

The Iron Chef is totally down with that. There are several good sources of protein. But if you want to get big you need large amounts of protein. Anyone that doesn't believe that I have been told is a pencil neck bookreader who has never built great mass.

But you may not be able to afford the cost of protein supplements. So the Iron Chef sought advice from some of the world's finest Chef's on do it yourself high protein shakes. Note that Chef Tony's recipe though very high in protein calls for the use of raw eggs. I don't advocate consumming raw eggs due to the risk of Salmonella and other types of bacterial exposure. Also Chef Tony's uses protein supplement in his recipe.

Enjoy, Get Big, Get Strong.

Warmest Regards
Iron Chef


The OFFICIAL D/FW Assault Crew Tuna Shake - By Chef Jeff Amason
2 6oz cans Tuna in water(or oil if on Bodyopus Diet)
2 cups water or skim milk
4 large ice cubes

Blend until smooth & creamy. This is a must for any hardcore lifter.


---------------------------------------------------------------------

The Virile Mary Tuna Shake - By Master Chef John Romano
1 can solid white tuna in water,drained
2 1/2 cups V-8 juice
1 tsp extra virgin olive oil (optional)
2 tbsp lemon juice
a dash of a good Habanero pepper sauce

Dump it all in a blender for a few seconds and frappe for a few seconds til smooth. Serve with a stalk of celery and a Shot of Stoli( a good vasodialtor for you bodybuilders.......the powerlifters are going "a vasodi....WHAT")


----------------------------------------------------------------------

HARDCORE TUNA SHAKE - Chef Tony (ain't got no surname)
200gm Tuna in Water (Drained of course)
1+1/4 Pint Semi-Skimmed Milk
2 Large Raw Eggs
2 Medium Sized Bananas
3 Heaped Teaspoons Protein Suppliment (Egg and Milk Whey)

In a blender, one pint mid-morning and one pint mid-afternoon.

Just necked a pint, TONY


----------------------------------------------------------------------

*TUNA SHAKE, BOSTON STYLE!!!* (aka "Tuna Chowder")- Kneller Strikes Again
2 - 7 oz cans of chunk white tuna packed in oil
1 - 16 oz bottle of "V-8" vegetable drink
2 - 1 tsp of WHITE Worcestershire sauce
1/2 clove of garlic
1/4 Sweet Vidalia Onion

Place the contents in a food processor and set to "puree" for 90-120 seconds.
Pour in a large bowl and allow to chill in the refrigerator for 1 hour. Garnish with a sprig of parsley.
Add "Oysterette Crackers" for more carbs.

Tah Dah!!! That's it. I actually had a few of these and it is not "that bad".

-BK
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Boston Special - By Bruce " this guy ain't no chef" Kneller
"In a large vat mix.. 4 cans of tuna packed in oil(no need to take the tuna out of the can, just think of the extra chromium you get this way) , 1 large bottle of Jose Cuervo "Tres Generaciones" or if you prefer, use Mezcal ,and one 1/2 gallon of Heavy Cream. Mix by hand and serve in a dirty ashtray. Yummy !!! If you've got the seeds.......-BK--"

Gene Williams
2nd July 2003, 20:58
TUNA ENEMA

2 cans of tuna in oil:D
2 c. olive oil
2 tbsp Texas Pete's Hot Sauce
1 c. blackberry wine
1 qt. hot water

Blend all ingredients until liquid
Place in enema bag
Put recipient in knee chest position
Serve enema in triple H form (high, hot, and a helluva lot)
Bon apetit! :moon:

gmanry
2nd July 2003, 21:00
Bassomatic:

It slices, it dices, it circum sizes...

mmmm...that's good bass...

SNL (old crew)
----------------------------------------------------------

Something that we have found to be a great thing is Albertson's brand egg substitute, all egg whites and safe to drink as is, relatively cheap too.

1/4 or more cup egg substitute
1 cup lowfat yogurt
Add skim milk or soy milk, at least 1/4 cup (higher fat though)
You can add anything for flavor, fruit, a little chocolate syrup (not too much though ;) ), etc.

Blend, drink...easy breakfast in the morning on the run, lowfat, good protein to start the day, and it is easy to digest.

Iron Chef
2nd July 2003, 21:31
Originally posted by Gene Williams
TUNA ENEMA

2 cans of tuna in oil:D
2 c. olive oil
2 tbsp Texas Pete's Hot Sauce
1 c. blackberry wine
1 qt. hot water

Blend all ingredients until liquid
Place in enema bag
Put recipient in knee chest position
Serve enema in triple H form (high, hot, and a helluva lot)
Bon apetit! :moon:

You should probably stick to the topic since this is a training related thread. The digestion process takes place in the small intestines so normally I would point out that your suggestion is useless. But in your case I believe you could probably use a good enema. :)

Gene Williams
2nd July 2003, 21:48
:D Never been into that, however there are several people who visit this thread that would greatly benefit from such a concoction. They would probably weigh about a hundred pounds less and be truly lean and mean. Since when does anyone stay on topic in these forums for very long, anyway:p

Goju Man
2nd July 2003, 22:04
1 c. blackberry wine

What's the wine for??:eek:

Glenn, the problem is this: If you weigh 220lbs, you're looking at about 200gms of protein, not to mention your carbs. That's a hell of lot to eat, I know because that was my intake while lifting heavy. I love to eat but it's just too much. The shakes come in real handy that way, and I've learned many different ways to vary it. I have had the best results with whey protein as opposed to milk, egg or vegetable proteins. Remember, this is for muscle building and heavy training, for people training more relative strength the need is less. They would need a little more carbs than protein anyhow.

Gene Williams
2nd July 2003, 22:07
Manny, I just thought some of the guys would enjoy wine with their meal.:D

Goju Man
2nd July 2003, 22:13
Yeah, but the cheese is hard to chew that way.:laugh:

Gene Williams
2nd July 2003, 22:18
Well Manny, You could always insert the nozzle of a can of cheese whiz:)

Goju Man
2nd July 2003, 22:20
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Gene Williams
2nd July 2003, 22:23
I would like to take a moment and apologize to Ed for getting so far off topic. We could have a moment of silence, but I'm laughing so hard I don't think it is possible. Anyway, Redi Whip for dessert, anyone?:D

Gene Williams
2nd July 2003, 22:26
By the way, there is a thread on training music...bet my recipe would produce some mellow tones:cool:

Goju Man
2nd July 2003, 23:41
I think that would resemble a mud slide.:D

CEB
7th July 2003, 19:03
Had a black belt tell me in the locker room last week. "You have been fast all these years (not true, I am old and slow) why do you want to lift weights and make yourself slow? I don't feel any slower since I've started lifting for strength and size. Is there any basis for his statement?

Gene Williams
7th July 2003, 19:18
Hey Fast Eddie, My students who are weight freaks tell me that if you continue to stretch properly and do kata a lot, the weight lifting is no problem. I personally have not run into a lot of heavy weight lifters who are as limber as karate practitioners, but then I view a pretty small slice of the world. Most of the weight lifters I know who do nothing but that have pretty low flexibility, but maybe they don't stretch enough.Then there is all that stuff about slow twitch and fast twitch muscles, which are pretty much genetically determined but can be trained to some extent. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just get your ass back to the dojo and do your kata:D Gene

CEB
7th July 2003, 19:26
Originally posted by Gene Williams
...Just get your ass back to the dojo and do your kata:D Gene

I'vr actually been doing more solo kata than normal. But I'm sort of doing a whole new set of forms. Kind of getting a different view on the kata of the ryu.

Gene Williams
7th July 2003, 19:38
I hope these aren't "forms" you made up:mad: Gene

CEB
7th July 2003, 20:04
Originally posted by Gene Williams
I hope these aren't "forms" you made up:mad: Gene
No, there is a concept in some Okinawa circles that refer to ‘Honto’ Kata. The idea is basically that additional postures are added to the form to balance it out. But for analysis purposes you should look at the ‘Honto’ form whch has the repeating postures removed. What you get is a form which makes a lot more sense. I know you do Goju Suparunpei. I don’t like to discuss Suparunpei because, well I don’t like to refer to it as a holy form but it is very important to us. The Honto version of Suparunpei makes a perfect example. You know the formal pattern has all of these repeating techniques that are done to the four winds. I would look at this thing and go what the hell is this all about. The forest sort of hides within the trees. Once you unbalance the form and remove the extraneous postures then it looks more like a fight. The sabaki and directions change to something that makes a lot more sense too me. This is especially important for people who do not practice 2 man versions of the kata. I would feel more comfortable in taking any further discussion about this offline. I don’t want to be a bad influence on some of the readers who are still trying to learn Geka Sai.

But then again, not many people practice kata in a way that I believe is very beneficial to the understanding of their fighting methods anyway. They may as well make up their own forms. I don’t think they will be any worse off than the bulk of those who going religiously go through the orthodox patterns without question.

All you young people don’t pay any attention to CEB. He don’t know anything he is just an old Judo player.

Gene Williams
7th July 2003, 20:17
I am familiar with the Honto concept, and we also do that type of training. I like to do it with the Pinan starting with the brown belts. With seniors any kata is fine. Yes, Suparimpei is our last kata taught. We can discuss it off line. Here is a training method I use for myself. I wouldn't encourage mudansha to use it, maybe not even shodan. They still need to be breaking the kata down and doing countless reps of them. This is only meaningful to someone who really pursues kata training seriously long term. At least one of my workouts each week is this: go to the dojo, dress out, clean the dojo and the Shinza, lock the door, then do preliminary stretching. Light the incense and do a formal opening. Then, sit seiza for a little while. Now, do your kata, all of them, once each. No stopping to correct little stuff, no doing it over, just once, that's all. Do formal close. Go home. The rest of my workouts are the usual makiwara, several repetitions of each kata, bunkai, weapons kata, heavy bag, basics, etc. But, the "reishiki dai" type session has become my most intense and most meaningful. Gene

hector gomez
7th July 2003, 20:27
Gene,

I once took a nice girl to the dojo,dressed out,cleaned the dojo and the Shinza,Locked the door,lit the incense,then I even did prelimanary stretching just like you did but that's were are stories took a different path,you proceeded to do suparimpei,while I skipped that part as usual and performed supertrickdaddyempai.

LMAO::cool:

Gene Williams
7th July 2003, 20:38
What fool would give up the chance to run kata for love making with a beautiful girl? I don't understand you, Hector. Why, I want my students to be so dedicated that they would continue running kata in a whole room full of naked girls...of course, I don't have many students...uh oh, here come the guys with the net...:eek: Gene

Goju Man
8th July 2003, 04:00
Why, I want my students to be so dedicated that they would continue running kata in a whole room full of naked girls...
I would, too. That leaves more girls for me.:D

Iron Chef
12th July 2003, 16:23
Another opinion (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20313)

Goju Man
12th July 2003, 16:58
No sweating? OK.:D

Iron Chef
12th July 2003, 17:52
More interesting discussion (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20178) The 2nd post I found rather thought provoking. ;)

Gene Williams
12th July 2003, 18:33
Well, they could always talk you to death, or maybe spit at you and scratch your face all up:D

Goju Man
13th July 2003, 01:34
I kickbox myself to stupidity through hard sparring and head banging to heavy metal sound tracks.
Don't go out of your way dude, you're already more than there.:laugh:

CEB
15th July 2003, 20:00
I'm not getting any bigger. But I'm able to lift more weight.

I have one problem I'm trying to work through right now. On barbell curls I can't can't lift very much weight right now without having a pain on the inside (left side) of my right elbow. I can only curl 50 pounds pain free. I can do dumbbell curls and as long as I keep my palms facing in toward each other no pain. If I turn hands palm up then the elbow hurts. The only thing I know to do at this point is to do barbell reps at 50 pounds and just do higher # of reps until the elbow get built back up. Or perhaps I should layoff completely and do dumbbells palms in for a while? Anybody know about elbow pain? (This is also the same elbow that has calcium deposit floating around on the inside from the time I landed on the gym floor elbow first going for a loose basketball many years ago.)

Thanks.

Goju Man
15th July 2003, 22:38
Ed, if your lifting more weight, something is definitley going good. If you're keeping the cardio up, you haven't noticed because your gaining muscle while loosing fat. The only true way to tell is to have a body fat test done. If you're having pain with the barbell, (straight bar), your arms should be no more than shoulder width, maybe a little less. If that doesn't work, try the curling bar with the inside grip. If you do it on the preacher bench, better still. Many new lifters have problems with curls because this exercise is where you can least compensate with other mucle groups.

CEB
22nd August 2003, 16:34
This aint funny. I haven't been gaining any weight through lifting. I quit lifting about a week before my Ohio trip because I didn't want to risk hurting myself before traveling 500 miles only to train while hurt. Haven't started lifting again yet. Going to start back Saturday morning. Last night I found I've gained a couple of pounds. I'm not too worried though one poop could be a good 2 or 3 pounds.

CEB
24th August 2003, 14:40
I use a short 20 pound barbell for my curls. 50 pounds isn't much weight but any more weight hurts the right elbow. The dumbells let me curl more weight if I keep palms face palms facing inward but I'm thinking I may be able to build up whatever is wrong with this elbow if I work lower weight. Went pretty light yesterday. First day lifting in about 3 weeks. The barbell is easier for me to keep half way decent form also. I quit one week before the Ohio trip then I was in Ohio for a week and last week I was lazy. Maybe my elbow is cured now?

CEB
5th September 2003, 19:52
The below is from a web site I have been reading from and well now I feel kind of bad. We have always used our shins and legs to defend against kick and to strike with. I was taught long time ago to use the old Coke bottles to deaden the nerve. I now have students doing that and also using rolling pins the deaden the nerves in the shins. I don't feel like I've damaged myself but I'm still young, well I'm a lot younger than Gene. Any thoughts?


How do I condition my shins? It hurts so much when I train. How do I make my shins harder?
First, you must realize that a conditioned shin is one with deadened nerves. The shin is already hard and will unlikely get much harder. The key is to deaden the nerves so that you wouldn't feel the pain upon impact. However, you must also realize that you should not damage the shin bone while trying to deaden the nerves. This can be done only by practicing on the Thai pads and bags. The Thai pads and bags are softer than your shin bone while hard enough to damage the nerves on the skin above your shin bone with repeated impact. This process can take a while depending on how hard you train and how frequently you train. You must accept that in the beginning, it will be painful. You've just picked one of the most demanding sports in the world. There will be pain to go with it. This is only the beginning. The first time an opponent lands a hard Thai kick on your legs, you will get a wake up call more painful than shin conditioning. Mentally tell yourself that this is the initiation process. In time your shins will be properly conditioned. There are ointments that may alleviate some of the pain. Use them as needed. But understand that no oitment will make the process painless.

What I don't want to see any of you do is to try and take the shortcut at shin conditioning by using hard objects like wood or bottles. I was shocked to hear that some people were actually told by their trainers to take this route. If your trainer tells you to beat your shins with sticks or roll hard bottles on them, seek another Muay Thai gym. This is what will happen if you take these drastic measures. You will at first feel that your shins are conditioned fast. Why? Your nerves have been deadened fast so that you now feel little pain. But by using an object harder than your shin bone you've just damaged the bone too. Guess what will happen later in life? That's right, you will have to see a doctor for bone problems. This crazy method probably started from the myth that Thai boxers in Thailand kicked trees with their shins. The truth is long ago before the availability of pads and bags, Thai boxers kicked banana trees. The texture of a banana tree is rubbery and is softer than a person's shin. It is not like the wooden oak tree sitting in your backyard. The only thing as hard as or harder than your shin bone that you may one day hit are the shins, knees, and elbows of your opponents. And if you end up hurting your shin bone as a result of kicking into your opponents raised knee, then you may still suffer an injury. Just try to minimize injuries in training and save your luck for the ring. Most importantly, always consult a physician with your concerns. They know best.

gmanry
5th September 2003, 20:06
I have to admit that I too used bottles and what not for awhile, but I rarely encouraged others. I think I agree with that quoted article. Slow and easy is always best. Sitting in seiza on firmer flooring I found also contributed to toughness in my legs (never extremely tough though). I also used a radial tire that I cut and then bolted to a 4X6 sunk into the ground. Moderate powered kicks on that definitely toughened up my shins and insteps.

A friend of mine used to place towels on some concrete capping blocks and then sit in seiza on those while he watched television. This is a fast route like a bottle, but I believe that the towels prevented grinding and damage on the bone somewhat.

The whole issue of "conditioning" to me is highly controversial to begin with. Younger people under 18 (maybe even 20) really shouldn't be doing it beyond what they get in everyday hitting on targets or pads. For most people, it is not necessary to be as tough as a professional fighter, even for self-defense. Because it is so easy to screw it up, I am very careful about advising students to engage in conditioning exercises.

CEB
5th September 2003, 21:07
Originally posted by gmanry
...
The whole issue of "conditioning" to me is highly controversial to begin with. Younger people under 18 (maybe even 20) really shouldn't be doing it beyond what they get in everyday hitting on targets or pads. For most people, it is not necessary to be as tough as a professional fighter, even for self-defense. Because it is so easy to screw it up, I am very careful about advising students to engage in conditioning exercises.

I didn't much controversy in it. When I was a beginner I just wanted to get though class and was way too stuborn to quit. I felt it necessary for the way we practiced because in the course of kumite our shins clash bone on bone or we block kicks with our legs. Also I felt I had to do the conditioning outside of class to get to the point where I was able to do the conditioning we did in class. This was the hard part of training for me as a kyu. The exercise we used most was just to stand straight across from each other and kick low cross-body and make shin bone contact. Sometimes this is done in conjunction with arm conditioning drills but the arm conditioning drills we like doing the most works 2 kinds of jodan uke 2x each alternating arms, 2 kinds of chudan uke 2x each alternating arms, 2 kinds of gedan uke 2x each alternating arms. Then a single chudan uke and front past you partner's hip then you turn 180 degrees and do the 2nd chudan uke using muchimi you try to pull you partner forward on his face. It is very important to hit a proper Sanchin Dachi and do proper uke technique. Since we really like this excercise we usually segregated the leg conditioning from koteate training. I know when I spar at some of the other schools I visit from time to time I started wearing cloth shin pads because people didn't want to free practice with me. I can't help it in was drilled into me that when someone would kick at me I would bring up my leg and bash shins. Some people do not like to practice this way.

If it a mid section kick and it get though then I bring my elbows down on the incoming foot or leg. People don't like that one either I guess. :)

The Thai Pad thingies sounds interesting I have never seen them used. I see them in the Ringside catalog. If there are smarter ways to do this sort of training I am all for it.

hector gomez
5th September 2003, 21:44
Ed it's all good.The article you posted comes from the newer methods of training in Thailand as opposed to say 50 years ago.I think this mentality goes hand in hand with the hand conditioning(The enourmous knuckles) on the makiwara,which some people believe is not only harmful but not as important as some other aspects of training such as timming,speed,and pinpoint acurracy.


The conditioning on the shins & hands is very important and must be done inorder to withstand the shock of impact.I think the newer concept is based upon gradual buildup over time on softer objects as opposed to faster buildup on harder objects both I guess have their pros or cons.

It could be all irrevelant,Example,I can take an older lady with no MA background into an operation table and with the latest technical surgery transplant a steel like fist into her arm,BANG all the sudden she has a steel fist,WHOOPI,BIG DEAL,She still has no timming speed or technique,so it really does not matter since it makes that steel fist seem less of a factor in the big scope of things.


Hector Gomez

hector gomez
5th September 2003, 21:56
PS:I take that all back,the newer methods have helped me break O bats,while Antonios tougher conditioning methods have yielded him 2 bats.

:smash:

Dammit I hate pain.


Hector Gomez