Origin of Bangai no Bu

[Robert Reinberger]

I try to gather informations regarding the origin of several parts of the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu syllabus.

So far as I know, the Okuden part (Okuiai Iwaza no Bu and Okuiai Tachiwaza no Bu, including Itomagoi) is attributed to the style's founder, Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu, the Chuden part (Tatehiza no Bu) to Hasegawa Chikaranosuke Eishin and the Shoden part (Seiza no Bu) to Omori Rokurozaemon Masamitsu. Of course, the Kata as they are known today have been revised and rearranged in the meantime.

Some time ago in a post here at e-budo I read about Batto Ho being the creation of Kono Hyakuren, to teach naval officers (much like 'Toyama Ryu' was developed for the army, at least for the students of the Toyama Gakko, if I understand this correct).

Finally, in a recent thread, Mr. Hartman wrote:

'As a side note, I am under the impression from Masaoka Sensei`s book that the Tachiuchi no Kurai were either formulated by Oe S. himself or were reconfigured by Oe S. when he rearranged and rationalized ther MJER curriculum.'

Any comments or corrections so far?

What I've not yet heard or read about it is how or by whom the 4 Kata of Okuiai Bangai no Bu were developed or adopted into MJER. I'm under the impression that these Kata must have been in existence at the time of Oe Masamichi, or Fukui Harumasa at least, given that they are taught in the branch of Iwata Norikazu Sensei as well as in Fukui Torao Sensei's school. Therefore I suppose that these forms are older than the Batto Ho forms of Kono Sensei.

Does anybody have infomations regarding this question?
Of course, if there are additional informations about further parts of the MJER curriculum, they would be appreciated as well. :)

Thank you in advance and
with best regards,
Robert

[Scott Irey]

Robert,

To the best of my knowledge the Bangai were created by Oe Masamichi. I understand that they are simply several components from older waza put in order by Oe sensei when he revamped the Tosa swordsmanship curriculum turning it into what is today called Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.

As a side note, the Batto-ho or "Eishin ryu Batto-ho" was created by Konno Hyakuren to teach navy officers the fundamentals of swordsmanship. When he created the set it was named the Dai Nippon Batto-ho "Great Japan Sword Drawing Way" Konno sensei also developed the exercise Hayanuki. Hayanuki is simply all the Chuden waza performed all the way through in 90 seconds in both katate (single-handed) and morote (both hands on sword) Ted Davis, Kaicho of the Canadian Iaido Association, to the best of my knowledge is the only person I have seen outside of Japan that knows the Hayanuki in both katate and morote with a level of real fluency.

Hope that answered some of your questions and helped wet your appetite for MJER history and trivia :)




[Edited by Scott Irey on 09-15-2000 at 03:03 AM]

[Robert Reinberger]

Originally posted by Scott Irey
Hope that answered some of your questions and helped wet your appetite for MJER history and trivia :)

Dear Mr. Irey,

it did. Interesting informations, especially the mention of Hayanuki, I haven't heard of it before. Thank you for your contribution.


BTW, in another thread, hyaku posted:
It is not known who formulated the Tachiuchi no Kurai as in this case the records don't go back as far as the Waza. All that is really certain is that it originated from the Shimomura-ha. I do have a video somewhere from when it was reintroduced to Japan some 17 years ago as Hasegawa Eishin Ryu.

In that post he also mentioned Oe Sensei as the originator of Bangai.

Just wanted to include this statements here, for the sake of completeness.

However, regarding the Shimomura-ha origin of Tachi Uchi no Kurai, and it's 'reintroduction' only 17 years ago, I'm surprised that it can also be found in the syllabus of Fukui Torao's (now: Ikeda Sensei's) school, so far as I know (of course, they seem to be of more prominence in the Seito MJER of Miura Sensei).

Any comments?

Regards,
Robert

[Joseph Svinth]

Kim Taylor says he calls bangai no bu "bangai den". He adds that, from what he recalls, Oe Masamichi came up with the three combination forms Haya nami(?), Raiden, and Jinrai. "Yurumi Uchi or Shiho barai came after Oe, forget which and I forget who, but it's likely Yurumi Uchi since Shiho Barai is just another in the set of combination techniques."

Hayanuki is Oe Masamichi not Konno Hyakuren and it is studied in his line using both the two handed and katate forms.

Anyway, it's all in Kim's Big Book of Iaido #4.

[hyaku]

Sorry I should have said that the Tachiuchi no Kurai reintroduction I mentioned was by the ZNKR Iaido-Bu.

My apologies.

I am sure most people know, but would also like to add that Hayanuki like Kaishaku should not be done for demonstrations as it is impolite.

Shiho Barai is a very old technique not particular to MJER or the sword.?@It is perhaps older than some records show.
As I understand this was formulated to give MJER their own standardized Shiho-Barai as is Kaishaku.

Various Ryu do this at the beginning of shrine ceremonies, taikai etc.as a purification ceremony.

Barai is Harai. Im sure members are familiar with the Shinto O Harai. The Shinto purification rite performed at Shrines. Forty two year old members of the Forum are into Yaku Doshi, an age that you are likely to get burned/come into misfortune. So you should get repurified! (Heh Heh)

I do this at ceremonies with a Nagamaki a few times a year.


Hyakutake Colin - (That shaven headed guy with a Japanese name who does not wear a hakama and if he didnt wear a belt his trousers would fall down)

[Robert Reinberger]

hyaku,

thanks for the clarification.


Originally posted by hyaku

I am sure most people know, but would also like to add that Hayanuki like Kaishaku should not be done for demonstrations as it is impolite.


In our group it is also a rule not to perform Kaishaku at examinations.

It was a peculiar feeling hard to describe, but I really felt uncomfortable when I once saw Kaishaku performed at a demonstration in the presence of the Japanese ambassador to Austria by a practioner from another group (MJER). Perhaps it would have been (still but) less embarassing for me (who was only a visitor and had nothing to do with the event and demonstration whatsoever), if only Austrians would have been present, because probably nobody would have recognized that breach of ettiquette. But there were a lot of Japanese people at that event, including said ambassador. I suppose that added to my feeling of unease and I felt ashamed as an Austrian Budoka at this moment. Of course, neither the ambassador nor anybody of his compatriots did show any of their feelings.

I would assume that even a person with only western sozialisation and without any knowledge of Japanese affairs, when told the meaning of that form, would feel the need to handle it with reserve.

Do you think that average, or even higher level people of Japan would feel the same, even if they don't know about Budo or that special object? Because however, the Japanese visitors of that event had no chance to misunderstand the meaning of the form, it's name 'Kaishaku' was clearly announced before the Kata was demonstrated.

Robert

[Scott Irey]

Mr. Svinth,

I had always been taught that the Hayanuki were an invention of Konno Hyakuren, but it appears we have conflicting information. Perhaps Collin Hyakutake would let us know, his teacher Iwata sensei is considered by all the various MJER groups to be the one to ask for the final answer on MJER history.

As for Oe Masamichi's line.. well all MJER groups extant today can trace themselves directly back to Oe sensei. How close they come to practicing MJER in the same fashion as he did is the basis for much debate here in the West as well as in Japan (not quite so public in Japan as it is here though) My personal feeling on how close we are to practicing Oe senseis style is that all of the extant lines of MJER around today are the products of the various Kongennomaki holders Oe sensei taught. They all had their own spin on what Oe sensei was teaching and undoubtably passed on their interpretations to their various students. Easily explains the great differences you see in details of waza from group to group.

Finally I see that you are in Edmonds, WA. I am in Shoreline, WA. we are more than practically neighbors! I would certainly love to get together sometime and train. Send me an email sometime and we can try to arange a time to get together.