View Full Version : Name it?

15th September 2000, 03:19

Uke on the left is defending against Haraigoshi (By the insertion of his left leg) using a named Kodokan technique. Can anyone name it?

For bonus points, can you discuss under what circumstances it is legal, and illegal, in competition?

15th September 2000, 09:10
I have looked at this photo for an hour now, and I cannot see a reverse by stepping inside with the left leg as such. I have always defended foreward throws by spreading my legs and dropping my center, as 120lbs needs to get down in a hurry.

Then there is haraigoshi-gaeshi, but that would be stepping around tori's left leg, and wrapping it up and throwing to the back.

As far as it being legal or not, and when, I have seen people drop to one knee, and tori would be hitting a sore "spot" if you get my drift. If that is what is meant, then I can see the reason for not allowing it. Stepping in and pushing tori foreward is another possibility.

Uke seems to be resisting to the rear, so no, I can't think of one.

Possibly ushirogoshi?

[Edited by MarkF on 09-15-2000 at 03:16 AM]

Jeff Cook
15th September 2000, 11:50
I'm stumped too.

I am amazed and gratified to see the nasty bruises on both of their ankles.

So much for a soft de-ashi harai!

Jeff Cook

Bob Steinkraus
15th September 2000, 21:15
No idea what it's called, but...

It would be illegal if the competitor applying the technique attempted to throw his opponent forward, or if he wrapped his leg around his opponent's leg all the way.

I have a book on O-Soto-Gari written by Syd Hoare showing photos from the World University Championships (1969?) showing Ninomya wrapping his leg around his opponent's in a clearly illegal fashion. Ninomya won the tournament, and later added a world championship and an Olympic gold medal to his trophy room.

16th September 2000, 02:04
Just a slight correction here... this is a defense to Haraigoshi, but NOT a reversal (gaeshi), or anything *other* than a method of stopping Haraigoshi from being successful.

I believe it was Bob who commented that it would be illegal if used to throw tori forward... absolutely! It is my understanding (Refs: correct me here!) that this leg position (left leg) is legal AS LONG AS it is not 'calf to shin'... it must, in other words, be turned so that it's shin against shin.

I'll wait a tad more before posting the name of the technique. And, as a hint, it's found in only two books that I know of, and the author of one of those books is the person demonstrating the defense.

Mifune shows this defense against an Uchimata, but doesn't name it (pg 185-186).

17th September 2000, 03:20
Hi, Ben.

If Anton (that is Anton, isn't it?) reaps the "main supporting member" (planted leg) from the inside, he will have committed a prohibited act. He must also avoid Kawazu Gake (coiling the opponent's leg). But knowing Anton, I would say he would Bump up with his right thigh, pull right and capture the planted leg left and turn to his right to throw Te Guruma.

Just a wild guess on my part.

17th September 2000, 04:03
How did anyone guess this was Anton Geesink? And in an Olympic year even?! Luck, I guess.


What Anton does after this could be anyone's guess, but left foot of Anton stops the Haraigoshi cold. Or, as Mifune shows, Uchimata. (Since tori would in essence be trying to throw himself.)

In his book, Anton tells of his continuation at this point: "Just the same, in order to make doubly sure, I twist my trunk half a turn away from him and disengage my right hand. My opponent, falling forward, is kept under control with my left hand."

17th September 2000, 07:22
Hi, Ben.

Even if I didn't know the face, the belt knot of tori (if you can call him that) is a full twelve inches below uke's.

As inspector Cluseau would say "It is a Cleu!"

Did you concede me the prohibited acts?


17th September 2000, 07:37
Ed, Actually, I believe it was Bob who first mentioned what would be illegal. But you *are* absolutely correct.

No comment on the cartoon? And I thought it was cute!! It was at least appropriate...

17th September 2000, 08:28
Geez, Ed. That never even occured to me, and the only thing I did think, was that uke could push tori forward (no, I did not say that it would be illegal, so the credit still goes to Bob.:o


17th September 2000, 08:33
Of course, there is the "dutchman's" teacher, but we don't have to get into that. Jon Bluming is one scary guy.:redhot:


17th September 2000, 16:05
Hi, Guys.

I wasn't trying to take anything away from Bob; he nailed the action. I was just feeling smug about putting a name to it. I found it in the AAU USJF Official Judo Handbook (1968).

The cartoon is a classic! It reminds me of the time I saw Johnny Watt walk into an auditorium carrying a gi bag. (A FEARSOME SIGHT when you are a 17 year old heavyweight, ALSO carrying a gi bag!)

Consider it stolen!


17th September 2000, 21:25
Ahh... Ed, you've put a name to a prohibited act... but the name of this *legal* defensive move is still up in the air.

I happen to know that it is referenced in only three books (that I'm aware of), and named in only two.

As for the cartoons... I've got a whole book of 'em. Anyone else have "The Joke's on Judo" by Draeger? I'll post more if people are interested...

Joseph Svinth
18th September 2000, 08:48
Bluming was Ruska's teacher, not Geesink's. And so far as I know, Bluming and Geesink never met in competition or training, as they were from rival organizations.

As for the cartoon, I believe it originally appeared in "Judo" (Croyden), which was the magazine edited by Alan Cornwall-Menzies. Either that, or "Budokwai Quarterly Bulletin."

21st September 2000, 04:48
I guess it's time to name it... found in only two references I'm aware of, Anton Geesink's "My Judo", and Syd Hoare's "Judo A-Z", this blocking defense technique is called "Kusabi Dome". Translated in Geesink's book as "Wedge Block".

21st September 2000, 09:39
And I thought it was simply spreading one's feet, thereby, lowering the center.

Thanks, Ben. I'm glad you play by the "rules" and never, ever mislead anyone.:toast:


4th October 2000, 07:24

I just acquired Gene LeBell's book, and he doesn't name it. But he sure does do it!

And BTW Mark, remember I was talking about teaching "This VERY EFFECTIVE SAMOAN SHOULDER BUTT I never want to see you doing in competition?"

LeBell teaches like that in his book (over forty techniques are illegal!) he just says, "Don't use this in competition, and then explains the infinitesemal details."

Who says judo isn't martial art?

4th October 2000, 10:44
Gene's a professional wrestler. Who said he was judoka? Well, he did feel slighted by the USJF when they wouldn't give him higher grades after some personal-public problems came to light, and now is a proud member of the USMAA. Guys you look up to can suddenly seem so short (sighted)?

Mostly, I don't believe most judoka do not have his/her ways of cheating, even if it isn't, but just against the spirit of judo. I had mine, but I'll never talk, never, I tell ya, never!:shot:

4th October 2000, 11:41

USJF had him at Godan in 1968 (#5-217). He was AAU national heavy & open weight Champion in '54 and '55. (How many Nationals you got, my friend?) He is not the first to combine wrestling & Judo (as do I), nor is he alone in the USMA (Charter Member), so what's your point? You know me and my background, and I learned fifteen arts on first read, and got some eye-opening variations. "By their fruits ye shall know them." LeBell's a keeper!

Just my take.

5th October 2000, 09:05
Hey, Ed!
Gene is someone I trained with occasionally. I did virtually all my training in the Los Angeles area until 1986 when I moved to New Mexico. If I didn't know Gene, I wouldn't have said anything. I have no disrespect for him at all.

But he did feel sleighted, and the last time I saw him was in 1997. While he rarely spoke about it publically, he did have a problem which he thought may have affected that relationship. I do NOT hold anything against this man. He taught me a lot, particlarly defensive moves based on my lack of height and weight. He also once said about shime-waza that three chokes were more than adequate in judo, and then proceeded to choke me almost out, to the point I didn't have time to tap. He let up. He also taught me techniques which are not legal, as is in that book.

My teacher at that time was Tokuo "Bob" Ota his dojo being the Hollywood and Glendale YMCAs. I also lived close to both of them; Van Nuys, Encino area of the San Fernando Valley.

My comment went only so far, as it was a sarcastic comment on his profession, and yes, I do know many judoka who were/are professional wrestlers, and they go back to pre-1900. Gene is still doing stunt work in the studios, keeps up a dojo, and writes. His mother was Eileen Eaton, the former owner of the Olympic Auditorium, where the boxing and wrestling events were held in the Games of 1932, I believe, and he originally wanted to be a boxer. After winning his second of two AAU nationals (the first was the first year they were held), he opened a commercial dojo and was no longer eligible for amateur status. In the early sixites, after an article appeared in a New York paper, titled "Judo Bums," which basically said that all judo men were bums and that any decent boxer could take any of 'em. He accepted the challenge, and fought Milo Savage, a top ranking Light-Heavyeight of the time (I think it was 1963). Without going into the "gory" details, Gene knocked out Savage with a left sided hip throw and front choke.

Anyway, there are great stories about him, including getting Willem Ruska to wrestle for about 80,000 dollars for a year. I saw one match on television, but I don't know what happened or if Ruska continued on the pro circuit to fullfill the contract or not.

So, yes, I know about Gene, and I have great respect for the man.

Bottom line is that he is a wrestler, and he also said there is not a single wrestling move that cannot be found in judo, or vice versa, I can't remember now. I first met him when I was just a kid, and my cousin was doing judo with him at his original dojo.

My comment about judoka who "cheat" is that some do. It mainly went to what he taught, and when he taught what he did.

No, I don't have any national titles; as an adult, but I do have opinions, and about this one, I don't pretend to give opinions I think would be taken the way it seems you took them, unless I know better, and on this one, I do. I suppose I will have to go to the smilies.:)


5th October 2000, 11:32
Hi, Mark.

I can sure be a grumpy old fart at 3:41 AM! Sorry I missed your meaning and "Jumped in headfirst with both feet." (God,I love Yogi Berra!) I had just reallized we were out of coffee, then YOU came along! And the dog was asleep, or "being good" as we say. No one else to kick (who would hold still, anyway).

Besides, it's fun yelling at little guys. We really do have to get together some time!


6th October 2000, 07:35
No problem, Ed. Check your mail, though. I'm in California from time to time as I have family I have to see, whether I want to or not.;) I know where Carmichael is. I was born and raised in Stockton. In the fifties, it had its appeal, something I thought I could get back if I moved to a small city or big town like Albuquerque.

I also know what the grumpies are like, as you can see. I've even been known to start fires on E-budo. Ask any regular who have been around here for a while. :wave: