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cheunglo
3rd June 2003, 16:34
About 4 weeks ago, some members of Abbey Dojo, including Cailey, Akhim and me, found ourselves discussing the Ultimate Fighting Championships and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

The style founded by the Gracie family, which dominate the UFC, is characterised by a grappling attack according to the following steps:
1. Begin with a feint.
2. Duck head down and charge at opponents legs.
3. Wrestle opponent to the ground.
4. Gain a submission by choke, arm lock or leg lock.

I apologise for any stereotyping but I need to get across a basic picture of the attack.

When I was described the above attack, I was incredulous that the attack would work at beginner level, let alone dominate the upper echelons of what I understood to be a brutal sport. In doing so, I was guilty of what I warn others against: I was complacent! When we experimented with defending against this attack, the effectiveness of the technique was dazzling.

The problem for the defender is that almost no weak points are exposed. After some 4 weeks of trial and error, it was not until we received some wisdom from Sensei, after he return from a trip abroad, that we found the following defences:
1. First try to keep the attacker away by Mei Uchi.
2. If 1 fails, you must prevent the attacker from getting both hands
around your legs. With just one hand, the attacker does not have
enough leverage to take you to ground.
3. Under no circumstances should you try Keri. It will end badly
for you.
4. Beware of placing your face directly above the back of their head.
You will be vulnerable to a reverse head butt.
5. At this point, you may have the option of striking Noko, A-mon,
Keichu, Tenchu or Keikotsu. However, if the attacker is moving
around, it is difficult to strike the right point at the right
angle. Alternatively, you may be able to apply Appo to
Dokko or Furin.

We found the application of Juho to be difficult as all the angles are unfamiliar and punitive. However, beware that if you try Juho, you will be playing into their game.

The experience of going through this provoked a troubling conclusion. What other attacks are out there that we should be able to defend against but would not be able to because we have never encountered it? As Shorinji Kempo Kenshi, we need to share this information with each other.

Have you encountered anything similiar. If so, what have you discovered that will be effective against it.

George Hyde
3rd June 2003, 16:48
Hi Cheung,

Interesting observations. I've mulled this over before and only played with it to a limited extent.

My view is that anyone adopting this attack has the advantages you pointed out (i.e., being fairly well protected) and you'd be silly to try to meet the attack head on. However, they have the disadvantage of limitations in what they can do once they commit to the attack.

My approach is to avoid/deflect the attack by stepping away from and off it's original trajectory - once committed, the attacker is able to charge, but not so able to chase, should you move. Therein they have to adjust and opportunities for goho and/or juho generally arise.

Later,

George

colin linz
4th June 2003, 09:50
The Gracie’s are very good at what they do. However they don’t do anything that is new to Ju Jutsu, where they differ appears to be the training methods they use. The Gracie’s seem to focus heavily on randori, and working on the application of a few techniques rather than knowing a large number.

The charge down they use to gain entry has also been used by Ju Jutsu practitioners for many years. I believe (I may be wrong) this is why Karate punch the way they do. Karate, being a development of Kempo was originally designed by the Okinawans to defend themselves from the occupying Japanese samurai, who when not slicing and dicing used Ju Jutsu as their method of fighting. The Kempo punch is very similar to a boxers punch, where as the Karate punch has a twist, this twist and arm position has the effect of locking the elbow and reduces the chance of the punch collapsing under the charge, this can help keep the attacker at distance.

I agree with George about the strategies needed against this type of attack, this may necessitate the same patience that the Gracie’s use. I watched a match between one of the Gracie’s and a Tai Boxer, once he gained entry on the boxer he just held onto him keeping his body tight against his opponent, this had the effect of nullifying the boxers knee strikes. Because the Boxer had to carry the weight of his opponent he had to work much harder. Eventually the Boxers exhaustion caused him to make an opening that Gracie could use to trip him to the ground and finish off.

Shorinji Kempo has many techniques that could prove effective against these style of opponents, even when confined to the ground, it is just a matter of being able to adapt the principles of techniques into a different environment (easy really ;)) and training for it.

Mike Williams
4th June 2003, 10:31
Hope you don't mind me wandering on to your thread (I'm not a Kenshi, but I am a BJJ'er/Jujutsuka).

The most effective defence against the double-leg takedown is the sprawl - watch some of the later UFCs and you'll see this used more and more often. If you get really adept at it, you can even choose to keep the fight off the ground. There are other defenses (knee to the face if they come in head down; various sacrifice throws), but they are lower percentage and you'll end up on the ground anyway. (If you've already described these defences, I apologise - I'm not familiar with SK terminology)

Be very wary of moving off to one side - chances are your attacker can also change his angle, and it will just turn from a double- into a single-leg take-down. Unless you just want to keep out of his way entirely and apply nike-jutsu (nothing wrong with that).

The second most common BJJ takedown is kosoto-gake (outer hook/trip) from a standing clinch (see the Thai boxer story above). If you learn a couple of counters to that, and learn to sprawl, you'll be sorted. ;)

Cheers,

Mike

PS: That karate punch - erm, no.

tony leith
4th June 2003, 13:37
Interesting. I do think it's important to keep reminding ourselves that in a self defence context we're not likely to be dealing with recogniseable Kempo hokei on the part of an attacker (though of course we can hope that basic hokei patterns of movement will help dealing with it). I personally am not much interested in cross training per se, but have taken the opportunities to do some sparring with people coming from other traditions and perspectives.

One of the most unusual was with a Russian guy practising a system premised on Westerners having a higher centre of gravity than Japanese or other oriental peoples, with the handwork coming out of a constantly weaving figure of eight pattern. This was so alien to my own experience that it was very difficult to read and anticipate where the next attack was coming from. It was worth the bruised ribs I ended up with as a result of a particularly vigourous sidekick, though. Made me think.

Tony leith

John McCulloch
4th June 2003, 21:30
Gassho Everybody,

Fascinating topic.

I've been researching this too of late and think that the techniques of Gracie/Brazilian JJ are definitely formidable. In addition, it is worthwhile to study what methods the NHB people use since, after all, they get to test things in a very realistic format.

In the UFC and Pride FC competitions there are still rules, however. One important rule (as I understand it) is that you cannot strike the rear of the head or the spinal area of the back. When a fighter shoots in to catch the legs for a takedown, he is (albeit very briefly) giving up the back of his head and back. If the defender has made an effective sprawl to the shoot attempt then it is possible to make a serious counterattack to the attackers exposed rear side. But since the rules forbid it, the most common alternative to try and choke the attacker with a guilletine or side naked choke.

Given that the gloves worn in NHB competition cover the knuckles, I doubt that kyusho would be of much use, even though many would be exposed in that type of attack.

It is also interesting to note that the only fighter to have consistent success against the Gracies is a former professional wrestler (Kazushi Sakuraba) who is just about the most unpredictable and strange fighter you could ever imagine (e.g. using daisharin to close ground for an attack, using gedan yoko tobi geri against an opponent who was defending well from the ground!). Check him out.

John McCulloch
Toronto

Steve Williams
5th June 2003, 23:06
Hi John, how are things in Toronto at the moment??



Back to something you said, as I understand it (was led to believe) once the fight "goes to the ground" then strikes to the head/nack are not allowed, except for strikes with the forearm......
Basically takes away your use of fists and elbows.
In close your elbows and knees are the much underused weapons.... nobody (much) in Shorinji uses them, or even talks about using them, try it IT WORKS......

(they always used to say I "fight dirty" but I though I "fight cleverly" ;) )

John McCulloch
6th June 2003, 04:27
Gassho Steve!

Things are fine in Toronto - don't believe everything you read in the papers. ;)

In terms of strike limitations, it's only the back of the head, spine and kidneys that's outlawed (as far as I know).

Totally agree about the knees too, especially when used in a clinch a la Muay Thai. Ouch!

All the best,

John McCulloch

Steve Williams
6th June 2003, 10:45
John, I don't believe anything I read in the papers ;)


Back to the topic...

I think that the main problem with all these "ultimate fighting/K1/no-holds-barred" contests, is that they all say no-rules, but they all have rules......

I know that they must have some sort of rules, i.e. no biting/gouging.... but why market them as "ultimate fight/whatever" when all the effective "evil" stuff is not allowed to be used?


I would consider it a bit of a "moot point" to say what if..... in regards to defending against certain attacks, when we are (or should be) learning a "practical form of self defense" (Shorinji) and although we do practice/teach defense against a wide range of attacks/grabs/whatever the "what if..." will always be there.
As far as "practical self defense" is concerned then surely you do whatever is required to defend yourself, the only stipulation from a Shorinji/moral/legal viewpoint is that you should only do "as much as is needed to subdue your attacker", so I will be using my elbows/knees and I will be going for the eyes/neck so that all the rules that are set in a "ultimate fighters situation" are not relevant.

But it is fun to "play" with the "what if..." type of scenario.... ;)
Doing this will enable us to better understand the ways you can use your body, and the ways that non-trained people may react....
Just remember that in a "real" situation you can use everything at your disposal..... and that includes the "dirty/evil" stuff :D

Steve Williams
6th June 2003, 11:03
Two "what if..." scenarios for you.....

Both were said to me a few years ago by "mates" both of who were not martial artists.

First, "what would you do if someone grabbed you like this....." proceeding to grab from the front in a bear-hug type embrace, too close to use my legs or knees, and my arms were pinned by my sides (he was quite a bit bigger/heavier/stronger than me)
I offered 3 responses:
head-butted him in the face
twisted my body and grabbed his groin
lifted my hand and grabbed a very large amount of flesh at his side. (sensei Jee special ;) I still have the scars)
All 3 responses made him either let go entirely, or release his grip enough to allow me to continue attacking him.

Second, "what if I did this....." then proceeded to grab one leg (sort of like "shooting" as in the description above, but only one leg.
I hit him in the back of his head, or neck
Also I kicked/knee'd him in his head/face.
Again the desired effect was reached.


In both cases I did not "hit" hard, and no pain (other than shock) was caused, after all they were my friends...... but the point was made, and since then they do not ask stupid "what if..." questions. :)

So by using no "pure technique" I was able to evade the attack.....
But I did use (what many would think of as) dirty stuff......

Like I said in a previous post, they say I fight dirty, I say I fight cleverly.....


And finally, in both cases, they said " but that is not using martial arts" meaning I did not do a spinning back kick type of defence.... :(
Public perception is sometimes funny......

tony leith
6th June 2003, 11:35
The foregoing is a direct quote from Mizuno Sensei, and a truth that's always been apparent to me as somebody who stands all of five foot four (and 3/4 of an inch, never let it be forgotten) tall. All right, I weigh about eleven stone and my build might charitably be described as stocky, but height and reach do confer obvious advantanges on an attacker, as does greater physical strength. I've done a fair amount of weight training, but I see people in the gym that can bench press more than I can squat, and if I think I could ever compete with these people on equal terms I'd be kidding myself.

The whole point about Shorinji Kempo is obviously to negate the attackers advantages. Now, the principles of using balance, leverage, and weak points in the body count for a lot, but so does using basically any trick in the book. To my mind, one of the points against tournament style randori is a lot of the more dependeable counters are disallowed - similarly, even in formidable system like Muay Thai you can't go for the eyes or for the groin, which is pretty much Route One for self defence (one of the few comforting things about sparring with people from Muay thai backgrounds is that they do tend to open their groins as they kick - just as well, because once the kick gets up to speed or they've committed their weight to it fully you're in deep s**t). Kempo randori if done with sombody you really trust can incorporate all of these elements, including at least thinking about where using elbows and knees would be useful. If you want to practice the strikes, that's what pads and dos are for...

Tony leith