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O'Neill
3rd June 2003, 21:50
Do any of the daito ryu groups in japan address fast realistic punch/kick combos? I only ever see the defenses against yokomenuchi and shomenuchi? I have heard that the group run by Kiyama sensei does? Maybe they are not interested in the combative aspects of the art as Japan is so nonviolent compared to the U.S.

Walker
4th June 2003, 07:41
These are not the droids you’re looking for.

Move along. Move along.

Steve Delaney
4th June 2003, 08:02
Credits will do fine.

O'Neill
4th June 2003, 19:02
What does that mean?

Eric Joyce
4th June 2003, 20:29
? In reference to these boards, I believe it means that there is something in question about something. I am not trying to be a smart A** or anything like that, but I have seen them used to ask questions or used to question something.

Arman
4th June 2003, 21:22
The Goshinyo no te involves more "practical" self-defense techniques, although probably not exactly what you are thinking of. I think there are, perhaps, some people who spend time unpacking the principles from the classical kata to apply the same principles to modern combative situations. Daito ryu contains some fairly sophisticated combative principles, even over and above so-called modern fighting arts, IMO.

It covers what hoplologists call the "approach - close - entry" elements of a combative engagement. Consider that many arts BEGIN at the entry and/or engaged elements of combat and all but ignore the approach and close elements.

Also consider that a kata is a packet of combative principles. It is supposed to contain important combative information, translated through both psychological and physical pattern activity. Generally speaking, the kata are NOT designed as pre-packaged sets of tools to utilize if someone, say, grabs your left hand, or throws a right haymaker, etc. So, even though the kata may involve a shomenuchi attack, the principles involved in meeting the attack should be just as applicable to a haymaker. One just needs to do some thinking and adjusting of the physical angles of response. The psychological part should stay the same, and is really the most critical part of the whole thing.

Daito ryu combative training begins way before the actual physical engagement.

Just some thoughts,
Regards,
Arman Partamian

O'Neill
5th June 2003, 00:12
I agree that kata are patterns that are most useful and divulge much info to those willing to train for years but I was wondering how the daito ryu practitioner deals with powerful combinations from a good fighter, are things like this addressed in a mainline dojo (just an example) or does one discover them during ones own practice outside of daito ryu. I heard that the daibukan of ohgami sensei work against these attacks quite a bit.

CKohalyk
5th June 2003, 01:27
In my experience you have to go out of your dojo. There ARE a few combinations, but they are more like counterattacks (eg some guy attacks you, you do something, he tries to counterpunch you and you counter his counterattack), but no strong boxing/karate-style combos.

I have used some of my DR principles in Shooto (such as the approach - close - and entry that Arman mentioned above), but most of it is unuseable (particularly small joint attacks) because usually you are facing a pretty good fighter who is extremely athletic and has good positioning/balance.

If you want to "combatize" your DR, try Ashihara. Their circle principles blend smoothly with DR, and will make you a bit more rounded of a fighter without hurting your DR ability.

-CK

Walker
5th June 2003, 07:10
Originally posted by O'Neill
I agree that kata are patterns that are most useful and divulge much info to those willing to train for years but I was wondering how the daito ryu practitioner deals with powerful combinations from a good fighter, are things like this addressed in a mainline dojo (just an example) or does one discover them during ones own practice outside of daito ryu. Kick them in the nuts and apply aiki.

Sam17
5th June 2003, 14:54
I would like to say, first off, that Boxing is not a fighting art, it is a sport. “Powerful combinations” are only applicable to a sport, UFC etc, situation. This is not how a real fight is. But lets say, hypothetically, that someone comes at you with a combination of punches, well then you would take the first one and deal with that, and you will have time to do so as no one throws another punch until (a) they know their first punch has landed, or (b) they know it hasn’t. So as long as they feel neither of these then you will have enough time to get out of the way of the next punch, taking them into a technique. Karate, from what I have been told, works in much the same way, that is, on the principel of one exchange. DR and Karate are not, traditionally, sports and have no need for exchanging blows over and over until someone gets knocked out. I think it’s the fault of sports like boxing where the people watching start to get the idea that real fights are like that, there not. I know, I used to box, and the first thing you learn is that boxing will not make you good, or capable at self defence, it will, however, make you a bloody good athlete.

Someone also said that these techniques don’t work in some kind of competition because the opponents are “pretty good” fighters with good balance. Well again you can relate this misinterpretation to my above response. But I would also like to add that DR techniques were designed for use against very highly trained fighters, not Joe public. Most of the waza’s effectiveness depends on the amount of skill (and so intrinsically) balance of the uke.

Cheers

Sam

O'Neill
5th June 2003, 16:15
Boxing is not fighting? That's a new one by me. I have met some boxers that could rip apart most of the budoka that I've ever met.
Boxing history goes back at least as far as that of asian martial arts, if not further. I've seen many a fight where the guy that could box knocked the crap out of the other guy, in the street. I also agree that a top notch NHB fighter would be a rough encounter- though NHB isn't something that I am that interested in.

I was also shocked to hear that powerful combinations have no place outside of sport and that they are easy to deal with. I don't know where you boxed but philly has some of the finest (toughest) gyms in the world, it would be great to see those views excercised there.

Sam17
5th June 2003, 16:29
It’s a sport not a fighting art, ahhhhhh. And if the budoka can’t handle a boxer then there either not good budoka or not good fighters. Of course sometimes the boxer will beat other people up but (1) a DR Man would block and close the gap or apply a technique, and (2) the boxer is f**ked if you get in too close and start grappling.

See this is what I mean if you watch boxing enough you start to think it’s real, I used to think that until I started. You ask any boxer who isn’t delusional and they will tell you it isn’t fighting, in the REAL sense. And although I think UFC is an extension of this misguided idea about fighting sports being fighting, it is more realistic than boxing. And what happens to the boxers in UFC, they get…what was that? O yes, they get beat uppppp.

PS history makes no difference to whether an art is a fighting one or a sport, and as far as I can see I didn’t even mention history at all

Cheers
Sam

O'Neill
5th June 2003, 16:51
I understand that boxing is a sport but it is not as lowly a fighting art as many budoka will have you believe. It is not a complete fighting art but it is effective in its own right. The comment about it not being real was funny, let Lennox Lewis go a round or two with you and you tell me that it is not effective or real. I agree that jujutsu, aikijujutsu, and other arts are more complete but going against a very talented and hard hitting boxer is not a easy as one would think. Those punches can be very deceptive and blindingly fast. Blocks don't work against a deceptive fighter- they'd box your ears off if you tried the block each punch technique. Like I said, I think that people box differently (less effectively) where your from.

And about boxers in the UFC, it would help if they didn't put in washed up oldtimers. Put in some world class guys and the result could be different- especially against those who train in karate, kung fu (the karate in the ufc has been mostly of the westernized type).

monkeyboy_ssj
5th June 2003, 16:51
Originally posted by Sam17
It’s a sport not a fighting art, ahhhhhh. And if the budoka can’t handle a boxer then there either not good budoka or not good fighters. Of course sometimes the boxer will beat other people up but (1) a DR Man would block and close the gap or apply a technique, and (2) the boxer is f**ked if you get in too close and start grappling.


PS history makes no difference to whether an art is a fighting one or a sport, and as far as I can see I didn’t even mention history at all

Cheers
Sam

Sorry Sam, i have to disagree, You forget that most of the successful and most efficiant fighting arts use a boxing style core, Jeet Kune Do and other upright styles.

What is fighting? I think boxing falls under that definition, It's not a traditional martial art but it's still fighting...

Especially coming from the UK you must realise that it is human nature to mimic styles of fighting, i.e. if you get into a fight in the street the person will mimic a boxer and throw jabs and hooks. and Boxing being more wide spread then this is going to happen.

If you want to try and go straight in a throw a boxer then it's not going to happen, it works in the dojo, not always in the street.

I spar even sunday with Alex my Wing Chun teacher, you are welcome to come down (super friendly and all, not trying to start a fight) and have a muck about and do some training together, have you ever tried fighting against another stylist?

I'm in Ruislip Manor, end of the Picadilly or Met Line.

bring Chris too,

cheers mate

O'Neill
5th June 2003, 17:00
Boxing is definitely more traditional (longer history) than karate, judo,koryu jujutsu, wing chun, and many other arts. Boxing was done by the Romans and other ancient groups. One can even argue that Japanese budo is quit fresh and new. It (boxing) certainly has a longer tradition than those arts that I've mentioned. They are infants in comparison.

I was glad to see that someone else agreed with my views on boxing at least a little bit.

Ron Tisdale
5th June 2003, 17:02
I'm amazed that someone who actually boxed would advocate trying to block a boxer's combinations...:rolleyes: I can see a quick way to the floor in that one.

Ron

monkeyboy_ssj
5th June 2003, 17:06
Originally posted by O'Neill
Boxing is definitely more traditional (longer history) than karate, judo,koryu jujutsu, wing chun, and many other arts. Boxing was done by the Romans and other ancient groups. One can even argue that Japanese budo is quit fresh and new. It (boxing) certainly has a longer tradition than those arts that I've mentioned. They are infants in comparison.

I was glad to see that someone else agreed with my views on boxing at least a little bit.

Traditional in the sense of it's not the first thing you think of when some mentions 'Martial Arts' more gear towards the oriental arts.

What is practiced these days is Modern boxing, it's not the same as what it was with gloves and major rules changed.

That is true about japanese arts, people don't realise that Karate was only brought to the main lands of japan in the early part of the 20th century (1912?)

Fighting has been around since man walked this earth, it's part of survival, i mean many martial systems are based on the animals pure way of fighting.

Cheers

Sam17
5th June 2003, 17:30
Ey up, ang on a minuit. I’m a boxer, I boxed for 2 years, and I’ve seen boxers in fights loads of times and a lot of the time they kick ass. But that’s not what were talking about. Were talking about budoka and boxers. You lot obviously haven’t got into a lot of fights, it doesn’t happen like it does in the ring. After starting Jujutsu I got in to a fight with a boxer from my old club, one punch and I locked him up.
Boxers are not lightning fast, if they were so fast the other man wouldn’t be able to block, and a boxing match would just consist of two blokes hitting each other with no control over not getting hit. And Ron, do you not think there are blocks in boxing? Of course there are and of course if someone is going to punch you you block no matter whether they are a boxer or not. Budo is not some soft mans game, it is fighting, it’s just a shame that the budo world is not filled with fighters.

I think there is too much hypothetical fighting going on, maybe people should go and get some experience. Sparring and the like will usually, in my experience, not prepare you for a fight.

Come on boys were not pansies just because we don’t spar, it’s just that we see, or the masters that went before us saw, there is not a lot of point in sparring.

Kareteka hit harder than boxers, their punches are far more advanced, their stances are more balanced. Must i remind you that Sokaku Takada beat the Sh*t out of many karate masters when he went to okinawa.

Cheers
Sam

monkeyboy_ssj
5th June 2003, 17:33
I think it's down to the individual, not the style.

The style does not make the fighter, the person does.

Sam17
5th June 2003, 17:46
true, true,

but boxing is sooooooo limited it would be cr*p if someone tried to use it as slef defence. i think the reason why people get confused is because in boxing you have to prove your self, there is no room for people who can't box, you are constantly tested. this means that people who box are generally hard, but this should not be confused with good fighter. What you will get is people with good fighting spirit, and this on it's own can win fights in the "street"(i love that term). this is not true of budo and so many people who are not fighters are, and will always be present in budo.



Cheers
Sam

Ron Tisdale
5th June 2003, 19:51
Well Sam, we'll just have to disagree. I guess when I see a boxer of any quality, I just see something different from what you do. And I've seen way too many karateka destroyed by boxers. And I'll not even go to what I've seen happen to many aikidoka.

None of this is to say that we are pansies. Or that aikido or aikijujutsu doesn't work against a boxer. Or any of the other extremes you tend to take your posts to. Like telling people you've never met what their experience level is. Kind of childish, ain't it.

As to blocking, in my experience, most boxers don't do a lot of blocking in the sense of commonly seen karate blocks. They depend much more on posture, head movement and foot movement. Sliping punches to leave themselves in a better position to counter punch. But that's just my experience. Hey, maybe what my dad (a boxer, never beaten in the ring or out of it) taught me is all bullocks.

Ron

Eric Joyce
5th June 2003, 20:01
Hey Ron,

Your dad was a boxer? Did he box out of Philly?

Sam17
5th June 2003, 20:36
first off its bollocks not bullocks. second Have you hade a fight with a boxer, are you a boxer? if not then just listen from someone who knows. I have beaten a boxer with jujutsu, and i boxed for 2 years. there are 2 main blocks in boxing, one is a tap like block with the leading hand and the other is like a grab of the fist with the other hand. to be honest i don't rate aikido and i don't think you can compare it with AJJ one is budo the other is bujutsu. what your dad said wasen't bollocks but the boxing posture is c*ap for self defence. Just give it up, boxing is far too limited for self defence. I suggest you go and do some boxing, you may enjoy it, then you may gain a better understanding of what i'm talking about.
Just look at UFC

Sam

Ron Tisdale
5th June 2003, 20:53
Did you notice how I tried to be respectfull Sam? Since you seem incapable of that, I think our conversation is about to come to an end. And yes, I have boxed, kickboxed, wrestled, practised AJJ (mainline) and still love aikido, whether you like it or not. And if you read my post carefully, you'll notice that those two descriptions of "blocks" (which are really more like paries) are accounted for.

Hi Eric,

My dad boxed in the south, Jacksonville Florida. When I was a tyke, he tried to teach me, but I was kind of wimpy back then. Oh well...

Philly is a great city for boxing...if I had listened to my dad, I probably could have picked up some good training. Too old for that ring stuff now, and not really interested. I'm happier training for high level skill and principles now. Leave the young stuff for the younguns, I say. :) But I still like boxing for stand up hand stuff...the posture, the strikes, head movement is all good stuff. Combine that with clinch work and grappling, and you see what an athelete can do...just watch the ufc.

The problem is, most of us aren't conditioned like that, and it doesn't take weapons into consideration very well. Not to mention packs of hoodlums.

Ron

Ron

O'Neill
5th June 2003, 23:45
Then England isn't known for their boxers (Lewis is the exception).

CKohalyk
6th June 2003, 02:09
Originally posted by O'Neill
Then England isn't known for their boxers (Lewis is the exception).

Yeah... but he grew up in Canada.

My grandfather boxed and all his sons did too. The youngest even went pro for a short while in the 80's. My brother boxes, I grew up on boxing but then I got into the MA and been at it for 18 years in all kinds of arts. I did my time here in Japan at the Takumakai, and seen some great DR practitioners. Kinda like what Ron says about aikido, I like the principles and high-level of technique in DR.

For the past year I have been at a Shooto gym here in Kyoto. Different world, I am sure I don't have to tell you. I was being whooped by bloody KIDS with only the minimal amount of experience, even though I had 100s of waza to their 5. And it was not like I had never grappled before... Talk about destroying the ego...

But, they beat me for 2 simple reasons. Two small things that are not emphasized enough in the older arts. They were ATHLETIC, and had good POSITIONING. I learned fast and definitely feel more confident now.

Way back in the day when I was studying at university in Japan I asked Meik Skoss if it would be a good idea to join the judo team, if it would hurt my jujutsu. He told me do it. AC/DC is the way to go. And I agree with him totally.

This kinda meandered and I hope you get what I am trying to say. Gotta run. Stop by later,

CK

Brently Keen
6th June 2003, 06:36
"Do any of the daito ryu groups in japan address fast realistic punch/kick combos?"

Short answer, yup.

I always knew I was a short guy, but whenever I tried that stuff, with Sensei, or any of the better guys, I came up even shorter.

Brently Keen

Sam17
6th June 2003, 08:31
Ron, just disagreeing with me is useless. Argue your side of the argument with examples etc, like I have done, and I will argue mine. This way we will either find the truth of the argument or we will gain a better understanding of our own argument or the others argument. Blindly saying this is what I think that is what you think is counter productive. You don’t need to be respectful to me you don’t know me. All we should do is be intelligent in our responses, eg argue our points. I have already done this and will continue to do so, but I would be very grateful if you would do the same first.

As we are talking about real life i think if we can try and limit our examples to that, i would be much appreciated

cheers
sam

chris davis 200
6th June 2003, 11:09
Wehey!! Looks like i have missed out on something here!

Ok! My point of view.

Boxers have one thing on their side that many budoka dont, Fitness.

But as has been stated by sam, they are not self defence or street fighters. they have a high posture (no rooting), have a very limited arsenal of weapons focusing on scoring points and not causeing maximum damage, they cannot grapple and have no defence when inside their prefered range of combat, to locks or throws.

I would say that i have been in over 40 street encounters when working as a doorman. I working in a town where Muay Thai and boxing were very prevolent and most of the 'tough' guys practiced them. I was never (i repeate) never hit by a boxer or kickboxer in a real encounter. They are not as fast as people automatically assume. You can slip their punches and apply throws to their body with relative ease, when you are inside and in the process of breaking their arm or slamming them into the concrete they know they are beat.

When in a situation on the street the focus and mind of the opponent is very different to in the ring. It is like a rabbit caught in the headlights of a car. It knows it can run, but the situation makes it stay still. Similarly in the street most people that are ring fighters know that they can punch but are blinded by the situation, so they throw very dedicated punches and sometimes try to grab (i had a boxer grab me as an attack without throwing a single punch!!!). These are easy to counter. Should a boxer keep there cool, they are still fairly simple to dominate, throws and range are the key, so is timing.

Lets look at the timing of the average ring/street encounter, it is *you attack, i defend and then attack, you defend then atack i defend then attack*. (weather these are throws, punches kicks etc.) there is a definate flow or timing involved. So if you change or ignor the regular type of timing your will have the upper hand.

Instead of *they attack, i defend then attack*, it should be *they attack and my defence is a simulutanious counter attack*.

If you watch O sensei performing, he attacks as they attack, not by punching or kicking but by offbalancing them as soon as he is touched and throwing them. Part of the reason people were thrown so easily is because the are not expecting to be instantly on the defensive as they attack.

this is very true of boxers, they do not expect to be countered or thrown the moment they attack, this is their weakness.

Do aikido / aikijujutsu schools train full speed? this depends on the school, I know that we do.

Can aikido and JuJutsu deal with combination attacks? they can but often dont need too, the first technique is enough.

Can they defeat boxers? this is down to the individual fighter and not the style, but they have the odds in their favour.

just some thoughts.

Cheers
chris
;)

Dan Harden
6th June 2003, 12:47
Ron, just disagreeing with me is useless. Argue your side of the argument with examples etc, like I have done, and I will argue mine. This way we will either find the truth of the argument or we will gain a better understanding of our own argument or the others argument. Blindly saying this is what I think that is what you think is counter productive. You don’t need to be respectful to me you don’t know me. All we should do is be intelligent in our responses, eg argue our points. I have already done this and will continue to do so, but I would be very grateful if you would do the same first.

As we are talking about real life i think if we can try and limit our examples to that, i would be much appreciated

cheers
sam

****************************

Sam
There is much I could say to you about this subject. Probably far more than you will find here.

Posts like the above are the reason you have seen many dissapear from here and or drastically reduce their contributions. Having read your limited experience- why would men of deeper experiences be interested in making a statement and debating with you?
As an example: may I point out that wherein have you heard from those with a decade or more in Daito ryu who use it for freestyle fighting?
Just who, is debating.....what?


You will perhaps note-if you have been here awhile-that the place is changing.

I had a conversation with a fellow the other day. His background places him among the highest Budoka of our times. He is squarely against contributing anything for the simple reason that he will not debate with people with no comparative experiences. The only recourse is to either appear rude or just not show up for the party. So he and others like him don't anymore.

Myself? I prefer to debate in the dojo or after.
For some strange reason-it tends to give most people a better set of ears.

cheers
Dan

Ron Tisdale
6th June 2003, 14:15
Hey Dan! Good to see you around.

Hey Chris, nice post. You certainly have more street experience than I do (or want to have, for that matter). I have some problems with your first paragraph, but over all, I agree with your post. And maybe there are some geographic differences, as someone mentioned. :) Most of the boxers I've run into here don't get that "deer in the headlights" look. They pretty much just hit the people they face. But then in Phila., most of them grew up fighting in North Phila, so...

Ron

PS Some other posts aren't worth responding to, so I won't.

RT

Sam17
6th June 2003, 16:10
Dan I totally agree, I wish some people with a lot of experience in DR would post on this subject, it would be very productive. I also understand why they don’t. But as too limited experience, in DR yes and you will find that I have never posted on DR techniques or principles so on. I just wouldn’t, I don’t claim any experience in DR. what I do claim is experience in fighting, in and out of the ring. I understand if Ron believes he doesn’t have to quantify his opinion, but if he doesn’t, with examples etc, how I am I to progress my understanding on the subject. I only said that it is counter productive not to argue your side of the argument effectively. If we were in the dojo I wouldn’t be so argumentative, because you are probably my senior. But if we adopt this position on a discussion forum we will only get the opinions of those most senior to us, and sometimes they lack certain experiences that juniors make up for, that’s all I’m saying. I don’t think anyone can honestly argue for boxing as a viable self defence system. Boxing IS a sport, there’s no question. But is it effective in the street? My experience tells me no. Ron’s tells him yes. All I ask is the reasons for this judgment.

Maybe he’s right; maybe that’s where all those silly samurai were going wrong they should have just learned boxing.

Come on Dan, enough of the I’ve got more experience than you so don’t question what I say. I’m afraid we are all equal on here so try and act like it.

Also, I love this in America we fight all the time just to survive, you lot in England drink tea and talk out your differences….not like that.

Cheers
Sam

Brently Keen
6th June 2003, 16:23
Well put Dan.

I think you've stated the primary reason for more experienced people participating less and less on these forums. IMO it does have something to do with rei (or a lack of it). People always evaluate things according to their experiences - thus you have some people touting various styles or instructors as exceptional when they're really run of the mill or much worse.

As you and I have often said on these forums from the beginning - it's very difficult to make valid points understood in this e-medium. There are some people who know things that are more or less incomprehensible to others, and yet frequently when they have something to contribute, it goes right over the heads of the others who fail to appreciate what's being offered, and instead get caught up in arguing and debating ad nauseum, hoping to be heard, or have someone else validate their own ideas and experiences. How to illustrate such things clearly over a keyboard, modem, and screen to people who haven't the faintest idea how far-off they might be? If a picture is worth a thousand words, and a video clip 10,000, then a simple hands-on explanation will do what 100,000 pages on a forum like this could never do - and that is demonstrably validate the points being made. These are discussion boards - they're useful for exchanging information and ideas only to a very limited extent.

Musashi said the way is in training, and that's definitely true, there is really no way around that fact. But the depth and quality of one's training is entirely subjective to all sorts of factors. Whether in budo or bujutsu, I think it's helpful to remain mindful that someone has likely paved the way already for the for rest to follow - IOW we all have seniors and instructors who have gone before us, and we would all do well to remember to respect them for that. If as much time, energy and effort were spent inquiring into, exploring, and seeking out what they have to offer - then progress just might replace some of the meandering arguments, wandering debates, and needless babbling that takes place on these forums. Just my lowly opinion of course.

Brently Keen

Dan Harden
6th June 2003, 16:44
Ron and Brently

As you can see- I gave up trying. I had this "discussion" on the front lawn last night. Guy has talked to me about it and debated it in his minds eye and after he said. " I had no idea" "I've never faught this way or seen it, I can't get inside. What is that?"

Why debate something in words. What are our frames of reference? I know of VERY few people taking DR into freestyle. Why should I talk about it.

Sam
With respect-your missing the point entirely.
The queston is neutral- so is the answer.
After two years you feel you can discuss Boxing? OK if you're that confidant.
Where do you discuss DR used in a fighting frame work? How do you modify even basic Kata to get there? Which vectors work which do not?What methods of Aiki can and do work? What is best left at the dojo? And your answer is based on what? Fighting Whom?
Is this not what the thread is about?
Since you have no experiences worthy of debate on this very narrow topic- where does that make your opinion _equal_ to those that do.
Who has contributed on point who is just yaking?

If you wish to debate Boxing -is that not something entirely different?



****************************************************

Sam
You asked-stated
"Come on Dan, enough of the I’ve got more experience than you so don’t question what I say. I’m afraid we are all equal on here so try and act like it."


*********************
Uhmm.....No. We are mostly certainly not all equal here. Your thinking we ARE all equal is why you are left to debate this question with those who have little chance of addressing the question and giving an answer worth hearing. But feel free.
Do you realize how few men in the world have gone down that road?
The few who can answer....won't


There are some VERY serious people I would just love to hear from here in several various arts.
Is my opinion equal to theirs? Hardly!
And this is why why we won't hear from them.
I'm siging off the thread
Bye
Cheers
Dan

Mike B. Johnson
6th June 2003, 17:31
Hello,

Sam:

"Come on Dan, enough of the I’ve got more experience than you so don’t question what I say. I’m afraid we are all equal on here so try and act like it."

Dan:

Uhmm.....No. We are mostly certainly not all equal here. Your thinking we ARE all equal is why you are left to debate this question with those who have little chance of addressing the question and giving an answer worth hearing. But feel free.
Do you realize how few men in the world have gone down that road? The few who can answer....won't

______________

Geeze. Dan is right on point. This kind of malarky is the reson some of the brightest out there hardly ever post any more on e-budo. Sensei Threadgill of the Takemura Jujutsu group even withdrew from e-budo over dumb crap like this. The guy's a friggin Menkyo Kaiden under Yuki Takemura and used to post here. Now I have to go over to Bugei's board to read one of his rare posts. Our loss.

All the budo baby's out there should read more and type less.

John Lindsey. How about a forum limited to people whose credidentials and experience are verified? It'd keep out the riff-raf and encourage decent discussion for people more interested in reading and learning ( like me) than flitering out nonsense..

Just my opinion,

Mike Johnson

Sam17
6th June 2003, 17:39
"No experience" in DR not in boxing or fighting. Believe me you don't need the same amount of time in boxing as you do in koryu to make a point. And as far as i can see, dan, you have no point to make on the actual subject at hand. And i agree that it is very hard to converse on tinternet but i try. And if we were face to face a lot of the problems you have with my internet self would be cleared up straight away. I have to say we probably hold a lot of the same opinions, but on tinternet the same opinion can sound sooo different. but there you go. What i will add though is that boxiong does pick out the pussies from the hard people, something which budo, sadly does not do. you can't have a rest and a drink of water whenever you want when someones punching you in the face, Dan.

Cheers
Sam

Sam17
6th June 2003, 17:42
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH another ninja..

Brently Keen
6th June 2003, 18:08
:sigh: Sam obviously has never seen a DR master defend himself from an onslaught of punches while drinking a cold one without hardly spilling a sip.

Brently Keen

Hissho
6th June 2003, 21:13
Originally posted by Mike B. Johnson


John Lindsey. How about a forum limited to people whose credidentials and experience are verified? It'd keep out the riff-raf and encourage decent discussion for people more interested in reading and learning ( like me) than flitering out nonsense..

Just my opinion,

Mike Johnson

Because then E-Budo would go away. For one, you'd have to 86 the Combatives board. Not many with any experience to speak of there, just a handful - most that dont post very much. Lots of opinions and credentials, and some dark hints of hard bitten pasts, though.

And how do we measure the difference between credentials and experiences, and what people may or may not have learned from either, and in which cases it actually matters?

Thing is, a number of folks with very respectable credentials, and that are probably very good martial artists, really don't have the experience to know what they are talking about when it comes to applying their art outside the dojo - or even inside the dojo in a truly realistic sense.

Does that mean they don't have valid opinions, or good ideas? No. It just means we all have to be a little more discerning when accepting an allegedly expert opinion. Remember pretty much NONE of us knows anything about the others except what we have written about ourselves. Considering how people see things differently, rationalize, lie, or are outright nutcases that live in a different reality, we all should take each other with a major grain of salt.

Kit LeBlanc

Cady Goldfield
6th June 2003, 21:30
I think I'm going to go over to Neurosurgery.com and debate the finer points of surgical technique there. What the heck, I completed all my graduate credits (except for thesis) in biology. That should put me up there on par with the brain surgeons on the forum who have been in their science and art for 20 or 30 years...

[MINUTES LATER]

Darn. What a bust Neurosurgery.com was! When I got there, I found out that all the great brain surgeons with 20-30 years experience had quit the forum. They were sick of reading posts on neurosurgery methods that were written by EMTs and Red Cross First Aid instructors. And, I was told, the bonafide, experienced surgeons were also tired of having to deal with insults from anonymous posters who thought that their experience in splinter removal and bandaging qualified them to comment on neurosurgical method and practice.

:rolleyes:

Walker
7th June 2003, 07:11
Return to the first post of this thread, read it and see if you think it was worth the thread that resulted.

Take this information and apply to the next such question.

Rinse and repeat.

O'Neill
7th June 2003, 16:21
I think that my original question was a valid one. It did drift off though. I will however keep my posts focused on the original topic from now on- but as I said I was just questioning how many braches practice against modern attacks- not a silly or stupid thing to ask.

chris davis 200
7th June 2003, 19:29
I am not going to get into the silly - 'i know more than you' debate, the fact is that i come here to learn about other peoples opinions and experiences and not to prove my worth to a bunch of people i dont know and probably never will!

back to the topic!


How do you modify even basic Kata to get there? Which vectors work which do not?What methods of Aiki can and do work? What is best left at the dojo? And your answer is based on what? Fighting Whom?

this is the attitude of the person that does not understand the principle of learning a martial art in the way that we do in daito ryu. (not directed at the poster)

Ok. We learn kata, anyone ever thought - why is it that we learn this outdated attacking method? etc etc? Do you really think that the kata of an art such as Daito ryu are designed to help you defend against every situation that will arise? Of course not.

the perpose of leaning in this way is to get the principles. Of movement, of force vectors, of many things.

The sheer number of techniques mierly means that the practitioner has these principles engrained into their fighting ability. these principles are the essence of the techniques.

So you do not have to modify kata, you do not have to 'throw out kata' that are deamed useless today, you do not have define different aiki. You just have to understand the essence of movement and principle. Once you have this you have the answer to every attack.

If we look at an art like Chinese Hsing I you will find that it is based on 5 principles (elements) and from these five principles almost limitless techniques emerge.

the japanese arts teach things slightly differently, by engraining certain movements into you throught constant repitition of certain kata you get the same result, a fighter that works on principles not techniques.

Once you understand that force coming this way or that can be countered this way or that, then you no longer fear any attack or 'style' of fighter.

People who think the kata alone are enough, and do not look deeper at what they are doing are diluding themselves.

Cheers
chris

wagnerphysed
7th June 2003, 20:02
Props to Dan.

Sam 17, I wonder, have you heard from MAH latley?:cool:

Mike B. Johnson
8th June 2003, 00:12
Mr LeBlanc,

I think you misunderstood my suggestion. I'm not saying that all the boards should only be open to people with specific qualifications. I'm suggesting that maybe one specific board be open to a selected individuals with advanced experience. John Lindsey would ultimately be the arbiter of who was qualified. He could make access to this thread an invitation only affair. Think about it. We could have qualified people like Meik Skoss, Professor Bodiford, Ellis Amdur, Toby Threadgill, Nathan Scott Karl Friday, Chuck Clark etc... discussing quality topics without the interference of the goober fringe. Maybe someone like Nathan Scott could moderate by taking questions from the broader membership and then posting selected questions he thought would be interesting to the more serious readership.

If I remember correctly somebody that caused great frustration here was some dummy who constantly attacked peoples opinions or qualifications and then wouldn't divulge what he studiied or who he studied with. That sort of BS resulted in the exodus of some of the more qualified among us.

Would this new thread guarantee that everything these individuals posted would be the flawless gospel? Of course not. Nobody's perfect. It would however be a forum of the opinions of those whose experiernce level deserves to be heard and considered without distraction. It would be up to us the readers to evaluate these opinions and give them the weight we think they deserve.

Imagine being Professor Bodiford and trying to respond to a decent question from a serious practitioner while at the same time being harrassed on the same thread by some 16 year old whose most formative martial experience is at the end of a computer joystick. It spoils the e-budo experience for all of us and ultimately degrades the level quality information available here.

Please consider this suggestion Mr Lindsey.

Mike Johnson

P Goldsbury
8th June 2003, 04:23
Mr Johnson,

I have great sympathy for the views espoused by Dan Harden and Brently Keen. I think training in the martial arts is really a solitary activity and it is very difficult to discuss such personal matters with people whose general demeanor indicates that they have have not gone through similar experiences--other than to answer simple questions. Japanese martial arts are vertically structured and begin and end with rei. With those who do not know this, the more experienced can either attempt to teach, or to wait until they acquire this essential knowledge. I think silence is preferable to attempts at communication which serve no purpose other than to gratify one's ego.

However, my experience has been that a forum restricted to those who have to pass some sort of test does not really work in a general discussion forum, which is geared to the lowest common denominator, i.e., minimal experience compounded by minimal intelligence. Over in AikiWeb, Jun Akiyama opened a forum restricted to those with 20 years or plus continuous experience in aikido. It has not worked, first because it is difficult to police the 20-year rule and secondly because there is no possibility of discussion. Now Aikiweb is an aikido bulletin board, but E-Budo covers a much wider spectrum of martial arts.

There is another dedicated aikido forum and that is Aikido Journal, run by Stanley Pranin. I think Stan runs the forum as a complement to the vast archive of scholarly articles and interviews he has accumulated over the years. I myself used this archive long before even looking at the discussion forum, which like E-Budo has its fair share of people of whom you wonder quite what planet they are on, or think they are on. The general rule there, also, seems to be that quality finds its own level.

Actually, the same aikido and DRAJJ people I meet here, whose views I respect, also post there from time to time. It was very good to meet many of these people at Stan's Aiki Expo last year and to see that their demeanor in these forums and on the tatami is exactly the same. An added bonus of forums such as this is the large amount of private correspondence that develops as a result.

Best regards,

Walker
8th June 2003, 07:05
Originally posted by P Goldsbury
Actually, the same aikido and DRAJJ people I meet here, whose views I respect, also post there from time to time. It was very good to meet many of these people at Stan's Aiki Expo last year and to see that their demeanor in these forums and on the tatami is exactly the same. An added bonus of forums such as this is the large amount of private correspondence that develops as a result.I must say in this regard, that my life has been immeasurably enriched by relationships that are a direct result of e-budo.

All together now! “It’s a small world after all!”

Um, anybody....

Ok, I’ll just say thanks for the board and don’t screw it up.

chris davis 200
8th June 2003, 11:19
I agree and simpathise with alot of what people are saying.

Shall we get back to the thread? :rolleyes:

:)

Brently Keen
8th June 2003, 17:50
Chris,

That was a good post on page three. I agree completely. I was going to drop out of this thread after my last post, but you you raised some interesting points - that I'd like to expand on.

First I think it should be noted that not all Daito-ryu groups practice "kata". However, the purpose of the training method and the techniques that are used in training is still the same - to teach principles.

When Sokaku Takeda taught kenjutsu in his earlier days he taught traditional Ono-ha Itto-ryu kenjutsu - however, his own swordwork was highly original and un-orthodox by most accounts. I believe a basic tenet of Itto-ryu and perhaps most sword schools is 'knowing one thing - know ten-thousand things'.

I believe the goal of training in martial arts is to develop applicable skills (at least that's my goal), and I think this should be true whether one trains in kata geiko as some groups do, or in nagare geiko (as we do in the Roppokai). With styles that place emphasis on sparring and/or competition on the other hand - winning (or not losing) becomes the overwhelming concern and it tends to supercede the discovery and mastery of more advanced movements and principles. To do that you must rely on already established skills and knowledge, combined with luck (IOW your natural abilities and fate), and try to refine them while under duress. Good luck because you’ll need it! Typically that sort of approach results in a plateau in one’s growth or improvement rate – you can’t really progress much beyond your natural abilities.

Many people assume Daito-ryu (or other koryu) practice to be outdated, impractical, or unrealistic whether it consists of kata geiko or soft nagare geiko. Perhaps for many folks it is - but imho that is either because 1.) they do not apply themselves enough to realize the purpose and potential of the training, or 2.) they have not yet been intitiated into that level of transmission in the ryu, or 3.) possibly that level of transmission no longer exists in their school (or perhaps never did). Some people just lack patience and want instant results. If you can get results with your natural ability great – what do you need martial arts for?

For me, I’m training because I want to transcend my natural abilities and go beyond my innate potential towards what is exceptional.

When Sokaku taught Daito-ryu some folks apparently learned kata (hiden mokuroku, etc...), but many of the "kata" were actually standardized by some of his students or Tokimune Takeda. Among some of his senior-most students however,there appears to be a consensus that he Sokaku did not teach kata much if at all - instead he was known for teaching according to various situations, and for teaching applications (oyo), it's even been said by some of his students that he rarely taught the same technique twice - and at times became indignant if asked to show a particular technique again. By all accounts he was exceptional, was he not?

My own teacher does not teach kata. We still have many basic techniques and forms, but there are endless subtle variations, and he even says that each situation and attack is different - you can't realistically "repeat techniques", or do the same thing twice. To the casual observer, one might say he used the "same technique" to throw everyone in class, but to him each successive throw was slightly different in application. The idea is to learn the proper movements and principles, AND APPLY THEM appropriately to whatever particulars each situation presents.

Another characteristic of traditional kata training is that the senior student or instructor plays the role of attacker. As far as I know, this is not the "usual" in Daito-ryu (Sokaku's students seemed to recall that he always threw them), but in smaller situations, and in one on one instruction, my teacher would take ukemi from me and my students, teaching as uke as well as shite.

He even instructed me personally how to teach by taking the senior position as attacker, and he admonished me not to merely throw my students, but also to join them and take ukemi too. I then realized that many of my seniors had been taught to do the same before me. This was and is very traditional and very much like kata training imo.

But even in koryu kata geiko there is much variation in the kata. The form itself is strictly set and supposedly stays the same more or less over time. If done correctly, the sempai or sensei is usually 'defeated' in the kata, if the student breaks the form, or moves incorrectly a skilled instructor or senior will point out the suki often defeating the student. Once the form is learned, the instructor may or may not vary the timing or rhythm, the attack itself, or his responses, or even switch into another kata spontaneosly. Nagare or flow is introduced and also starts to develop.

Especially when training with weapons, this level of kata training ups the ante significantly. It's not exactly "freestyle" but it's quite unpredictable, and much more like real fighting, in that it introduces other factors like surprise or O.S.S. (Oh S#!t Syndrome), and other variables. It also has a peculiar way of inculcating extra experience/knowledge into one's training. It's how so much stuff is transmitted in the koryu beyond mere techniques and forms. Stuff that allows or even facilitates the development of seemingly super-natural abilities, I don’t mean “supernatural” as in “magical” or “god-like” but rather, abilities that are beyond what is normal or natural for most people.

Do DR groups practice against rapid strikes, kicks and combinations?

I know that some do - but does it really matter if those who merely engage in kata, or nagare geigo consisting primarily of grabs are also able to grasp the essential principles and basic movements, and progress beyond their “natural” abilities to higher levels of skill?

I agree with Chris, it doesn't matter if you have "it". By "it" I do not mean “natural abilities”, but rather those additional skills and abilities that are transmitted via the ryu. Once those movements and principles are engrained into your own awareness and fighting ability, solutions are available for any attack. It doesn't matter if you've seen it a thousand times in practice or have never seen it before. The skills and attributes you've inculcated into your body's consciousness through kata geiko or nagare geiko will provide the answer.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

Brently Keen
9th June 2003, 06:06
Above I wrote:

"It's how so much stuff is transmitted in the koryu beyond mere techniques and forms. Stuff that allows or even facilitates the development of seemingly super-natural abilities, I don’t mean “supernatural” as in “magical” or “god-like” but rather, abilities that are beyond what is normal or natural for most people."

I knew "super-natural" wasn't what I wanted to say - the right word would've been "extraordinary" as in above and beyond the ordinary. That expresses more clearly what I was trying to say.

Brently Keen

Sam17
9th June 2003, 22:39
Agreed! I think I’m going to have to rethink the way I write my posts. If I say it, it gets a completely different response than if Chris says it. Go figure!

Nathan Scott
10th June 2003, 01:50
Quite a thread we have here. I have to agree with the complaints that have been voiced.

As far as Daito ryu goes - the most popular art discussed here in this forum - it is worth taking note of the backgrounds of those that contribute the most about DR technical matters.

For example, how many of them are currently members in good standing in an orthodox DR branch, directly under a fully licensed instructor? How many have Kyoju Dairi, or even the Hiden Mokuroku, or even nidan ranking, under such an instructor? I don't post this with the intention of pissing off the various valued contributors to this forum, but rather too objectively point out that there are not any highly qualified orthodox DR exponents representing their branch on the net, unlike in many other arts being discussed on the net. This is worth taking into consideration when reading and discussing technical matters on the net, or what "DR does or doesn't do".

For this and other reasons, I try to focus on historical matters or current situations rather than on technical matters in an attempt to avoid adding to the mass of misinformation about DR on the net. All questions are reasonable to ask, but all opinions are not of equal value, and there is no highly qualified authority on the net talking about DR. That is not to say that some of our contributors do not have experience, or maybe even substantial experience, training in some form or Daito ryu. Just that there is a difference between beginning a training relationship with an instructor and being initiated into the higher levels of the art. No disrespect intended towards anyone!

Regards,

A. M. Jauregui
11th June 2003, 13:44
Originally posted by O'Neill
Do any of the daito ryu groups in japan address fast realistic punch/kick combos? I only ever see the defenses against yokomenuchi and shomenuchi? I have heard that the group run by Kiyama sensei does? Maybe they are not interested in the combative aspects of the art as Japan is so nonviolent compared to the U.S.


Originally posted by O'Neill
I agree that kata are patterns that are most useful and divulge much info to those willing to train for years but I was wondering how the daito ryu practitioner deals with powerful combinations from a good fighter, are things like this addressed in a mainline dojo (just an example) or does one discover them during ones own practice outside of daito ryu. I heard that the daibukan of ohgami sensei work against these attacks quite a bit.

Quotes like those above were asked. Here is my simple direct answer.

You want to fight boxers with aiki based arts... Easy grab the collar bone on the same side as the shoulder they are going to throw the punch with - timing (it is possible). Really dig your hand in there and pull. Yokomen style strike to the other collar bone. Side your hands, which should be in relatively the location, for an appropriate hip throw... Breaking a collar bone (or both) is enough to stop most everyone.

Aiki based arts work best against linear styles of karate. They just do...
Straight punches (low, mid, high) - Enter in at a diagonal angle. Hand blade to the crook of their elbow before or after a chambered punch - strike and push to break their balance. From there you can do a number of things from complex to as simple as putting a leg along side their’s and giving a little nudge.
Round house punches (mid, high) - Both hand blades to the punching arm. Change the lower arm to a grip and pull as punch with the other hand. From there do as you like.
Straight kicks (mid, high) - Enter in slightly of their center line (inside or out). Hand blade to the underside of their leg - some people say grab I do not. Other hand blade to their eyes, nose, throat or open hand to their chin or throat.
Round house kicks (mid, high) - Enter in slightly of their center line (inside). Hand blade to the inside of their legs, hand blade to the opposite side of the leg at the knee joint. Side hands up with a slight spiral and preform a “nikyo” technique on their foot.

There are other things that one can do but I am in a hand blade mood today.

O'Neill
11th June 2003, 16:37
I don't think that my original post was daito ryu vs. boxing. I just wanted to know if modern self defense tactics were studied- against attacks one would see here in the U.S. I think that a few feathers were ruffled. Many thought that it was a dumb question, I don't see why- but I am willing to not pursue it any further. I will only ask certain questions from now and avoid anything pertaining to realistic self defense when discussing the aiki arts. I still enjoy training in aikido (though my views have changed). I do focus more on judo now after watching my judo partner (not even a sensei- nidan) wipe the floor with a senior grade in aikido (5th Dan).

This started my interest in daito ryu as an older more realistic (and complete) fighting art. In my view budo must remain martial, all the philosophy in the world doesn't help you if you are in a dangerous situation. People tend to hide behind their rank, philosophy, and other ideals. Don't get me wrong these are important but budo is martial and many lose focus on that. Look at someone like kimura sensei of judo fame- he'd be nearly impossible for anyone to beat- aiki secrets and all. So, I was just asking about modern fighting techniques as an attack against daito ryu (as a learning experience).
I guess it was a dumb thought as you must be one of the good ol' boys to discuss certain things.

Ron Tisdale
11th June 2003, 16:50
Hi Erin,

I'm not so sure you should feel so put down...perhaps it was more the phrasing of the question than anything else. And the level of some of the responses as well. Look at it this way, just think hard about the questions, search the board for prior answers, and if you still take some flak, try to learn something positive from the experience.

A little more on topic:
When Kondo Sensei demonstrates Ikkajo techniques at his seminars, he often ensures that his uke attack with the intent of using a judo technique (say, koshinage) to put him on the ground and finish with a choke. I'd say that is a "modern" attack, wouldn't you?

As to a judo guy wiping up the floor with an aikido 5th dan...doesn't suprise me that much. I've been wiped up by judo guys myself. They're hard b*stards, aren't they? :) I wouldn't advise them to try it with an aikidoka who trained/trains in judo as well though...

Ron Tisdale

Neil Yamamoto
11th June 2003, 18:26
Daito Ryu's alright for fighting...

It’s getting late, where’s my dojo-mates
Sensei, tell me when the boys get here
It's seven o'clock, I wanna practice joint locks
After class we can go drink beer

My sensei gets drunker than a barrel full of monkeys
And my senpai, they don't care
The bartender looks cute in her braces and boots
A handful of grease in her hair

Don't give us none of your aggravation
We’ve had it with all these questions
Daito Ryu’s alright for fighting
If you slip some atemi in…


Ron's right, this really has been covered pretty throughly in the past, maybe that's why the response had been pretty negative.

CEB
11th June 2003, 18:40
Don’t know if Erin can still get this movie or not. Maybe Erin has already seen it. The movie called "Explosive Aikijujutsu" which features Icho Yama Ryu is pretty fun. I don’t know if it close enough to Daito Ryu to of interest or not. I really don’t know anything at all but, I liked the movie and I don’t like many MA movies. It had knives,shotguns and pistols, sticks, kicks, and punches. It had all kinds of attacking. Total modern attack package baby! I believe it even had Neil.

cguzik
11th June 2003, 19:11
Originally posted by O'Neill
I guess it was a dumb thought as you must be one of the good ol' boys to discuss certain things.

Erin,

You should get the credit for keeping a certain amount of discussion going on in these fora. You seem to start a good number of threads both here and in the Bugei forum. Some turn out good, some turn out ugly. But at least there's fresh content with some good questions coming from your end. I appreciate that.

Chris

Ron Tisdale
11th June 2003, 19:25
Oh no, Neil's channeling Tobs again! :)

Nice one Neil...

RT

A. M. Jauregui
11th June 2003, 21:20
*Sheepishly lowers her head down*

Sorry for all of the grammatical errors... The sad thing is that I minored in English.

Awesome post Neil, I think that I am going to like it here (E-Budo in general).


Originally posted by O'Neill
I don't think that my original post was daito ryu vs. boxing. I just wanted to know if modern self defense tactics were studied- against attacks one would see here in the U.S.

Others used boxing and karate as a base for techniques that some would use in modern urban combative situations. I fielded those question to the level that I choose to (limited motivation to provide a greater variations and examples)...

Because I do not care to answer at this time, I will end by simply stating that grapplers are generally more of a challenge then strikers.

Nathan Scott
11th June 2003, 23:04
Hi Erin,

I agree. Don't feel down about posting your questions. Some will inspire discussion, others may not.

My response to the previous thread was based on:

1) We were getting a great deal of noise, and not much signal to a question that is difficult to discuss anyway. I found many of the answers to be misleading, which is one reason I pointed out #2...

2) I figured it was time to offer a reminder as to what the realistic scope of such a forum is, and the reality of the qualifications/ level of initiation of many of our contributors. I figure pointing this out may have pissed a few of them off, but I've received a few props privately from others about it.

3) The problem with your question is two fold: one, the preference for some branches/teachers/students is going to be case by case. Some are in it for the preservation and/or development of the tradition. Some have a history or inclination towards modern day application and police instruction. But like any martial art, you are going to find random diversity regarding this subject. Two, it is often not until a student is deeply initiated into an art that they understand all the applications/reasons (riai), and develop the tools and understanding to know how to adapt the methods to modern day scenarios. Some teachers may discourage such experimentation until an appropriate level of iniation is reached, or, simply prefer not to discuss such teachings publicly.

In any event, if you are going to ask about how DR does things it would make sense to consider the level of initation in DR of the contributors, and understand that such preferences in training are going to be case-by-case anyway. I wasn't speaking out against your question, but rather trying to make certain points that I felt were relevant.

As to the subject at hand, I would point out that Kondo Sensei stated on his DVD that the more static performances of his techniques/kata are not realistic, but are sustained for the sake of the kata. He said that when applied, the techniques would flow more smoothly. Again, to me this type of comment regarding kata is rather common sense, but I figure Kondo Sensei was initiated fully into DR by his instructor, and is quite qualified to speak about how his line of DR performs techniques.

Regards,

Brently Keen
11th June 2003, 23:32
Ana Maria,

Please let me extend a warm welcome to e-budo. If you haven't done so already, you might want to spend some time browsing through the older threads here to familiarize yourself with some of the folks that frequent this board, as well as the subjects we've discussed.

Other than a brief reference to judo, I didn't find much about your training background in any of your other posts (forgive me if I missed something).

As all traditional Japanese budo begins and ends with rei, perhaps you wouldn't mind formally introducing yourself, and sharing what art(s) you've studied, and with whom etc...

I did notice your profile mentions Ono-ha Itto-ryu, are you currently studying Itto-ryu in California? If so, that would be the first I've heard about it being available on the West Coast.

Welcome aboard,

Brently Keen

A. M. Jauregui
11th June 2003, 23:48
No problem... I will introduce myself in another thread. It might me informative if all of you do the same. Nathan has the link under his name which provided more then I needed to know about him, most of you I have noticed do not do this. I Have disabled PM and email for I did notice that the vast majority of posters are male - I am not looking :) . Oh and I do not have a web site, cam, or anything in that vein.

Nathan did bring up an interesting point. Different posters do have a different level of knowledge in various martial arts. As one can deduce from my initial post on this thread I currently prefer rough and tumble to the... more aiki stuff - I am sure that this will change as I age.

P.S. Please, oh please call me Ana. I am so tempted to remove my middle name from my signature.

Brently Keen
11th June 2003, 23:57
Erin,

I tried to send you a PM yesterday, but your box was full.

To add to what Nathan said, don't be discouraged from asking questions and bringing up subjects for discussion.

I also agree that the answer(s) to this particular question about DR training for fighting will differ from different teachers, branches, practitioners. IOW, while I said yes, some of us do train for and against such modern realistic attacks - I've also heard members of other branches say DR's forms are strictly for studying classic (koryu) applications, and are of limited use in real fighting today. Now that might have reflected his teacher's opinion, or his own - but it also might have simply reflected the level of his inititiation at the time, in that particular branch.

Regards,

Brently Keen

Brently Keen
12th June 2003, 05:15
Ana,

I respect your desire to keep personal information to a minimum on the internet as a (presumably) young lady amongst the many boys and men that frequent e-budo, I think that is prudent on your part. However, if you're going to post detailed technical answers to questions about classical arts like Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, some people might want to know what qualifies your answers that's all.

I think most people who frequently participate in these forums already know me personally, or are at least aquainted with me and my qualifications and background, but for those who are relatively new to e-budo, or are just too lazy to search through and read the older threads around here I offer the following:

I have been training in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu for 11 years now. Before that, I was born almost 37 years ago in Santa Cruz, CA where I grew up. In addition to martial arts, I like to surf, ski, hike, play guitar, write and record music.

I also wrestled for 7 years in both collegiate style and international freestyle competition. A few years after that I started my martial arts career @ North Bay Aikido under Glen Kimoto and Linda Holiday (both 5th dan). From there I was exposed to many other skilled teachers from Japan and the USA.

In 1992 I moved to Japan shortly after being invited by Don Angier to participate in a special two-day seminar with Seigo Okamoto, headmaster of the Roppokai branch of Daito-ryu. Needless to say I was very impressed. At that time, my aikido had already become very influenced by Don's teaching, since I had been going to most of his seminars in Northern CA for several years, and was training six days a week in both aikido and Hakko-ryu Jujutsu under Julio Toribio (menkyo kaiden san dai kichu).

In Japan, I joined the Roppokai branch of Daito-ryu, and became a direct student of Okamoto sensei. While living there, I also visited other dojos and trained with many skilled instructors and practitioners from a variety of styles. I also taught English, and coached a successful wrestling team (including 2 Far East Asia undefeated champs).

When I returned to CA, Okamoto sensei urged me to start the Santa Cruz Roppokai, and so I became the the Roppokai Western USA Shibu-cho, and I actively promoted Daito-ryu AJJ and introduced many people in the USA, Canada, and Mexico to Okamoto sensei, and the Roppokai branch of Daito-ryu until I moved to Colorado in 1999. As director of the Santa Cruz Roppokai, I taught and practiced DRAJJ Roppokai as I'd learned it from Okamoto sensei, and actively promoted DR first on rec.martialarts; and then here at e-budo (pre and post crash), as well as over at aikidojournal and swordforumbugei.

With Okamoto sensei's blessing, I produced two sets of instructional videos (95 & 96 Santa Cruz Seminars featuring Okamoto sensei). I also introduced many people personally to Okamoto sensei, and the Roppokai branch of Daito-ryu in the USA, Canada and Mexico (some of whom now even out-rank me). When I moved to Colorado the Santa Cruz Roppokai dojo continued for awhile under the direction of my senior student, but went into hiatus in 2000 when he returned to Mexico. Eventually I do hope to return to Santa Cruz, but I've no idea now when I'll be able to do that.

Since moving here to Colorado Springs I've been quite busy with work priorities, and personal obligations, and so my training has had to continue privately and informally with just a few people. Apart from continuing my presence on these boards, and occasionally participating in seminars or visiting other dojos to train with other stylists, I've not been actively involved with the Roppokai here (in CO), because I can't give my full attention to teaching, or running a dojo, much less hosting Okamoto sensei for annual seminars.

However, I'm hoping that will change significantly this summer - and if so, I'll be sure to announce that here.

In addition to all that, and cross-training in various arts, I have also been contracted at times for security work and personal protection.

I'm normally not one to toot my own horn regarding my experience or qualifications, but when asked, I'm not going to beat around the bush either.

Regards,

Brently Keen

A. M. Jauregui
12th June 2003, 06:21
Thank you for your more thorough then mine answer. I set up a thread separate from this one to introduce myself:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19668

Please have a look at it and feel free to ask additional questions - I will try to answer them the best that I am able too.

Too bad you are not in Santa Cruz any longer, I am going up there for a friend’s graduation and would not mind seeing other aikijujutsu branches if I am able to find a moments rest *from all of the festivities*.

What is this “(presumably) young lady“ business? I bet that you want me to post a picture, not going to happen. :p

[added link to "introduction" thread. NS]

Cady Goldfield
12th June 2003, 15:28
Originally posted by A.M. Jauregui
What is this “(presumably) young lady“ business? I bet that you want me to post a picture, not going to happen. :p

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That's the first time I've seen Brently lay out his life story on E-Budo (at a length comparable to his usual E-Budo posts), so you've obviously made an impression.

Cady Goldfield
12th June 2003, 20:38
1. Daito-ryu for fighting. An art can provide principles for technique, strategy and combat tactics, but if the practioner doesn't have the stomach for violence, he/she will not be able to use any of it for "fighting."

Conversely, IMO, an art with limited repertoire. in the hands of a person with the mindset for its "assertive" application, and the ability to adapt and modify to suit individual needs and circumstances, will be able to make pretty much any system work for him/her. The frustration factor kicks in when the guy can't make something work for him, and he either discards what doesn't work and replaces it with something that does, or he finds a way to tweak what he was taught into something that is effective for him.

To my eyes, DR has been just as subject to "re-invention" over the decades as any other art of its period. The principles may be there, but over time, whoever is inheriting and teaching the various branches of the ryu is going to be instilling his particular philosophies and quirks into the way that those principles are tuaght and practiced. So, you get some folks who will rely on ritualized exercises and forms, without any realistic application, and you will get people whose temperaments lead them to seek approaches that more closely simulate "practical application" and instill the instincts and actions that drive its effectiveness in that arena.

So, I don't believe you can make a blanket statement that "Daito-ryu is good for fighting" or DR is not good for fighting." The ryu itself was designed to be destructive and lethal, but that doesn't mean that many (or even most) its modernday exponents practice it that way. However, there are those who do. And believe me, they make DR very, very effective as a combat application.

Desmond
13th June 2003, 23:43
Originally posted by Brently Keen
Ana,

Since moving here to Colorado Springs I've been quite busy with work priorities, and personal obligations, and so my training has had to continue privately and informally with just a few people. Apart from continuing my presence on these boards, and occasionally participating in seminars or visiting other dojos to train with other stylists, I've not been actively involved with the Roppokai here (in CO), because I can't give my full attention to teaching, or running a dojo, much less hosting Okamoto sensei for annual seminars.

However, I'm hoping that will change significantly this summer - and if so, I'll be sure to announce that here.

Brently Keen

Brently

I find your writings interesting and I look forward to reading the book I'm sure your writing. As the Western States Shibu-cho for Roppokai Daitoryu I feel compelled to ask you a couple of pointed questions. In what way are you involved with CO Roppokai. Are you demonstrating or presenting Roppokai in seminars or to other groups.

As you know there are only three people in America who represent Roppokai, Jose Lopez, Howard Popkin and me, Desmond Harpster. If Sensei chooses to have an open seminar we will be happy to announce it.

As you know I am for the most part a private person. I would not ask these questions of you on a public forum if it were not for several people approaching me with questions after seeing your postings.

Desmond Harpster

Brently Keen
14th June 2003, 17:42
Desmond,

Sorry for the misunderstanding, please let me clarify, what I posted above:

I've not been actively involved with the Roppokai here (in CO)...

There has not been any Colorado Roppokai activity, because a Colorado Roppokai has yet to be established. I have NOT been demonstrating, or teaching Roppokai at any seminars or other dojos. The reason being, as I indicated before, my work and personal obligations over the last several years have not allowed me to be actively involved with any official Roppokai activity.

I have however, personally continued to train and practice to the degree that I've been able to, and obviously such practice has been limited to informal private practice (because I've not had a dojo or sought sanction from Sensei to open a dojo here).

I simply pointed out that my personal practice has included, as I indicated above, attending and participating in seminars and classes with instructors and practitioners of other styles.

I mentioned that point only because it was pertinent to the subject of this and the other thread which had to do with training for attacks from other styles.

Obviously, whenever I attend such seminars and/or classes, something other than Daito-ryu Roppokai was being presented by someone else - I have not been teaching or demonstrating in such cases, as I think that would be inappropriate.

Let me also be clear for the record, that when asked, I have also acknowledged the above mentioned three individuals (Desmond Harpster, Jose Lopez, and Howard Popkins) as being the official Roppokai representatives in the USA at this time.

I also recommend that anyone interested in Daito-ryu Roppokai in their respective areas please seek them out, as I know them all to be great guys, as well as knowledgable and skilled in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu.

I apologize for any confusion or misunderstandings in this regard.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

Brently Keen
14th June 2003, 19:24
Ana, Cady, and any other ladies,

All joking aside, you gals (young, and not so young) can all relax - I am definitely not looking - I already have someone special that I am very much committed too.

The information I posted about myself has more or less been available before in bits and pieces. I put it together because I occasionally receive PM also asking about my background, it seemed to be easier if I just posted a partial summary.

As for DR being applicable for fighting, I largely agree with what Cady said just prior to Desmonds post.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

Desmond
16th June 2003, 06:30
Brently,

Just before I launched out of the house for the weekend I checked the board, read your message and thought I sent a reply thanking you for your response. I don't see it now so let me say again thank you for your quick response in clarifying the situation.

Good luck and good life to you

Desmond Harpster