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O'Neill
3rd June 2003, 21:53
Are there other forms of Aikijujutsu now? I realize that daito ryu was the first but now that I heard that the hakuhokai may be calling themselves hakuho ryu and then there is the yanagi ryu- maybe daito ryu isn't the only aikijujutsu anymore. Have any of the daito ryu groups broken off and formed their own styles, afterall Takeda sensei did have 30,000 students.

O'Neill
3rd June 2003, 21:56
What is that arrow by my post? Just curious?

Ron Tisdale
3rd June 2003, 21:57
go to first new post...
RT

O'Neill
3rd June 2003, 21:58
Did i accidently place that there- no big deal just need to know if I am making a mistake while posting.

Ron Tisdale
3rd June 2003, 22:04
Just go to the main page, look at the top left corner...click on the see new posts text...each thread on the page will have this link. Any link still marked by the system as containing a new post will have this. Your cookies determine which threads have new posts...

RT

D.Kaiser
4th June 2003, 14:53
Aikido could be considered an off shoot of Daito Ryu. Except for Hakko-Ryu and Yanagi-Ryu and the various other Daito Ryu groups I dont think there is really any other systems directly related to or comming from Daito-Ryu.

Mike B. Johnson
4th June 2003, 16:31
Hello,

I believe Hakko Ryu is definitely an offshoot of Daito Ryu. There's no doubt about that. It's founder was a longtime student of Sokaku Takeda.

Claiming Yanagi Ryu as an offshoot is kinda difficult . It seems that Yanagi Ryu's use of the term aiki predates Sokaku Takeda's use of the term Aikijujutsu. I have seen a photo of Yoshida Kenji in front of a tokonoma with a makimono hanging behind him that clearly says "Yanagi Ryu Aiki Bugei" During a e-mail discussion with someone familiar with this subject it was reiterated that Don Angier says Yanagi Ryu and Daito Ryu are completely different arts of different origin. However I have heard that Mr Pranin over at Aikido Journal states that he has seen old footage of Sensei Angier performing several Daito Ryu kata back in the 1950's. So there must have been some influence on Yanagi Ryu from Daito Ryu as Yoshida Kotaro was obviously extensively trained in both schools. This still doesn't make Yanagi Ryu an offshoot however.

Aikido is also definitely an offshoot of Daito Ryu although some Daito Ryu hairsplitters will claim Aikido a completely different art.

I don't get all the hype over Aikijujutsu anyway. I've felt Jujutsu and Tai Chi just as soft and subtle as Daito Ryu (roppokai and mainline). On several ocassions I found the jujutsu and Tai Chi much more practical. I would have loved to have felt Don Angiers Yanagi Ryu because one top notch kickboxer I highly respect (Dave Slocum) has told me Angier Sensei was fantastic. Sadly I hear after a heart attack and stroke Don Angier's technical abilities are not nearly what they were when he was in his late 50's.

Mike.

O'Neill
4th June 2003, 19:05
Hearing that Angier sensei was doing daito ryu kata back in the 50's is most interesting, maybe Mr. Pranin can elaborate on this. Does yanagi ryu include these daito ryu kata?

Richard Elias
4th June 2003, 21:34
Just a little clarification…

The picture of young Kenji in front of the scroll was taken sometime in the mid-nineteen twenties, so it does not predate Takeda’s use of the term. At this point there is nothing concrete to indicate when the term began being used by the Yoshida family in connection with their art(s).

The kata Stan Pranin was referring to were not the standardized kata of Daito ryu. That is he was not performing Dato ryu kata, he was performing Yanagi ryu vertions of the same techniques as those in Daito ryu. As such he was saying that Angier sensei was probably the first person performing such techniques in the USA.
I was present at the viewing.

There is most definitely a connection between the two arts, history proves that. And I believe that there has been a distinct influence from Daito ryu. But, I would also have to agree that they must have different origins as there is much in the arts passed on by Yoshida Kotaro that has not ever been included in what is known to have been taught as a part of Daito ryu.

Additionally, I would also have to say that the decline in Angier sensei’s technical ability is greatly overstated.


Mike,

How’s Dave doing? You still in contact with him?

YuSanHapki
4th June 2003, 23:14
Originally posted by Richard Elias
Additionally, I would also have to say that the decline in Angier sensei’s technical ability is greatly overstated.

Having witnessed and felt Angier sensei's technical ability as recently as this past weekend, I can wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Had Angier sensei not gone on at length (and with sharp wit and disstain) about the nonexistence of Ki in his technique, I would have said that his technique was pure magic.


-------------
Jody Dawkins
Las Vegas, NV

Mike B. Johnson
5th June 2003, 00:12
Hello Mr Elias,

We actually met many years ago at an Aikido seminar here in the bay area. I believe you were a student of Hendrick's / Aikido before you moved to LA and became a student of Angier Sensei.

Concerning Takeda and his adoption of the term Aikijujutsu. Didn't that happen in the mid-nineteen teens? It seems likely to me that if a Yanagi Ryu Aiki Bugei makimono is hanging in so formal a setting in the mid twenties, the family art must have been using the tern Aiki Bugei for many years already. If so, then Yanagi Ryu probably used the term Aiki Bugei before Takeda adopted the term Aikijujutsu only 10 years earlier. But none of this speculation really matters. Yanagi ryu and Daito ryu are obviously different traditions. They are obviously of different origins.

Its nice to hear that Angier Sensei's technical abilities have not waned as far as I had feared, although I admit I remain a bit skeptical about this. Isn't his age over 70 at this point? Over 70 with both a heart attack and stroke in recent years has had to take a toll on his technical abilities as compared to them while ihe was in his 50's.

I haven't seen Dave Slocum in many years. He was one hell of a tough fighter! He once told me that Don Angier in his prime was a very difficult proposition. If you have ever felt the sting of "Big" Dave's right hand and are familiar with the stature of Angier Sensei, you've got to appreciate this statement.

Nice talking to you again.

Mike

Richard Elias
5th June 2003, 01:53
Hey Mike,

Yep, that would be me.

I am sorry though, I can’t say that I remember meeting you.
I have been to so many seminars and met so many people...

I actually share your take on the Yoshida’s use of the term. I doubt Kotaro would have changed the name of his family’s tradition after only knowing Takeda for 5-10 years. But thus far there is no evidence, no documents, no “proof” to support that theory. That being the case I do not generally promote it publically.

Angier sensei just turned 70, last week. And though he may not be quite as agile as he used to be, he is still quite capable of very high level techniques. The ruff and tumble type jujutsu techniques are best left to the young anyway. True enough though, add twenty years to anyone and they are probably not going to be able to do some of the things they used to do.

Dave once said that he could rip through anyone in the dojo (I do not doubt him this in the least) but he would get stopped short by “that little old man”. I have personally seen Dave trying to hit Don over and over to no avail. And for those who don’t know, I would say that Dave is almost a full foot taller that Don, and has hands the size of hams. Big as a bear, but also a prince among men.

Walker
5th June 2003, 07:20
Originally posted by O'Neill
Hearing that Angier sensei was doing daito ryu kata back in the 50's is most interesting, maybe Mr. Pranin can elaborate on this. Does yanagi ryu include these daito ryu kata? See? This is the kind of misunderstanding foolish questions generate.

O'Neill
5th June 2003, 16:22
Which foolish question? I found it interesting, there was no doubt or problem there- perhaps you see one where there is none>

Walker
5th June 2003, 19:16
Originally posted by O'Neill
Are there other forms of Aikijujutsu now?
Obviously you read the board because you have responded, but how could you read the board and not know the answer to your own question?