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View Full Version : Anyone read Barefoot Zen



Bungle
4th June 2003, 21:45
Hi
I recently read barefoot zen. It seems pretty controversial and still quite convincing at the same time. I'd like to know what you guys think of his interpretation. It kinda discredits shaolin kung fu as taught today. Can any of you guys discredit what he says?

It's not that i hate him or anything. I'm wondering whether to train with him or with the shaolin temple UK. They teach different things so a comparrison is no good. I'm really after some opinions on the matter to help me decide on the truth.

Thanks for any help

CEB
4th June 2003, 22:15
Does the book say who his karate teachers were/are ? I would like to know. I watched the videos on the web site and saw somethings that confuse me. I saw no mention of direct lineage on the web page.

Thanks

Bungle
5th June 2003, 08:33
Thanks for the reply. He discovered these things with a research team from a university apprently. I'm not sure who his original teacher was. 'm gonna re read his book and see what info i can extract from the book. Most of it was opinion. They looked at the the two jewels of goju and one white crane set from kung fu. He reckons that these foundatonal sets can only be used as grappling sets and that they are in line with buddhism so would probaly be the original art from the temple. I'll let you know what i can get from the book.

Goju-Ryu
5th June 2003, 13:18
Hi!

"They looked at the two jewels of goju..."

What do you mean with two jewels of goju? Sanchin and Tensho? :D

Bungle
5th June 2003, 14:02
sanchin and naifuachin

CEB
5th June 2003, 14:47
They teach 3 kata according to the web site.
1) Sanchin
2) Naifuachin
3) Rokushu

Their Sanchin looked like Goju Sanchin with bad posture. But then I realized they are mixing two methods. They must have learned the Goju version of Sanchin but are trying to bring the shoulders forward like the Uechi Ryu guys do, this confused me at first.

What they call Rokushu is Tensho. I wish they wouldn’t call it Rokushu. They seem to be trying to back engineer the thing into something that seems more Chinese so may be that is why the name change seemed appropriate. But there is a Rokkishu exercise that does exist and Rokkishu is not Tensho. What they are doing is Tensho. The 2 man application for their Tensho they show is similar to a lot of stuff I have done. There are 6 exercises Kimo Sensei call kigihowa or higihowa (don’t have any idea on how to spell this) I do the first one. This looks a lot like what the barefeet zen people are doing in the video. Our 2 man Tensho form is also similar in nature.

Naifauchin is not Goju Ryu but many Goju people teach it. I do. The Naihanchi stuff was interesting. I think a little more atemi would make those grappling apps work a little easier though. They may be really good guys to train with. It mostly depends on what you want out of your training. What they are doing isn’t necessarily unique. They just appear to be specializing in one particular piece of the art. I would be interested to find out who their Goju teachers were to see if they had any exposure to any of the old school teachings. My guess is the barefeet stuff was developed through personal research. I have no problem with that at all. It may be fun.

taichi4eva
6th June 2003, 06:05
I bought the book, but returned it after I realized how the author made Karate look like a New Age Science. The whole thing about the symbolism found in Sanchin really confused me...I mean, what does the Hindu god Shiva have to do with Sanchin?

The only thing I liked about this book was the Naifuanchin part. I'm a little skeptical about the applications, but the theory is all very good.

Speaking of which, are Sanchin, Rokkishu (Tensho), and Naifuanchin the original Okinawan Karate kata?

Bungle
6th June 2003, 09:41
what did you think of his theory on the shaolin temple? it makes sense, seems more in line with buddhism. It kinda discredits the shaolin kung fu currently taught though and for me, he doesn't give enough evidence to discredit current knowledge and history concerning shaolin. Do you know anything about this? He does seem to concentrate more on karate which is a shame as he practically tears apart modern shaolin kung fu and doesn't give enough justification.

Saying that, his case for karate is very good, worth you reading goju.

CEB
6th June 2003, 13:25
Rokkishu is an exercise from the To'on Ryu which is basically the up down side to side movements you see in Tensho. ( I'm told the fish tail exercise from Uechi Ryu may be similiar. I'll ask sensei next time I see him. He has a yondan grade from Uechi Ryu.) Rokkishu isn't consider one of the six kata of the To'on Ryu.

Tensho is fairly modern. Miyagi created it. There maybe be some old influences at work but Tensho proper is new. The Happurin kata I do has a lot of Tensho's techniques. But Tensho is not Happurin either. One of the chapters in the Bubishi shows pictures the hands used in Tensho and one story was that Kyoda and Miyagi created there respective forms based on the book. I don't believe karate ever was Shaolin Kung Fu. I serious doubt you will ever find a Chinese style in China or Formosa that performs any of the kata found in Goju Ryu or any karate style.

I'm a small town karate guy. I don't know anything about Shaolin Kung Fu. I can't help you. I have trouble comprehending how a British karate man could know more about origins and purposes of the Shaolin than the abbots of the monstary who have inherieted the traditions.

The stuff they do may be good. If the waza they show on web site videos is the limit of type of techniques they are teaching then you are only getting a small piece of old goju technique. Historical accounts of old karate encounters seem to always include description of atemi. What they are doing looks like further evolution and not historical recreation to me. It depends on what you are looking for in your training.

Bungle
6th June 2003, 14:28
the guy is using fukien province white crane as an influence for one that has similar patterns. I think that is the link in the chain from shaolin to karate.