PDA

View Full Version : Study multiple martial arts, or just one?



Benjamin Peters
6th June 2003, 00:49
If we set aside the cultural/ritual of martial arts:

What is your opinion in practicing multiple martial arts simultaneously?

Do you believe in concentrating on one method, or finding your place in many?

Eric Baluja
6th June 2003, 11:58
Benjamin (if I may),

I assume you mean practicing several koryu simultaneously, since you've posted in the koryu forum. I don't practice different koryu, but I do know that there are various takes on the subject.

Ellis Amdur seems to think it's a shaky proposition, akin to being married to two wives and having two different families (see his essays in Koryu Bujutsu: Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan (http://koryu.com/store/book1.html) and Keiko Shokon (http://koryu.com/store/ks3.html)). Dave Lowry (who also expounds on the subject in Keiko Shokon (http://koryu.com/store/ks3.html)) seems to think that simultaneous study might not be recommendable but that you might be OK if taking up the study of another koryu after thoroughly learning one.

On the other hand, some of the other koryu "old hands" seems to have stuck their beaks in several ryu, if not simultaneously, at least within the same decade or so. The prime examples include Meik Skoss (Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, Shinto Muso-ryu, Toda-ha Buko-ryu), Phil Relnick (Katori Shinto-ryu, Shinto Muso-ryu), and Hunter Armstrong (Owari Kan-ryu, Yagyu Shinkage-ryu). I apologize to all the above sensei for taking their good names in vain.

In general, though, simultaneous study doesn't seem to be regarded as a great idea among those who know best (i.e., all those named above and maybe about 15-20 more).

Benjamin Peters
7th June 2003, 06:03
Originally posted by Eric Baluja
Benjamin (if I may),

I assume you mean practicing several koryu simultaneously, since you've posted in the koryu forum. I don't practice different koryu, but I do know that there are various takes on the subject.

Ellis Amdur seems to think it's a shaky proposition, akin to being married to two wives and having two different families (see his essays in Koryu Bujutsu: Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan (http://koryu.com/store/book1.html) and Keiko Shokon (http://koryu.com/store/ks3.html)). Dave Lowry (who also expounds on the subject in Keiko Shokon (http://koryu.com/store/ks3.html)) seems to think that simultaneous study might not be recommendable but that you might be OK if taking up the study of another koryu after thoroughly learning one.

On the other hand, some of the other koryu "old hands" seems to have stuck their beaks in several ryu, if not simultaneously, at least within the same decade or so. The prime examples include Meik Skoss (Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, Shinto Muso-ryu, Toda-ha Buko-ryu), Phil Relnick (Katori Shinto-ryu, Shinto Muso-ryu), and Hunter Armstrong (Owari Kan-ryu, Yagyu Shinkage-ryu). I apologize to all the above sensei for taking their good names in vain.

In general, though, simultaneous study doesn't seem to be regarded as a great idea among those who know best (i.e., all those named above and maybe about 15-20 more).

Eric,

Well, I guess that's what I'm getting at. Some are allowed some aren't, supposedly due to ritual/cultural aspects of the arts. More and more though I find myself quesitoning these aspects and looking toward the development of the indvidual as a practitioner. Each to their own. Thanks for the input.

Joel Simmons
7th June 2003, 14:52
Aloha,

From what I've learned about the Koryu, each particular ryu will have its own "style." Not just the culture/ritual of the martial art, but of its strategy and approach to manipulating the human body. If you practice two arts with very similar takes on these subjects, it might be okay. However, most people want to cross-train in other traditions to cover all aspects of the conflict. I.E. - Karate for punches and kicks, and Judo for throws and takedowns. Perhaps these two arts have more in common than most koryu, so let us use another example.

Aikido is not considered a koryu, but it is a very traditionally oriented art. My disclaimer is that I have never practiced Aikido, only been told about it by my Sensei who once practiced it. To continue, Aikido has a general strategy of not intentionally inflicting serious injury upon your opponent. It is very circular in movement and application, and these movements are generally stylized within the ideals of Zen Buddhism (they are meant to be beautiful as well as effective).

Compare this to Takeuchi-ryu. Takeuchi-ryu developed under extremely different circumstances and was utilized for very different reasons. The movements are not overly circular or stylized, they are quick, sharp and usually send the opponent down directly infront of you. Extreme pain and injury are the goals of almost all the techniques. The strategy and reasoning behind the art is much different from that of Aikido. The originators of Takeuchi-ryu did not care to allow their opponent to get-back-up, so they intended to severely injure that person.

I cannot compare any other koryu as I have no experience or in-depth knowledge of any other styles. However, I suspect that each particular ryu that developed under a particular daimyo or fiefdom obtained its own "flavor" depending on the favored local strategies and religious epiphanies. In my opinion, it would be very difficult for someone to try and apply two extremely different koryu strategies to the same situation. One ryu would demand reacting to the situation in one way, and the other ryu in another manner.

I suppose this is similar to the, "so, with which ultra-secret painfully effective magical fist do I strike my opponent?" that goes through the mind of someone who has trained 'just a little' in a lot of arts, and by the time they consciously choose their reaction, "crack" goes their nose.

kage110
9th June 2003, 12:06
In my opinion it might come down to why you practice the arts you choose. If your goal is mastery of one art or another then doing another art may well confuse the hell out of you. The manner in which you move your body may be radically different or, perhaps worse still, subtley differerent in the arts you study and the mental focus will not be the same. However if your goal is self mastery then it might well be worth trying many things at one time and certainly many things over the course of your life.

I am a relatively inexperienced martial artist but my approach is this: I have chosen Bujinkan Ninpo as my core art and I try and live my life around the principles of Ninpo but I realise that there are things that the Bujinkan will not teach me until I have been with them for many years, perhaps decades, if at all. However I know that these things are available through the study of Chi Kung, Yoga and the like so I study these too. I wish to become more agile so I am looking to try capoeira to see what that will do for me.

I try to do these other arts (and many other activities) with Ninpo in the back of my mind so that I am constantly enhancing my Ninpo ability. However, as I found out at my new Tai Chi class this weekend, the movements of TCC and Ninpo share many characteristics but are sufficiently different to make it obvious that I have 'hard wired' myself into a Ninpo way of moving rather than just moving in a natural manner.

Trying different arts can show you subtleties in your own and perhaps show you where you have developed a hole or blind spot.

Hope this helps...

Margaret Lo
13th June 2003, 19:36
[Ellis Amdur seems to think it's a shaky proposition, akin to being married to two wives and having two different families [/B]

Well polygamy was quite common in different societies around the world. My mate's grandfather had 3 wives, each with her own house and set of children.

Maybe the answer lies in the question: How much talent do you have? :)

kenanderson
17th June 2003, 04:23
I study several new and old schools of Japanese MA, and like to compare and contrast their different approaches. Even after almost two decades I still feel like a beginner, so I enjoy learning them simultaniously a great deal. On the streets I've used concepts from all of the different arts I've studied over the years - in a few cases they saved my skin. So I have no problem with studying more then one art.

Bruce Mitchell
17th June 2003, 05:40
This is a very interesting topic, and I am hoping that we get some of the senior practioners to chime in here.

What I have found to be acceptable is for practioners to train in a koryu and it's gendai equivalent. For example I study Tendo-ryu Naginatajustu and Atarashi Naginatado. The senior teachers of Tendo-ryu were largely responsible for the development of Atarashi nagainata, which is why I strive to do well in this art in spite of having a definate personal bias/preference towards Tendo-ryu. Likewise, it is my understanding that a number of senior teachers in many of the Koryu sword schools also hold high rank in Kendo (please someone correct me if I'm wrong here).

My understanding is that Kano Jigoro also required his senior students to study the Koryu, and frequently brought teachers to the Kodokan for this purpose (either that or he sent people off to train with other teachers).

It would seem to me that the most important element here is the sanction of one's teacher. Which is why you won't catch me picking up another art. I do believe that once you have committed to a teacher and an art, it should no longer be entirely up to you as the student, just as when you truly commit to any relationship in life. So if you have the oppurtunity then talk first to your teacher, then to the teacher of the art you wish to add on, and see what they have to say.

shaolin_ninja
18th June 2003, 11:28
If you do not want to post your name, then your posts will be deleted.

George Kohler

Soulend
18th June 2003, 19:23
Although a 'true ninja' never reveals his identity, you are required to do so by signing your full name at the end of every post, in accordance with E-Budo rule #1. The moderator of the ninpo forum has told you this already. As there never was such a thing as a shaolin ninja, I shall assume that this is not your real name ;)

elder999
18th June 2003, 21:33
Originally posted by Soulend
Although a 'true ninja' never reveals his identity, you are required to do so by signing your full name at the end of every post, in accordance with E-Budo rule #1. The moderator of the ninpo forum has told you this already. As there never was such a thing as a shaolin ninja, I shall assume that this is not your real name ;)


from shaolin_ninja's profileShaolinryu ninjatsu, TKD

Maybe it IS his real name.....:p

shaolin_ninja
19th June 2003, 06:26
If you do not want to post your name, then your posts will be deleted.

George Kohler

Steve Delaney
19th June 2003, 10:33
Oh be quiet and go back to lurking.

Soulend
19th June 2003, 21:42
:laugh: There's never a dull moment with ninjas around!

Chidokan
22nd June 2003, 20:22
I don't do two koryu, but kendo and iaido...looking back over the years at some of the more famous sword related sensei, they also seem to combine the two. Maybe its not such a bad idea if they are related disciplines..:smilejapa

Tim Hamilton

Shimura
23rd June 2003, 00:33
There really shouldn't be much of a problem of practicing two arts at once if they have a high degree of "mutual" applications and concepts. Take for example Aikido and Iaido or it's Koryu form as Iaijutsu Heiho. It's common knowledge that O sensei was fond of the sword arts (kendo etc.) and incorporated alot of the sword pricipals into his eventual formulation of Aikido. Therefore when practcing both in connection one can start to see and feel some of the parrallels and links between the arts. For example Shomen nuchi and kiri oroshi, or tenkan and holding the sword in chudan kamae. It's also common knowledge that in the old days samurai practiced various arts to "round themselves out". Any opinion on how they went about this without getting lost in the plethora of techniques and traditions? (I'm a little new, please go easy on me).

Gary MacMullen
Aikido of West Florida
SAKA Shotokan

alexikakos
6th July 2003, 02:15
I think the answer to your ask is yes and no.
Like the other mail, there are some individuals that learned two or more koryu ryugi, I, myself, learned three ryuha - but I'm not sure if Meik trainned all these koryu because he is one that desagreed with the study of more than one ryugi (he trainned Aikido), the same to Kim, and others koryu guys .
I spent 15 years trainning in Japan and now I'm a Shin Muso Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu Menkyo Kaiden, the third style I must abandone because it was impossible to learn three styles in the same period (Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Heiho).
And these ryu interfere in my trainning, I perform battojutsu kata in a bit closer way due Takenouchi Koshi no Mawari and I do my kumi uchi kata so quickly due my Shin Muso trainning.
This kind of trainning is acceptable but not ideal.
You must do two or more koryu but to perform an art in a clear and unppollut way you must learn just one of them.
Alexandre Prado

Usagi
7th July 2003, 04:14
Originally posted by alexikakos
I spent 15 years trainning in Japan and now I'm a Shin Muso Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu Menkyo Kaiden, the third style I must abandone because it was impossible to learn three styles in the same period (Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Heiho).
Alexandre Prado

Forgive me for intruding with an off topic, but where are you posting from?

For me is very nice to learn that a irmao brasileiro has such rankings in two very respected ryugi.

Who were your teachers and where in Brazil do you live?

Joel Simmons
8th July 2003, 03:10
Aloha,


I spent 15 years trainning in Japan and now I'm a Shin Muso Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu Menkyo Kaiden

Which branch of Takeuchi-ryu do you hold menkyo kaiden? At which dojo did you study? Please expand on this.

Martin Adil-Smi
8th July 2003, 13:27
Personally I train in two different schools of ju jitsu and in kickboxing.

One school of ju jistu is very traditional with a lot of focus on zen etc. The other school is a very street applicable style, which in itself is a hybrid and was only formed in 1990.

Kickboxing just helps with my CV levels, and is a good blast.

I used to dabble in Wu Shu Kwan, but my instructor had such a chip on his shoulder about me being a mixed martial art student that I eventually gave it up.

I find that all my training offsets each other. Kickboxing is very aggresive and about strength, whereas the ju jistu is more defensive and uses the other persons energy against them.

I have never accidentally started doing one kata from one school in another, but when we do randori/free spar I do have a lot of fun!! (the expression on a kickboxers face when you body drop them is equisite!) - still we're all friends at the end of it!

Just my take on it all.

Always the student...

Morph
10th July 2003, 06:58
Originally posted by kage110
In my opinion it might come down to why you practice the arts you choose. If your goal is mastery of one art or another then doing another art may well confuse the hell out of you. The manner in which you move your body may be radically different or, perhaps worse still, subtley differerent in the arts you study and the mental focus will not be the same. However if your goal is self mastery then it might well be worth trying many things at one time and certainly many things over the course of your life.

I am a relatively inexperienced martial artist but my approach is this: I have chosen Bujinkan Ninpo as my core art and I try and live my life around the principles of Ninpo but I realise that there are things that the Bujinkan will not teach me until I have been with them for many years, perhaps decades, if at all. However I know that these things are available through the study of Chi Kung, Yoga and the like so I study these too. I wish to become more agile so I am looking to try capoeira to see what that will do for me.

I try to do these other arts (and many other activities) with Ninpo in the back of my mind so that I am constantly enhancing my Ninpo ability. However, as I found out at my new Tai Chi class this weekend, the movements of TCC and Ninpo share many characteristics but are sufficiently different to make it obvious that I have 'hard wired' myself into a Ninpo way of moving rather than just moving in a natural manner.

Trying different arts can show you subtleties in your own and perhaps show you where you have developed a hole or blind spot.

Hope this helps...



I'd just like to ask what you think Bujinkan will not teach you?