koryu as national treasures

[Meik Skoss]

A number of ryu have been designated as prefectural or municipal "intangible cultural assets" (mukei bunkazai), but the Japanese government does not award such status. Any contrary claims are, to the best of my knowledge, simply spurious.

A number of martial arts persons, however, have been awarded various civil decorations (kunsho) in several classes. Two who come to mind are Shimizu Takaji and Otsuka Hironori I (I say that to distinguish him from his son, Jiro, who uses H. II as a "bumei" of sorts). Kano Jigoro got all sorts of honors, of course, as did Matsumae Shigeyoshi, Saimura Goro, and several other judo and kendo exponents. I suppose some karatedo and aikido people're in the mix somewhere.

But an entire ryu, by the national government? Nope, not unless they've changed the rules. I think I know who you're referring to; it would not be the first time he's, er..., ahh... "stretched" the truth.

[allan]

"Students at the school are aware that they share a unique and historical knowledge that must be sustained and passed on to future generations. In recognition of this the Japanese Government bestowed upon the school an accolade in the form of a name: 'An Intangible Cultural Asset.'"

--on the Katori Shinto Ryu from THE WAY OF THE WARRIOR, Howard Reid and Michael Croucher. Leopard Books, 1995. p. 120

Should this perhaps read "Prefectural Government" or something of the sort?

[hyaku]

The Kageryu was considering applying for Juyo Mukei Bunkazai some year ago. A professor at Kyushu University was the appointee who partialy investigated things. I don't know what particular office had appointed him but I could find out. I seem to remember it being the Bunka cho (Cultural Office). We can find them situated in most Kyoiku cho offices (Education) as they are closely linked

Everything has to fit in to place exactly with old documents and a very clean, clear unbroken line going back to the founder. Branches immediately fall under suspicion. Or anyone puporting to be branch can throw a spanner in the works too. a application must go through with no opposition whatsoever.

At Nihon Kobudo Kyokai Taikai it is often said that the fact the Kobudo is alive today is the fact that there are a few of us that still show the interest and are actually doing it. Not too much point in boasting about qualifications if you have a genuine group.

Hyakutake Colin

[P Goldsbury]

Originally posted by Yobina

In a previous meeting with the shihan, she told me that she can see people's auras and that she can judge a persons abilities by meeting them ONCE! She said that she is the highest qualified person in her art, even surpassing the current headmaster of the ryu! When I spoke Japanese to her she didn't understand a thing I was saying!

That brings me to another question - if someone were to train in a koryu in Japan for several years and attain the highest degree in that art, wouldn't that mean that they would at least be semi-conversant in Japanese? Is it possible to attain such a high level in the koryu without even an inkling of the language?

Ah, but Andrew, the shihan, being a Living National Treasure was obviously speaking the National Language, perhaps a variant of 'yamato-kotoba', and clearly believed that this language was unknown to foreigners. She probably did not even hear you.

JAL cabin staff do this all the time and they, too, think they are Living National Treasures.

Best,

[Tim Atkinson]

Andrew,

This wouldn't happen to be located in the South West of Sydney?

[glad2bhere]

Dear Colin:

".....At Nihon Kobudo Kyokai Taikai it is often said that the fact the Kobudo is alive today is the fact that there are a few of us that still show the interest and are actually doing it. Not too much point in boasting about qualifications if you have a genuine group....."

All the same, I would think that were such a designation available to practitioners that they would seek it out. I can't know what the actual curricular requirements might be, but simply being compelled to catalog them (were that a requirement)or structure the participants relative to each others status or contributions would be a service to others a few generations down the road.

For our part in the KMA there is no such stylistic designation that I know of, though specific individuals have been designated for their skills in Taek Kyon and in pottery. The Korean government is said to bestow a sort of recognition on various KMA organizations but noone, to my knowledge, has ever actually identified how this is accomplished or what it entails. The designation seems to turn-up in various bits of advertising as a sort of way of validating or authenticating the organization.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Walker]

I put her Jujutsu book in the hands of some practitioners here locally. One thing they immediately noticed was the “all purpose letter” that has appeared, with changes, in several different books on several different arts. They are reviewing the material.

Also of note: they seem to think there is only one Menkyo Kaiden in the system in question.

[Nathan Scott]

And then the ones she is far better than - Obata Toshishiro, Dennis Fink.

Man, one of these days I've got to get out to Australia. Ya'll are in need of some serious house keeping!

Regards,

[Tim Atkinson]

We only have a few koryu here in Australia, and a bad apple like this really stands out.

I am the first to support anyone's right to "do their own thing", but is shouldn't be at the expense of, or be miss-leading to, others.

The up side, is that such a poor example can only highlight the quality of those that have been slandered. :D

[Tim Atkinson]

The right teacher or kobudo will be in the last place that you look. But just think how you will feel when you find the right one!

[Tim Atkinson]

Empire building, that is what I call it. For what ever reason some people need to have the best or the largest or the most flashy or the ....

Here is evidence that it extends to the martials arts as well.

I just don't understand it. No, I should say I understand it, but I just don't subscribe to that line of thinking.

[Mekugi]

Explain exactly what is wrong with that? Does it say that she is accrediting other people in Koryu that she has nothing to do with? This is second hand info. I can talk to Ms. Harrington and get the goods on this if you want. I don't think she will have the same story as she is -involved- in what is going on and not an outsider looking in.


Originally posted by Yobina
By the way.

This teacher has had the National Coaching Accreditation passed for her school enabling all jujutsu (and koryu) schools who were floating in limbo (due to Walt Missingham's trying to control everything) to come under her school.

From her school's newsletter: ".......affiliated associate members from the Australian Kodokan Judo Assoc., and the Australian Ju jitsu (sic) assoc., bringing our total combined membership up to 6,000 strong. Our koryu system will be thrown open for all members, and associate members, to learn and become accredited in.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this contrary to what the koryu are about?

[Steve Delaney]

Andrew,

I just think that you have a grudge against Ms. Harrington. You tried this before a few months back in a long, long thread about how you didn't believe Jujutsu was used in combat.

All I remember was that you stated you went into several dojo (One of them was an Asayama Ichiden ryu dojo I believe) and you just wrote about them, bad mouthing their training methods and appearances.

You complained about being pissed off because Harrington wouldn't teach you SSR Jujutsu immediately. You also complained that the said instructor's Karate was being taught all of the time. There is a reason for this; It's a buffer for the main Koryu. It weeds out all of the people who don't have the patience to commit.

From what I have been told about the Karate style taught, it contains a lot of elements from SSR, mainly atemi.

I'm not a member of this school, but I have seen you mouth off before about this mate. Before you go off in a tangent, maybe you should contact the head of the ryuha instead and get all the info that way. :)

[Mekugi]

I agree with Steve.

You should know that Daishihan Shitama has a good opinion of Harrington Sensei; in the end that is the warp and woof of the matter.
-Russ

[Tim Atkinson]

Andrew,

I must be thinking about another group all togeather. They are located in south west Sydney and teach jujutsu and kenjutsu.

I was interested as they train periodically in armour.

However when I spoke to the wife of the head instructor (she also being an instructor) she was unable to tell me the name of the style which was taught.

I got a bit nervious about that, and as the training times clash with my current training I have been unable to establish first hand what the standard of training is.

[George Kohler]

Andrew,

Remember, treat your fellow E-Budo members with respect. Next time I will delete your post.

BTW, do you ever say anything positive?

[Mekugi]

Andrew,

I've said this before, koryu is not for everyone.

If you don't like the way that Harrington sensei does things, stay with Judo and books. You seem happy with that, so what's the problem? Are you angry with the world or what? That is certainly not the "Japanese way" to go about it.

Accordingly, you'll find that there are other Koryu out there that will teach you the "entire curriculum" and then, when you reach a certain level you find that you have to learn EVERYTHING all over again; that it was kihon that you were doing the entire time. SUPRISE!

-R

[glad2bhere]

There are times when my gut tells me that things have slipped over the edge into something particular to a specialize situation. Honestly, I don't know from Koryo but I am given to believe that it proceeds from a pretty structured approach to organization as it interfaces with the art. Maybe we are getting away from this. I really don't know that I want to be involved in some pissing contest about who is, or is not, doing right. I get enough of that the KMA.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Mekugi]

Huh? Intuit what?
I think I missed what you are trying to say here.

-Russ

Originally posted by glad2bhere
There are times when my gut tells me that things have slipped over the edge into something particular to a specialize situation. Honestly, I don't know from Koryo but I am given to believe that it proceeds from a pretty structured approach to organization as it interfaces with the art. Maybe we are getting away from this. I really don't know that I want to be involved in some pissing contest about who is, or is not, doing right. I get enough of that the KMA.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Steve Delaney]

Err, can someone tell me what the 4th rule is again?

And how did Andrew violate it? I've been away from the computer for a day, so I haven't been able to keep up with what's been going on.

[George Kohler]

Treat your fellow E-Budo members with respect

[Steve Delaney]

Oh OK.

What did he say BTW?

[George Kohler]

I would but your PM box is full.

[Steve Delaney]

Try it now George.

Many thanks.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Steve, Russ, et al:

The point I was working to make in my post was that perhaps

a.) The original intent of Andrews' string was not to honestly solicit information but simply to gather a forum before which he could bad-mouth somebody. Maybe-maybe not. I don't know. It just seems like it.

b.) In turn it seems that folks are more interested in this line of discussion than what might have deveolped had Andrews' querie not seemed so self-serving.

c.) I'm sorry things turned in this direction. I don't know what Andrew said, and maybe its not necessary for whoever moderates this particular string to disclose that. At least, I'm not interested.

In closing let me say that it seems to me that when these strings go off on some tangent the more things involve some pedestrian activity like name-calling, finger-pointing or fault-finding there never seems to be a loss for an audience. I get enough of that where I work. It would be refreshing if folks could come together and participate in an intelligent exchange of information that improves the overall quality of MA practice, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Tim Atkinson]

Guys,

What grabbed my attention was talk of koryu here in Sydney, Australia.

I tried to establish just what ryuha Andrew was speaking of. I miss understood his reply and was under the impression that we were talking another school all togeather. In the future I will double check.

Therefore, I would like to distance myself from Andrew's comments. I subscribe to this forum in order to better acquaint myself with the koryu which are out there and available here in Australia.

I therefore apologise to any and all who my have been offended by the tone of my latter postings.

All the best!:D

[Chidokan]

I would have thought you would have access to whatever koryu you fancy...its a damn sight nearer to Japan than most of us!!:D
One thing I do notice though, wherever in the world you go there are always "10th dans" after 3 years of training running their own schools along with people who are prepared to moan about anything..
A point which always seems to crop up on these boards is "where can I find a good dojo in..." Shows how bad we all are at advertising, maybe we should copy the 'superdan' adverts:D :D

Tim Hamilton

[Steve Delaney]

Tim,

Koryu, even in Japan is quite hard to find unless you know what you are looking for and know people that know what you're looking for :D


One thing I do notice though, wherever in the world you go there are always "10th dans" after 3 years of training running their own schools along with people who are prepared to moan about anything..

Erm, who are you talking about? And what do you mean by Superdan? The room's spinning all of a sudden I'm confused. You are not using a personal pronoun to define who you are talking about. (You don't know how Japanese that is)

[Chidokan]

have a look at some search engines for any particular MA you can think of and 'superdan' will be there with his 140+ dan grades...(none of which are real)...these adverts always seem to come out above the more serious websites.
I also come across people who complain that:
a)the nearest dojo/teacher is at least 5 minutes walk from their house and is too far to go,
b)the teacher doesnt spend enough time with them when they are at a class for an hour with forty others present,
and c) (the really annoying one) the seminar wasn't run properly and they would do it better. The fact that these people dont offer to help, or do a seminar when asked, rubs it in further.
Thats my pet hates off my chest!:D

Tim Hamilton

[Jock Armstrong]

Don't take the Embassy's ignorance as fact. After five years dealing with them I've realised most Japanese beaurocrats couldn't find their own ass with both hands..................

[Mekugi]

Heehee...
Both hands, flashlight and a map....still no arse.

-R


Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
Don't take the Embassy's ignorance as fact. After five years dealing with them I've realised most Japanese beaurocrats couldn't find their own ass with both hands..................

[Steve Delaney]

Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
Don't take the Embassy's ignorance as fact. After five years dealing with them I've realised most Japanese beaurocrats couldn't find their own ass with both hands..................

I know a few teachers like that at the schools I work at in Fukaya. I'm pretty certain that a few of them couldn't find their own penis for a piss at the best of times. :D