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Margaret Lo
19th June 2000, 06:23
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kolschey:
Does anyone know if Okazaki Sensei's nephew still teaches there? His techniques were excellent.
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Hiro teaches mondays 7:30 - 9 pm and fridays 6:30 - 8 pm

-M-

MarkF
19th June 2000, 08:58
Since it is being discussed at length in the koryu forum, should not the modern (gendai) martial arts and combative sports also be studied in Japan. Judo at the Kodokan, for example? Since study is offered there for the study of Judo, Karate, aikido, etc., at "hombu" dojo, should not these arts also be preferably studied in Japan? Comments?

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

hyaku
19th June 2000, 13:32
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MarkF:
Since it is being discussed at length in the koryu forum, should not the modern (gendai) martial arts and combative sports also be studied in Japan. Judo at the Kodokan, for example? Since study is offered there for the study of Judo, Karate, aikido, etc., at "hombu" dojo, should not these arts also be preferably studied in Japan? Comments?
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I agree with you. Judo, Kendo, Aikido, Sword Arts, Koryu whatever. It's like going to boot camp. Different environment, food, temperature etc is the best way if you want to make some serious progress.

You would have though that anyone doing some serious training in the west on a weekly basis or on a course or seminar would have a taste for it and realize that completley immersing your life in Martial Arts in Japan would of benefit.

Regards, Hyakutake

19th June 2000, 14:51
As someone who has studied judo at the Kodokan Judo Institute in Tokyo and numerous smaller dojos in Japan, I would say it makes a world of difference. It's interesting that most of the U.S. judo Olympic athletes train extensively at the Kodokan and various Japanese university judo clubs before competing. Hillary Wolfe just returned from a training tour. Hopefully, we'll see her win a gold in Sydney.

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Don Cunningham

Anthony Chui
19th June 2000, 16:43
To experience the way japanese people practice, the attitudes with which they train and the way they interact with each other, training in Japan is a must I think. But just for the art/technique itself (if you are happy to separate the two), in the case of aikido anyway, many of the founder's former uchi deshi reside and teach outside of japan. europe and america would seemingly be great places to train.

Training anywhere which provides a new perspective on what you have learnt previously is great, be it japan or any foreign country, or even just a different organisation.

Though i've only expereinced some aikido dojo, i'm not sure what it would be like for other disciplines.


anthony

Margaret Lo
19th June 2000, 16:52
Mark - I agree with your post on the Koryu thread about training outside of Japan: Sometimes it is better outside of Japan or at least as good as it is in Japan. Karate has traveled outside of Japan for so long that many top instructors are either in Europe or the US, or even if still based in Japan, they spend much of the year traveling to their overseas schools. For training as good as anywhere, I can go 1 hour to NYC or Philly.

-M-

Kolschey
19th June 2000, 17:27
I remember Philly very well. I trained there in 1995-96. It was a joy to be so close to Okazaki Sensei's dojo, as I lived less than ten blocks away. That was my one serious regret in leaving Philadelphia, that I would not be able to continue training in such a good dojo. There were a number of good instuctors there, both as regular members and as visiting students. Does anyone know if Okazaki Sensei's nephew still teaches there? His techniques were excellent.

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Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
-Rudyard Kipling

Joseph Svinth
19th June 2000, 17:50
To truly know what boot camp is like, one must first serve in the Marine Corps. So, as I'm sure you're not a hypocrite who on one thread accuses someone of talking about things that he knows nothing about and then on another thread promptly does the same, would you mind telling us when you were in boot camp. I was in Platoon 3092, MCRD San Diego, graduated November 1975 myself.

Also, since Americans need to go to Japan to learn judo, then does this mean that Japanese need to come to the US to learn to play baseball?

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Joe
http://ejmas.com

Walker
19th June 2000, 19:27
My first thought on this would be that if you are at the level of considering going to Japan to deepen your knowledge of an art wouldn’t you be better served by treating it more as a graduate school choice. Find the person you most want to learn from and go where they are no matter where they are (assuming they’ll have you) - Germany, Japan, Mongolia, Nigeria, wherever.
Japan is just a shell that may or may not contain what you seek. It is not a cure all.

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-DougWalker

hyaku
19th June 2000, 19:28
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hyaku:

I agree with you. Judo, Kendo, Aikido, Sword Arts, Koryu whatever. It's like going to boot camp. Different environment, food, temperature etc is the best way if you want to make some serious progress.

You would have though that anyone doing some serious training in the west on a weekly basis or on a course or seminar would have a taste for it and realize that completley immersing your life in Martial Arts in Japan would be of benefit.

Regards, Hyakutake
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DJM
19th June 2000, 23:29
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph Svinth:
Also, since Americans need to go to Japan to learn judo, then does this mean that Japanese need to come to the US to learn to play baseball?
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Oooh.. Still smarting?
http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif
David


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Poetry of Birds,
A Thousand Voice Melody,
Dancing on the Waves
-- David Marshall

Chuck Clark
20th June 2000, 01:51
Joe,

(Platoon 369, MCRD San Diego, Graduated 1965)

I try to go back to Japan as often as possible. I made a decision not to stay and live in 1968, but there are many things there that I am connected to and care about deeply.

I agree that one of the major things is that you usually elevate your peer practice group by a large factor in the strong dojo in Japan. There are still many amazing teachers there too.

Regards,


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Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
http://www.jiyushinkai.org

MarkF
20th June 2000, 10:47
hmmm. I wonder. Personally, I'd love to see the japanese come here with a couple of Saduhara Oh's in tow to see what they could do with the "new" baseballs here.

Uh, I went south? Not particularly to do my thing, but I just happened to end up in Mexico for a few years. I would think it is the same in Japan. Down south, they too, want to toss the gaij...er, gavacho around because they are sure the gai...er, gringo would not be able to take it. Anyway, tough judoka down there. I highly recommend the state sponsored dojo there. Let's see. Where did I put my 1AO certificate?

Earl Hartman
22nd June 2000, 00:04
Just thought I'd wander over here to see what was going on. Hi, everybody.

The baseball analogy is very apt. As a matter of fact, it is the dream of almost every Japanese baseball player to be able to make it in the Big Leagues, i.e., US baseball, becasue it is considered that that is still where the best baseball is played. The field is bigger, the pitching is faster, the players are stronger. And some Japanese players can make it here. Is it the game or the player? Who can really say?

The Japanese play baseball in a Japanese way. The rules are basically the same, but they approach the game differently. An excellent book on this subject is "Ya Gotta Have Wa". I can't remember the author's name or the publisher. I'm sure Joe will know. It is a very perceptive take on the differences in the Japanese and American versions of the game.

I am not going to get into whether budo, either koryu or gendai, should be considered on a par with baseball. Everyone will have his or her own take on that. However, the main thing that struck me, both when I went to Japan first to train there, then came back to the US, was that for better or worse, Americans in general share certain basic assumptions about life that are fundamentally different from those of Japanese, and vice versa. These different assumptions permeate everything they do and how they do it.

I believe that in general some people believe that learning these Japanese ways of being/doing/thinking/feeling is a fundamental part of really understanding budo and that some people do not consider it so fundamental. Having trained in both Japan and the US, all I can say is that it is very different. A dojo with a Japanese trained instructor may have more of that flavor, but it will simply not be as strong. A dojo with a US trained instructor will have less. I think the argument comes in when some people believe the "Japaneseness" of the art they are doing is vital and some don't.

Earl

MarkF
22nd June 2000, 07:27
Hi Earl,
Good post! I have to say I agree with you, and it certainly doesn't need another argument, but I thought it mght make for another perspecitive. I mean, "Peanuts and popcorn, and Crackerjacks" are not on the menu for between inning snacks over there. Culturally, most things are different so if MA is on your menu, and you are willing to study the culture, than there is no doubt where you should do it. But if MA is the only reason, you may be in for some disappointments. It is like knowing the language some before you go. Everyone likes the effort even if your vocabulary isn't where it should be, but if you are willing to give of yourself, than that is the difference. Too many go with the attitude that "Just going" is what will get you in. It takes a lot more than that and some just can't make the adjustments.

My teachers both learned what the learned in Japan, but one did it as a member of the armed forces, and the other was issei. They had very different approaches to teaching and what was to be taught, but I was able to use both. The airforce teacher knew a lot and included some of his H2H in his judo, while my other teacher was very traditional in his teaching methods. It appeared at times that his classes were out of control, but his methods produced. Both taught kata as well, and some of my jujutsu was of value, as well. But the argument as to which has more value will always be around. There are many who have trained in Japan, but say, while it is culturally different, what you take from it may be the same, so whose to know?

No, that argument has all ready been done to death, so it was somewhat surprising that it came up when it did in the koryu threads, and by whom. Different cultures? Definitely. Same attitudes? Not at all.

Joseph Svinth
22nd June 2000, 10:07
The book Earl mentioned is by Robert Whiting, whose new book "Tokyo Underworld" is one I'm currently reading.

Wally Yonamine, the Nisei who revolutionized Japanese baseball by introducing sliding into the Japanese game, is worth reading about, too -- he even played for the 49ers before going to Japan.

Anyway, the Japanese modified baseball to meet local requirements. This seems quite logical. So, if they can do this and still call the game beisboru, why shouldn't Americans do something similar and without approbrium call the new activities kahrotty or joo-doh?

22nd June 2000, 13:25
Joseph,

As a hospital corpsman, I didn't go to Marine boot camp, but did attend field medical service school (a watered down version of advanced infantry training) in 1971 at Camp Lejeune, NC. They kind of rushed us through as there was a shortage of field corpsmen at the time.

Of course one doesn't have to go to Japan to learn judo. However, if you want to find a large number of highly skilled practitioners to train with, then you do have to go there. I guess other countries would also qualify, but the Japanese welcome foreign competitors to train in order to encourage the spread of judo. There are many programs, not only at the Kodokan, but at many of the university clubs as well.

Unfortunately, judo is not so popular here. As a result, there is a relatively small number of serious competitors. To truly excel in judo, you must practice with others who have highly developed skills.

MarkF
22nd June 2000, 16:04
Don,
The best judoka here go to Europe th train, especially Frnace. Jim Pedro has been training there and Jason Morris has as well. The point is, good judo is to be had everywhere if you know where to look. I also agree that the best judo clubs in Japan are probably at most university clubs. the Kodokan is fine if you like certiain tradition, and the judo history museum. I was told in the sixties that the Kodokan was not the last word in good judo.

Earl Hartman
22nd June 2000, 17:30
Joe:

Actually, the Japanese usually call it "yakyu", or "field ball". This should be right up your alley, and I'm sure you are well veresd in the subject, but as you know "beisuboru" was very polular prior to WWII, but during the period of nationalist militarism, it was bad form to be playing a game that was an import of the "Kichiku Bei-Ei", the "American and British animals". However, "beisuboru" was firmly entrenched and wildly popular, as it remains today. So the people in charge got to thinking: "Hmmmm.... what to do.... what to do...wait! I know! We'll just replace all the terms with real Japanese words! A "homu ran" will now be a "hon rui da"! a "pitchya" will now be a "toshu"! "Fasuto besu" will now be "ichi rui"! I'm a genius!" So everyone still played baseball, but it was now unsullied by any foreign words, and thus became a completely native and homegrown game. Anyway, since baseball is really just the American version of "rounders", a watered down version of cricket invented for English women since they couldn't play the "real" game, one can hardly fault the Japanese for doing what they did with the game.

Also, a general "Hmm...now that's interesting" sort of question: can anyone name a team sport played in Japan that is a traditonal native sport and not a foreign import?

Earl

Margaret Lo
22nd June 2000, 17:43
Earl - I heard on NPR that the Japanese did not have teamp sports prior to the advent of baseball, and that the deepness of their love affair with baseball is largely due to the fact that baseball was the first team sport introduced to Japan.

Don't know how accurate that is but that's what I heard.

-M-

Earl Hartman
22nd June 2000, 18:00
Margaret:

That may be true, and it wouldn't surprise me at all. It has always fascinated me that Japan, famous (rightly or wrongly) throughout the world for the groupthink, lockstep, and teamwork aspects of their culture, would have no native team games, whereas the US, known and admired/hated throughout the world for our supposed emphasis on the "rugged individual" would have a sporting culture which emphasizes (although not exlusively) team games such as football, baseball, basketball, and hockey. My personal guess is that the Japanese emphasize individual accomplishment in sports precisely becasue their culture is so group oriented, and the Americans emphasize team sports precisely because the rest of our culture emphasizes individuality so strongly. Balance is everything, and I guess everyone senses this intuitively.

Earl,
Studying For His Degree In Armchair Psychology

Luke Short
23rd June 2000, 05:44
Mr. Hartman,

In a sense I think Sumo is in part a team sport. Here is a good example of how the culture is important in the Japanese version of things.Especially in budo, this is a plus I think American budo could learn from.

Yes, the sumo guys are without team-mates when they are in the ring. But they train together like a baseball team in a stable. They don't train solo, and they don't train with members of other stables. The sempai and kohai relationship very strong. Not only the grandchampion wins but his stable-mates all benefit. The winnings get shared with everyone, the grandchampion doesn't keep it for himself.

The various stables aren't cozy with eachother, there is a feeling of compeeting against the other stables.

Could you imagine an American dojo where this feeling of "group" exists? At tournaments,everyone wouldn't keep any trophy unless the vast majority of your dojo-mates won as well. How about the feeling of "group" that exists with the members outside the dojo. In Japan, your sempai isn't just the sempai in the dojo, but when ever and where ever.

I think in this way, even Sumo is a team sport.

Joseph Svinth
23rd June 2000, 10:16
Earl -- Jigoro Kano during the 1890s said that the only sports in Japan before the 1880s were running, swimming, fencing, and wrestling. (The fencing was no doubt what we would call prizefighting and the wrestling was of course sumo.)But you're right, the team ball games do not seem to have been real popular in Japan.

Speaking of renaming things, rugby became "battle ball." Like boxing, it continued to be played throughout WWII. Baseball was bad because it was a mass spectator sport rather than something that prepared one for war. Sumo was different because it was traditional, but it had to be cancelled in 1944 because the Army wanted a building for making balloon bombs and the Kokugeikan was it. As I recall, the renaming came sometime in 1940, about the same time Tojo borrowed the Strength through Joy school PE program from the Nazis. That one went by the boards in August 1945 -- even before the Americans arrived, the Ministry of Education dropped grenade throwing and knife fighting from middle school curriculums.

One of the first things the Japanese did in September 1945 was organize baseball games, first against two local colleges and about a week later with US military teams. Boxing waited until December 1945 to have a major event at the Kokugeikan; though it featured Japanese fighters, it was organized by Koreans and Filipinos.

Luke has a good point, though -- the Nisei judoka always viewed the team championship as being much more important than how one did as an individual. Thus they were not averse to sending brown belts to out-of-town tournaments wearing white belts. (They would have done it with the black belts, too, but everybody knew them.)

I've also heard that a typical attempt on a line would be to put your number 5 guy against their number 1,your number 4 against their number 2, and your 1,2, and 3 against their numbers 3,4, and 5. That way you should win 3-2 and your juniors get some good experience. Obviously that doesn't work too often, but it is the type of team play that commonly appears in weightlifting and marathon running.

MarkF
23rd June 2000, 10:32
Joe and Luke,
I always thought this was a secret, but the judoka of the sixties and seventies, particularly with kids under sixteen, that you could expect the white belts to be green belts (older too), the green belts to be purple belts, and the purple belts to be boyishly-looking brown belts. Not everyone was, mind you, but everyone had done it at least once or twice. Due to my size, I was entered into the twelve and under when I was thirteen, but when I still lost, I thought I should at least lose to someone older than me:D