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Tim Atkinson
13th June 2003, 05:41
I believe (and please correct me if I am not) that "correct" position for a Shinden is the East wall of the dojo when possible.

Further to this, if the dojo represents more than one ryuha, how would you position a photo of the founder, soke etc of each ryuha.

What sets the precedence? Are they located one next to the other? One over the other, with the senior ryuha on top or some other arrangement?

This may not be a common occurrence, but if you have more than one ryuha utilising a hall, or if one person teaches more than one style, it could well occur.

I would appreciate your views.

hyaku
13th June 2003, 07:53
The North.

Then looking down the dojo (South) the left is the higher position (Kamiza) and the right lower (Shimoza). Then again if you have doors they need to be away from top end of Kamiza. So the entrance to the room/building could dictate the layout.

The second question. Mmm Too difficult for me.

Can't you change the pictures depending on who is using it at that time?

Hyakutake Colin

Tim Atkinson
16th June 2003, 23:54
Thanks Guys. I was after general rules. If you are able to do the right thing I believe you should.

Thanks again

Tim Atkinson
23rd June 2003, 02:23
I will be as specific as I can in order to establish the situation in which I find myself.

I have finally been able to set aside an area at home for a dojo. I am able to use the double garage which has al least 3m (10foot) ceiling for this purpose.

Layout is as follows:

Large garage doors to the North,
Clear external wall to the East (currently has shinden),
Internal partition wall and door to house to the West (currently has weapons racks)
Window and external door on the South wall.

So my understanding from the posts above, is that the Shiden should be on the North wall and shomen is the east wall.

In my situation this is not possible. Can Shinden and shomen occupy the same wall? (I thought that they could).

As far as the portraits of the founders or sensei, as I follow Shinto Muso Ryu Jo, I thought a portrait of Shimizu Sensei would be appropriate as he was the one to introduce post war Jo to the world.

I would also like to include a portrait of my Kenjustu teacher Morozumi Sensei. (Shinto Seishen Ryu falls into the same area as Obata's Shinkendo. A "new" ryu based upon koryu / family teachings)

So I would say that the portrait of Shimizu Sensei would sit above that of Morozumi Sensei, as Shinto Muso Ryu is the senor ryu.

Please post your options, for that is the purpose of the post, so that I can better understand the issues involved.

Chidokan
25th June 2003, 22:13
If your kenjutsu teacher is still alive leave the picture down...they only put photos up of teachers who are no longer around. How about a nice bit of kanji instead? Gives a bit more 'flavour to the place as well!

Tim Hamilton

Tim Atkinson
25th June 2003, 23:55
Thanks Tim!

I have been able to establish from other sources how one should place the alter and in relation to this, which is then the sides for uchidachi and shidachi.

I have an interest in this from a professional point of view. As an Architect I find it interesting how our behaviour can influence our architecture. I would like to base a thesis on the way in which kobudo has influenced the architecture of historic Japan.

I know that Katori Shinto Ryu has a set of writing on how to establish a castle in relation to the topography in which the structure sits.

My only concern is the amount of information available. In a way this post was a way of establishing what information was forthcoming and from whom.

Thanks again Tim, and others for your posts.

Mike B. Johnson
30th June 2003, 15:15
Mr Atkinson,

Subject matter similar to this came up a while ago on the Bugei Forum. I sent an e-mail to a moderator over there named Toby Threadgill for some clarification. He responded with the most detailed information I've ever received on the subject.

One thing I remember distinctly from that e-mail was that a Butsadan is never appropriate in a Traditional dojo. Only a Shinto Kamidana. I'm not sure if thats a universal rule or if its something peculiar to the Shindo Yoshin Kai.

There is also a very interesting article on Budo Reigi recently published on the Aikido Journal website by Mr Threadgill's Sensei, Yukiyoshi Takamura. It's only Part 1. I can't wait for Part 2. Very interesting stuff as it covers info and attitudes on reigi I've pondered for years and never found answers to.

Mike Johnson

Tim Atkinson
30th June 2003, 23:56
Mike,

Thanks for that, I will follow it up. I think it is one of the many areas of budo which we are not exposed to in the west as much as if we were in Japan. I realise that there would not be classes on the subject, but one would be exposed to rei of the dojo and be able to somehow absorbed the unwritten rules. As with any tacit learning you would not be overtly aware of what you were taking in.

Thanks again! :D

hyaku
1st July 2003, 00:46
Simply put it really has nothing to do with Budo. A Butsudan or Buddhist Altar has the spirit of the departed and those before him going back many generations. It is kept in the family home. If someone dies and the home is sold or they have no home a decision is made as to who looks after it. This is usually the eldest child.

Then family congregate at that place at Buddhist related days and periods.

Most people choose to die in Buddhism. Just a few follow Shinto rites.

As Tim Hamilton has already said we do not generaly display photogaphs of living people.

Hyakutake Colin

Tim Atkinson
1st July 2003, 00:54
What I meant was, that this is anexample of the sort of information atht is common to a native Japanese, which is not known to those living outisde of Japan.

It also extends to the study of budo and makes me wonder just what information I am missing out on absorbing because I do not train in Japan.

I understand that it is not appropiate to display a photo of your sensei if he is alive. I now understand better the issues involved. And that was the point of my post.

W.Bodiford
4th July 2003, 18:10
Originally posted by Mike B. Johnson

One thing I remember distinctly from that e-mail was that a Butsadan is never appropriate in a Traditional dojo.

It depends on what one means by "butsudan." If one is a practicing Buddhist, then of course a Buddhist altar (or altars) are permissible. If, for example, it is a memorial shrine for deceased people (or animals, etc.) with whom one has had a personal relationship (for example, as family members or within a teacher-student lineage), then it would be perfectly appropriate. If it is for enshrining a particular buddha or bodhisattva with whom one has established a religious relationship, then it would be perfectly appropriate. (In both of these cases, one probably should ask a local Buddhist cleric to consecrate the shrine. The cleric then can provide advice on how to best care for it and what daily rituals are suitable at it.) If, on the other hand, it is merely a decoration intended to impart an "oriental" atmosphere, then it is totally inappropriate.

I hope this helps.

hyaku
4th July 2003, 23:25
This is true of my old Dojo. Sensei lived and died there. His rooms were adjoining the Dojo. In the room there was a Butsudan and his wife would always say a prayer in front of it before practice and I would sometimes join her.

The Shinden alter was also an active place. As he had died there out ettiquette was slighly different and in memory of the late teacher.

My own home has both a Butsudan and a Shinto altar to Kato Kiyomasa. But as mentioned it does have religious significance related to the family and is not decoration.

It would be nice if you could consecrate your Dojo and Shinto shrine too if possible or the land it is to be built on. I had Shinto rites performed before I broke up the Kamado (Japanese oven) to make us feel at ease.

Hyakutake Colin

Mike B. Johnson
7th July 2003, 06:44
Hi,

It appears that I mis-spoke concerning Sensei Threadgill and the Shindo Yoshin Kai. I contacted him via e-mail for some clarification on information related to this discussion. He reiterated that Takamura Sensei was a devoted follower of something he called "Folk Shinto" and as such did not have a Butsadan in the dojo. He further stated that if one were a practising Buddhist of course a Butsadan could be used in the dojo although not in place of a Kamidana. He further stated that the confusion surrounding this could be associated with a practise related to that alluded to by Mr Bodiford. He stated that in the west some people are confused and placing a Butsadan on the upper seat of the dojo in place of a kamidana. He stated that this was not really appropriate. Often individuals doing this were apparantly using the Butsadan for aesthetic purposes and not really aware that a Kamidana and a Butsadan are not the same thing.

Sorry about any confusion my post created.

Mike