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signaljammer
15th June 2003, 04:39
There seems to be a feeling with some people that judo is becoming more and more strength based, and having less to do with yielding, especially in competition. (See a previous post about "GoDo" and I believe Manny Salazar said on another forum at e-budo that that was a reason he left active practice of judo).

I've been thinking that the reason might be due to the focus people have on randori and competition these days as opposed to kata.

I know often when sparring, new judoka tend to actively resist (jigotai, straight arming, et c.) instead of trying to flow with the other persons efforts and use their momentum against them.

I suppose eventually we learn not to do that, but where do new judoka learn the movements, timing, reading of your opponent, and other skills necessary to do this?

It seems to me that Judo already has drills for this. They are in the kata. Especially the soft self defense forms.

Randori is obviously necessary and effective for actually learning how to do techniques. But there is more to martial arts than mechanics of punching, or in our case, a throw.

One must learn how to engage an opponent. Angles of attack, and how to neutralize them. Entering in.

All these skills would be useful in tournaments. And from what I can tell from my copy of Kodokan Judo, this is learned from kata.

So why don't more clubs practice them? It seems to me that we're doing ourselves and our art an injustice.

Many people I know dismiss kata as boring. I don't think it has to be like that at all, especially if we train with realism, like we're supposed to.

Plus, if a little boredom is so bad, why do judo at all? why not just stay home and play Samurai Showdown on your nintendo?

Am I in the minority thinking this? Am I just nuts?

What do you guys think?

I hope we get some good discussion out of this, because it has been troubling me lately.

Thanks :)

MarkF
15th June 2003, 12:02
Randori is and probably always will be the center of your training, but like anything else you must decide for yourself. Getting bored? I used to (and still do when I have time to train) play randori doing as many nage waza without repetition I could, and when I couldn't remember another, then I went back to see what I left out. It sometimes was a throw I hadn't learned yet so back to the drawing "bored." Don't forget, randori as a training menthod goes back at least to the eighteenth century, Jikishin-ryu Jiu-do (an older school of the kito-ryu jujutsu). As that style called what their method "ran" and as the school used the same kanji to describe their judo (it was probably pronounced jiu no michi or yawara no michi, but with identical kanji as in Judo), it was here Kano ended his search for a name to separate his jujutsu from all the other jujutsu. Randori being the other.

When you are young and strong is when you are going to benefit most from randori so when choosing a dojo, a teacher's age, in comparison to what he may centered must be part of it, what the basic underlying principle of why that dojo is what it is. The Kata aren't the most important thing, IMO, when beginning judo, or in the first or second decade. Many stay busy, or not bored, by competing, something which people tend to think is not tradtional while it is probably the one thing besides randori which is in the tradition of Kodokan Judo. Reasons may have changed, the way it is done may have changed, but by and large, it is still traditional judo.

Most learn the least difficult kata when starting out whether you do so as a forms exercise or not. You should be able to do the nage no kata and katame no kata relatively well after two or three years. Randori no kata is made up of these forms so whether it is drills plus randori, drills plus randori and kata depends on a lot of factors. First, there are fewer dojo which major or spend a lot of time doing kata, but that doesn't mean they cannot be learned. I know of more dojo which teach at least the randori no kata and kime or the system of Kodokan Goshin Jutsu than those which do not. But if you apply how often or the importance of these kata, well some believe only in the randori no kata. If the teacher is relatively young, chances are you are going to be doing a lot of randori and drills while learning the techniques. As the teacher learns, so will his students but kata practice can be boring after a while which is why you need randori and shiai. Needs change, though. In the early going this shouldn't be boring, as there is so much you can do in randori that I can't see the average judo player being bored with it at all. Shiai, too, I like to think was the one thing which kept me interested during the times when I may have been bored with it, and that happened but every time I took time away, I'd be back. When I was injured to the point of not being able to walk without help, I was so bored that I went to class just to watch. That happens, people take time off for all sorts of reasons, mainly work and family, or cut the time down spent in the dojo. It is said one must never stop training, then Kano goes into how to come back to judo after an absence, or a prolonged one. Judo isn't always in the dojo, either, it extends beyond the doors and mats of the dojo.

After a twenty years or so, when you either tire of shiai, then take a look at what you don't know. There is so much that it is a distant possibility that you will learn all of it, but that is the next challenge. You probably will never get there but the fun is in the chase.

In the book, Judo Kyohan, Yokoyama says (and I am just explaining what he said, I don't have time to search for the exact quotes) that the founders were generally weak, small men, but you can see how great judo is today (the book in English came out in 1915), but if they had been big and strong imagine how great Judo may have been if that were true at the time. The authors make a point there. In some ways, judo may have created its own death because after the war, those who came back or started, used the strength the older judoka leaving the dojo or shiai in disgust. That's understandable for the time.

So it is true strength, size, but also ability and a wide knowledge of the waza all play into it. Strength however, must be restrained, and only used when absolutely necessary, from the hips, shoulders, and hands, not the already tensed musculature. It makes one slow and tired very quickly maintaining one's strength all the time. It also takes nore time to apply technique in this way while a relaxed body is all ready to use the muscle and mental aquity necessary to good judo.

If you have ever seen a performance of kata by those very experienced, usually, you will see the younger judoka doing the "inferior (easier and more readily applicable to judo)" kata, nage no kata, katame no kata, kime no kata (and probably Goshin jutsu), while the ages of judoka beginning to perform the "superior kata" the ju no kata, itsu tsu no kata, koshiki no kata, climbs until the most purely jujutsu kata is last (koshiki or kito-ryu no kata) and usually performed by the older, more highly graded judoka, the masters.

That is just a basic summary, as I have seen and experienced judo, it may be almost opposite of some who specialize in kata and kata competition. There are all sorts of ways of being involved in judo, so this is no means "the way" it is just one way. Many have continued with randori and shiai into their seventies, so that is by no means the yard stick, it is simply a choice, and there are more than one choice.

Someone asked me to come to his dojo "to see more of the elephant." He taught more than judo and for some that is the way to do it. I think you may see just as much if you are willing, in the practice of judo.


Mark

cary
16th June 2003, 04:44
I don't get the sense that historically, kata came after one's shiai career was over. In "Judo - Formal Techniques", Hikoichi Aida stated that Kano Shihan felt Aida was not "sufficiently mature" for promotion to 4th dan, despite having more than enough contest points as the co-captain of his university judo team. Despite being in his peak shiai years, it wasn't until he was proficient with ju-no-kata that Kano Shihan promoted him to 4th dan.

Perhaps in later years, the learning of kata after shiai became prominent. Most of the folks that I know started kata, typically nage-no-kata, as ikkyu in preparation for their shodan test. It may be that part of the reason why kata is not more well known is the rank promotion system. I believe that in both the USJA and USJF, only about 3 kata are required for 4th dan, with one additional kata being required for 5th dan. I learned ju-no-kata, itsutsu-no-kata, and koshiki-no-kata before my 40th birthday and the others learning with me weren't getting senior citizen discounts at Denny's. I tend to think that those, more or less regardless of age, who have a desire to learn judo do so. Those who are content only studying one segment of the art do so until they become bored. Once bored, they either quit judo altogether or decide to pursue the other aspects of judo. I hope more pick the latter rather than the former.

Elliot Harris
16th June 2003, 05:51
Ben, Mark:

Good points. While due to personal obligations my exposure to judo has become increasingly sparse over the last 3-4 years, I train when I can. And, because I travel a lot, I have the opportunity to see a lot of dojo, and interact with a lot of judoka – albeit, sometimes infrequently. Never the less here is my two cents:

There are some truly talented judoka out there who can consistently throw ippon both in the dojo and at tournaments. Most of these guys are extremely strong and often well-conditioned athletes who use their strength to their advantage. For many of them, however, their judo is obviously credited to their strength more than their technique – you can feel it when you play them, and you can see it in their movements. They are powerful – in a lineman kind of way - they are, never-the-less, relatively talented and I certainly do not begrudge them that. There is also a smaller set of judoka, some strong, some not so much, all well conditioned, who can consistently throw ippon, but for them it is pure technique. You can hardly feel them when they grip you, yet you feel compelled to move in such a way that gives them an advantage (I would say they move you, but for the great ones it doesn’t hardly feel like that is the case), they can fight from most any grip, and when you watch them they move with tremendous presence and athletic grace. For me, this is my goal, not only in my judo practice, but in any art I practice. I have been lucky enough to have seen it more than once.

Now, this is not easy to accomplish , and I don’t think any of the judoka got that way because of their kata practice (unless you count uchi-komi). I think this technique based judo was more common in the past than today and I think that is a result of an increasing focus on tournaments as the center of what it is that makes judo, well, judo.

Until a judoka learns how to be both relaxed and full, it is easy to be either strong or limp. One encourages stiffness and a reliance on strength over such aspects of technique as timing among others, the other gets you thrown easily. So most judoka, without a strong example and/or a lot of good coaching by their sensei/seniors, tend to default to using strength to avoid getting thrown – after all, hitting the mat all night isn’t really as fun as we like to tell ourselves it is. And, I think judoka who are encouraged to participate in tournaments too early in their judo experience, can come away from that having learned the wrong lessons.

However, I have found, that those judoka who really try hard to work at being relaxed and full (with the emphasis on relaxed) will eventually reach a much higher level of technical ability and have the potential to become the kind of judoka I described above. The other may win more tournaments (at fist at least), but will eventually hit a wall with regard to their technical ability, that is often too difficult to break through largely due to years of power based technique conditioning. Eventually, it is the second type of judoka who will exceed the first. Let me be clear, I am not saying that strength is not important, nor that it only plays a minor role; it is important, but in judo – at least the way I see it – it is secondary to technique, and its role will be developed once a solid base in technique has been established. And, while practicing in a relaxed manner will often get one thrown a lot – at first at least – if you stick it out, the rewards will become self evident.

There is a second part to this, and that is training strategies. Once a good core of techniques is built (this could be a thread in itself) that can be performed in a relaxed manner, strong opponents can still give you a hard time – after all size and strength do still matter. However, for many, training stops here, but it shouldn’t. Training should then be focused on how to deal with the most difficult types of opponents (stiff arms, hand over head, left vs. right and other asymmetric grips, bent over posture, tall, quick, etc…). To do this, tactical options will need to be developed that work well for the individual:

1- for starters, try using non-standard variations of a tokui waza, or you may need to develop some new techniques (for me, I have found that most of these difficult situations could be easily exploited with an atemi – something that would not be nearly as effective against the relaxed guys, and being as that is out of the question in the dojo - I have found many of the sacrifice throws work real well during many of these situations – as opposed to others).
2- try working with gripping/positioning strategies – this can be from a timing perspective, as in grab and throw (to include one handed and the so called “no hands” throws), try a new grip to attack from a different angle, how to defeat an uncomfortable grip (kansetsu variations can help here – while normally not successful as kansetsu – for me at least - they usually will let you get the grip you want).

Can kata help with this? I don’t see why not. Is it necessary? I don’t see why. Thanks for listening.

MarkF
16th June 2003, 11:15
Cary, Ben, Elliot (and anyone else who I left out),
Cary,
I gave an example of how some do it. I didn't say that kata wouldn't help or couldn't be learned or studied to help in your search, I did say that even one who believes kata to be of little use, must learn the nage no kata and the katame no kata even if it is to play good randori. I think that is probably why it is refer to as randori no kata.

Basically, that is how it happened with me. I could go into a long history (well, at the time I am talking my first twelve years of life) of how and why it came off for me. Let's just say, growing up being half the height of the guys who grudgingly accept you as a member of the baseball team or basketball team because they have to, judo was the opposite and I finally found something I was good at doing.

I found pretty early on that I had finally found something I could do, do it well, consistently. I could beat the bigger guys, their were no teams (one-on-one sports is often the answer for those who just are grudgingly accepted by teammates), I won consistently, but received bumps in rank because I was a self-starter, I became the senior student not due to longevity or rank but because I just began to act like one. It paid off in that end pretty well, but shiai was my priority and that probably was the other, early on, anyway. Perhaps I would have been even better than I was if I had done the kata beyond the early ones, I don't know, but it can work either way. When you first participated in shiai, and won with a nage waza scoring ippon, did you pull up on your opponents arm (sleeve) to help him break his fall? I did, for at least the first four years or so, but slowly learned it wasn't reciprocated so that stopped, but never in the dojo. That is how I learned to throw and also how I learned mutual benefit. I won, they fell softly.:)

I've also read enough of those of the early years to know while it may not have made one complete it certainly served its purpose, but when that wore off I was able to slow down to add what Kawaishi called the "superior kata." I may have been late, but I got there, and is one reason I never really did anything but judo. I picked up a few things here and there (after forty years that is difficult not to do). If you read Kodokan Judo, there is one short section written by Kano in which one is instructed to learn judo and in the order given. If that is so, then randori is it. Kata is next. I did do it in that order, though I didn't really know it at the time. I have to look in my copy of KJ from the fifties and see if that is there, too.

Kano may have been the founder and the first, but he wasn't the only one to have differing opinions on when kata, as was stated should be learned, and doing the nage no kata three times can be painful (ask kata specialist John Cornish on the "punishment" meeted out to him and Donn Draeger by K. Mifune when one of them performed a throw just as Mifune stuck his head in at that moment, and Mifune didn't approve. The nage no kata three times..hard was the punishment for performing a poorly-done nage). He found himself bleeding from the little spots on his body and legs where he repeatedly hit the mat (ninety hard falls, he said).

Those still around who played judo in the early days of US judo (there aren't many so do your asking now) were absolutely disgusted by what they saw in the 1950s after going back after the forced absence, why, youngsters came back far bigger and stronger, just picking up the opponent using only their strength :eek: to slam them back to the mat (that story is attributed to Hank Ogawa, BTW). They walked out due to the lack of technique and the emergence of strength.

BTW: I had to perform kata, as well, for my shodan, which stood for my dojo grade for about a year until certified. I did have to do it, but as in studying for a test, I was back at shiai while promptly forgetting the kata, at least the ju no kata. There were guests from the Kodokan that day, as well. It was a coincidence, but you want an example of a case of nerves? The more physical kata, well, I had to retain that. For randori, btw, is when you do those throws and variants of those throws off your tokui waza. Isn't it fun to go forward while uke is in reverse and skipping into an ippon seoinage successfully going forward, something you wouldn't do in a million years in competition? But you can practice the same throw crossing over and off-balancing to the side. That'll work.

I learned the goshin jutsu and kime no kata, probably before I had the nage no kata down pat, as well. This didn't stop my quest to throw an opponent through the floor and generally, my technique was good, it had to be against those who were almost always much bigger than me. Imagine trying to center, looking straight ahead so as to use your peripheral vision and you can't see the other's head nor his feet. I'm not saying I was the only one, but I think that helped my judo more than any of the superior kata did (with the exception of the kitoryu no kata which was just as fun, and was the kata in which I learned to do tani otoshi correctly).

I still haven't looked for the exact passage from Judo Kyohan, but it does make you think: what would judo have been like if there already was a physical education standard in the schools back to 1860 or so in Japan with Kano and Yamashita, etc., being big and strong? Even Kano admitted that strength is important later on, he believed technique is what made your strength work, and I believe he was correct. He also said that you must be relaxed until it is time not to relax. Those times went by in tenths of seconds, but it was important, just the same. Judo progressed a lot while Kano lived and he had misgivings, but he always said he wouldn't step in anyone's way of doing something. He accepted change in his kata as "modifications." Perhaps it was kata which made my opponents feel like I was throwing empty uwagi, and for many, many matches in a row, I don't know, but it certainly wasn't my strength, I didn't have any yet. When I did, for some reason, I got tired much more quickly. I had to relearn my tokui-waza.

The topic post conjectures that kata is whatever you make of it. You set up real scenarios and do them at near full out speed. Kata can also be grueling, and btw, I do agree completely with Elliot regarding uchikomi and kata, and uchikomi and randori. I did a lot of uchikomi. How many uchikomi can one do if you don't throw? I don't know, but it is a lot.

My reason for judo at first was one-hundred percent the self-defense. I learned and knew more kyusho and atemi before I started my first class, as that is what I wanted, but a few weeks into the class, I became enchanted with judo when I realized what I could do, especially in the future, of course, and not paying any attention to the damage I was doing myself in the process.

Anyway, you are both right, but you go with what you do best and my randori came from drilling throws, katame waza, etc., then playing as much randori I could, when there was no judo, I went on to other dojo to see if there was someone who could come out and play. For the first nine years I played four days weekly and one day on saturday, four hours of nothing but randori. Rather than just repetitions, I challenged myself to do throws I may have only seen in a book or an 8 mm film, or that was demo'd and practiced once months earlier. Then life got serious so I had to back off some, but what is so great about judo is what is there at your finger tips. Sure, you can take time away, then go back and it sometimes feel you have improved (until the next day, joints popping, muscles spasmed). It's all there, the order you do them I don't think makes much difference in the long run, I just described how it was for me, and where I found that my way wasn't disapproved of by all. I did worry about that at times, but I don't anymore. Everything else was just conjecture, certainly I was stating opinion, not direction.

Anyway, all your points are well-taken, but I tend to try to say it in the way it happened with me. Elliot stated how he did it, and so did Cary. It's just a different path up the same mountain. I certainly didn't mean to say that was the only way or even that I am right, it is just how I do and did it. In fact, the superior kata are much easier than the inferior ones at my age. They teach principles of what you have already been doing. And it is nice when a student you have taught does all of it much better than you ever have. I learned I was a better teacher than competitor, and that I was a better competitor when I was very young than I was in my thirties. The fun also wore off by then (1980s). Perhaps that was because I was beginning to lose a LOT!.


Mark

PS: I think this has turned into a good discussion.

Elliot Harris
16th June 2003, 14:38
I think this is a good discussion as well.

Actually, I never found the kata boring. But, I remember being told that kata was only for retired judoka (ie. no longer active in competition). It was also something we did for promotional exams. And, virtually everyone I knew, had to use the book as a reference in teaching as well as learning the kata – nage no kata or otherwise. In 25 years of judo, I have never seen the goshin-jitsu kata, or any of the superior kata (except the ju no kata) performed live. I have seen the techniques of the goshin-jitsu kata performed individually (as I believe is the method Mark uses to teach these – and I agree is probably how it was really meant to be transmitted), but they called it jujitsu or aikido – not judo. Delene sensei called it “old judo,” at least he called it judo. I have had another highly ranked sensei along the way, who clearly knew this material, but only showed it a few times – he didn’t like to teach it on philosophical grounds I won’t get into here.

So for me, as there was a void of information with regard to kata in my judo experience, I studied a few other arts along the way to fill in the gaps. Karate many years ago. And most recently, an aiki based art and a style of battojitsu. I find that they compliment judo rather nicely, and in many cases “look” exactly like some of the superior kata are probably supposed to look. I learned these arts from a kata perspective and they certainly taught me a lot. Or rather, mostly due to the sensei, I was ably to understand and refine (because I better understood) what was happening in the technique, and apply those elements of aiki techniques to my more traditional judo. It was also suprising to me that what this sensei called the “higher level material” is also – in principle anyway, as I understand it – what my first judo sensei tried to get across when he was talking about some of the more subtle applications of technique. So, back on subject:

I think, kata could be invaluable in helping to develop sensitivities and maneuver patterns, provided the sensei had the talent/inclination to shape the lesson this way. This is just not how I learned it, nor do I think it is necessary.

I whole heartedly agree with Mark, in that randori is extremely important especially in the younger years and that kata will take an increasingly important role as we mature. What I find most interesting in kata is the rest of the judo curriculum. As I think I have said before, I have yet to see a dojo that trains the kata with any regularity for any purpose other than preparing for promotion. There are several reasons for this:

1- most judoka are younger and over emphasizing kata at the expense of the core techniques would probably do them a disservice in their overall development.
2- Most dojo do not have a sufficiently large pool of students in which the yudansha can be separated from the mudansha without cheating the development of the mudansha.
3- Thus, as few consistently practice the various kata, there is a growing pool of ignorance with regard to this skill set, and it is only natural that instructors will then focus on other aspects of judo – ie. shiai. And this can lead to development of strength based skills if not properly guided.

(Mark, even in the late 1970s/early 1980s I remember the older sensei shaking their heads at a new judoka, who probably stood 6’2”, a wall of muscle, who had also been a champion high school wrestler. They were shaking their heads not because he was big and strong, but because he had been in judo 6 months and was testing for ni-kyu in a no weight division, wazari/ippon only, battsugun tournament; he knew 3 throws, and won all his matches because his favorite of those 3 was kata-guruma - he would literally pick his opponents up over his head and just drop them down for ippon)

For those of you that do consistently teach kata, how do you do it? Do you do it during regular class time, do you have special kata classes, or is it something you just work on after class with other interested kindred spirits at your dojo?

I think a growing interest in kata tournaments can change this knowledge vacuum over time. It will be slow, but it may even result in dojo that concentrate on kata as opposed to randori and shiai, and then we will have a completely different discussion.

signaljammer
16th June 2003, 15:39
Very good points all around gentlemen. :)

I too, am trying to chase that floating strengthless yet powerful feeling. It's hard for me sometimes, because I'm 6' @ 220 pounds, and while not a wall of muscle, I am strong. And at tournament I am in the very bottom of the big guys division. And in local tournaments, often big strong Chicago police dojo guys. Even at my dojo the it tends to be bigger older guys, that are hard to get moving!

I did have the opportunity to train with some korean national judoka for a little bit. Holy cow. SO FAST! It was incredible. Plus they were very light on their feet. They also did the throws differently. Kind of with alot of steps cut out. At least compared to my old dojo.

When I first started judo, it was both in the interest of self defense, and because I figured I'd like it. What I want out of judo, in a way is self defense skills, and that graceful dancing feeling. Not necessarily win competitions. When I first started judo I would want to do mock shiai all night long. Often against my sensei. (wheee! I'm flying!) Because I wanted to try and do what I was learning.

Now it seems to be I can't do what I've been learning in that relaxed manner, because of jigotai, straight arms, et cetera. Practice, probably is key.

Now that I'm thinking about it, perhaps I should do more randori with my instructor. He never pulled any of that. Although he would choke me when I was standing around thinking of what to try. Heh, how humbling. :)

I think what draws me to the kata is both the self defense related aspects (especially with body movement). But also that the superior ones look so graceful and almost aikido like. (But with judo *thuds* against the mat) :)

Perhaps I can try and monopolize the blackbelts time more, as the intermediate students tend to be more prone to using strength.

When I am practicing with them too, they are always saying "Relax!". Which is true, I can never do anything if i'm tense. But I seem to naturally get that way, especially if something isn't working.

Does anyone have tips on staying that relaxed judoka?

An interesting not strength based way of off balancing the korean judokas would use would be too tug several times with a whipping action at the wrist. It was remarkably more effective then just trying to pull someone one direction, if you could get it off correctly.

hmmm...

Judo is SO FUN! :)

CEB
16th June 2003, 16:38
I think the Judo-ka's training mindset the most to do with this. When I learned my Judo, in randori Judo didn't really start both partners came out hooked up and then the Judo started. I've went to other schools lately and now the Judo startes immediately. I see a big emphasis on grip fighting. Some randori looks like a catfight with all of this grip fighting. This has got to have added a lot to the Godo condition, hasn't it? The level of tension just seems a lot higher right from rei. My boys coach made the remark one night that ,yeah some guys still come out and hold their arms out and just give the other guy the grip. That is just lack of experience. I thought hey that sounds the way I play. I think the mindset that I learned with made us more sensitive to our partners movements. It seems like that I need a certain level of stillness in my self before I can feel what the other guy is doing. Maybe this is just me. I've always been a little slow.

I have been throwing a lot of the young guys with Uki Waza. I never threw anybody at the old school with that throw. The new guys just seem easy to catch coming forward. Maybe it is the rules promoting aggressive Judo that are causing this. Or maybe this just happens when you play with men around half your age. Take care.

cary
17th June 2003, 06:30
I remember reading that while Kano Shihan retired very early from randori (somehow I remember reading that he stopped doing randori at about 26), he continued kata practice throughout his life. When someone who had done some randori with Kano Shihan was asked what the experience was like, he said "it was like fighting an empty jacket." Kano claimed that such a "yielding" approach was developed (for him anyway) through kata practice, specifically ju-no-kata.

Can't say that I ever remember anyone describe doing randori with me in quite that same way...:D

Nevertheless, I do think nage-no-kata did help my throws to some extent in randori and ju-no-kata, among other relaxation drills, helped make me less clutzy.

Obviously I was never taught that kata was only for retired judoka. As a former kata competitor, many of the competitors also did shiai (masters mostly). When we were competing at the Nationals, we did not consider ourselves to be "retired". Old maybe, but not retired. :)

As stated before, I think kata can help in one's overall judo development. I don't think it is the only way to go to improve one's randori, but it can be helpful. But as one of the major areas of judo, I think there is more reason to study it than just for a promotional test. I remember hearing the saying, "Randori makes you a good fighter; kata makes you a good martial artist."

MarkF
17th June 2003, 08:42
Originally posted by cary
When someone who had done some randori with Kano Shihan was asked what the experience was like, he said "it was like fighting an empty jacket." Kano claimed that such a "yielding" approach was developed (for him anyway) through kata practice, specifically ju-no-kata.


Actually, that was said about Mifune Kyuzo-S. "It was like wrestling with an empty uwagi." That was Mifune. tori could get the uke Mifune off the ground by six inches and not be able to throw him, and even if you did, he always landed on his feet. I once met a guy like that at my dojo in Glendale, Ca. He was from Brazil and had only been in the states for a short time, and he didn't speak much, if any, English, but he loved pulling that on people. You would enter and pull off the perfect throw, you could hear the wind as he went over, but right as you think he should be getting off the mat, he would be standing there, pretending to work on his fingernails. The most common comment from me was the question, "How the hell do you do that!?" His answer was on his face, he smiled broadly, shaking his head as if to say "You mean you can't do that?" Great guy, he knew all the kata, was sandan or yondan at the time I was shodan. AND, he was smaller than I was, shorter and lighter. I had the best randori with him, but not once did I get him on his back that he didn't do himself. I didn't have a thing to do with it. He was from another time, I thought, he didn't play judo like the rest of us.

Yes, Kano did drop out of randori and shiai, but I think for other reasons, he wasn't remembered strictly for his judo, or as "The Father of Judo," that came from him bringing sports to Japan, and judo wasn't one of them, not to Kano. But he is regarded today as the "Father of Japanese Sport." He brought it to Japan, and japanese sportsmen to the world. He said, when asked if Judo would be in the Olympic Games "Judo is not a game. However, I will not stand in anyone's way who wishes to do so." He never called an obvious error in a kata a mistake, he called it a modification.

Remember all Kano had accomplished by his middle twenties. He was an academic with the equivalent of a doctorate, and that is what he used to build judo, or more correctly, rebuild jujutsu, and even some kobudo. The Kodokan still has seminar-like classes for the study of others such as karate (mostly shotokan, I'd guess), weapons, (the jo), and other teachers with specialties in certain areas of jujutsu.

Remember that Kano left the active phase of judo only about four years after its founding, but he found lots of time to teach and demonstrate, teach the fundamentals, basics, and principles all of which are found in kata, or mostly in kata.

While explaining the ju no kata at the Budokwai, he joked "There are three parts to the ju no kata, and I've been doing them for forty years. I think I can do two of them correctly." Paraphrase, but Kano also had a sense of humor.

One also has to take into account the kind of training then, the amount stuffed into a day or week. It truly was a life's journey, and to many, more important than anything including family and a career. Kano came from a well-to-do family which gave him time to pursue all he wanted in short periods of time. Perhaps it is like the Jewish calendar. Days are counted by when the sun went down, and when it came up. I think those guys had more hours in their day. They must have.

I think it is a generational thing. One comes along, doing judo the way that his generation believes is important, and whens/he sees it being done to the contrary, well, it just isn't judo to him/her.

There are also exceptions. Yasuhiro Yamashita was a student of the original way, forced to perform in the modern world. One of the youngest 7-dan ever, he was still competing, and not necessarily in senior shiai. But he didn't disappoint. Koga was another. He revolutionized two-sided judo by developing a right-sided seoinage, which actually was switched to a left-sided one during the chain of moves, with uke actually being turned inside-out, not knowing what was happening. Uke was turned, like you see in old movies and TV shows, in which the attacker is turned completely in a 360 before hitting the ground, but Koga is my personal savior and competitor, though, because his throws were my throws though I'd never say it was equivalent.

I have to admit that in my early years, kata was important, but it wasn't taught exactly like kata. It was taught purely as self-defense so no joseki, no formal manner, just effective movements taken from different forms of several kata. We praciced these moves first after warmups, kiai and all, and it was fun.


I dislike how judo is played today, but I do not dislike judo in any way, no matter what I have to give up to teach it like I learned. In a shor while, perhaps I'll be the guy in the wheel chair, or just too old thinking while watching shiai "You know, if I were twenty years younger I could beat those guys" then turn the channel to watch Tiger Woods make the game his.

Who knows?


Mark

cary
18th June 2003, 04:25
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF


Actually, that was said about Mifune Kyuzo-S. "It was like wrestling with an empty uwagi." That was Mifune.

True, my point was that the same message was conveyed about doing randori with Kano Shihan as well. In the case of Kano Shihan, he attributed this skill to kata practice. I know the same observation was made about doing randori with Mifune Kyuzo-S; many other compliments were paid to Mifune Sensei as he performed randori much longer than Kano Shihan. In the case of Mifune Sensei, I am not aware what he attributed this "yielding" skill to - he was a master of kata but I have never read that he credited kata with giving him this skill as Kano Shihan had.

MarkF
18th June 2003, 11:10
Apologies for the misunderstanding. Most stories I've heard about Kano were more social than actually playing randori with him. I'd never read that quote attributed to anyone other than Mifune, even Kano. I wonder how the similarities arrived to be said the same of Mifune as Kano really only was active for a few years (in the Kodokan)?. I do have a tape including Mifune in shiai. I also know two people who were students of Mifune at some time in their lives, and pretty much tell the same stories, except for the one of Cornish and Draeger.

Mark