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Striking Hand
16th June 2003, 04:32
http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=54704

Shitoryu Dude
16th June 2003, 06:54
Yeah, as if a toddler has the slightest f***ing clue as to what 99% of MA training actually involves. I personally have only seen one or two candidates for Shodan under the age of 14 that truly warranted serious consideration.

:beer:

A. M. Jauregui
16th June 2003, 07:32
I do not agree with adult belts for children but am not opposed to belts for children. Such as the separate belt system that I have seen in judo and Brazilian Jujitsu.

There was a Sienfield episode where Crammer was enrolled in a class with kids. He attempted to justify his being there as same skill level should be in the same class. Obviously it was a miss-match.

MarieB
16th June 2003, 07:57
i have to agree that it makes no sense to start youngsters in MA who have yet to grow in their adult teeth. what i've read is that it's best for kids to start before age 12 so that they'll stick with it. but i don't comprehend any parent who starts their child at MA, let alone having them train, before thinking skills such as logic and comprehension develop. IMO no child should start MA before age 8.

monkeyboy_ssj
16th June 2003, 10:48
This is really wrong, kind of makes you wonder what sort of instructor & organisation would do this?

Oh...Taekwondo, i think it is a great art but some people treat it like Tae-Bo.

The kids legs wouldn't even be long enough to do some of the moves let alone even find a dobuk that would fit.

With the skill comes alot of maturity and responsiblity, and a kid younger than 18 just does not have the maturity, ALOT changes, trust me.

I'm 19 and so many views have changed in the last year.

It's quite a shame how these eastern masters must be kicking themselves (literally) by letting egotistic westerners butcher these arts. Kind of makes we feel embarrased, you know?

Cheers

StanLee
16th June 2003, 12:46
I'll be interested to see how much crap these kids can deal out!

I help teach aikido to children between the ages of 5 and 10, but we never make them do anything that will damage their bodies. We try to help them learn about working with others and showing care and thought for those around them. I think that MA is important to children (not the kick the crap out of each other kind) because it teaches them the importance of good values and conduct, both of which, I think is seriously lacking in many kids these days.

Stan

Sapporo Ichiban
17th June 2003, 02:00
I kinda have doubts that any 3-year-old would have the physical coordination to warrant belting. But, overall, I don't have an objection to starting kids in MA young. When I have sons & daughters (knock on wood), I plan on slowly introducing them to MA around 6.

I also think belting should only be about whether you can perform the required techniques with speed and (relative) power. I don't think belting should really have anything to do with (1) 'maturity' or even (2) practical fighting ability.
It shouldn't be about maturity because after 30+ years on this planet, I'm still not quite sure what that word means. :)
And although the primary goal of MA is pure fighting ability, belting shouldn't be about that because, otherwise, the only black belts you'd see are the superheavyweights. Come to think of it, there wouldn't be many women blackbelts and, moreover, older folks would have to hand in their belts as they aged and their abilities deteriorated (no resting on your laurels grandpa! golden years my eye!). So I say, load up the little tykes on sugar and let 'em loose.

icynorth
17th June 2003, 02:12
This is one of the reasons a black belts means absolutely piss all these days.

In the system I train in kids under 12 get 3 belts yellow, Orange and Green. When they get to 12 they can be re evaluated to whatever adult belt they may be nearest. No kids under 7.

I have a 3 year old, give me a break I can't get her to finish dinner let alone a kata. OMG

Steven Malanosk
17th June 2003, 02:42
Started JuJitsu in 65, when I was 5, and KaraTe in 68, at 8 and have been doing both steady ever since. Got ShoDan Ho = jr. or prep bb, in 72 at 12, stayed ShoDan Ho till 78 when I turned 18.

I broke some records back then, and have been accused of being over ranked for my age even now, at 43 this year.............

But holy meaningless rank BatMan! Even for TKD, this is pushing it, don't you think?

I have a three year minimum for yudansha grading toward my students.

Only 2 have made it in that miniscule ammnt. of time.

Maybe it's something in their water.................

Striking Hand
17th June 2003, 02:47
Originally posted by icynorth
I have a 3 year old, give me a break I can't get her to finish dinner let alone a kata. OMG

Amen, on that.

At times my little son (just under 3) tries to copy my MA training & forms when we go to the park together, for about 2 min. at the most that is. Legs and arms flying everywhere.
:D

I might teach him the basics if he wants it when he turns 5 or 6, but feel that 8 or 9 is better to start MA training.

Cheers.

joe yang
17th June 2003, 08:11
Hate to say it, but the problem probably stems from the McDojos. They seemed to have started the trend toward kiddy martial arts, karate games, whatever. I've said it before, my GM never took anyone under age 6, and then only after evaluating the kid on an individual basis. He didn't start his kids till they were 8 and 9. I remember when we started taking 5 year olds. GM wasn't happy, it was a business decision. He used to tell parents to come back when their kids were a year older, advise them they would just be wasting money. Then too may parents just started going to McDojos instead. GM started losing business. I will say, we don't play games. The 5 year olds and 6 year olds have to take the regular kids class and cut it. I can't handle them. GM can. He makes them focus. I'm still trying to figure out how he does it. It's high maintenance, even more so now, because GM teaches even more, to let me observe. Oh well.

And for what it's worth, McDojo is karate, TKD is McDojang! :D

PeteBoyes
17th June 2003, 08:43
My youngest is not 5 until October and has been doing Judo once a week since her last birthday (see just wanted to be able to attend the Xmas party and stayed on!).

Her breakfalls are good, she loves Judo roly-polies, and she 'knows' 2 throws but only the name of one of them Ippon Seeohmaggie as she calls it. She also knows 2 holds, but not their names. Even if she did Judo more than once I week I doubt there's much more she could have learnt at her age.

When she's 5 she can join the proper scheme for under 8's which is run to teach the kids the fundamentals of Judo ettiquette and Dojo behaviour, but there's no chance they'll learn the syllabus to enable them to get black belts.

I have known a couple of outstanding 8 yr olds who win tournaments, but they are usually lighter weights than others of their own age and so win in tournaments because they 'out-age' their opponents. This is fine for them when they are 'little' but causes problems later, often when they are approaching senior ranks and are still at the low end of the weight for their age.

Just last night we were talking about a similar subject and it was observed that when we go to tournaments you can often spot the kids who have been over-graded. They are the ones getting the bronze medals wearing their red competition belts, rather than their grade belts, so as not to show their embarassment that they have lost to yellow/orange belts.

joe yang
17th June 2003, 08:58
Anyone else know of a situation where, little brother or sister has to watch an older sibling train for a year or two. They can't wait to join. They act out and imagine they are in class, from the sidelines. When they finally do get to participate, it is like they all ready have the muscle memory dialed in.

I knew one kid, five years old. For two years, he used to stand on the sidelines and just twitch, but in his fantasy, he must have been doing it all. Mom and dad finally decided they could aford to pay for his lessons. The kid was amazing. I never saw anyone learn so fast, but if they had started him sooner, he wouldn't have been any farther along. But they would have been that much poorer.

Bushi Jon
18th June 2003, 21:27
Okay my three year old can perform simple kata. He follows me out every night when I practice and does my kata with me but as far as application no way would he be able to use it or he would have kicked his older brothers butt.

Pirahna
19th June 2003, 06:48
Joe,

I have that situation with my three step children - oldest boy (10) has been doing Muay Thai for two and a half years and started competing in open tournaments last year (won four out of six). His little brother (now 7) started mucking around and watching him at our gym, joined in and has competed three times placing twice. His learning curve seems to be steeper than his brother so all that careful watching and imitation on the sidelines seems to have paid off for him. Oldest girl (14) has also been training for a year but watched for a year previously before she had the courage to join in - now she competes and cannot get enough.

Definetely seems that gentle exposure with the kids finding their confidence is the way to go.

Soulend
19th June 2003, 07:16
We have precisely the same situation. My son, age 12, has been taking MA for awhile. My daughter has been showing interest too - her gymnastics class leaves much to be desired...but she sees my son's excellent teachers and their interaction with students, and wants some of that. Of course, I'm all about it. As for the black belt....he is a long way from shodan. When he meets my standards (which seem to be identical to the dojo's, weirdly enough), he will test. He has seemed to accept that belts don't mean squat anyway - he has already gotten a black belt in the quarter, from which he could not escape. But I recall lower ranked karateka giving me a run for my money as well back in the day - so we don't worry about it too much. Of course I'm proud when he gets a new belt, but then a belt doesn't mean too much on the street...unless it's a fan belt upside an attcker's head eh?

Striking Hand
19th June 2003, 07:20
I guess my Son gets bored with my forms training, too slow(most parts) and too complex motions for him.

But than I guess it is because of the CMA that I study, but he likes our fast explosive movements and jumps in the form.
:D

Youngest student with us is 13 and he is the son of our Instructor and the next generation, doesn't like to study though.

Cheers.

Onmitsu
19th June 2003, 08:49
Any instructor who promotes a child that young (below 5yrs old) to black belt is looking to promote himself and not the child. My opinion is that a minor (under the age 18) has to show exemplory character and maturity to be promoted to Blackbelt. Black belts are are the template by wich the rest of the students are judged. By that definition this Pakistani school must be so much diaper Poo!:D

Martyn van Halm
6th August 2003, 18:21
I sometimes helped out [assisted] with children aikido at our dojo. My instructor is great with children and they earn coloured belts up to 6th kyu, where they get the coveted white belt. And then they have to work their way up without changing belts until they reach Shodan level. I don't believe my sensei every graded someone for first dan before they reached the age of fifteen.

I believe martial arts training can help develop mental skills and co-ordination skills. It can also boost confidence in shy kids and deflate bullies. I have no children, but if I had I would see if the bug would jump and if they showed interest I'd enroll them in aikido.

pgsmith
6th August 2003, 22:44
Gotta ask yourselves why it works you up so much. So some shmo that tries to make a living teaching McArate promotes a 3 year old to get his name in the paper. Big deal. What everyone forgets is that belts don't mean diddly outside of your organization. And obviously his mean even less. Personally it just makes me shake my head and sigh. Then I'm over it and will probably never think about it again.

Laugh and go on folks!

Cheers,

Julian Gerhart
7th August 2003, 00:58
I have a friend who trains at a differant dojo across town from mine who started doing Aikido when he was 6 or so and know he is 17 and prepareing for his shodan exam. I believe it will take place before his 18th birthday to.

I assitst at my dojo's class for 6-8 year olds. We focus on ukemi, and the most basic and simple techniques. As long as you don't move to fast or get to complicated I see no reason why a small child shouln't learn a martial art. And there is nothing wrong with games once in a while. the games we play all help to instill one principle or another into thier little heads.;)

Nyuck3X
7th August 2003, 01:25
Can't seem to get through...

Sounds interesting though. A black belt that can't cut his own
meat or cross the street by himself. I wonder if he's potty trained?

:D

Peace

Bradenn
7th August 2003, 10:13
I know of at least one Japanese martial artist who received Menkyo Kaiden by the age of 13.

http://www.yume-dojo.org/takamatsu.htm

He wasn't part of a McDojo.

pgsmith
7th August 2003, 19:54
Mr. Nicols,
Is there any proof of that, or is it just oral history. Oral history can be quite enlightening, but doesn't constitute fact. The statement's presence on a web site does not constitute proof.

boku_wa
8th August 2003, 20:18
doesn't part of the criteria for black belt include breaking boards with kicks or punches? i'd still be pretty impressed if they could do that at their ages. not balsa wood...but "real" boards. :)

and speaking of attention spans, forget about the 5 yr olds, we have 11 yr olds with whom we have to struggle to keep their minds in class. granted, unfortunately, judo practice is not where they want to be to begin with...but even then they lack the maturity to wait it out and bear with the class.

Nyuck3X
8th August 2003, 21:09
and speaking of attention spans, forget about the 5 yr olds, we have 11 yr olds with whom we have to struggle to keep their minds in class. granted, unfortunately, judo practice is not where they want to be to begin with...but even then they lack the maturity to wait it out and bear with the class.

Exactly my point.
You can't trust a 3 year old to hold a sharp knife.
You can't trust a 3 year old to cross the street alone.
You can't trust a 3 year old to go to the bathroom at 3am.
But you're going to trust them with 20 different ways to
destroy a man? C'mon. Who's ego are we feeding here?
The child's or the teacher's?

Kids shouldn't even be punching the makiwara
until their bones are set.

Shodan-ho until 18. Then let them test for shodan.

boku_wa
8th August 2003, 21:11
addendum to this thread. 2 younger cousins of mine earned their bb's in tkd at a relatively young age (around 9-10 yrs old). neither one has maintained his/her interest or skill in it. never saw or heard either one of them having to truly "test" their skills either; so, can't say just how truthful or effective that grading was.

on another note, after the neighborhood get-together, i believe my wife informed me that 2 of the neighbor's kids (11 and 14?) also have bb's in tkd.

i'd hate to think they were products of a mcdojo...but....

when i think of bb's, i think that a person should not only have attained the technical expertise of that discipline, but also have ingrained the discipline within himself or herself such that the discipline is second nature.

my 11 yr old niece and i made a pact to strive for bb's in judo some day...God willing...and if my body holds up. :) i can guarantee that neither she nor i will get it in 2 yrs or 4 yrs. but when we do attain it, it will be worth its weight in black. :)

Julian Gerhart
8th August 2003, 23:29
I vaguely recal a class I was at once that was taught by Mary Hieni(sp?) sensei once where she mentioned an expierience of that she had during her early years in Japan with a 14 year old shodan. she said that he really earned it to. this would have been at either hombu dojo or shingu no less. I'm not sure how good my memory is though. Does anyone know what I'm talking about and/or how accurate I am?

Mushin San
8th August 2003, 23:43
I guess I am a slow learner. When I was 5 I was struggling with my hakama and obi and sitting in seiza for 2 hours.

Nyuck3X
9th August 2003, 02:00
When I was 5, I was struggling with what was in my hakama.:D

Good thing I was born a boy, otherwise I wouldn't have
had anything to play with.- Rodney Dangerfield

MarkF
9th August 2003, 12:15
Originally posted by Julian Gerhart
I vaguely recal a class I was at once that was taught by Mary Hieni(sp?) sensei once where she mentioned an expierience of that she had during her early years in Japan with a 14 year old shodan. she said that he really earned it to. this would have been at either hombu dojo or shingu no less. I'm not sure how good my memory is though. Does anyone know what I'm talking about and/or how accurate I am?

Other than knowing who Mary Hiney is, no I've not heard anything about that (I probably spelled her name incorrectly too).

Judo was and still is taught in schools in Japan, along with kendo, but mostly it is for physical education purposes, grading comes in later.

In 1952, the United States Judo Federation (dba The Amateur Judo Association) was founded. The age limit in 1954 to start judo training was 20 in the US. Some years later it was lowered to nineteen, then eighteen.

About the only thing which hasn't changed is the age of being graded. Eighteen seems to be the age for that, though the other judo organizations may have different criteria, but age is a major factor.

In budo, if the original MA to use the dan-i grading system finds some too young to hold such grades, I'd probably think long and hard before grading any child. However, the quickest to grade in judo (as far as I know) was three months to shodan, then two years total to godan. Sometimes, when you have it you have it. Exceptions will always be, well, exceptional. Then again, he was able to handily beat five godan to get there so hats off. That was a very long time ago, and after recently attending a national Jr. championship, there were a few shodan. Of course, the ages, or rather birth years to compete ranged from 1997 to 1984 inclusive, and the shodan were not juniors in anyone's mind.

The saddest thing I noted at that tournament was on the first day (all youngsters), was what appeared to be a six year old little girl. She had lost both her matches (double elim.), and she was running to keep up with here parents who were walking quickly ahead of her. She was crying, but it was a fake cry, no tears, etc. She was simply looking for acknoledgement from her parents who seemed almost angry.

I guess that long plane trip and hotel room was a waste of money, huh? After all, all she had to do to get there was be a state champion (there were other considerations as well, but they were all basically the same in success) at six years of age.

It is similar to a comment a veterinarian made when she was asked about putting down all those innocent animals. "Sometimes, I feel like putting down the owners of the animals."

I suppose in this case the same kind of sentiment can be made.

Bottom line, let kids be kids. Time goes by so quickly as it is, but they don't know it. Quit giving children an adults responsability. Most adults can't handle it as it is.


Mark