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Shadowronin
19th June 2003, 08:53
Hi all,

In various other threads, there has been much debate about titles, such as Sempai, Renshi, Shihan and Soke.

My question is this, if you are a student, how do you address your instructors?

If you are an instructor, how you like to be addressed, and how you address other instructors?

Just been playing on my mind.

Martial_Spirit
19th June 2003, 09:01
Unless otherwise asked to, I refer to all my instructors as Sensei (I train predominantly in japanese orientated arts).

Having said that, if all the other student refer to one instructor in a certain way (sempai etc) then I'll follow suit.

I've often been in situations where I've not been sure, so have had to ask, in particular when adressing people when we're off the mat (at a social).

Onmitsu
19th June 2003, 09:11
Hey guys, Nice to have you on board e-budo.
I was wondering, since we are talking about respect here, if not signing with your real names was a way that you two showed respect to both the owner of this forum and it's members? Just curious since this is not the first time that someone has asked.
There's an easy way to do this automaticaly. Just ask anyone.

signed,
"Hidden shadow Ninja of the invisible realm that can't hide his ISP address from the ADMIN".:D

Tripitaka of AA
19th June 2003, 09:58
While not wishing to sound like an echo, I think Greg's observation has highlighted a fundamental concept which relates directly to the question raised in the initial post.

Dojo etiquette, the rules and manners required of students toward their instructor and fellow students have developed for a variety of purposes. Trust, confidence and safety all depend on the attitudes of each and every student. By following the correct social manners of the group, you identify yourself as someone willing to assimilate. Someone willing to be taught, and capable of learning. An Instructor will be able to see at a glance just who are the keen students, and who are the lazy wannabes that expect everything to come without effort.

The etiquette for posting in this forum is made clear during registration. Posts must be complete with the full name of the person writing it. This is easy to set up as a "signature" which wil append itself automatically to each post. It's not like you have to type it all out each time.


I called my Instructor "Sensei". I called other instructors "Sensei" too, or sometimes by their name and the title "Paul Sensei" or occasionally "Sensei Paul". "Sempai" (a bit like a prefect, a senior student, someone higher than me in the pecking order) was rarely used, perhaps because it sounds like a title, and most senior students still feel unworthy of anything that sounds like a title. Actually, I think to a certain extent Shorinji Kempo has less of the hierarchy than some other arts, aand therefore people think less of the Sempai-Kohai duality and more of each other as Kenshi of equal merit but different stages of training. I know that to a Japanese person "Sempai" is in common usage all around (School, Work, etc.), so perhaps it doesn't feel at all strange to use it.

I was given the title "Jo-kyo" which I believe translates as Assistant Instructor. In our branch there was also a Captain and a Vice-Captain, who would deal with the registration documents and taking the roll-call.


I am your humble servant ;)

PwarYuex
19th June 2003, 12:08
In Bujinkan, I find the general preferance is: If you have studied in Japan a significant amount, with the significant people, you are referred to as "Sensei".

My instructor has spent much time in Japan, however, he says that "My name is Scott. Your name is Rob, we were given names for a reason, my mum never called me Sensei. You teach me as much as I teach you." Most new people to the dojo, who are familiar with Japanese customs, call Scott "Sensei or Sempai"... He just tells them that he isn't worthy of it, or he calls them Mr.... or Mrs....

With instructors, all the instructors refer to each other as their first name, unless they are in Japan, or a Japanese person is visiting.

I've also found that at all the Seminars I've gone to, the instructors teaching not only introduce themselves, but make a note on saying that they are *first name*.

Martial_Spirit
19th June 2003, 12:09
Sorry, didn't mean any disrespect.

StanLee
19th June 2003, 12:54
I refer to my sensei in and out of the dojo by his name. This was because all of the other seniors do this, and when I myself became a bit more senior I too use his name.

But in front of vistors I always refer him as Paul sensei to show respect. Also, when in front of new sensei that I do not know well at all or are god like in their status in aikido, it is always ____ sensei!

Stan

kaishaku
19th June 2003, 14:17
SHOGO (Titles)

In our organization we use several titles, including many of those listed above.

The correct use of various titles, at least within our organization, is explained in the link below. Notably, several other organizations use the same guidelines.

http://www.ykkf.org/2003/content/articles/ykkf_shogo.html

Regards,

Frederick Darren Smith

Evan London
19th June 2003, 15:01
In my organization there really are no rules pre se. Manaka Sensei is "Sensei" and everyone else pretty much goes by their first name, regardless of rank or teacher/student status. Upon initially meeting an unfamilial senior, I ususally call them "Mr. So-and-So" ,which usually recieves a "call be Bob" response. Of course some dojos may differ from this, but for the majority of the organization this is the norm. I presonally call my teacher "Dave".

Ev

Tamdhu
19th June 2003, 15:20
At the home dojo (for me) it's always first names all around. My instructors don't respond well to titles at all!

sean_stonehart
19th June 2003, 15:31
I refer to my instructor as Sifu or Sir... the senior students/instructors are just called by name like everybody else.

Phil Farmer
19th June 2003, 15:32
Our organization tends to use the word Sensei to refer to black belts. The reason is the meaning of the word, most often translated as teacher but its actual meaning is "one who has gone before". Sempai is also a term that is used from time to time but usually as a less formal address between dojo mates. It is simply a recognition of that person's place in the dojo. After that, we only have on person in our entire world organization that we refer to as Master and that is our worldwide head and son of the creator of Yoseikan, but in person it is simply "Sensei". Just a couple of yen for input. Sensei is a term that recognizes that person's commitment and experience.

Phil Farmer

gendzwil
19th June 2003, 17:12
Within Japanese-based arts, sensei or name-sensei is the normal way of referring to an instructor. As these terms are relative, they change depending on who is referring to whom and in what context. For example, someone with equal or slightly higher rank to mine is not my sensei but is a sensei to the juniors. So I might say, "Hello, x-san" and in the next breath say "Students, x-sensei is here to visit us and will demonstrate yadda yadda".

While sensei does in fact mean one who has gone before it is not commonly used to refer to someone with insignificant rank like shodan or nidan. In North American kendo people start referring to you as sensei around yondan, but they don't really think of you as sensei until rokudan.

Other titles such as renshi, kyoshi or dan rankings are often used when introducing someone or talking about them but seldom when addressing them. I might say, "this is x-sensei, he is hachidan hanshi", and then refer to him as sensei from then on.

A Japanese person would not normally refer to himself with any sort of title, even "-san". "Are you x-sensei?" "Yes, I am x".

Mike Williams
19th June 2003, 17:39
Excluding those in Japan or with Japanese instructors - do any of you ever address your teacher as sensei (or other Japanese honorific) outside the dojo?

If so, why?

Cheers,

Mike

Margaret Lo
19th June 2003, 17:47
Originally posted by Phil Farmer
Our organization tends to use the word Sensei to refer to black belts. The reason is the meaning of the word, most often translated as teacher but its actual meaning is "one who has gone before".
... Sensei is a term that recognizes that person's commitment and experience.

Phil Farmer

Yes "sensei" can be literally translated as "one who was born before". But what it MEANS is teacher or mister! It does not have a great signficance. In Chinese and I understand to a similar extent in Japanese, it is used like "Mister". So whether you are addressing a teacher or buying a lottery ticket from a man older than you or even your age, people may use sensei.

But in the English speaking world "sensei" has come to mean a martial arts teacher and taken on some pomposity. I think we should let some air out and just use it properly: during training and outside training use it or not depending on your relationship with students.

During training, my students always address me as sensei but address each other by name and do not use "sempai". Outside class, students closer to my age - 42 - call me Margaret while most of the ones in their early 20s are actually more comfortable being less familiar and address me as sensei. After they know me better, they feel comfortable using Margaret.

M

joe yang
19th June 2003, 17:56
Excluding those in Japan or with Japanese instructors - do any of you ever address your teacher as sensei (or other Japanese honorific) outside the dojo?


In Korean, we call our master Sah Bum Nihm, or my master, but that is only our master, and only the master who trained us up to black belt. If we relocate or change masters for some reason, or when we are addresing any other master, we say sir, or master, in English. We do say grandmaster, or Kwon Chung Nihm in Korean. My Sah Bum Nihm is now technically Kwon Chung Nihm, but is excusable if I slip and call him Sah Bum Nihm, it is almost a term of endearment, but I am sure to apologize.

David T Anderson
19th June 2003, 18:39
This is slightly tricky in my case, since Sensei has an honorific outside the dojo as well. Outside the dojo I would call him 'Father Skoyles'; inside it's simply 'Sensei'. In Email I usually address him as 'Father Skoyles - Sensei' but that is just because I tend to be formal in letters.

Sensei sometimes refers to the senior student in our dojo as Sempai...I suspect that anybody else who did so would get soundly thrashed by that worthy fellow...:eek:

Charlie Kondek
19th June 2003, 19:39
The head of the Detroit dojo, Tagawa-sensei has a nickname, "Duke." One time I asked his right-hand man (whom I call sensei, even though he is 4th-dan - he is sensei to me) where he got the nickname.

"I'm not sure," he replied. "I think it has something to do with John Wayne."

"Can I call him that?" I asked. (We were drinking beer at the time.) "What do you think he would do?"

"Try it!" said Watanabe. "Next time you see him, 'Hey, Duke-sensei!'"

Not me. I'm too chicken. I think I'd get a tsuki for such familiarity.

BTW, David, every time you describe Father Skoyles I get excited. He sounds super cool. An aikido teacher that is also an Episcopalian priest.

gendzwil
19th June 2003, 21:38
Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
BTW, David, every time you describe Father Skoyles I get excited. He sounds super cool. An aikido teacher that is also an Episcopalian priest.
Cowtown's full of them. The guy who founded the kendo club there is a buddhist priest who also owns a chain of Japanese fast-food restaurants (Edo Ichiban).

sean_stonehart
19th June 2003, 22:19
Outside the guan I could probably call him Mike, but I've only ever addressed him as Sifu, so it's Sifu outside. Besides, it's a bit familiar & he's never said "Call me Mike". Hell, I've never called a girlfriend's parent by their names even after being yelled at about it.

It's not a big deal with the fast talking & southern drawl, people don't normally recognize what I say anyway. :D

Vapour
19th June 2003, 22:20
I call my taijiquan instructor by his first name. However, once you become baishi student, I probably have to call him as sifu while training.

My Japanese judo instuctor, I call him sensei in dojo. Outside, everyone call him by his first name. So I do likewise in English but I just can't do that in Japanese so I call him by proper title. It's quite obvious to everyone else but I'm far more respectful to him when I'm speaking to him in Japanese. Some people find that funny but I can't help it.

I call my English aikido instructor as John outside of dojo. In dojo, I'm undecided so I don't call him by name or title. He don't insist on either ways.

To be honest, there are differece between martial arts and Japanese culture. I occasionally see some ridiculous example of westerner taking japanese culture too seriously without understanding the proper context.

For example, I have habit of addressing the head of aikido school as Sir and I do get corrected on this. But I do feel that it is somehow appropriate way of showing respect in English.

David T Anderson
20th June 2003, 02:43
Originally posted by Charlie Kondek

BTW, David, every time you describe Father Skoyles I get excited. He sounds super cool. An aikido teacher that is also an Episcopalian priest.

Father Skoyles is a truly remarkable individual, and that's not just dojo-hero worship either. If you ever come to Calgary, everybody is welcome to attend dojo...

icynorth
20th June 2003, 03:33
Any teacher I have had, it was their first name. Unless it was a formal event or a demo. So Sensei or Sempei when expected of whoever, when the time is right.

PaulP
20th June 2003, 04:58
We only use the title of Sensei for Head Instructors, all other brown and black belts are referred as Sempai.
The Kung Fu head instructor is called Sifu assistant instructors as Sihing (elder brother).
My first two clubs and many other's in our area, having a Black Belt entitled you to be called Sensei. I have that embroidered on my first black belt, Sensei insistant. That one stay's home.

Kimpatsu
20th June 2003, 07:44
Originally posted by Mike Williams
Excluding those in Japan or with Japanese instructors - do any of you ever address your teacher as sensei (or other Japanese honorific) outside the dojo?
If so, why?

Why should it matter if we're in Japan or the West, Mike? Shorinji Kempo for one is universal, and uses the same terminology no matter in which of the 28 countries where Shorinji kempo is practiced you happen to be.
To answer your main question: of course, we call our sensei by their title wherever we happen to meet them. Your parents are your parents both in and out of the house. If you encounter them in the street, they are still your parents. So it is with your sensei.

Rogier
20th June 2003, 08:14
It depends on the teacher. My first teacher (and owner of the school) is 60 and gives everyone the choice of calling him sensei, mr... whatever. I believe that just about everyone calls him mr..

For me it's quite natural as my parents taught me to show some respect to my senior by calling them mr. or ms. unless they request otherwise. As I've done this from a very early age I just can't seem to do anything else.

The other teachers have requested I call them by their first name. I keep calling my first teacher mr. purely out of respect. (not that I don't respect the others)

as for myself I ask all my students to call me Rogier... (I hate it when they call me mr. as it makes me feel old)

Gene Gabel
20th June 2003, 08:22
Originally posted by Shadowronin
Hi all,

In various other threads, there has been much debate about titles, such as Sempai, Renshi, Shihan and Soke.

My question is this, if you are a student, how do you address your instructors?

If you are an instructor, how you like to be addressed, and how you address other instructors?

Just been playing on my mind.
.......................................................
In our dojo:
Sensei is Sensei whether it is in class, outside, or in his home. The other instructors are called Mr.,Miss or in the case of the senior female insructor, Renshi.
Sensei usually calls me Mr. Gene in class and just Gene out of class. The other students for some reason call me Mr Gene San.. I haven't figured that one out yet. In Korean style I was Mr, in Kajukenbo I was Sihing. I have always liked Mr or Miss for the senior students and the appropriate title for the instructor.

I have always called my instructors by their title, and sometimes with their first name and title.

Last year I was helping judge a tournament and had no idea of the other black belts rank because there were: Kyoshi,Sempai,Deshi,Shihan,Hanshi,Sifu, Sensei,Master and one Soke. I didn't want to insult anyone so I called all of them "Mr".. Except for the Soke.. There was only one, so he was easy to keep track of.

Gene Gabel

:smilejapa

hyaku
20th June 2003, 08:28
I would just like to add that although I am in Japan and I have just finished a meeting with 120 Sensei, we dont all refer to each other as such. A lot with a long standing relationships call each other X san. Just depends how long you have known them, what group they fall into, how old they are etc.

On the other hand as i have said before its a well over used word but even Doctors get call San

I like my bank and the Securities Company best. I get to be called Sama! When I get announced at demonstrations its Dono!

As long as nobody calls me Kancho I could not give a chit.

Hyakutake Colin

Mike Williams
20th June 2003, 09:50
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
To answer your main question: of course, we call our sensei by their title wherever we happen to meet them. Your parents are your parents both in and out of the house. If you encounter them in the street, they are still your parents. So it is with your sensei.

That's what I was getting at. I find that a really interesting perspective (probably because it's so alien to me). To me 'sensei' is such a dojo-specific (or culturally specific) term that I would feel really weird using it outside the dojo. I could see it being used as a term of respect to a Japanese teacher, but to Bob Smith, Scunthorpe's top Karate instructor? As in "Sensei, let me buy you a pint?"

That's not to say that you shouldn't be respectful, if appropriate - but 'Mr. Smith' or even 'Sir' would seem more culturally appropriate to me.

What's everyone else's perspective on this?

Cheers,

Mike

PS: Apologies, to Bob Smith Sensei, if there really is a karate teacher by that name in Scunthorpe. ;)

Tripitaka of AA
20th June 2003, 11:11
As Kimpatsu described, Shorinji Kenshi are encouraged to use the appropriate term of Sensei both in or out of the Dojo. There are still some instructors who feel uncomfortable with this and may prefer to be on less formal terms. This is discouraged in the UK by our Chief Instructor, Mizuno Sensei, who will insist that instructors are referred to as Sensei by their students.

Making it standard and unambiguous makes it all a hell of a lot easier. If there are variations from one club to the next, or from one environment to another (is a Club disco an in-dojo or out-dojo setting?), then it can be quite a minefield. Make it plain and it soon becomes habit. It is so often the new instructor's discomfort with the title that makes the difficulty. They just have to face the fact, if you want to be an instructor, then it will be more than just "in the dojo".

The way I used to think of it is in comparison to a Doctor. I wouldn't call my GP (General Practicioner, family doctor, whatever you call it in your country) by his first name, but as "Doctor". It trips off the tongue without any hesitation and it feels appropriate in any location where I might meet him. He doesn't feel uncomfortable with it, as he's called Doctor by everyone and he's used to it.

Having said all that, as far as I recall, no-one really went a bundle on the other titles that you might find in a typical Japanese dojo. I only recall one particularly keen student who referred to me as Jokyo. I was flattered, and a little uncomfortable, but it DID act as a reminder of the responsibility I had, at all times.

kage110
20th June 2003, 12:59
Perhaps it is an age thing or just the family I grew up in but I have always tended to call people by their name rather than Mr, Mrs, Sir, Sensei, etc. To me it does not signify lack of respect because I try to treat everyone with respect at all times. My military and Merchant Navy background makes the use of 'Sir' quite comfortable too and I do use this when addressing people over the phone or in person if I don't know them and they seem quite formal. It is a sign of respect but not a sign that I think they are more important then me (in fact they are often asking me for a job so perhaps they should call me sir??:D Actually some do, which makes me uncomfortable as I am not old enough to be called that!)

In a MA context I have often called people 'sensei' in the dojo (Judo & Jujutsu) and 'Sifu' (Kung Fu) but this does not extend outside the dojo as the individuals involved have requested otherwise.

In the Bukinkan offshoot that I train in now first names are used all the way from the most junior to the most senior (including the head of the dojo graded 8th dan by Hatsumi-sensei). (Hastumi-sensei is always 'sensei' to me in any context.) Sometimes I refer to my immediate instructor as 'boss' or 'boss-man' but we are pretty close. In fact, if I ever call him 'sensei' it is as a joke and to wind him up!:p

Maybe it is just me and my free spirit but I get a bit suspicious of MA organisations outside of Japan who insist on the use of the term 'Sensei' in and out of the dojo as I feel that MA pratice should not be about adopting Japanese (or any other nationality's) culture wholesale but learning the important lessons from the culture and adapting them to your own circumstances. In Japan it would be natural for me to use the term 'sensei' everywhere and I would do so but neither there or in the UK would I expect my MA teacher to provide me with a life role-model as I tend to go my own way.

With respect,

Charlie Kondek
20th June 2003, 14:26
Originally posted by gendzwil
Cowtown's full of them. The guy who founded the kendo club there is a buddhist priest who also owns a chain of Japanese fast-food restaurants (Edo Ichiban).

Where's Cowtown exactly?

The late George Izui sensei of Chicago was also some kind of lay minister, I believe an Episcopalian. I wish I could have known him better while he was alive.

http://www.midwestkendo.com/izui.htm

A Japanese buddy of mine described practicing kendo at an actual Zen temple, and said there was rigorous zazen involved, and that the head kendo instructor was also a priest.

BTW, in the Americanized atmosphere of U.S. Judo, it's not uncommon to call your judo sensei "coach" or by his first or last name or some nickname. Every once in a while my nice kendo manners confront a Japanese person in judo, and they are always slightly surprised by my decent bow and nice "onegaishimasu."

gendzwil
20th June 2003, 16:14
Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
Where's Cowtown exactly?
Calgary.

Tripitaka of AA
20th June 2003, 21:27
I keep thinking that Calgary is that place where they crucified Christ and the other two blokes. I guess that must be Calvery, or is that a place where baby cows are born.... ooooh I am getting so confused. Did they have a Winter Olympics there? Calgary I mean! :)

gendzwil
20th June 2003, 21:31
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
I keep thinking that Calgary is that place where they crucified Christ and the other two blokes. I guess that must be Calvery, or is that a place where baby cows are born.... ooooh I am getting so confused. Did they have a Winter Olympics there? Calgary I mean! :)
Calvary is what you're thinking of. Calgary is a city of around 900, 000 people in Alberta, Canada. It is well-known for the annual Calgary Stampede rodeo (hence, Cowtown) and the 1988 Winter Olympics.

Tripitaka of AA
21st June 2003, 10:27
Sorry Neil, I was making a poor attempt at humour. Calgary is indeed well-known around the Globe and would be a welcome stop on many people's World Tour. I did not mean any offense to its inhabitants by my gentle ribbing.

How is Saskatoon these days? :) Is that some ancient Native North American place name? Does it have a translation?... err... could I get any further off topic? :)

Kimpatsu
21st June 2003, 17:18
What David Noble Sempai says regarding Shorinji Kempo is spot-on. At the Kokubunji Doin in Tokyo, everyone calls me "jokyo", including Sensei, because it's the same as referring to your GP as "doctor". If unfamiliarity is the cause of embarrassment, get used to it...

Tripitaka of AA
22nd June 2003, 11:30
....and Tony Jokyo calls me sempai because I came before... although he is now far superior in grade and longevity of training. It all makes sense really, honest!

Tony the Jokyo in Tokyo. You see, it is making sense already!

Synik
22nd June 2003, 16:17
Y'know, there are TONS of students training in Japanese arts who refer to their instructors as "Shidoshi, Shidoshi-ho, and Shihan". And of course, that's not only incorrect, but it's also gross. It's really comical too, to see some of these schools use specific titles (like Shidoshi) that aren't evident in their respective style. Here's an example:

--
[Faked IRC session]

NinjaTerror003: so what do you call your teacher?

Karateboy: oh, we just call our teacher "Sensei".

NinjaTerror003: oh really? well my teacher is above that, he's a "Shidoshi", so we call him that.

SkippytheGendaiKid: we call our American Karate instructor "Shihan", 'cuz he's really up there in rank (4th Dan I think). He also doesn't wear the normal black belt, he has a special red and white Shihan master instructor belt. His farts don't stink either, which is mysterious.

--

There is a guy who trains with us, who always calls the teacher "Sensei" - ALWAYS. See him in grocery store? "Hey Sensei, you buying some spaghetti too?". It's really out of place - BUT - this particular teacher has had such an impact on this particular person's life, that he wants to extend some higher order of respect when calling him out, both inside and outside of the Dojo. What do you's think of that? Should the teacher crack down on him and tell him that it's incorrect, impolite, or just out of place? (the teacher in this case prefers to be called by his first name)

Personally, I think those that can do, DO. And those that CAN'T, TEACH. With that comes all sorts of silly ranks and titles.

__________________
Tony Stevens

Soulend
22nd June 2003, 16:33
I have always called my assorted teachers 'sensei' both in and out of the dojo, except for my TKD teacher, whom I called 'Mr. Hong'.
To me this is correct, until told it is okay to address them otherwise. In the military I do the same, adressing individuals by rank, in or out of work and whether or not I outrank them. I was always taught that 'familiarity breeds contempt'...your mileage may vary.

renfield_kuroda
23rd June 2003, 00:54
I'm not entirely sure how right/wrong it is to use the Japanese language to address instructors in the US or any other country outside of Japan.
At least here in Japan I call my instructors either -san, -sensei, -bashocho (practice leader for those particular shidoin who run the practices I regularly attend), or Gosoke. I use the same Japanese inside and outside of the dojo.

Sensei is generally reserved for those shidoin who have some shogo (renshi, kyoshi, or hanshi, 6dan and above), everyone else is -san.

Regards,
r e n

Kimpatsu
23rd June 2003, 00:58
Originally posted by renfield_kuroda
(Snip) Sensei is generally reserved for those shidoin who have some shogo (renshi, kyoshi, or hanshi, 6dan and above), everyone else is -san.
So what do you call your dohai and kohai?

Chrono
24th June 2003, 03:45
Our dojo isn't very formal and our instructor hasn't requested to be called by anything, so I just call him by his first name.

Jon

Kimpatsu
24th June 2003, 03:47
Originally posted by Chrono
Our dojo isn't very formal and our instructor hasn't requested to be called by anything, so I just call him by his first name.

Jon
"Sen"? :confused: :D

Soulend
24th June 2003, 04:01
I'm not entirely sure how right/wrong it is to use the Japanese language to address instructors in the US or any other country outside of Japan.
I don't know, but then again if this is not the case we should probably not be using the Japanese language (for techniques, stances, attire, equipment, or relationships{such as sempai or kohai} outside of Japan either, nor should we really be using Japanese etiquette.

Just think, if we simply called our training attire 'kurotty suits', Tony wouldn't have to spend so much time insisting that people call it a dogi vice just a "gi" :D

Synik
24th June 2003, 06:44
Originally posted by Soulend

Just think, if we simply called our training attire 'kurotty suits', Tony wouldn't have to spend so much time insisting that people call it a dogi vice just a "gi" :D

Which "Tony" you referring to there pally? I think you misposted to the wrong thread - this isn't the "what brand of dogi do you prefer" thread, it's the "exercise self control like Ralph and resist the unnecessary urge to reply to every post" forum. :eek:

</fart>

_____________
Tony Stevens

<insert witty, paraphrased verbage here, and slap a sigfile sticker on it>

hobbitbob
24th June 2003, 18:32
The people who have been designated as instructors we call "Sensei." Everyone else is Mr. or MS. or MRS. so and so, especcially around the youngsters. Among Yudansha we use our first names. I have trained at a Dojo where everyone was Sempai or Kohai, in additon, they could all have been members of OA (Osu-aholics anonymous)! :D

Soulend
24th June 2003, 21:36
Originally posted by Synik
Which "Tony" you referring to there pally?
I was referring to Tony Kehoe, who is semi-famous for correcting people who use the term 'gi' instead of 'dogi'. As I have corresponded with him quite a bit in the past and consider him something of a friend I called him by his first name, which I would not have done otherwise. 'Pally'?


Originally posted by Synik
I think you misposted to the wrong thread -
If I misposted to the wrong thread, does that mean that I posted to the right one? No, actually I posted to precisely the thread I intended to.


Originally posted by Synik
it's the "exercise self control like Ralph and resist the unnecessary urge to reply to every post" forum.
:confused:
Uhh..this is my 3rd post in a thread 4 pages long, and one that I wouldn't have made at all except in response you your post. What does Ralph have to do with anything?

Soulend
24th June 2003, 22:00
this isn't the "what brand of dogi do you prefer" thread
Since I didn't participate in that thread I just went and had a look at it. Since you call it both a 'gi' and a 'dogi' in that thread I don't see how I could have been referring to you with my comment. As I don't know you, Mr. Stevens, I hardly would have called you 'Tony', nor can I fathom why you seem to have some sort of problem with me for posting something so innocuous anyway. Oh well, another for the ol' ignore list I suppose. :)

renfield_kuroda
25th June 2003, 00:49
Originally posted by Kimpatsu

So what do you call your dohai and kohai?

We call our kohai/senpai/dohai according to the same rules. Some examples to clarify:

* My Monday evening instructor (who's actually younger than I am, and we're the same rank, but she got promoted earlier) is Kanai-bashocho or just bashocho.

* The students (mostly college students) I teach on Tuesdays are called by their name or some nickname: Tanaka and Nakatani, who are always at practice together, I call Tanakatani-kun, Iwata-chan is also known as Gan-chan, Misawa-kun has such bad handwriting that the first kanji for his name looks more like "1 2" than "3" so we call him Ichinisawa-kun.
They call me bashocho.

* Niina-gosoke is just Gosoke, unless there could be some confusion between Niina-gosoke and Shiokawa-gosoke, in which case we say the name first.

* Naganuma (7dan kyoshi), Ando (7dan kyoshi), Sanno (6dan renshi), Tanaka (6dan renshi), and Yoshida (6dan renshi) are all sensei.

Hope this helps.


Originally posted by Soulend

I don't know, but then again if this is not the case we should probably not be using the Japanese language (for techniques, stances, attire, equipment, or relationships{such as sempai or kohai} outside of Japan either, nor should we really be using Japanese etiquette.

This gets into a whole other issue which I'm sure has been discussed at length before, and certainly deserves its own thread. I believe as much Japanese terminology should be accurately used as possible. This is easy when describing parts of the sword, for example, or kata names. Gets trickier when it enters the realm of 'culture'. Note for example the use/abuse of 'osu' in karate. (http://www.24fightingchickens.com/mu/osu/index.html)
I think it is nigh impossible to extricate the sublties of Japanese from the culture of Japan and use them correctly/accurately outside of that cultural context. Not to be elitist, but I think people like Miek Skoss could properly use the terms 'sempai/kohai', 'osoreiremasu', 'shitureishimasu', etc because he has a deep experience with the language. Same goes for Dave Lowry and a handful of others. But outside of that we get into situations where students call teachers using Japanese words in ways no Japanese would ever use...difficult subject, anyway, and short of everyone learning Japanese, no idea what the solution is.

Regards,

r e n

Kimpatsu
25th June 2003, 01:04
Thank you, Ren. I think you need to be an expert in genealogy to get all the terminology correct... ;)
Being called a friend by David (Soulend) Craik is the best news I've had in a long time. He's a man of intelligence and integrity. Why is "Pally" giving him a hard time? (Answers on a postcard, please...)
The situation is Shorinji Kempo is perhaps a little different from other styles, in that there are no stand-alone dojos; all branches are part of a single network, beholden to HQ. Consequently, we use Japanese terminology for everything including titles of address, commands, and techniques, as it is the official lingua franca of Shorinji Kempo.
HTH.

Soulend
25th June 2003, 04:07
Speaking of Japanese culture, Tony (KEHOE), looks like I may be headed back to Japan in January. Hope that you will still be around, and that your offer to get together still stands :)

I can see that many Japanese terms and titles are routinely and sometimes rather humorously used by Westerners ('World Sokeship Council', etc.), but isn't 'sensei' pretty cut and dried? Of course I am not Japanese, nor as knowledgeable as many people in the nuances of the language, but is there more depth to the term 'sensei' (teacher, one who has gone before) than what I am aware of?

Kimpatsu
25th June 2003, 05:14
"Sensei" implies one who has a sufficient body of knowledge to speak authoritatively on a subject, which certainly translates as "teacher", but it might be more accurate to say that "sensei" means, "one who has sufficient knowledge to teach" (i.e., the word describes a measure of potential, rather than the actual profession of teaching). School teachers can also be called "kyoshi", where the character for "kyo" means to teach or educate. People of erudition are commonly called "sensei" as a mark or respect, even though they do no teaching: doctors and lawyers, and other professionals, fall into this category. (The fact that lawyers can also be called "sensei" was actually a clue in a Japanese whodunnit on TV a few years ago.) Calling someone "sensei" also indicates that they started learning the subject in question before you did (cf: "sempai": senior student, "dohai": person of the same rank, and "kohai", someone who started after you), so are presumed to be better. Ultimately, calling someone in a position of respect "sensei" is like calling them "sir" rather than "mister" ("sir" is how we addressed teachers in school, remember?), but au fond, the term can, and is indeed often used, to mean "teacher". HTH.
And yes, let's drink Japan dry in January! :toast:

gendzwil
25th June 2003, 06:43
That's interesting, I didn't know kyoshi was used for school teachers. In kendo it is one of the formally awarded shogo (teaching ranks: renshi, kyoshi, hanshi) which are awarded seperately from dan-i. Well, sorta seperately - nobody gets hanshi before hachidan or kyoshi before nanadan.

Kimpatsu
25th June 2003, 08:46
Hanshi denotes superlative skill, Neil, so 7th dan is about right.
Some ass in the UK once called himself "hanshi", and Mizuno Sensei fell about laughing.
There is also a famous Japanese movie, based on Greek tragedy, about a teacher who sows the seeds of his own destruction by having an affair with one of his students. The movie is called "Koko Kyoshi" ("High School Teacher").

Cody
25th June 2003, 09:01
:eek: I didn't know ?‚?Z‹³Žt was based on a greek tragedy. I thought it's just another one of those "everybody dies in the end" type Japanese show.

Besides, it wasn't his idea to become a highschool teacher to begin with. I like to think Mayu's father's perversion was the culprit, not the loli-con kyoshi :p

Just my 2 cents. Woohoo, some pop culture that I know about!!

-Cody

Kimpatsu
25th June 2003, 09:20
Originally posted by Cody
:eek: I didn't know ?‚?Z‹³Žt was based on a greek tragedy. I thought it's just another one of those "everybody dies in the end" type Japanese show.

Besides, it wasn't his idea to become a highschool teacher to begin with. I like to think Mayu's father's perversion was the culprit, not the loli-con kyoshi :p

Just my 2 cents. Woohoo, some pop culture that I know about!!

-Cody
Hey, Cody. The parallels to Greek tragedy are my idea (I see pathos in everything :p ), but the notion holds water, I believe. Remember the rule of tragedy: the downfall of the protagonist must be due to a flaw in their own character. There must also be a sense of inevitability, that the characters are playing out a drama decided for them in advance by the Fates (i.e., they are rushing headlong to their destiny). So, first of all, our teacher wasn't strong enough to stand up to his father who decided his career path, and then he was so weak, he started sleeping with Mayu... Rather like Milton Buttle in Boston Public.
Best,

StanLee
25th June 2003, 09:24
Hey tony,

Which kempo branch do you train at? My brother just started training at the Baker st branch. I think he's planning to go along to the next trip to your hombu dojo.

Stan

Kimpatsu
25th June 2003, 09:32
Kokubunji Doin in western Tokyo.
I used to be the captain at Brixton, though.

StanLee
25th June 2003, 12:35
When are you back? I'll send him over to brixton.

Stan

gendzwil
25th June 2003, 15:51
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Hanshi denotes superlative skill, Neil, so 7th dan is about right.
8th dan, actually. There are no hanshi nanadan and quite a few of the hachidan are still only kyoshi - usually they get hanshi after being hachidan for a decade or two.

The kanji for hanshi translate to "exemplary/model person", in other words a person to emulate in every aspect of life. So superlative skill is just part of the equation.

Kimpatsu
26th June 2003, 01:00
Mizuno Sensei is nandan hanshi. Rokudan is jun-hanshi and hachidan is dai-hanshi.

renfield_kuroda
26th June 2003, 04:15
For those that can display Japanese:
kyoshi as in school teacher: ‹³Žt
kyoshi is in swordsman (higher than renshi, below hanshi, at least in Mugairyu Iaihyodo): ‹³Žm

The joys of a language with limited phonetics.

Just to clarify, I'm not against using Japanese terms outside of Japan. In fact, I'm all for it for Japanese martial arts. But to do so requires a commitment from students and teachers to make the effort to use the words correctly. If that means getting a basic, conversational mastery of the Japanese language, so be it. The hurdles one must learn to 'master' a koryu are high, indeed.
Anecdotal evidence seems to back up this theory: serious practitioners like Lowry, Skoss, and Alvarez are proficient in Japanese, or at least know hundreds of words, terms, and phrases such a conversation of martial arts is peppered with Japanese terms.

In Mugairyu Iaihyodo, all our English materials use Japanese terms excessively. All students testing for shodan (in or out of Japan) must know by hear, in Japanese: kata names, parts of the sword, basic cuts, holds, stances, and movements, as well as the Ideals and Student's Principles, and of course bowing and basic etiquette.
More advanced promotion exams require a knowledge, in Japanese, of the lineage and history of Mugairyu Iaihyodo, as well as various zen-related terms and more esoteric things like the ancient Chinese zen-philosophy poem penned by the founder's zen priest master, from which the name Mugairyu, as well as Suimokai and Koseikai, were taken.

Regards,
r e n

sepai 85
26th July 2003, 03:22
My sensei
I can not think of one single occasion that I have not called sensei's sensei. Inside the dojo and outside the dojo they have earned the title they have and I have a great amount of respect for that.

yours in budo

avehnor
26th July 2003, 07:05
Originally posted by Shadowronin


My question is this, if you are a student, how do you address your instructors?




During Class: Tucker Sensei

Outside Class: Hey, Old Man!!!

adroitjimon
26th July 2003, 07:26
Sensei only. Perhaps,in the future upon receiving 1st.dan
then and only then Mike...