kicking while jumping?

[Bob van Tuyn]

Hi guys,

This is my first thread so bare with me .

I have a question and I want to hear your thoughts about it.

My sempei always warns us about kicking while jumping in a fight. Far example a jumping ushiro geri or for that any other kick while jumping. Because when you are in the air you can be swiped and you have no balance. So he always prefers kicking while you have your feat on the ground.

But when you look at TKD they use jumping kicks often, and it seems effective??

So my question is: To jump or not to jump.



Bob van Tuyn

[Shitoryu Dude]

There are many, many reasons to not kick while jumping and very few for it. Looks good, but it places you at a severe disadvantage.

First off, you are committed to your action - once airborn there is very little you can do until you make contact with the ground. Secondly, it robs you of your power. Unless you are landing directly on top of somebody all your energy is going DOWN and not toward your target - you cannot transmit near the force in this manner. And yes, your opponent can do all sorts of crap to you while you are jumping.

The only jumping kicks that are practiced much in most karate dojos is what is commonly called a "chicken kick". This is a kick to straight ahead with a fake kick (leg not extended) used first to give you lift. As you reach the terminus of your ascent you kick again with the other leg. Sort of give you the look of climing in mid air and mimics how roosters will jump up and fight each other. You can practice this to give you either height or distance. Sometimes this is done with a simultaneous kick to the rear and combined with a backfist to the front opponent.

I would advise listening to your sensei unless you want to study TKD.

:beer:

[gmanry]

I'll bite, however, to all the detractors of jumping kicks, let me qualify that I am giving a best case scenario here.

Here we go:

Most of what Harvey says is true, and overall jumping kicks are to be avoided in any type of real situation of danger.

Originally, I believe, jumping kicks were devised as the unexpected. When used properly (and I can't stress that enough), jumping kicks can provide some tactical usage.

The first issue is that jumping kicks are usually thrown incorrectly. Usually there is the windup, the jump, and the kick, the horrible feeling of being upside down and the impact of the ground on one's head.

In TKD, you never see the windup, my instructor had me practice until I could do them with what seemed like no perceivable windup to most people (didn't help me against him). It is disguised with footwork and executed after you have your opponent either committing or backpedalling. On a rarer occassion you can use them from an angle and just execute it on the blind target, but this is usually an indication that your opponent is grossly outclassed.

Execution: Jump spin back kick. Fade back or shift forward, at that point collect your potential energy through all your joints, this decreases the obvious bend in the legs. Start your spin, spring off your ankles and use that stored energy to launch your self in the direction you were already going (forward or back). You can bring the legs up, but if you didn't you would only clear about 2 inches (not much of a jump).

The loss of power not being connected to the ground is made up by an increase in power through speed and shift of all body weight (if you are pursuing the target). Jump kicks can be faster than standing kicks by a noticeable amount. So, they can hit hard. Harder than standing kicks? I haven't seen any convincing evidence one way or the other, physics may be on the side of the standing kick. I do know I have seen a man killed with this technique, and it was a sad event. :(

Why they work in TKD. First and foremost, in TKD you can't grapple. However, you can jam with your body, and usually people will go down. (The good ones will still hit you with a spin heel or the back kick and do some damage.) So the situation is rigged, because it is competition.

The key is to be super loose throughout your body and make your opponent move incorrectly and catch it in the kisser. They generate the power for the knockdown for you in a lot of cases. The one time where they can be useful is if you go off balance and have nothing to lose, they can screw up your opponent and give you the time to recover.

So Pros: very fast and deceptive if used properly
Cons: easy to screw up, leaves you very vunerable

[Shitoryu Dude]

If you only get two inches off the ground you might as well stay there :laugh:

I'd also like to point out that the majority of spinning kick techniques look far more impressive than they are usefull. While you should know how to use a spinning or back kick, and practice them frequently, don't bet your butt on using them often in kumite or a real fight. I've know more than one person whose spinning kick would take your head off, but never managed to make one connect and usually got his butt handed to him after his opponent dodged the first one or two and then just waited for him to try it again.

I've only seen one person who could make them work as advertised, and he was just too damned fast to be believed. In one full contact competition he sent 4 people to the hospital that way without ever taking a single hit.

:beer:

[gmanry]

The purpose of the jump is not to get high in the air. ;) It is to break contact with the ground and increase speed and total commitment of body mass. With a spin heel kick, being in contact with the ground doesn't do much to increase power like it does with a back kick or round or front kick.

A good spin kicker would never attack with the kick, so there shouldn't be much blatant "dodging" by the target; you should be catching them coming in or goig out. However, definitely, they are completely risky techniques. The master of these techniques is a master of distance and timing, as with all techniques.

One of the best executions of a spin kick I saw was at the '93 FL state TKD Championships in Tallahassee, FL. His name is Lenny (last name unknown) he trains under Master Park in St. Petersburg/Largo FL.

He set up his opponent with a left round kick, driving him back and to the opponents rear left. Switched up to a right spin heel so the opponent was moving into it. Connected, scored knock out, came out of the spin, switched up a again and scored a second left round kick to the head before the opponent hit the ground. "Flawless Victory"
It was over before it started, as they say.

Lenny was a regular at the Nationals, played the Pan Am games, and tried out for the national team more than once, making alternate on one occassion I believe. In other words he was very, very good.

[Shitoryu Dude]

Well, then - if you are going to train for jumping kicks, make damn sure you do them extremely well or somebody is going to whup your ass.

I think I'll stick to something more basic and less likely to land me on my ass.

:beer:

[Gene Williams]

Combat is a game of odds in which simple and direct is generally better. Spinning and jumping kicks do not improve your odds in combat, they take more time, more energy, and leave you vulnerable in several ways. Now, just because a few people have gotten lucky and hit someone with a spinning or jumping kick is no reason to spend time trying to become so fast at it that you might be able to also. Again, the odds are against it. Your time would be better spent working on reverse punches and lunge punches and front kicks and how to get out of the way. Now, if you want to don your freshly pressed and starched black trim gi with ten patches and do some spinning kicks for the girls and kids in the crowd, have at it...oh, and don't forget the gold neck chain. Gene

[gmanry]

Guys,

This is just a discussion...geeze.

Look, it's clear that the person who started this thread wanted some information about the subject. I provided that information. Personally, I don't train for that type of technique much anymore. Occasionally I will come back to it for the fitness aspect every once and a while for a change of pace.

It is also clear that you don't approve of them, and that is cool.

Bob, just so we are clear, jumping kicks are usually a counter offensive technique used in specific situations. To become good at them a fighter generally reconstructs those instances in practice and drills them. They should not be used for offense very often, and then only when you have set a person off balance through some other tactic.

As Harvey states, you had better get it right and have somebody who knows how to train you properly in their usage.

95% of the time you should stick to the tried and true of fighting in the ring. In SD, jumping isn't very useful in the typical sense that we are discussing here, particularly for kicks.

That's about all I can say on the subject.

[Samurai am I]

I was always told to save the TKD(spinning & jumping) moves until
your opponent is about to go down as kind of a finisher. A lot of the
spinning and jumping moves can be pretty devestating if executed properly. I've never tried them in Kumite though.

[Bob van Tuyn]

Thanks for the information,

First I want to thank every body that replied to this thread.

When I read the replies I come to the conclusion that jumping kicks are good for practicing balance, speed and cardio. But should be avoided in kumite or tournaments, unless you are really good and your opponent is tired and off balance.

There will always be fighters who have mastered techniques that are usually very difficult to apply in kumite so I don’t want to go so far as to say that jumping kicks are not to be used in kumite but I think I will listening (as always) to my sempai and keep my feats on the ground (unless a kick of my sparring partner sends me flying in the air :D )

Bob van Tuyn

[MAGon]

Just my two cents worth on the topic (From somebody that makes no claim to fame beyond being an interested Karate student): Some years ago one of the sempai from my dojo started experimenting with the jumping spinning back kick. Although a Shotokan stylist (In which style jumping kicks are, at best, frowned upon), he'd experienced them on the receiving end in open competitions from TKD fighters. So as a lark, he started playing with this particular kick. This fellow was a "natural", very fast, agile and powerful and a pretty successful tournament fighter, who'd also been forced to fight in SD situations (Succesfully). In the beginning, he often said (Remember, this was a Shotokan dojo, where he was often asked what the heck he was doing wasting his time messing with that jumping garbage for anyway) that he was playing with the kick out of curiosity, but that he had little faith that it would do much for him. After a couple of months, though, he'd developed what looked to be a pretty hard- to- stop kick, so he started using it with us during kumite. To the surprise of all of us (Including him), the way he executed that darn kick (I was on the receiving end of it many a time, more on his method of execution below) was very hard to stop, and hit like a freight train. After trying it and re- trying it in the dojo, he was confident enough to take it to tournaments (Some of these open internationals, with fighters from multiple styles and different countries) where, again, opponents found it very hard to stop (I never saw or heard of his being seriously checked with this kick, despite Shotokan doctrine that jumping kicks are just head dives waiting to happen!), and with which he won many a bout. BUT... In my view the technique worked as well as it did partly because of his natural talents and partly because he'd thought it through:

1. This guy was so fast and powerful that, even if you saw it coming and blocked and/ or evaded, it would jar you so hard that counter attacking the kick as it happened was impossible (At least for me and the other fighters he ever used it on).

2. In one of his only two methods of execution, he'd have you on the run from previous attacks before he went to the jumping back kick, or...

3. In his other mode, this guy had the wherewithal to launch the kick from a standing guard with little to no wind- up, so that it was unexpected.

4. Never, EVER, did he use it twice in one bout, whether it worked or not.

The flip side to this is the story of another of the sempai, also a very good tournament fighter with street experience. He was second only to the first fellow, in part because he'd been at it for a year or two less, in part because he was of slighter build and less powerful. After he saw that it worked for his dojo mate, he decided to copy it. After developing it on the heavy bag, he tried it out at the dojo. THIS guy, though, had everything the other fella did EXCEPT the power. The end result was that it was MUCH easier to counter. On one occasion he scared ten years of life out of me when he tried to nail me with the kick in kumite. I evaded and blocked it, and since he lacked the power to jar me in spite of missing, I was able to move in as he was coming down and foot swept him just before he landed. The results were dramatic. His own momentum helped my sweep to the point that he seemed to swivel in mid air, BOTH feet came level to his head and he appeared to land smack on his face, which horrified me in that I thought I'd be responsible for a good friend smashing his face against that hard floor. Luck was on our side in that he managed to get his hands up to cushion the fall a microsecond before he hit, but he was stunned to the point of not being able to react for some seconds. I believe that had this happened to him in a street confrontation, that would've been it. He DID continue to experiment with it at the dojo and even tried it out a few times in tournaments, but finally gave it up.
Sorry I've been so long winded, but I thought these two stories were good proof of what others have already said in this thread:
Jumping kicks CAN work if you put the work in to master it, if used sparingly, with good execution, if set up cunningly while the opponent is on the run, and/ or if it comes as a surprise AND you manage not to telegraph the move and, finally, if you are able to generate the raw POWER needed for the move to be effective. Otherwise (Note all the "ifs" above)... I hope you have a hard head!!!
Yours truly lacks the guts and ability to even think about trying!!!

Miguel Gonzalez

[Jock Armstrong]

Gene, spinning kicks are like any other tech- if you use them at the right time and you are good at them they will work for you. I've used spin back kick in the street and believe me I put the baddie away. He broke, my friend. I didn't use them often but- when oppurtunity knocked....well.... As for the TKD jumping type stuff, the koreans developed them for use against cavalry [ie. flying side kick]- working as a team, one would launch himself at the enemy, dislodging him and two others would finish the baddie on the ground. Its all a matter of perception and training. Lots of people from trad japanese background don't use or don't like them- no sweat that doesn't make them les of a Martial Artist. They just emphasise different tech. My original instructor [Goju Ryu] didn't know a spin kick from a coke can till he saw "Billy Jack" back in the seventies. Then he set out to learn them. I've seen him drop baddies in the street with various tech from a good elbow to the face to spinning crescents- security work in a rough little cowtown with a military garrison is not much as career choices go but it certainly provided a lot of experience . BTW he just retired from the army where he taught CQB- where they DO NOT teach jump or spin kicks because they are in appropriate because of the loads soldiers carry and more important they take a long time to learn to do skillfuly.
Anyway enough rant- if your fav tech is the overhead spinning head butt with half gainer good luck to you. If it works, its good.

[Shitoryu Dude]

Reverse and lunge punches are for tournament only. Any old time sensei will tell you that they didn't exist for the most part until fighting for points became a big thing.

While you can generate enough power with a reverse punch to break ribs, the body mechanics of doing so typically leave you very exposed to an attack. Go watch some videos of full contact tournaments from the old days, they punched very differently than what you see in most dojos anymore. Oftentimes they don't teach the "real stuff" until you hit shodan.

:beer:

[Gene Williams]

Doing a spinning kick or other such busy stuff is like trying to shoot an enemy with a rifle by trying to ricochet the bullet off of th rock next to him instead of aiming directly at him. Harvey, I guess you and I have a very different view of oi zuki and gyakuzuki:D They work fine if done properly, street or dojo. You don't just walk in with a reverse punch, leaving yourself exposed, but combined with tai sabaki or a block or grab, it is very devastating. Anyway, you guys train any way you like, I'll remind you again that combat is a game of odds, and spinning and jumping techniques do not improve the odds that you will be successful in combat. Have at it, good luck. Gene

[Jock Armstrong]

With respect Gene- spin kicks work. If you don't want to use them fine. I've used them for real in combat situations and I'll let you in on a secret- I gave oi tsuki away a long time ago. I spent around ten years wading through blood and teeth in bars full of idiots and I've rum the gamut of tech- chokes, strangles, punches, kicks and throws and I've never once used an oi tsuki. your point on tai sabaki is spot on however.

One question [and I'm not trying to be a smart ass]. Have you ever trained in using spin kicks? They are a useful addition to the arsenal and really hone balance and timing. Even if you never use one in combat, they are good for that alone:beer:

[Gene Williams]

Jock, Back in the old point tournament days, one of my biggest point getters was a spinning ushiro geri to the body, followed by gyakuzuki for good measure. I'm sure I could hit someone in the street and do real damage with it. I think everyone is missing my point about odds. A skilled, clever fighter can make anything work. My contention is that simple is better. Why would you do a technique that required that much energy, turning your back on your opponent,and leaving a pretty large vulnerable spot, when you can do just as well with more direct techniques. One of my best student's lived for someone to spin on him because he just slid inside and pounded their ribs or kidneys with a gyakuzuki. It is popuar in these forums for people to list all the fights they've been in, all the carnage they've seen, and all the devastating techniques they have used. Without referring to you personally, I believe about one-fourth of it. Aside from being tacky and sophomoric, it misses the point, too. Anyone can get lucky, skill can make anything work. But, you were a soldier as I was and you know that the more complicated a maneuver, the more that can go wrong. Oh, and I'm not talking about text book JKA oi zuki. I'm talking about lunging techniques generally, often combined with grabs, etc. Thanks, Gene

[Shitoryu Dude]

I prefer tripping and hitting people while they are still blowing hot air getting their nerve up. Kicks to the balls and knees work wonders - why get busy trying something fancy when half the time my jeans won't permit the range of motion anyway or I'm wearing sandals?

I quit tournament competition in 1986, so I figure the odds of my getting into fight with a skilled opponent are pretty low. Most people have never studied MA at all, much less practiced recently. I'll leave the tricky kicks and techniques for the dojo and rely on solid basics and a 9mm.

:beer:

[sepai 85]

K-keep
I-it
S-simple
S-stupid

I mean no disrespect to anyone on this board so I ask your forgiveness in advance. I dont have a problem with jumping or spinning kicks they have there place in kumite, but it is important to relize on the street you will be under a lot of pressure and the adreneline will be flowing.a kick to the knee will finish a confrontation in a matter of seconds. Please dont get me wrong I have been knocked back by jumping a spinning kicks because if done properly they can pack a hell of a kick.

Yet again no disrespect intended
thank you for your time

[Goju Man]

Hello all, I've seen spinning and jumping kicks used effectively in certain scenarios. They have always been where the talent differential was very one sided. However, against a similarly skilled opponent, your chances are much smaller. I've just been watching the Kyokushin Worlds a couple of days ago, and though you see a few spin kicks, no one had been ko'ed by them. I have seen, as Gene has pointed out, reverse punches and lunge punches do more damage, even against a skilled fighter. I personally use more boxing style punches, but would depend on a good reverse punch over a jumping kick anytime.

[larsen_huw]

I personally wouldn't use a spinning kick in a self defense situation, but i do like to use them occasionally in sparring. I just don't quite feel comfortable enough with the spinning kick to use it when there's more than dojo pride at stake!

I can see that a running, jumping kick could have its uses as a suprise attack in a self defense situation. It would allow you to close a relatively large distance in a short space of time and maybe catch an opponent off gaurd. But i don't actually practice this type of kick, so for all i know there's something about the technique which makes it unsuitable for the purpose i suggested above.

[Jock Armstrong]

It all comes back to the same thing- use what is appropriate for you and the situation. The most common kick I used was a front thrust kick but I occasionally nailed a baddie with roundhouse to the head, spin back kicks to the torso. Most often I used short punches and locks, or sleepers. If the target is there take it.:beer:


Aaaaaahhhh.......guiness.......