PDA

View Full Version : Tieing the sageo



Dale
17th September 2000, 02:45
G'day
I have a problem of vanity. I recently bought a new katana and the sageo is tied beautifuly. I know it is only aesthetic but I would like to know how to tie the sageo before I untie it.
Can anyone help me or direct me to a site or book that can?

I am also curiuos to find out how everyone prefers to secure their sword in the obi (using the sageo).

Thank you in advance.

Yours in Budo
Dale Elsdon

Tony Peters
17th September 2000, 10:39
Gordon & Draeger's book on the Japanese sword has a big section on tieing the Sageo. Personally I use mine to keep my sword in the saya but mine sword is a bit loose. also check the aikido/sword Faq web site as I know there are some drawing there

socho
17th September 2000, 20:10
You might check the instructions at this link for a few options http://japanesesword.homestead.com/files/nihonto.htm
It is Rich Stein's Japanese Sword Index and is a wealth of information. Enjoy.



[Edited by socho on 09-17-2000 at 08:12 PM]

Neil Hawkins
17th September 2000, 23:28
Dale

If you don't have access to "Japanese Swordsmanship" let me know, and I'll copy the section for you and give it to you in Perth.

As for securing in the obi, different schools have different methods. I usually just wrap the sageo around the saya a few times, some schools tie the sageo to the obi (or hakama ties) at the front, others tie the sageo to the obi at the side above the saya. Who ever you're taining with should be able to tell you how they prefer it done.

Neil

Tony Peters
18th September 2000, 00:14
A sempai of mine taught me a method of tieing the sageo to the Hakama ties (forget the name for those right now). Give yourself about 4-5 inches of Sageo, push a loop up from the bottom side until it comes out the top, put a loop of the tail through this loop and tighten by pulling gently but firmly on the end that leads to the saya. To remove simply pull the free (tassled) end and voila its free.

Brent Easton
18th September 2000, 05:06
Tony,
I was taught the reason for tying the sageo in the manner you described was to avoid an opponent(s) grabbing your saya and being able to control you. With that tie you can quickly release the saya.

Brent Easton

Dale
18th September 2000, 10:07
Thank you all very much for your replies they are most helpful!



Yours in Budo
Dale Elsdon

Gil Gillespie
19th September 2000, 16:20
Tony, years ago I was taught to secure the sageo as you mentioned. It was part of our opening ceremony, so it was done in seiza facing the kamiza and without looking at it. Took some practice.

For the last few years we have affiliated with MJERI which merely tosses the sageo over the saya dropping behind it between the obi. Unfortunately it means ditzing with it throughout your training which seems sloppy and unfocused. I mean the sageo is there for a traditional purpose, right, and we're not removing it as a vestige.

Last year Shimabukuro Sensei assured me that it was acceptable to secure the sageo as you mentioned if we wished. Since it is not seen as a transgression of etiquette or form I have returned to tying the end with the looped slip knot you mentioned.

A side question for all: My sageo is an exceptionally thick "fluffy" one, still tightly woven but about 5/8 " wide and almost 1/4" thick. I have been unable to find one like it, even in 2 trips to Japan (inc Kamakura). Any help would be appreciated. It's rotting through now. I've had to slide a few inches of healthy cord through the kurigata but now my ends are uneven. Ahhggh, the shame of it.

Dojorat
19th September 2000, 18:08
Greetins,

This may be an entirely new thread but...

Something that has been reiterated many times here and in other martial arts circles is you can't learn martial arts from books and/or videos and you shouldn't "mix" martial arts.

Does tying a sageo knot count? If not, why not? and where do we "draw the line?" Why is it permissable to learn/adopt this practice (sageo) from a textbook and not some other facet of training? At what point in sword etiquette and technique do we mandate that instruction must come personally and directly from a bona fide instructor? and what's learned for one "school" does not apply to another, as if an Eishin Ryu sageo was different than that of a Toyama Ryu stylist. I've been exposed to different schools where, among myriad other details, a very big deal is made over where the thumb should be placed wrt the tsuba, how far the sword should be rotated and at what point during the draw.

These types of comments are not limited to my (very limited) practice of sword arts either. I've found them in other weapons schools and empty hand practice as well.

One thing seems to hold true (and this is reinforced by the comment attributed to Shimabukuru Sensei). The more learned, experienced and skilled the instructor, the greater their ability to recognize what really counts in the art(s) and not get hung up on the small inconsequential details (not to insinuate that this is any of that). These rare individuals are much more familiar with the wide variety of approaches to similar ideas and the reasons why they have chosen to follow a particular path if for no other reason than out of respect for their teacher(s) and their particular method.

For what it's worth, until my instructor tells me differently, I use "Japanese Swordsmanship" as my guide. What's good enough for Otake Sensei is good enough for me...

Cheers,

Tony Peters
19th September 2000, 23:02
On a recent trip to japan I was exposed to another faction/sect/whatever of Eishin ryu than the one I practice. The Katas were for the most part the same though like all differant schools there were little things that were differant, the end of O chiburi being the most obvious I like the way they do it better but since i don't practice there full time I will fill that away and practice the way my sensei wants me too. the sensei in Japan succeeded in completely changing my stance (for the better) which my sensei here noticed and complemented me on. Though I still have a hip direction problem I am now much lower and deeper in my stance. The truely differant thing about the folks I trained with in Japan was there (in my opinion) complete disregard for any method of securing the end of the Sageo. So much that many of those using live blades instead of iaitos were using a short sageo that barely dropped below the rear of the Saya. Personally I thought it looked rather unfinished and sloppy but who am I to judge my seniors especially since I received so much good instruction from them. It is truely amazing what you can learn when you are exposed to differant ways of thinking. I also picked up a flat braided black silk Sageo while there that has made tieing and using it much easier...though it was a lot more expensive than I had expected (the priceyou pay for quality I guess). I'm rather pragmatic about tieing my sageo, it needs to be simple and it needs to stay put. Beyond that the rest is fluff IMHO. Having a good Sageo makes all the difference in the world. I have not had a problem losing/fouling my sageo in Tatehiza since I got my new one

BradfordE
20th September 2000, 15:14
Under the stream of MJER I study, securing the sageo is actually a part of the seated bow before class. After (this is all performed in seiza)bowing into the sword, the sword is inserted into the obi. With the right hand holding the tsuba to keep the sword still, the left hand drops the sageo over the saya in which it is brought back under & then tucked in the hakama ties so the remainder of sageo (only a few inches) neatly lays out. The top portion is then pulled out to form a nice loop.

Never been good at explaining the technical side of Budo;)

Regards

Bradford Pomeroy

Gordon Smith
21st September 2000, 16:46
As a point of interest, I've been told (and from several photos/videos I've seen, believe) that when training "traditionally" (read whatever you like into those quotes), you should not have a sageo on your sword until sandan.

I think it's to promote focus on the technique, and to remind you not to worry about the ornamentation.

-G-