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cheunglo
23rd June 2003, 10:27
I am going to make the case to bring back organised inter-dojo randori, encourage someone to write a rebuttal and ask for a vote by the Shorinji Kempo kenshi participating in this forum.

Everytime you run a randori contest there is an increased chance of injury. After an accidental death, Hombu made the decision to ban inter-dojo randori competitions. Certain analogies are immediate: there are many accidental deaths each year from crossing the road – should crossing the road be banned? There is an obvious difference: crossing the road is a necessary everyday activity, randori is not. OK, what about water sports? I recall a story in the (UK) news not too long ago about the accidental deaths of some school children related to water sports, should all water sports be banned?

As with everything, there is a risk-reward balancing act that needs to be done with randori. I have stated the risks, what are the rewards?

Does randori improve your ability in self defence? The short answer is no. The long answer, is yes, but only marginally and the benefits are not different to any other type of training, such as embu. What then are the benefits?

1. Randori teaches you about how you behave when something you really want (ie. win) is on the line.

2. Randori teaches you about how you behave when there is an increased risk you might get hurt.

3. The art of risk-taking is a life skill. It is not taught in schools, nor by parents but instead by peers (your friends saying “I dare you to…”). The ability to take risks is an absolute requirement to meet the goal on the front page of the Dan grade syllabus: “Give me leaders, not followers.” I hope it is not contraversial to say that it is better for dojos to teach the art of risk-taking than your adolescent peers.

4. Randori is still the closest tool that we have to replicate the adrenaline conditions of self-defence. If you find that you are as good as you expect, well bully for you. If you find that you are not as good as you thought - this is a lesson that is pure gold.

5. In the long term, participating in randori competitions allows you better control over your ego. Twenty years ago, BSKF organised about 2 or 3 inter-dojo randori contest every year. I remember thoroughly enjoying these events. In fact, I think it was where I met kenshi like Steve Williams, Adrian Foster-Starr, Paul White etc… Many of the younger shodans now have no experience of randori competitions. It is natural for them to wonder what it is like and how they measure up. When they do participate in scored randori, they treat it as something different to normal training and have tremendous difficulty controlling their desire to win at any cost. I don’t know about you but this seems like a bad thing to me.

Yes, randori increases the risk of death and injury. However, I assert that the better way to deal with this is by making it safer, not by banning it completely. How do you make it safer? Forbid certain strikes or targets? If you do this then won’t people train to fight this way and eliminate the benefits? No! Make it not so. Randori is just a training tool – but a training tool mainly for the mind, not the body. If used in this way then we get most of the benefits whilst minimising the risks.

I invite any kenshi to make the argument for maintaining the ban on randori.

In addition, I am soliciting your vote: Yes (to bring back randori) or No (to maintain the ban).

luar
23rd June 2003, 11:28
Originally posted by cheunglo
3. The art of risk-taking is a life skill. It is not taught in schools, nor by parents but instead by peers (your friends saying “I dare you to…”). The ability to take risks is an absolute requirement to meet the goal on the front page of the Dan grade syllabus: “Give me leaders, not followers.” I hope it is not contraversial to say that it is better for dojos to teach the art of risk-taking than your adolescent peers.
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I am out to lunch on randori competitions in general because I recently heard some intersting arguments with how it conflicts with our core philosophy. However, I do not wish to comment on that at this time. Instead I have very strong exceptions about how risk-taking is defined by peer pressure.

A leader chooses to lead and with that choice comes risks and a desire to become a contributer and enroller of their vision. For a leader, the risk taking comes when they are totally clear of the vision they want to create and the sense of urgency to do whatever it takes to get there. A person can also be a leader if they choose to take a stand that is against the majority position. Since this is also a form of risk taking I cannot understand how peer pressure comes into play. In fact, peer pressure probably does more to suppress leaders than to raise them.


5. In the long term, participating in randori competitions allows you better control over your ego. Twenty years ago, BSKF organised about 2 or 3 inter-dojo randori contest every year. I remember thoroughly enjoying these events. In fact, I think it was where I met kenshi like Steve Williams, Adrian Foster-Starr, Paul White etc… Many of the younger shodans now have no experience of randori competitions. It is natural for them to wonder what it is like and how they measure up. When they do participate in scored randori, they treat it as something different to normal training and have tremendous difficulty controlling their desire to win at any cost. I don’t know about you but this seems like a bad thing to me.

I do not understand how a competition in itself is going to help control anyone's ego. I am assuming you are talking about someone who has a bruised ego but what I see lacking with that train of thought is that there are no guarantees of how this would work for the entire dojo rather than just one individual.

sean dixie
23rd June 2003, 13:15
I think everything you have talked about as regards the risk taking etc is there already in the randori we practice within our dojos. I have met some exceptional exponants of randori from your own dojo which is only to be expected from a students of Jee Sensei. You only have to take a trip to Mizuno Sensei's class on a Saturday if you want to put on some pads/mits(Jason will be happy to lend you some from kinteki.com)And get right down to some serious fast and hard randori. Randori is an inherant part of Shorinji Kempo is should be taken and practiced seriously in order to give yourself a better understanding of atemi,sen,ma-ai,heiji shin and every other aspect of Shorinji relating to immediate self defense. For this training do we really need inter-dojo sparring matches? Can we not get these things from our own dojo's? I also remember some of these events from the early days, while generally good natured, as the rounds went on you could see the kenshi getting more and more excited as their dojo friends went out to do battle against a rival dojo- this I feel goes against what Shorinji Kempo stands for-shouldn't we all be united? Trying in our own small way to make an ideal world?

Incidentally I spent some time a few years ago training in Tokyo University- run by Senada Sensei-a good friend of Mizuno Sensei. The Wednesday evening class was three/four hours of solid randori! Three minute bouts called out by someone on the side. Everybody in the best protective kit(the new Shorinji headguards had just been released and were being put through their paces)At yamai all would stop and swop partner or just sit out if they felt like doing so and then the training would resume again. Senior grades would take time out to monitor kyu kenshi and the atmoshere was amazing. About an hour into training some of the university Kokoshin students joined in the training! Apparantly this kind of inter-style training was common. I practiced with one of these guys, at Hajime I swear the guy didn't move! As I got up I looked behind me for his mate who must have kicked me! No, he really just was that fast!- Mawashi Geri to the neck! Wouldn't this kind of training run by individual dojos be a better way forward?

David Dunn
23rd June 2003, 14:03
Cheung, I am not sure there is a ban as such. I seem to recall Cailey saying that there were randori competitions, categorised by weight, near where he stayed. In any case Mizuno Sensei is not against randori competitions as such. There have been some in recent years.

FWIW, I am dead against randori competitions. I think that they run counter to the spirit of otegai renshu. I don't think that they improve your randori either - that occurs by using carefully designed gentei randori exercises. Moreover, they always favour the bigger person (say where similar grades are matched). You cannot avoid this unless you ban no techniques. That means the very people who can benefit most from Shorinji Kempo are put at a disadvantage from the outset. I can't see how it can be a good idea.

jonboy
23rd June 2003, 14:21
I am also against randori competition and believe all beneficial aspects of it should be obtainable in regular classes. For this reason I voted 'No' on the poll.

However, surely if there were competitions, nobody would force an individual to fight and in fact it is part of our training that should enable us to make that decision ourselves. As long as the situation is contemplated fully, it is decisions like that that will make us leaders, which ever way we answer.

This then turns into a practical consideration. Would there be enough participants to make the effort of organising a competition worthwhile? Maybe the poll will tell.

cheunglo
23rd June 2003, 14:46
Since this is also a form of risk taking I cannot understand how peer pressure comes into play. In fact, peer pressure probably does more to suppress leaders than to raise them.
I agree with you that peer pressure suppresses rather than encourage leadership. The connection that I am making however, is the same thing as you pointed out, leaders need to take risks and therefore need to practice it. The additional thing I am saying is that learning risk-taking should be part of Shorinji Kempo.


I do not understand how a competition in itself is going to help control anyone's ego. I am assuming you are talking about someone who has a bruised ego but what I see lacking with that train of thought is that there are no guarantees of how this would work for the entire dojo rather than just one individual.
Ego becomes a factor when an individual differentiates between intra and inter dojo randori. The goal that I am seeking is that there is no difference. Both should be seen as a normal part of training. Whether you are senior or junior, the overriding principle is: “To respect our elders and not slight the young.”


You only have to take a trip to Mizuno Sensei's class on a Saturday if you want to put on some pads/mits(Jason will be happy to lend you some from kinteki.com)And get right down to some serious fast and hard randori.
Doing it this way would aggravate the problem. Informal approaches could be mistaken for open challenges or in some other way, misunderstood. Would it not be better initially to formalise the rules so that the boundaries and objectives are clear and common? Once, the culture has been accepted and is the norm, then certainly, what you suggest could be workable. Until then, I don’t think it would be wise. Around 1988, I challenged Brixton Dojo, on behave of Abbey Dojo, to a game of softball. Until I said “softball” however, I could see the potential for misunderstanding. As it was, it was a great summers’ day outing and a good time was had by all.


I also remember some of these events from the early days, while generally good natured, as the rounds went on you could see the kenshi getting more and more excited as their dojo friends went out to do battle against a rival dojo- this I feel goes against what Shorinji Kempo stands for-shouldn't we all be united?
This is exactly the problem that I was eluding to in point 5 above. However, instead of avoiding the problem, I am suggesting that we try to solve it. Inter-dojo randori should NOT be different to intra-dojo randori. The problem only gets worse if it is banned. Remember prohibition?


As I got up I looked behind me for his mate who must have kicked me! No, he really just was that fast!- Mawashi Geri to the neck! Wouldn't this kind of training run by individual dojos be a better way forward?
I would stand up and applaud if the circumstances in the UK would allow us to cross-train like this with no egos involved. Unfortunately, it is not like this at present. I am, however, suggesting the most logical step in this direction which is just Shorinji Kempo inter-dojo randori.

cheunglo
23rd June 2003, 16:32
However, surely if there were competitions, nobody would force an individual to fight and in fact it is part of our training that should enable us to make that decision ourselves.
Personally, I agree. Never again, will I wholeheartedly volunteer for randori. For one thing, I am pushing 40 and these days, I’d rather sit in my favourite armchair than do any kind of exercise, let alone, randori. However, that’s by the by. On the whole, I assume that the people with the strongest views are those who have had the opportunity to participate in inter-dojo or inter-style randori. You and I have had the experience that allows us to make up our own minds. However, randori experience is not something that can be taught by word-of-mouth. It needs to be experienced by each indiviidual. I am making this argument for the benefit of current and future generations who will have a narrower breadth of experience than those of us who started fifteen, twenty or thirty years ago. Empowerment means giving individuals the skills and assets that will help them make decisions for themselves, not to re-iterate what they have been told. The responsibility of teachers is to make a safe environment for younger generations to make mistakes whilst they learn.

John McCollum
23rd June 2003, 17:09
I voted "no" for this poll, but not primarily for any of the reasons listed above....

"Competitive Randori" has always seemed to me to be a bit oxymoronic. To me, randori is as inherently co-operative as embu practice. When I'm practicing randori, I might aim a combination of 4 or 5 attacks towards my partner before s/he manages a successful defense/counter-attack. In essence, I'm setting my partner a problem, after which s/he must find an answer. To me, it's should be more like unscripted (messy;) ) embu than the points sparring you so often see in other martial arts. Whenever I've formally been taught randori, the emphasis has been on co-operative practice rather than competitive.



Many of the younger shodans now have no experience of randori competitions


I would include myself in this category, having been a shodan for almost two years. Not only have I no experience of randori competitions, but I have no idea how to do randori competitively. I'd call that "sparring" personally.

What does everyone else think? Can someone what good "competetive randori" should be like?

David Dunn
23rd June 2003, 18:26
What does everyone else think? Can someone what good "competetive randori" should be like?

Rare in my opinion. About once a week after training in Brixton dojo, with a timekeeper, and Sensei telling you what you're doing wrong. :D

Seriously, I think it should be done with do's and mitts (I don't agree with headguards), and with third parties to observe and comment. If you do it time and again, those people start to recognise your mistakes and they'll shout out as you make them. So really it's 'hard' randori, as opposed to competitive. There is still an element of co-operation. It's also outside the formal class time, so it's optional.

Tripitaka of AA
23rd June 2003, 19:55
It is a very long time since I took part in randori... intra-dojo, inter-dojo or even inter-city (those on-train encounters can play hell with your balance):)... but the memories linger.

The randori element of Shorinji Kempo training was my least favourite and my biggest weakness (feel free to disagree if your memory is long enough to have evidence of my greater shortcomings). Consequently, whenever I could, I would try to watch/participate in randori at whatever club I frequented. I hoped that by seeing many many people doing it, I might discover the MAGIC technique, or the SECRET combination that would make me invincible.

I think the "old days" that are referred to, probably include my era. I remember Randori competitions at Taikai and Gasshuku (I think I do!) and remember dreading them all. Fear of injury, fear of embarassment, fear of failure... all played a part. But the most obvious result of any Randori Competition was the new friendships and new relationships that had been formed.

The mixing of Kenshi from different clubs is a great advantage that the BSKF can provide. A strong organisation that sometimes feels like an extended family of branches. What better way to get together than by a friendly bit of rivalry that encourages Dojo to work together as teams.

I'm rambling. I voted YES, although I have no right to involve myself. I don't think inter-dojo Embu competitions work without the major preparation of a Taikai, but a Randori competition can be cobbled together with even the bare minimum in attendance.

cheunglo
24th June 2003, 09:01
What does everyone else think? Can someone what good "competetive randori" should be like?
I do not want BSKF shodans to have to ask “what good competitive randori should be like?” Further, it is irrelevant whether an individual likes or dislikes it or whether he/she is good or bad at it. What is relevant is that everyone gets to have the experience to decide for themselves. The shodans of today will be the instructors of tomorrow. I feel that I have an obligation, to at least try, to ensure that they have the skills that they will need when that day comes.

MikeCarew
24th June 2003, 09:22
This can be a touchy subject. I can recall a randori competition quite well in Brixton. I was competing and during my fight (word chosen carefully) I received a blow to the nose and proceeded to bleed. The red mist came down and my opponent next found himself several feet outside the ring on his back as a result of a technique that has nothing to do with the martial arts but very much more to do with contact sports. I also recall the look of disgust on Sensi Mizuno's face.

This is what can be wrong with randori competitions. Fortunately there is also a good side. The two of us managed to laugh about our deserved disqualifications together with harmony.

Formal randori competitions clearly up the ante. The stress is higher and so is the desire to win. This can have both plus and minux effects as has been pointed out. I will vote in favour of these competitions in general because life is competative and we must learn to deal with it. This doesn't mean we will get it right the first time out. It does mean that we learn our lessons and make our mistakes in a controlled environment.

I must admit I enjoyed these competitions and they teach some great lessons when you are up against someone who is clearly more skillful than you are.

Mike

Tripitaka of AA
24th June 2003, 10:10
Hi Cheung Lo

My earlier reply made reference to my "likes or dislikes ... good or bad at it", in order to make it clear that even as a non-fan, I still support your proposal.

There are many lessons to be learned, as you wisely point out. As Mike has described, the lessons learned from the "Dark Side" are just as positive. You are right to point out that ignorance of a subject is dangerous. Randori during class is different from competition. Some of the differences can be quite surprising. Understanding the differences can be valuable.

One lesson; you get a chance to sit back and watch people that you may never have seen before. You get to assess their skills, anticipate their movements and watch how their opponent deals with them. It is a chance to "see" things that wouldn't be so clear during a class where everyone is familiar.

Another Lesson; You get to see people from other clubs using the same techniques. You watch as different folk from Club B all try the same combination, with varying degrees of success. You try to work out strategy. You look at spirit, and see how confidence and aggression affect the outcome.

MikeCarew
24th June 2003, 10:26
One thought I have on this is that we always discuss budo in our dojo's from the point of being the person who is in control of a situation, which can mean from the viewpoint of the winner. Now I know that losing means you are dead, but lets assume that you have come off the worse in some street or such situation, but have been provided with the ability to live another day. You still have an obligation to search for harmony in this situation. In fact this can be more difficult than from the other end of the situation because you must resist the temptation to simply retaliate, as I well know.



Personally, I agree. Never again, will I wholeheartedly volunteer for randori. For one thing, I am pushing 40 and these days, I'd rather sit in my favourite armchair than do any kind of exercise, let alone, randori.


Cheung, what is this weak excuse about age. approaching 40 is young. At no time should you think that you are ready for the arm chair and that the remote control is your main form of training. Now that is death.

Mike

David Dunn
24th June 2003, 12:30
On page 30 of Fukudokuhon is the following subsection.


Follow the guidelines of practising randori in the spirit of Kongo Zen

Success of failure to protect yourself in randori are key experiences to learn from. However, as Kaiso often stressed you should not pursue championship style randori matches which pursue the goal of winning a game. Randori practice with protective gear only allows a limited exploration of your flaws and over-emphasizing it produces bad habits. The leadership of Shorinji Kempo is opposed to practice plans and tournament competitions which place primary emphasis on randori.

There are several limitations imposed by the use of protective gear... This turning of training into a game of tag ignores the full teachings and techniques of Shorinji Kempo.

Tournament competition also encourages poor goals by stimulating the desire to fight for victory over an opponent. The more one concetrates on beating an opponent the more one forgets to train to win out over oneself. Kaiso gave us clear guidance in this when he said "a person who challenges others merely to show off his strength, or only to seek approval and applause by winning competitions has no place in a society based on cooperation and mutual benefit."

Shorinji Kempo training is founded on the ideal of jita kyoraku (enjoying things with others). and we emphasize training together, enjoying fellowship and helping one another make progress in Kongo Zen. Any practice which gives priority to randori or stresses wiining as competition as the purpose of practice has missed this vital principle of Shorinji Kempo.

I know what competition randori is like. It always results in frayed tempers, bloody noses or worse, awful techniques and a crowd that is exhoring one kenshi to 'go on smack him' about another kenshi. In one competition I took part in, my opponent (that is the right word, not partner) did not even have the courtesy to make gassho rei prior to shinpan saying 'hajime', nor after each point. That is tantamount to saying 'I don't care what happens to you, there is no contract of trust here'.

I thoroughly believe that the lessons of randori are far better learned in a cooperative environment, even if the randori is with protective gear. In case it sounds like I'm against randori per se, let me say I am not, and I think it should always be part of kihon in some respect.

Anyway, good thread. I was writing an article on randori when Cheung posted the poll. It's not about competitive randori, which is very contentious. Why don't two people have a written debate on it on the bskf website. Each one writes the case for or against, and then has a chance to answer the other person.

cheunglo
24th June 2003, 17:22
My earlier reply made reference to my "likes or dislikes ... good or bad at it", in order to make it clear that even as a non-fan, I still support your proposal.
Gassho David (Noble)

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to get at you. Please, let me try to re-phrase…

There are things where the final destination is more important than the journey. When you take a holiday, for example, being at your resort is more important than how you travelled there. The opposite is true however, for randori. With randori, the journey is more important than the destination. Whether you arrive at the conclusion that you like/dislike/can/can’t do it, the valuable thing is the voyage - the process of getting there based upon your own experiences.


I know what competition randori is like. It always results in frayed tempers, bloody noses or worse, awful techniques and a crowd that is exhoring one kenshi to 'go on smack him' about another kenshi. In one competition I took part in, my opponent (that is the right word, not partner) did not even have the courtesy to make gassho rei prior to shinpan saying 'hajime', nor after each point. That is tantamount to saying 'I don't care what happens to you, there is no contract of trust here'.
Gassho David (Dunn)

To our collective shame, this has happened. However, the solution is not to run away – where does it say that in the teachings of Doshin So? The experience of Tokyo University outlined by Sean Dixie proves that it can be different. Why can’t we have that here?


However, as Kaiso often stressed you should not pursue championship style randori matches which pursue the goal of winning a game.
If anyone got the impression that I was advocating championship style randori, then my sincerest apologies. The best randori competition I have ever participated in was at the Scout Hut in Harrow. There we just turned up and Sensei Mizuno allocated the teams without reference to origins. I believe I partnered with Steve Williams (Steve, can you verify?) There was no dojo loyalties nor braying for blood. There was a healthy tension between different teams but at no point was there animosity. This is the ideal that I would like to see rekindled.

David Dunn
24th June 2003, 18:08
Cheung, it sounds like you want hard randori with protectors, rather than competition as such. In which case what Brixton kenshi do after their Saturday class is just that. I'm just failing to see what making it scoring/having teams would add to it.

I do agree that it isn't a matter of whether or not you like randori. It is a part of training, and if you approach it properly you can learn what it is meant to teach you. The important point is how to introduce randori to beginners who may at first fear it, but that's a separate issue.

cheunglo
24th June 2003, 19:03
Gassho David.

No, I am not after hard randori with protectors. Since I am not conveying the message with my own words, I am going to borrow a small passage from a novel written by David Gemmel to try and explain what scored randori provides above practice randori. Please forgive the melodrama.

‘Tell me about fear,’ she said.
He walked away from her and stooped to lift a pebble.
‘Catch this,’ he said, flicking the stone towards her. Her hand snaked out and she caught the pebble deftly. ‘That was easy, was it not?’
‘Yes,’ she admitted.
‘Now if I had Krylla and Miriel here, and two men had knives at their throats and you were told that if you missed the pebble they would die, would it still be easy to catch? Think of those times in your life when you were nervous and your movements became disjointed. Fear makes fools of us all. So too does anger, rage and excitement. And then we move too fast and there is no control. You follow me?’
‘I think so. When I had to give my first performance before the King in Drenan, I froze. All I had to do was walk across the stage, but my legs felt as if they carved from wood.’
‘That is it. Exactly! The onset of fear makes the simplest of actions complex and difficult. No more so than when we fight… and I can fight better than most because I can bring all my concentration to bear on the small things. The pebble remains a pebble, no matter what hangs upon success or failure.’

Randori should be randori, regardless of whether it is intra or inter-dojo. Jun zuki should be jun zuki, regardless of whether it is performed in Kihon or in actual self defence. Atemi should be atemi, no matter what hangs upon success or failure. As Mike said…

Formal randori competitions clearly up the ante. The stress is higher and so is the desire to win.

Fear and desire are the real enemies in randori. These are the adversaries that we need to confront.

John McCollum
24th June 2003, 21:03
Gassho all!



I do not want BSKF shodans to have to ask “what good competitive randori should be like?”


There is a good reason for my asking. Whenever I've seen even remotely competitive randoori, the level of technique seems to plummet. Shorinji Kempo is designed to be a defensive martial art and we spend 90% of our training time practicing defenses of some kind or other. As martial artists, we are great at defending but generally comparatively awful in attack. So what happens when you have two people with superb defences sparring? Neither person commits to throwing more than a cagey jun zuki, knowing that experimentation will likely lead to failure.

With co-operative randoori, I'll put together a combination fully expecting to be pummelled at the end of it. No big deal, gassho rei, throw another combination or invite your partner to attack. As soon as ego comes into it ("I don't want to get hit!"), you start to see the above situation develop. At least that's my 2p, and my experience with it all.

My question still stands: what does good competetive randoori look like? Perhaps Cheunglo would rather nobody had to ask this, but since it isn't being taught, I have to!

Tripitaka of AA
24th June 2003, 21:29
Originally posted by David Dunn
Why don't two people have a written debate on it on the bskf website. Each one writes the case for or against, and then has a chance to answer the other person.

It would make interesting reading, I'm sure. In older threads on this site, there are similar debates about randori... that elicited some very persuasive arguments. Eloquent structures of logic and reasoning to appeal to the heart and the mind.

In some ways that causes a problem. People who can think up brilliant essays and successful argument will usually come from the pool of society that has no need of physical violence... often finding competitive violence to be abhorrent... and consequently supporting the restriction of competitve randori.

Whilst neanderthal thugs like me, who run out of words and get physical in times of despair, cannot cobble together reasonable justification for randori competitions that doesn't end up, err... thuggish and neanderthal...ughh.

Organisers of such debate would be wise to consider swapping the representatives over, so they had to reason against their normal positions (often a good ploy for debating groups).

tony leith
24th June 2003, 22:34
A few days not looking at e-budo, and this is what I miss. Apologies if this seems a bit of a forlorn echo of earlier posts, but I feel quite strongly about this. For me the most unpleasant aspect of inter dojo randori isn't even necessarily what goes on between the participants, it's the attitude of the spectators - the sight of kenshi baying for each other's blood is not edifying (see Orwell on representative sport as a thinly disguised surrogate for war). I agree with Sean that if you want to do hard sparring type randori it's perfectly possible to do it in the context of your own dojo. If inter dojo 'competitions' were to be contemplated, the first thing I would do is allocate people randomly to teams to obviate this kind of nonsense.

I also disagree that sparring is necessarily a better preparation for actual combat than randori - in randori with a partner I can trust and who trusts me, anything goes, no rules, no restrictions. The fact that neither of us will tend to emerge from the experience requiring medical treatment is to my mind a good thing...

Tony leith

Gary Dolce
24th June 2003, 22:44
Gassho Cheung,

I think your arguments are becoming contradictory. On the one hand, you believe that "formal randori competitions up the ante" of fear and stress and the desire to win and that this is a good thing because it makes things harder. On the other hand, you want the randori in these competions to be no different than any other randori, with no dojo loyalties (or rivalries) and no "braying for blood". In other words, you want the competitions to exclude the very factors that create fear, stress, and the desire to win.

I don't believe you can have it both ways. Once you change randori from yet another training exercise to a competition, you have to be willing to accept all the baggage that goes with it - including those negative things. Personally, I don't think it is worth it.

As for the arguments that competition is a part of life, etc. - I don't see the compelling argument to make Shorinji Kempo exactly like every other part of life. We all have plenty of other outlets for competition if that is what we are interested in.

Competitive randori teaches risk-taking and builds better leaders? Following that argument, maybe we should choose our leaders from the ranks of professional boxers. Mike Tyson anyone? I have learned a lot about leadership practicing Shorinji Kempo and none of it occurred at the randori competition I attended - unless it was some examples of bad leadership.

There are people who believe that Shorinji Kempo needs competive randori to grow. I say let's be real leaders and risk takers by showing the world that you can attract students by teaching serious and effective self defense in an atmosphere that promotes spiritual growth without following the path that so many other martial arts have chosen.

David Dunn
24th June 2003, 23:00
Gassho Cheung,
I think that I know what you're aiming for. I hope I don't make a straw man to knock down.

It is simply impossible to create a 'real' situation in the dojo, unless you say to your partner `try to kill or maim me with any attack you want,' or something like full-on randori with a sharpened tanto. I don't think that anyone would advocate such training, a point which you alluded to in your original post. Another alternative is to go out and start fights.

So, randori is necessarily limited in the sense that it can't be a real fight. I think that you're saying that by having the element of competition you create a bit more of a 'real' situation. It might be the case, and it might very well test who has heijo shin, who appreciates best the ebb and flow of kyo/jitsu and can seize their opportunities. That person will probably be the one that adopts the defensive frame of mind, as John suggests, who never attacks. What if both people just stand there?

To my mind you have to practice the realism of powerful attacks in hokei and gentei randori, and the realism of reading a chaotic situation in randori, less limited, but more controlled. Both of these exercises require heijo shin. I would argue that you can never really reproduce the realism of power, chaos and intent all in one go.

David Dunn
24th June 2003, 23:07
Originally posted by cheunglo
If anyone got the impression that I was advocating championship style randori, then my sincerest apologies.

ps - Cheung I didn't mean to suggest you were, I simply quoted that section of Fukudokuhon almost verbatim.

Eastwood
25th June 2003, 06:37
Gassho Cheung,

I gather from the David Gemmel quote some sense of the kind of training you're talking about. Clearly, its a kind of high level training in making body and spirit work together, and that implies two things.

First, most people are likely to miss the point of the practice. When I read in another post that Mizuno Sensei made randori teams irrespective of branch origin at a camp in the past, I take it he did that to specifically suppress inter-branch competition. Or to see it from another angle, the act seems to recognize that most people do get caught up in the drama of how well their friends and acquaintances will do, even if for the best of reasons. So, instituting inter-dojo competitions would distract people from the work of integrating both body and spirit in their training - translation, they would get caught up in winning and losing.

Second, for the few people who might be ready for it, whether or not they are ready seems a delicate matter best worked out in the environment of one's own dojo with one's own teachers and seniors. If that is impractical, then someone recognized by all as a hanshi, such as Mizuno Sensei, might create a small community for the purpose, and again this would not be an inter-dojo round robin, but a small community convened for specific individuals. I can imagine that you really only needs a few experiences of this to grasp how easily little things can spell doom, little preventable distractions.

If the problem is simply technical ability, then you're right back to regular randori in the dojo. Nothing more required.

I can say as a taller person, 192 centimeters, that when I tried sparring at other dojo in my 20s, it was never just a matter of technique for me and my opponents, but always winning and losing hung in the air. I can say I learned a lot from it, but it was a lot more about diplomacy (and, I confess, concentration in the face of the competitive distractions) than technique.

I am not voting because I'm not part of BSKF, but I can't emphasize strongly enough how corrosive I imagine regularized inter-dojo randori competitions would be. Remember the picture of the Indian and Chinese monks enjoying their practice together on the Hekiga at the Shaolin Temple? I imagine it was fun because they knew each other well, and because they challenged each other in the way we do in embu and hokei practice. How about taking the same desire to train at the highest levels and feed that into randori with our dojo partners?

Kesshu

cheunglo
25th June 2003, 09:04
I think your arguments are becoming contradictory.
Gassho Gary

Where we are and where I would like to see us get to are indeed contrary. If we were to start inter-dojo randori today where we will start from is…


Formal randori competitions clearly up the ante. The stress is higher and so is the desire to win.
Where I would like to see us get to is…


The pebble remains a pebble, no matter what hangs upon success or failure.

The goal that I am after is for kenshi to feel rising stress levels, excitement, anger, desire etc but still be able to control their thoughts and actions. Higher stress levels can be provoked by hard no-holds-barred sparring BUT let me make this perfectly clear, I believe that this is extremely dangerous and counter to any Shorinji Kempo philosophy. The problem remains, however, how do you provoke higher stress levels but maintain a safe environment?


For me the most unpleasant aspect of inter dojo randori isn't even necessarily what goes on between the participants, it's the attitude of the spectators
Gassho Tony

I couldn’t agree with you more. What are the spectators for? They do no good for the participants. I don’t think they do any good for themselves. Why have them?


My question still stands: what does good competetive randoori look like?
Gassho John

Peversely, it should look like a normal but energetic training session. The difference should be the internal struggle to make it no different to any other practice.


I am not voting because I'm not part of BSKF
Gassho Michael

My intention was that any WSKO kenshi could participate in the voting.

Kimpatsu
25th June 2003, 09:10
Gassho.
Cheung Lo remembers correctly the makeup of those randori competitions; I remember doing them three to a team, and being partnered with James Yeo from Danceworks and someone from the south coast, facing off against Slavek, who was from the same branch as myself: Brixton. So, no inter-branch rivalry there.
Kesshu.
PS: I voted in favour of a return of such randori in the poll.

cheunglo
25th June 2003, 10:02
In other words, you want the competitions to exclude the very factors that create fear, stress, and the desire to win.
Gassho Gary

I do not want competitions to exclude these factors. I want us as individual kenshi to overcome these factors.


I don't believe you can have it both ways.
You may be right. I hope not. Even if you are right, I think the journey itself will be worth it.


Second, for the few people who might be ready for it…
Gassho Michael

I don’t think controlling your own emotions is related to rank. Fear, anger, jealousy, hate, gluttony, sloth and pride affects us all from the first day of conscious intelligence to the last day. I am not sure that any prerequisite training is necessary to start dealing with these issues.

cheunglo
25th June 2003, 11:25
Competitive randori teaches risk-taking and builds better leaders? Following that argument, maybe we should choose our leaders from the ranks of professional boxers. Mike Tyson anyone?
Gassho Gary

Risk-taking is not limited to hostile engagements. Everytime you make a decision based on limited information you take a risk. When you decide to court someone you like, you take a risk. When you decide to write a contentious treatise, you take a risk. The main difference that randori offers is the immediate feedback loop. You get to know immediately the outcome of your decision. This is more valuable in a training tool than having to wait for a week to know the results.

The question has been asked “Of what value is martial arts to the modern world?” Well, I am making a direct connection.

cheunglo
25th June 2003, 11:48
I have learned a lot about leadership practicing Shorinji Kempo and none of it occurred at the randori competition I attended - unless it was some examples of bad leadership.
No arguments from me. Possibly, the only difference is that I have participated in well lead randori competitions, though admittedly, not in the last decade. Why don’t we change things and make it what it should be?

Tripitaka of AA
25th June 2003, 12:02
Cheung Lo, a word to the wise. Despite the obvious interest in this thread and the poll, we must all be aware that the decision on whether to re-introduce inter-club competition is one for Mizuno Sensei and possibly the Technical Committee. Gathering opinion like this has a place, but must not be mistaken for a referendum. The BSKF, while striving to be fair and open, is NOT a democratic institution. It can be considered a lack of appropriate etiquette, to bring pressure on the Chief Instructor to change a decision in such a public way. Not a Japanese way to do things. If you really want to influence the future, it is worth understanding the past. Or... always study the terrain of the battlefield before starting the charge…:)


I rather liked the inter-club Softball matches :D I got to meet new Kenshi and see them in action, instead of standing behind them. Same thing with the Randori. Not such a biggie really.

MikeCarew
25th June 2003, 12:03
This seems to be reaching some kind of a catch 22. The reason most people do not like competative randori is due to the negative qualities that it can tend to expose, including those expressed by the onlookers. On the other hand it is exactly these qualities that we are attempting to control through training.

There is no doubt that competative randori can become ugly, since technique can degenerate rapidly. Why? I think that this is a situation in which "calm mind in action" is all about, but is rarely applied to.

I can also say that competitions take a while to get right in terms of attitude. There will be a learning curve before we get what we are trying to achieve. Competative randori should still be about learning, but in a different way than randori in our dojo's.

This is a difficult one. Can you imagine a set of rules through which individuals are banned from competition? or suspended?

Mike Carew

sean dixie
25th June 2003, 15:27
Hi All,
Well we at Mayfair dojo had a very interesting and pertinant Howa session last night with Mizuno Sensei. Having just returned from a two week session of meetings with WSKO, as usual he gave us a brief as to what is happening from Japan. After complaining that they kept making(?)him drink beer to dispel the heat of the Japanese summer he said that one of the main topics was that of randori competions. Apparently Indonesia has never stopped having inter-dojo competitions and the Swedish fedaration has asked if they are the only ones allowed or if any fedaration can organise them. The main jist of it was that to compete in randori in Indonesia you must also enter Embu as well. They have weight divisions, proper Karate tournament mats, at least two doctors on site and alerts to the nearest hospitals. WSKO is in serious debate on whether to allow Fedarations to organise their own competions, and what rules to lay down for their implementation. Sensei even mentioned drug testing!

Anyway I've had my say on the debate, just thought that that information might add some more flavour to this thread!

Tripitaka of AA
25th June 2003, 15:48
So (apart from Indonesia), this is WSKO-wide... not much that a handful of E-Budo members are likely to change then. But an interesting topic nonetheless.

Doctors, Hospitals, weight-divisions... all a far cry from the Scout Hut in Hendon, isn't it! But then, safety should be taken into consideration before something bad happens, not after.

Somehow, all those precautions make the whole thing sound more like a tournament/championship/bloodfest than ever. Informal and friendly has to be the way to go, surely. Indonesia is a massive federation isn't it? Meaning; big tournaments, lots of people, lots of injuries (potentially). BSKF would be more like having a few friends round for a cup of tea and a randori session :D.

MikeCarew
25th June 2003, 16:12
Here is a question for those more in the know. When we discuss these competitions are we talking about two or more dojo's getting together for a competition, or are we discussing a formal competition from which regional or such champions can emerge. I can see the need for testing and the other precautions for the contest for a regional champion, but not for an occasional dojo v dojo contest. In fact I believe there is a wide gap here.

Any thoughts on this?

Steve Williams
25th June 2003, 17:27
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
all a far cry from the Scout Hut in Hendon, isn't it

That has brought back some really happy (and mostly painfull and cold) memories ;) :D :D

cheunglo
25th June 2003, 18:32
Gassho

I tried to sit down and compose my arguments against tournament style randori contests – all about how personal development is replaced by a ruthless ambition to become champion - but found I could not begin to find the words. Tournament style randori goes against the grain of all the values and ideals I have adopted from Shorinji Kempo. I cannot see what good comes out of it.

David Dunn
25th June 2003, 20:24
Originally posted by cheunglo
Tournament style randori goes against the grain of all the values and ideals I have adopted from Shorinji Kempo. I cannot see what good comes out of it.

Hear hear, Cheung. Kaiso said Shorinji Kempo is not a sport. What is the rationale for Indonesia having these tournaments? Surely we'd start to attract the type of people who like tournament fighting, training would be geared to winning tournaments. The dojo would no longer be a dojo, but a club. I cannot see what good comes out of it.

hwijaya
26th June 2003, 05:29
Gassho:

When I was in Indonesia many years ago, we had a regular inter-dojo competition both randori and embu, and also SK was and is actively participate in a national sports even.

During training we also practice randori, usually after kihon, learning juho & goho techniques. We used boxing gloves and body protector. However, we learned to control our punches to the head to avoid injury (not full power).

My sensei said that we learn about the distance, self control (not to hurt your fellow kenshi), feel what's it like when our kicks hit the target (we still used that hard shell body protector), and how to practice what we did in kihon to real moving target.

My personal experience when I first did the randori was that my feet trembles and suddenly I couldn't move my feet and hands like I used to do when I punch and kick in the air. But gradually I could control my self.

Regards,
Johannes H. Wijaya

cheunglo
26th June 2003, 09:21
Surely we'd start to attract the type of people who like tournament fighting, training would be geared to winning tournaments. The dojo would no longer be a dojo, but a club.
Gassho David

I am not sure that attracting people who like tournament fighting is necessarily a bad thing as this will not, by itself, change things so that training will be geared towards winning tournaments. My main objection to tournament style contests is the emergence of champions. For what purpose does it serve to direct effort to an affair whose primary purpose is to produce a single champion above all others?

This is not to say that tournaments and champions have no place in our society. The Olympic Games have, in general, been a force for good. What I am saying, is that tournaments and champions (for there own sake) have no place, that I can see, in Shorinji Kempo philosophy.

Eastwood
26th June 2003, 23:20
Originally posted by cheunglo

I don’t think controlling your own emotions is related to rank. Fear, anger, jealousy, hate, gluttony, sloth and pride affects us all from the first day of conscious intelligence to the last day. I am not sure that any prerequisite training is necessary to start dealing with these issues.

Gassho Cheung,
I should be more clear.

I assumed that you were interested in inter-dojo randori because intra-dojo randori no longer sparked in your spirit the same risks of fear, anger, jealousy, hate, gluttony, sloth, and pride as it once did when you began randori training in the dojo. I assumed the matter under consideration was that you (and most people who have gotten much better over time) needed to heighten the stimulus in order to intensify the training. [I don't identify because I never got to the point where NONE of my seniors could put a good scare into me - and I imagine there were a few more I just wasn't smart enough to be scared of.] Thus, I used rank as a stand-in for this progression in time and experience. Rank is not the essence, degree of challenge is.

What I propose is that any desired increase of stimulus could in most cases be achieved by asking one's teacher to supervise more intense moments of randori training. If sufficiently stimulus-inducing partners were not available within one's own dojo, that is where I suggest forwarding the request to a recognized authority who could make it clear to all participants that their identity in randori should not be as club members, but as kenshi in training. In either case, if the instructor says no, that means it's not a good idea yet.

What I mean is, I don't think randori should ever be understood as "inter-dojo" randori. It should always be inter-kenshi. And I support any setup that actually makes the kenshi involved see the training for what it's meant to be - between kenshi.

That's where the smiles are.:D