Are you too old for this?

[StanLee]

I was chatting with my sensei down the pub after Sunday practice and he said that there are certain things he would be more cautious of doing because he is no longer in his twenties.

I then later chatted with another friend of mine who has been doing yoga for over 15 years and she has problems with her right hip making the whole of her body unbalanced.

Both talked about having that immortal feeling when they were my age, but come to feel age and training is really taking its toll on their bodies.

I thus pose this question to everyone (even though this thread should be on the health and body forum); how old are you, how long have you been in budo / training and what body problems have you developed as a result of MA. Does that make you feel less confident in your abilities? If you see an incident on the street, and you feel compelled to step in only to think twice because you have a chronic injury?

Oh I know this is a bruce baker type post but it has to be asked for the sake of a lifelong progression in MA.

Stan

:D

[Cady Goldfield]

The good news, is as you age you also refine technique and strategy. By the time you get to geezer status (like some of us), you know how to fight smarter and with less effort. :D

As far as working out, I found that p/k arts take a toll on joints. It's just the nature of the training. When I got into my early 40s, I switched from p/k to classical jujutsu and kenjutsu. Both are easier on the ol' bones (even jj, believe it or not) than karate, and also are more sophisticated and deeper in principle and application. There's enough to learn here to keep me busy (and in one piece) for decades.

[Martin Adil-Smi]

I'm 25 and have been training for some 17 years.

I started in Kickboxing (not Maui Thai!!!) at the age of 8 and took up ju jitsu when I went to university at 18. I've also dabbled here and there along the way.

To be honest I don't have any real grumbles. I take my cod liver oil once a day, and my vit c and multi vitamin. I keep up my cardio with a fair bit of jogging. So no complaints.

The only thing I will say is that at 19 I dabbled in someting called Silat (I haven't really heard much of it in the UK since) for about 6 months. I think it was a combination of a less than charismatic instructor and style that I really wasn't suited to, but I really loathed it.

There was a lot of "conditioning" training, where out joints (especially elbows) were being struck. Needless to say my joints got pretty sore, so I jacked it in. Even today, my right elbow will still give a twinge!

[elder999]

Well, I'm 43, and I've been training since I was 11.

I can't take falls like I used to;I can still take falls-I just have to watch how many I do take. I've been lucky, in that I haven't really gotten a lot of injuries, or anything that's led to chronic problems-yet. I am experiencing a decline in strength, finally, so I'm making adjustments-for the better, technique-wise.I'm also making efforts to stay as strong as I can for as long as I can, and this also reduces the potential for injury, I think.

I won't be taking any flying leaps into a roll over 6 people anytime soon, though...I'll never do that again. Why would I?

[Shitoryu Dude]

The list of injuries is long, though the worst ones a blown out knee in my late 20 (required surgical reconstruction and a grafted tendon), a repeatedly sprained ankle that gets swollen up way too easy, and a lower back that is about as flexible as an oak board (getting rear-ended in traffic too many times).

Most kids in their teens and 20's are one major surgical procedure away from realizing their own mortality. They have no clue as to how good they have it physically and don't realize that in a few short years they will start to have enough accumulated damage to make life a bitch at times. Better start on your vitamins now and ease up on the kumite.

:beer:

[bruceb]

Is that six people huddled side by side or huddled end to end?

I would take that challenge for six people side by side, or three end to end. I might have to use my hands to clear the end to end, like jumping a pummel horse, but then again I am nearly 50 and quite a bit heavier then in my twenties? Give and old guy a break, will ya?

Ah, the invincability of youth!

Get over it! You get one turn, it happens, then it is over. Just like being a child, then a teenager, then a young adult .... the seasons of change, they come and go just like tide and time, day and night. You are who you are in that phase of your life... and then you take that experience .... and move on.

This post .... "Are you too old for this?"..... sounds like someone is afraid to grow old? And ..... those still not over forty haven't got a clue because they are still counting their experience from childhood. Two things wrong with that.

One) You don't get to count any experience below the age of 17 years old, even if it is helpful, doesn't count . Sorry.

Two) Although your health is important up until the age of 30, when the human body is fully grown and begins to mature for the next twenty years, your preliminary introduction to "taking care of your body will end around your late twenties and early thirtys, so don't get all full of yourself because there is a long journey ahead.


Now I don't mean this is a condescending way, but it is the advice of an alumni who trying to get your feet on the ground, your vision in focus, and maybe take that fear or idol worship down a notch so you can focus on who you are and where you are ..... right now, at this moment.

Those old guys are still young .... in their minds that is. It is the body that grows old. The perception of the mind is somewhat clouded in the fact that we, the person that inhabits each human shell, have been in this body a bit longer that those half our age, and so it is with those who are our seniors also. In understanding this, it doesn't mean that we think that we are too old 'for this", but it does mean that we must pay attention to the limits of what this body will do as we grow older as it just doesn't seem to work as good as it used to in our prime twenties.

So, it may be a valid question to ask "Are you too old for this?", but the answer will be different for each person as each person ages differently and has different capabilities at different age levels. Just like the aches and pains experienced when you play a football game, or try to be like you were at 17 but are now ten years older, these pains are the allignment of becoming adjusted to your body as it grows or changes. And they will happen, and you will note the changes as your body grows older, and older, and older ... if you don't go off the deep end and kill yourself, that is?

Oh, yeah. A whole heap of young humans don't grasp the long term relationship of their body and think they can do nearly anything with it, without consequences.

Get your butt into the working class for society for five or six years and put all your sports on the back burner. Try to come back and do them at the ripe old age of 25 years old, and then tell me if .... you are too old to do that? You might be.

It all becomes relative to what you can do.

***********************************************************

And another thing .... what is this Bruce Baker Question?

More fear of asking a question about the human condition?

Well .... get over it. Self maintainence of the human body is not always a practical ideal, nor is it the only option. At some point, the child has to harden its emotional protective walls and grow up. Whether it is in understanding the needs of other individuals to reach out with empathy or antipithy, you gotta learn to deal with the people screwing with your head and your emotions.

Why do you think I say .... the things we most dislike in others are the things we dislike to see in ourselves?

It is because a whole lot of those things we make fun of in other people .... are in our behavior, or in our thoughts. Ain't nobody gonna change you but you, and that starts with recognizing the good things and the bad things that make you a better human being or a bad human being.

Afraid to ask a Bruce Baker question, eh?

Well, you did..... which says a whole lot about standing up for yourself. Good for you.

I hope you can take the jeers and well as the accolades, cause there are usually more jeers than accolades. Just part of human nature. Don't worry. You and they will get over it.

post #997

[StanLee]

Bruce,

I knew I could count on you to give a good reply to my question. Yes, in some ways I do fear growing older. I fear not being able to practice to my full potential. That's just me... my character is a strong one and I will always strive to do the best. But the thought of having had the best of physical health and coping with second best is somewhat alien to me at the moment. I guess that I'll learn to get over it.

Stan:(

[elder999]

Originally posted by StanLee
Yes, in some ways I do fear growing older. I fear not being able to practice to my full potential. That's just me... my character is a strong one and I will always strive to do the best. But the thought of having had the best of physical health and coping with second best is somewhat alien to me at the moment. I guess that I'll learn to get over it.

Stan:(

Relish what you have now, and look forward to growing old.

It beats the alternative, after all...:p

I was in really bad health in my childhood, so my perspective is a little different, but the fact is that right now I'm in great shape, and loving it....

Take a look at Jack LaLanne, and the things he does at his age. I think anybody could wind up like that with a little luck and perseverance.

My original reason for replying to this was that my seniors have basically taken me aside and said that I'm "too old" to take falls for all my students all the time, and should be more judicious about it. There's a few other things I can't or won't do, but I don't miss them.

[Cady Goldfield]

Stan,

Don't fear growing older... fear dying young! ;)

When I was your age, I thought 40+ was the end of the road. Now I "R" one and to be honest, I am fitter and feel better in many ways than I did when I was 22.

Bruce is right about learning to roll with life. Everyone wants to live to a ripe old age - they just don't want to be ripely old. :p

[gendzwil]

I'll be 42 next month, I've been practicing kendo for 20 years and judo for 6 years before that. No serious injuries, currently I have some mild tendonitis in my rotator cuff that isn't affecting my practice.

As you get older you do have to modify your practice. In kendo you move from a hyperactive, twitchy style that relies on speed and reflexes to a more controlled style that involves managing your opponent and forcing him into mistakes. People that don't make that transition don't improve and get injured more easily. We often get Japanese people who have been out of kendo for a decade start up again when life allows - they invariably try to fight like they are still in high school, and we help them adjust their kendo to be more adult. One fellow didn't listen, and got an achilles tendon completely torn for his trouble - he'll walk again, but kendo is out of the question.

[Ian McDonald]

One of my old Aikido instructors, Ed Baker, used to say that you should treat your body carefully but train as vigorously as you can (implying paying attention to the signals your body sends you). The body is like a piece of wire. You can bend it pretty much anyway you want, but if you bend it back and forth, back and forth, the same way repeatedly, it will break. Train for longevity, not for the quick result and you should remain healthy as long as someone else doesn't get you. Other people not paying sufficient attention will cause you greater injury in martial arts than you will likley ever do to yourself. Although I did see a video clip recently of some bone-headed idiot, hope he hasn't bred yet, black belt attempting to break a baseball bat by having one of his stoogents hit him over the head with it. A fine example of an induhvidual for all us DNRC folks to enjoy.:laugh:

[Shitoryu Dude]

Where can get a copy of this video? MUST HAVE!! This ranks right up there with the guy who broke his neck head-butting a car to impress girls.

:beer:

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
The good news, is as you age you also refine technique and strategy. By the time you get to geezer status (like some of us), you know how to fight smarter and with less effort. :D


What worried me when I was a bit younger was, would I reach that refinment before I was too old to get well through the fundamentals.

I looked at the Japanese practicing seven days a week and thought, "Hell I have a lot of catching up to do".

Now at 56 in six weeks time. I am still going at it and slightly more refined. I learned a lot about the timing of things and the value of its not how fast you move but when you move. Fun to watch the others buzzing around like mosquitoes that you swat when they get close.

Also I need those knee supporters to prevent injury. Not wear them after I get injured.

The wifes still only 26. I dont know which will kill me first! Probably neither. One of these days I will probably get too keen to take an underwater shot and end up in the belly of a great white!

Hyakutake Colin

[Cady Goldfield]

Hyaku,

Humility is nice, but if you aren't way more refined and efficient in your movements now than you were back at the beginning, maybe you should forget budo and take up knitting or something. :p

[hobbitbob]

At 36, I find the major pain (pun intended) to be recovery time. Ten years ago I could do three hours of Karate, five nights per week, and still train hard on my own days six and seven. Now I train hard two hours, three night a week, and am almost back to normal when classes roll back around a week later. Periodically one of the younger yudansha leads Advanced class, and the little whippersnapper pushes us through things that would be easy if we were all 23 again, but have us instead gasping for air, and nursing our knees, ankles, and hips afterwords. I can't wait to be around when HE'S 36! :)

[Phil Farmer]

I came to martial arts at age 37 (11 years ago) and my health and fitness have improved steadily over that time. Martial arts injuries are limited to a slightly separated shoulder when I did something I wasn't supposed to and learned a lesson, and a few toes that have been jammed.

I came to martial arts after lengthy time spent in football, baseball, running, triathlons, and cycling. These sports caused a lot more wear and tear on my body than martial arts has. The worst was running 10 marathons and other assorted races. To this day I cannot fully flex my big toes (a small problem on front kicks!). It has taken me ten years of martial arts and yoga to begin to overcome the things these other sports did to my body.

I will agree that the recovery time is the biggest change as you age. Our style does a yearly week long camp with three workouts per day. Needless to say, the 20 somethings love camp a whole lot more than us older guys and gals, but when it comes to technique, the youngsters get worse as they get tired while us older, more senior students seem to get better or at least stay very consistent.

Phil Farmer

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Hyaku,

Humility is nice, but if you aren't way more refined and efficient in your movements now than you were back at the beginning, maybe you should forget budo and take up knitting or something. :p

Grrrrrr:cool: What I meant was there is no refined method of going through the motions of killing someone. Unrefined comments are a give away too!

Hyakutake Colin

[Jock Armstrong]

Children, children...... yes, we old farts have to be a tad more careful. I'm forty two, with 23 years of training [abuse?] and probably worse, 14 years of infantry, which is where my injuries come from- buggered knees and ankles from landing too hard from the back of trucks and choppers. [Try fast roping with a 40lb pack and an M60- you don't bounce!]. I was always a kicker, though I'm big and heavy. My flex is not affected but on a bad day I can't contact anything without damaging myself. I've been turning to hands/grapples/throws more. I also managed to get gout. Yes friends, the rich and decadent disease [I was real clever but- I bypassed the wealth and went straight to the disease!]. That gave me a taste of how helpless you can become. I'm cured now but for around five years fast tai sabaki was out. I had to grab and hold on. Old age is a fiend but I still got me trusty chen Musashi!!!:beer:

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by hyaku


Grrrrrr:cool: What I meant was there is no refined method of going through the motions of killing someone. Unrefined comments are a give away too!

Hyakutake Colin

Ohhhh, but the comments were very refined :)
My reference was only to the physical attainment of efficiency of motion, efficiency of effect -- to the point of sparing one's joints, bones and muscles from the excesses of youthful exhuberance and the beginner's use of inefficient and excessive motion to accomplish each technique.

Yes, the optimum performance in those areas also means optimum refinement in the science of killing... but I in no way was referring to that or refinement of character. That's another department.

Remember, the thread is on aging and can we still practice our arts. I have seen some impressive demonstrations by bujutsuka in their 70s and 80s, and whatever they lack in speed, strength and vigor they make up for with quickness, power and strategy/tactical skill. IOW, they accomplish more with less.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by elder999
Relish what you have now, and look forward to growing old.

It beats the alternative, after all...:p
Immortality? :confused:
I agree with Woody Allen; I don't want to achieve immortality through my work, I want to achieve it by not dying. Preferably with the body of a 20-year-old.

[A. M. Jauregui]

Would it not be sad if one just got older but never died... (Might make a decent Twilight Zone.)

As for the question at hand, so far so good at the age of 27. But a very hard hit from a bokuto to my shoulder has taken about a year to fully heal. I remember when such things would have just taken weeks.

[Cady Goldfield]

Ana, there is an ancient Greek myth about just that -- about a man who asked the gods for immortality, but forgot to ask them for eternal youth to go with it. He eventually shriveled and shrank until he turned into the first cricket. :)

<i>I want to live forever or die in the attempt</i> -- Some Guy

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Remember, the thread is on aging and can we still practice our arts. I have seen some impressive demonstrations by bujutsuka in their 70s and 80s, and whatever they lack in speed, strength and vigor they make up for with quickness, power and strategy/tactical skill. IOW, they accomplish more with less.

Thanks for you very informative answer. Guess I never knew that. I tell my 88 year old teacher. I dont think he knows either.

That gives me another fifteen to try before I take up knitting.

Hyakutake Colin

Hyoho Niten Ichiryu- Kageryu

[Kimpatsu]

I refuse to grow any older. I dread turning (whisper it softly) 40. Let me be eternally young, and eternally youthful.
Highlander!

[A. M. Jauregui]

I knew that sounded familiar, thanks for the memory jog Cady.

[Cady Goldfield]

Colin,
Why wait, then. If I were you, I'd drop budo, take up knitting now and save yourself the aggravation... :rolleyes: ;)

[Cady Goldfield]

Tony,

One matter that people forget, is that the sun is going to go red giant in 5 or 6 billion years. And, the universe is expanding until who knows what. Do you really want to be around then? And what if you are immortal, even with the Earth getting toasted? Eventually, you'd get sucked into a black hole, and what fun would immortality be then?

And even before that, you'd be all by your lonesome when humanity evolves into something else, or goes extinct. I hate it when that happens.

[Kimpatsu]

By the time the Sun goes nova, Cady, I'll have left for another solar system (see "Time Enough for Love" by Robert Heinlein). And I'm such a misanthrope, I look forward to the peace and quiet when humanity has died out! I might even hasten your demise myself! ;)

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Colin,
Why wait, then. If I were you, I'd drop budo, take up knitting now and save yourself the aggravation... :rolleyes: ;)

Its quite funny you should mention knitting though. I graduated in knitting technology before furthering my studies in later years. I was on the team that pioneered the panty-stocking (tights). As result of that 60% of the workers lost there jobs in the Knitwear Industry due to technology.

I could knit you a nice wooly hat to tuck your hair in anytime ;)

Most of the more aged teachers I know that are hacking away at a ripe old age are phsicaly amazing. But it gets to them in other ways. At lot have very bad hearing especially if they have done Kendo. Others can't see so well.

The point that sticks we me most of all is that we should try to set our own steadily increasing age aside to try and look after them. I have already seen a few pass on and its sad to look through the album. They take "so" much with them when they go.

Iwata Norikazu Sensei (90) always buys omiage for the kids and aged only. He always says the middle aged can look after themselves.

Hyakutake Colin

[Cady Goldfield]

I agree that we lose much when one of those old treasures passes on. But, as you imply, that's why we spend our lives trying to learn as much from them as we can to keep the tradition going. Each of us becomes responsible as a "vessel" for transmitting the art -- and also a piece of our own character -- as were our budo ancestors.

There are inevitable consequences of aging, and as has been said, if you want to avoid the alternative path (dying young), then this is just something that we have to deal with as we encounter each indignity. Fortunately, with today's wondrous medical technology, we might be able to forstall any really annoying stuff until we are 90... right??

By then, maybe we'll have paid a fraction of the debt to our teachers. ;)

[Mike Williams]

I saw this biker once - he had the classic patch on the back of his cut-off: "Live fast, die young".

Except he'd crossed out "young" and written "middle-aged" underneath. :D

Cheers,

Mike

[Ian McDonald]

Let us all remember the words of the venerable George Burns. I paraphrase: you can't stay young forever but you can stay forever young at heart. I think that this is really the secret--never let Them beat the kid out of you in spite of their humorless and heavy handed ways. If you can keep your youthful openness about the world's possibilities, not much can stop you and you will cetainly enjoy life in spite of all the tribulations, travails, injuries, and insults. Go out and get a good cheap cigar, right now, for George.

[hobbitbob]

Young at heart I can do, easily. It's young at knees, hips, ankles, shoulders and elbows that seems to take more effort!
:D

[TommyK]

Greetings,

I'll be 53 in December, and I'm still practicing. Sure, I'm heavier, slower and ache a lot more, but I'm smoother and have better technique then I did 10 years ago. Mentally, I just turned 23, so maybe that helps. Its seems I was older than this before, but I'm younger than that now, at least in NYC!

P.S. the ankles, knees, hips and the bad shoulder can be brutal at times, but I almost always feel better the morning after I practice.

Regards, from NYC,
TommyK

[StanLee]

Great insights to how each and everyone's thoughts on training as they age.

But right now I am suffering from a severe stiff neck and my movement is limited to very small circles. BUgger that hurts.

Keep your ideas coming!

Stan

[A. M. Jauregui]

Small circles, only, hmmm... Just give your neck some TLC and look on the bright side - the smaller the circle the better in the aiki arts. ;)

[StanLee]

Cheers ana, but afraid not. Got to get in a car now and drive for about 3hrs to pick up test samples for work.

Oh well, I never check my blind spot anyway (I can't turn my head to the right very wel).

Stan

[Bob van Tuyn]

I'm 24 and have been practising kyokushin for 5 years.

I don’t really have strong knees, but I had that problem before I started training kyokushin. But that doesn’t meen that I don’t feel pain some times. So I’m really glad that we don’t use submission holds on the knees, or on other joints.

I some times hear people complaining about MA (like aikido) were they use holds on joints etc. and the say that you can really bust them up.
Is this a lot of B…sh.t or does it have truth in It??

[StanLee]

Bob,

Joints do get busted if they are forced too heavily. But that doesn't happen that often. One way to prevent this from occuring is to keep a pliant and supple body so that it can absorb and flow with techniques.

Stan

[Bob van Tuyn]

Are there any MA Where you will be more likely to get an injury??

I heard for accemple that Muy Thai boxer are totally busted when the reach 30+